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What playing chess, investing and starting a business have in common: Richard Farleigh #10
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Jan 7, 2025
Many words could be used to describe the life of Richard Farleigh, an Australian private investor who now holds what seems to be the lengthiest of CVs. In short, Farleigh is, without a doubt, a man with a passion for sharing his experiences with others. Today, the self-made entrepreneur sits down with Jennifer Sieg and Emmanuel Nwosu, speaking on all things investments, start-ups, ambition and the future of business. What transferable skills does a game of chess give you in the world of business? Is the founder just as important as the business when it comes to success? Answers to all that and more in this episode of Founder Favourites. Get more of City AM 👇 🌐 http://www.cityam.com X(formerly Twitter): http://twitter.com/CityAM Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cityam Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/city_am LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/cityam Produced by: Jennifer Sieg, Emmanuel Nwosu, Joe Lee, Joseph Curay Teneda #dragonsden #entrepreneur #business #entrepreneurship #businessnews #startup #startuplife #investing
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0:00
you know when I talk to contemporaries of mine you talk about cha BT or something and they're like oh yeah yeah you know you talk to a 20-year-old or a
0:06
10-year-old like they know all about it so you know so rather than sort of uh
0:12
you know I think schools rather than sort of saying forget about this you know don't use it it's it should be a to
0:17
it's a tool that we may just Embrace so instead of if I if I had young kids now I'd be saying instead of saying don't
0:23
use this AI I'd say use it use it you know learn how to use it learn the best
0:28
way to use it you know but as a know but put in what your you can add but use it you know I said to them once and they
0:34
all wear this amazing year and I'm like so they got really good bonuses and I said just so you know and this is I said
0:40
anyone I see you know you know and there's like 15 of them or something anyone I see you know buying a fancy car
0:46
or doing something you know wasting this that's entirely your money but bear in
0:52
mind that I watch what people do and you know it's my respect and you know I'd probably have a lot of respect for you
0:58
if you put a deposit on house or or or put it to you know put it as a sensible investment because you didn't want to
1:04
you know I didn't like these young City guys here I've got a por next year next year
1:09
they lose their job and they've got nothing so I I so they all thank me now I'm friends with them all they all thank me I thanks for not stopping me buying
1:15
the Porsche and making me buy the property I said you get a cool name like Levi roots and uh he go I'm actually
1:20
Keith Gres but I just prefer Levi Roots you know like he's just and and I wrote on my pad I've still got my book I wrot
1:26
on my pad and the stories in the book I wrot it my my pad he is the product not
1:32
the source and when that dawned on me I'm like forget don't worry about his order his Source this guy is amazing so
1:38
so I backed him and then Peter Jones jumps in I'm pointing out because he was on the lift of but he jumps in and and you know and then it became like the
1:44
biggest selling Source in the UK for a [Music]
1:53
while right Richard thank you for joining us we are so excited to speak
1:59
about everything you've accomplished in life and it seems there's it seems like there's quite a long list to be fair so
2:06
um I don't know do you want to kind of just start with telling us a little bit about yourself I'm sure you have that two-minute pitch or something of the
2:12
sort well I'm 64 now so uh that two minutes could be a long time to see not
2:17
long an accomplishment uh yeah I'm Australian okay uh I was born in the
2:23
outback of Victoria state in Australia about uh I don't know 500 miles from uh
2:28
Sydney uh from Melbourne uh I grew up in the care system I was one of 11 children so had quite a deprived uh tough
2:35
childhood yeah one of 11 children we were undernourished and um apparently neglected but you know I was the
2:41
youngest uh of of of eight children at that time and we lived in two tents I me know this sounds like it's made up but
2:48
we lived in two tents my father was a sheep Shearer and we traveled around mostly the east side of Australia up and
2:53
down all the way up and down Australia while he was you know working and then he would often skip town in the middle of the night well the family would you
3:00
know when he with unpaid bills and things like that he was a good worker um but alcoholic and and occasionally
3:06
violent so I was we were because we were undernourished we became you know the focus of authority of the authorities
3:12
and they warned my parents you know quite a bit and then eventually we were taken away and and sent to uh orphanages
3:19
uh or Care Homes uh and then I end up in the care system so I grew up in a foster home so part of the reason I'm doing
3:26
sort of you know I'm sort of writing or thinking now this time of life is also thinking of people who've been in that
3:32
environment because I had you know because of reason I had some success in different things is you know because I
3:38
had people help me in different different times and and and uh but over you know people people helping and a
3:44
little bit of taking advantage of the good things that happened along the way but that's sort of you know over time I've gotten more used to talking about
3:50
that so that's my main focus now is letting people know that it can be okay so I was eventually became a dragon I've
3:56
skipped a bit from there to uh but we'll go back back no worry yeah so you know
4:01
then I I ended up uh you know and I was assessed as backward as a kid and I was you know didn't speak and had sort of
4:06
Behavioral issues but eventually made my way to University and did well at University I became a bit of a a nerd
4:12
you know because I didn't speak so I was into puzzles and then I got into chess and eventually I went uh to UNI and did
4:18
economics and maths uh and did well with that and got a scholarship with the central bank bank of England but in
4:24
Australia um and then I was supposed to do a PhD in economics or maths maybe but
4:29
I gave it up and went into Investment Banking uh and then did investment banking for about 12 years in derivatives and and then in more into
4:36
the trading side ran a hedge fund briefly and then retired as one does at 34 uh moved to
4:43
Monte Carlo and then uh had a couple of years where I didn't do much and then I got a bit bored and then got dragged
4:49
into business and started doing business and then Pro have done 120 startups
4:54
helped you know back and been involved with different degrees uh end up on Dragon 10
5:00
uh so where they portrayed me as sort of a posh kid from you know which I always found a bit strange uh so so now I'm
5:07
kind of correcting the record and saying well you know it's okay to be to be working class and it's okay to come from a you know it's okay if you don't feel
5:13
so good about yourself anyway that's is that more than two minutes I was going to say remember at the beginning and you
5:18
were like well I'm not going to have enough to say for two minutes you have quite a bit it's quite it's quite a story well I don't even know where to
5:25
start I mean we could go through so many different things but when you say you want to make sure it's known that it's
5:31
okay to come from you know a self-made background and working class and that's what you're trying to get across now is
5:36
that something you portray in the startups that you back or what is it that you see in in these startups and why did you end up in business I kind of
5:44
came into business by accident I I did I did something called homehouse which is a private members Club in in London um
5:51
and that was sort of my first foray into business uh because I was a chess player just various connections of chess players and you know I saw this
5:58
beautiful building if people don't know it it's it's a Georgian Masterpiece just near Oxford Street it's 200 and
6:03
something years old it's had an amazing history it's like going into a palace you know the walls are onate you know
6:08
the ceilings are got pictures on you know like the gold leafing a beautiful staircase we restored the building I was
6:14
a main shareholder we restored the building and and two years renovation 12 bedrooms I think you know a bar a
6:20
restaurant a gym you know beautiful drawing rooms to sit and have glass of wine or a cup of coffee or whatever just
6:26
an amazing building and that that that was kind of my first forand of business and I did that because I just thought it was such a beautiful building and also
6:34
uh that that has a very casual dress code uh which at the time this was mid 90s but back then you'd come to London
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and I didn't live in London but you'd come to London and uh it was so stuffy you know whereas I was kind of you know
6:48
used to New York more than London and where it was very casual you could go in it you know you dressed okay you know it
6:53
sets its own level um but I'd come here and the members clubs are so stuffy the last place I want to go to so so I did
6:58
home house but the condition was that casual dress lots of young people men
7:04
and women you know young and old you know every demographic you know and so it became a fun that's become more of
7:09
the model now you know less it's getting less and less formal but but that attracted me into business and that was
7:14
a success after a struggle so then I thought business is easy and then I've
7:20
spent the next 20 years or something realizing his as actually isn't that easy that's going to be the title of
7:26
this video business is easy you said you know you started the head funs and then you gave it all up
7:31
you retired at 34 and then you got bored do you think that's kind of like how you you know life is for a lot of you know
7:38
Founders and entrepreneurs that they just don't know how to rest or how to retire it's a good time to talk about my
7:44
books yeah you're all a bunch of go-getters I think only because I can refer to them yeah so I know you thought
7:50
I had brought in shopping here CU I thought it was your chessboard no no it's it's be a small chess board I suppose but no it's my two books one has
7:57
taken um uh 12 years or something to write and the other one took three weeks um but this is a Ser this is a sort of
8:04
it's called humble stumbles because that's how my business career has been uh the more I do the humbler I get and
8:10
the more stumbles anyway so humble stumbles and uh it's strategy stories and soul searching so it's got
8:16
everything it's got you know like we were talking about growing up in the care system it's got you know confidence
8:21
issues it's got business strategies got 50 strategies in there and then that so that took 12 years to write and I've
8:27
kind of sped it up because I think there's going to be a an explosion of books coming with with you know AI
8:33
writing books I thought I've actually gone to the effort of writing this myself painstaking though I better hurry up and bring it out and then when I so I
8:40
was in barley visiting my daughter and I finished that and then I wrote a book for young adult schools Ricky means
8:47
business and that has all the lessons but fictionalized for a young person and
8:52
you know actually adults have read it and like it is Ricky a spin on Richard well it's it it yeah I know I guess well
8:58
spotted but but I've WR wrote it which wasn't that easy and I've done quite a lot of writing I used to write for CD
9:04
actually I wrote it so that Ricky I've got one daughter and two sons I wrote it so that Ricky could be either a boy or a
9:10
girl not for any woke reason or not anti-woke or Pro woke but just purely because I wanted it to relate to boys or
9:17
girls and I was tempted to write Ricky with an eye or something but anyway Ricky has been and it's quite hard to write like that you know without saying
9:24
they I didn't want to use funny pronouns I just said you know Ricky was amazed and then Ricky thought that was good
9:29
anyway but Ricky can be a boy or girl but every chapter has a lesson there's 30 chapters so for young people anyway I
9:35
wouldn't be surprised if that one does better than that one maybe they won't do well at all but anyway there book for
9:41
young people I still might read it yeah are these available now can I go on you know Amazon and and order them they will
9:47
be yeah they will be by the time yes they will be by time that and do we get to keep these uh you can keep them okay
9:55
all right great you know when I was on Dragon s I was very impressed with trunky I don't know we're jumping around here a bit but trunk do you remember do
10:00
you know trunky trunky when you go to the airport and there's these suitcases that are pulled Along by kids yeah and
10:07
they're on Dragon's 10 and uh uh I tried to invest in them I was the only one that uh that made him an offer and now
10:14
he's you know Rob low I think it is uh Rob Rob L anyway but it became it became like amazing and and and every time I go
10:21
to the airport you see these things and I I I should have offered more but I went close to getting a deal and I was the one he wanted apparently because of
10:28
whatever he thought the best dragon you know but anyway but I was impressed you
10:33
know just with with the books I was impressed with him because you know had these two suitcases and you know about two young kids and he made me pay for
10:40
them like I kept them oh can I keep these and he made the so just when you were saying can I keep those I'm like
10:45
sales well you got to pay but we won't worry about that there are two things I I want to touch on you said you used to
10:51
write for a c a.m how what was that like well they're hard people to work for aren't they no no no it it was a delight
10:57
you know in a a lot of that was seed of of humble stumbles because it was called the column I I wrote weekly column was
11:04
called Confessions of a serial entrepreneur which is in that and I drew on that process you know and it was a
11:10
popular column or at least your you know Harry tells me that it was a very popular column after it was the second
11:16
most read after the editorial which was maybe the editorial not anyway but no but it was it was a good it went well
11:21
and they gave me the freedom to write you know sometimes I'd write about things which weren't really that busy
11:27
like like being shy or something the it so they didn't you know wasn't so it was
11:32
quite enjoyable and that's so the book humble stumbles it has a lot of different you know it does talk about
11:38
shyness and it does talk about personality and optimism and things like that and and you know relates it back to business where possible but there's a
11:44
lot of story it's a story oriented uh book you know I was quite religious when I was a teenager and but and also I
11:52
always liked esops fables you know their Fable and I love Greek mythology being a bit of a nerd you know I like the
11:58
stories and just little lessons but they're accidental lessons you know um so actually in the in the young adults
12:05
book I wanted to write the simplest sort of story with the most messages so the
12:10
simplest interesting story like if you know the story like Hercules 12 fets of Hercules it's a simple story but it's a
12:16
got a lot in it so they let me write a lot of things which weren't business related but but had indirectly related
12:23
to life or business so it was a very enjoyable to write and then that sort of was my practice for writing humble
12:28
stumbles okay and another thing I also want to touch on you also said something about oh AI the rise of AI and what have you
12:35
noticed in within AI like what trend that you've noticed that people really need to kind of pay attention to I mean
12:42
I think it's funny because as an older person now it's it's almost the younger
12:47
people know more about it than the older people you know when I talk to contemporaries of mine you talk about cha or something and they're like oh
12:53
yeah yeah you know you talk to a 20-year-old or a 10-year-old they know all about it so
12:59
you know so rather than sort of uh you know I think schools rather than sort of saying forget about this you know don't
13:05
use it it's it should be a to it's a tool that we may just Embrace so instead of if I if I had young kids now I'd be
13:11
saying instead of saying don't use this AI I'd you say use it use it you know learn how to use it learn the best way
13:18
to use it you know but as a you know but put in what your you can add but use it don't like you know it's a great
13:24
resource but I think uh I think you know I think we might be underestimating if that's possible what it's going to do in
13:30
the next two years but I'll say this right the the the election that we just had the two elections us and the UK I
13:37
barely noticed and you know I was read everything but I barely noticed any references to AI any any and I'm talking
13:45
one or two like barely you know NHS needing Tiding up or you know there's lots of places that could have been
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talked about no one it's not even in two years time watch this back in two years time
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let's see what happens when the next versions of the of these models come out it's just going to be mind-blowing and
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it's already a massive tool can you imagine the next level so so I think it's underestimated people and people
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some people are scared of it but but the fact it wasn't mentioned in either election is is astounding I think it's
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really it's a it's a very differentiating topic among big business and small business because I meet with
14:20
so many startups that are like making these new tech apps or or platforms that are helping the NHS for example but not
14:27
directly it's little things here and there whether it's in the social care system or in the child care system and
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so there's these these startups that are emerging and I think they're going to have a really big impact in you know five or 10 years time more than they
14:40
think they're going to have because it's goingon to someone once said it's really easy it's really difficult to innovate
14:46
as one person but it's even more difficult to innovate in a big company but it's the perfect sweet spot with a
14:52
group of five or 10 right yes because you can have sort of personal discussions you know if a group gets too big you're scared to say something you
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know or if you're a company that has you know a massive turnover with a lot of products you don't want to risk
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something small to change it because you risk a lot of money and a lot of products whereas if you're a small company with the same type of products
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and you only got 100 going out you're like okay why not try this and then you don't have much to lose and so that's how Innovation I think comes down that
15:17
domino effect but when you said five to 10 years that might be way sooner money I mean uh I can't yet put my tax return
15:24
in there but I wouldn't be surprised if the next version you say do my tax return for me that would be nice though I don't like do my tax return Yes find a
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way I pay less tax D I'm talking about my us tax return those things just get so
15:37
complicated so you love playing chess and earlier we touched on you know you're were playing against our boss Harry and you know you demolished him it
15:44
would have would have happened he didn't use that word you did it would have happened quicker but he was the one who
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was who was the one who was wasting time so what what's it like like you know you said as a kid you know you're very
15:55
interested in Puzzles and that's what going into playing chess like what was that like like career I would like to say of playing chess you know because I
16:02
was very shy when I came through that you know I was traumatized when I came through this this five or six years old
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so I didn't really speak much till I was 10 or 12 you know so and I could speak but I just found it very hard to look at
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people and speak you know so the the one benefit of that was I love doing puzzles
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so and chess is kind of like the ultimate puzzle so I got really into chess and then you know I started
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playing competitively just by accident and then was like 14 or 15 I was beating like adult Champions you know so I got
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quite good quite quickly and then leveled out you know but but um it it really gave me a lot of confidence my
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school work sort of concurrently improved so it gave me it did a lot for me and I tell the story in the book
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actually about I was at a church group and and when I was 15 I think and the church
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man he had us boxing and I'm like I'm not a big person and also don't like because of my history I don't like
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violence I find it quite anyway but but and and then so I just start crying I'm going why does a church group want us to
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fight and I'm like and and I'm like I don't want to do this and he and I said to him I just want to play chess and he
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goes a chess will never get you anywhere I'm like and I always remember those words so when I went to interview for uh
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you know to run a hedge fund in bmud half the interview was about Chess you know and now you know so and they in the
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book there's a section called chess tibits you know that but but uh what I had to unlearn when I went into a little
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bit about chess is very logical if you if you if you don't make a m mistake you won't lose um whereas financial markets
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a bit bit more like back gamon where there's Randomness so chess player may not be very good at dealing with Randomness so you have to learn to deal
17:42
with Randomness and unknown unknowns and there's something in the book as well that surprises in business unfortunately
17:48
are always you could say always bad you know out of the hundred businesses I've had let's say I've had 200 surprises you
17:56
know I would say 199 have been bad you know it's just the I call it the asymmetry of business risk you know the
18:02
curve is not a bell curve it's a skewed curve right over and I've had everything you can imagine you know things you know
18:09
things you wouldn't you know had a business where were growing fish food believe it or not I think the little things you put in fish yeah yeah like
18:16
live fish food because salmon if you if you farm salmon that's they have to give them artificial colorance because they
18:21
don't come out pink otherwise because they're not eating the right food so they were you know so there was we're trying to grow the right food to feed
18:28
long story but anyway but the fish tank smashed somehow you know some and there's fish in I don't know there's
18:33
prawns everywhere whatever but you know that that sort of stuff you don't put in a business plan so you know so you never
18:40
really see a business plan get hit you know I I back net aorte that that one you probably know of that one I think
18:45
it's the only business plan I've ever seen that got hit because there all surprises are bad so anyway so chess
18:51
doesn't teach you that there's no surprises in chess if something happens you could have seen it but but in in
18:57
life it more like backham and they roll it up six or something and you know you're in trouble that's very interesting cuz in you like are always
19:03
thinking two steps ahead and I feel like you can't really necessarily three steps ahead right okay I can maybe do one like
19:09
he's like don't install Okay four but yeah like that's the thing is you can't always necessarily do that in business
19:15
or with anything because yeah you never know what's going to happen yeah there's too many things can happen and and you know it's not always what and also you
19:22
can do the right thing I put in there as well I keep pointing my book down there but you can do the right thing and lose
19:27
you know you can you can do a clever a business idea and lose or you can do a really poor idea and something will go
19:33
your way less likely but something will go your way and work you know particularly trading we see bad
19:38
businesses like bad ideas I think it's less likely I mean more when I was in the financial market so I was backing back those days so you're backing the do
19:44
Mark you know and you might have the the wrong idea but you make money for the wrong reasons because you know because it's a bit of luck involved so and then
19:51
you can learn the wrong lessons so sometimes you got to say I lost money but actually I did the right thing so
19:56
you know you ensure your house for example if you have a house or you know you ensure something and and it your
20:01
house doesn't burn down that doesn't mean I stupid me I shouldn't have insured the house that was a dumb decision right so so but if you looked
20:07
at it purely like that some people do that in business you go that didn't work therefore it was a dumb decision or a silly decision so the outcome doesn't
20:14
always tell you the Merit of the original decision so you got to break that connection so when I was trading and there was this Randomness you have
20:20
to say we might have done a high quality bet but we lost simply because of the odds you know random outcomes and you
20:27
mentioned there are no Goods surprises have you never had a good surprise don't think so I think when we did homeh
20:33
housee uh you know the restoration of a private Club Madonna came and stayed that was a happy you know suddenly get
20:38
the like email or whatever it was back then comes in M would like to stay for a week and that that's a happy surprise
20:44
yeah have you ever had a good surprise tm. I'm surprise no no no um no I mean I
20:51
don't know I I don't own businesses I think in life you get you know but you turn on the news you know like 90% of
20:56
news unless you know sport or something 90% of use is not that great is it you know it's a bit like that I mean you
21:02
know I had Scotch restaurant when we had home house we owned Scotch restaurant on Mount Street which is now a significant restaurant when we had it we lost money
21:08
every single day of the restaurant's life right and and we had a reviewer come and and the waiter completely
21:14
accidentally spiled peas all over his lap right now that where is that in the business plan and he wasn't happy you
21:20
know like he shouldn't that shouldn't have affected you know so where's that that's an example right go that's a my
21:26
Lu thing I had a manager go to the US and he had a car crash and I mean literally a car crash you know so he was
21:32
all right but you know stuff like that I had a machine worth a million pound but a million something right and and it got
21:37
shipped to the US and and the Machine was accidentally dropped off the you know was insured but who puts that in a
21:43
business plan anyway so I think I list a bunch of about 15 thing I got too depressed when I got to fin you know I'm
21:49
like you know prawns falling out of a thing and machines getting dropped anyway so a business is business bias is
21:56
bad well if there's always all the surprises and you can't ever prepare for them what do you do do you just find a
22:03
way to get through them or do you prepare to prepare well you have to be aware ultimately ultimately you have to
22:10
be aware that you can start if you're were talking about startup businesses for example uh ultimately have to be
22:15
aware that you can start a business with a very good idea and be a very good manager and it can fail how do you deal with that so either you you know you
22:22
might lose your house or do you just say it's worth it you know I'll take that one in 10 risk that that I might be very
22:27
unlucky you have to deal with that Randomness you you know you have to it's probably a good idea to be aware of what
22:33
your downside is so okay if I do this business this is how much I'm going to lose or this is how much longer it's going to take to get the business going
22:39
or whatever it's probably good to be aware of that while you plan for the middle outcome but you should be aware
22:44
of the bad outcome pros and cons just got to make different different ways it could go like when we did home house for
22:51
example you know like you know it took a lot lot longer to get going than when we than we originally expected you know
22:57
because in those we got this beautiful build but no one knew about it and it' be so easy now with social media a few pictures of that on Instagram or
23:03
something everyone would have gone there because it's so beautiful but getting that bit of that out in country and Life Magazine once a month or something takes
23:10
a long time yeah it doesn't reach the kind of audience that social media does yeah and have you seen that like you
23:16
really impact some of the businesses that you've invested in you know um the not so much because I I kind of do you
23:22
know I like disruptive businesses I mean I've got in my book pointed it again um
23:27
and it's in both books actually if you haven't seen the books
23:33
these what he's referencing there's not much in there about marketing which because I've never
23:39
understood you know I've never well you're doing it really well right now I'm probably overdoing it but that's
23:44
what they said make sure you talk about your book so to me businesses can be you know I invest in disruptive businesses
23:50
every business needs to be disruptive in a sense you know but but but I I break it down that you can be disruptive by
23:55
product you can have a different type of product which I kind of more interested in it or you can disrupt by price so you can do something exactly the same but
24:01
you have a lower price which obviously can work or you can do something you know so I tend to have disruptive in
24:07
product not in so so that tends to be more tech company homehouse was was disruptive even though it's not a tech
24:14
company it was disruptive as a different type of Club lorte was disruptive at the time because it's selling high quality
24:20
online which hadn't been really been done before and you know like a what do you call it amalgamation side or
24:25
whatever anyway those things hadn't been done before so then not so driven by social media and the companies I've got
24:31
now that I'm involved in one is doing radiation detection particularly in Japan for for Fukushima we don't really
24:37
you know that's not an industry you post on Instagram and another one we deal with AI we deal with government agencies and
24:45
again that's not it tends to I find it tends to be more consumer focused than I don't have consumer focused businesses
24:52
but my question is so you don't well obviously you don't Focus too much on consumer business like you said but and it's across quite variety of sectors Ai
25:00
and what you what you back in terms of startups but what is it that you see in a startup other than that disrupting
25:06
narrative is it is it the person too do you back the founder does it you got it then you know you know like because of
25:11
my background you know chess and maths and stuff you know naturally you know I sort of started thinking it was about
25:16
numbers but now I've realized you know I've gradually realized at some point it's it's all about people you know so
25:22
particularly as I say business plans really get achieved so it's all about people and you know you know the reg
25:27
regga source episode you know that one no you don't oh okay I'm getting no on a lot of
25:35
people will know who they are anyway was it was it was worth watching it's had like I've got on my YouTube channel it's
25:40
had like a 800,000 views just on YouTube uh he came on with a source Levi Roots
25:45
You Got You know he's got the what do you call it the yeah dreadlocks yeah that's it anyway he came you got to watch it you know but but you know at
25:52
some point he was talking about this source and I got no idea you can't really tell just having a go a spicy
25:57
sauce jerks course and uh anyway I realized halfway through it that you
26:02
know if you watch it you'll understand he made so many mistakes he just got it completely wrong you know this business
26:07
plan which was all wrong and I caught him on his numbers he's got this order which he's waving around now obviously an order is great verification for a
26:13
business idea because it means as a third party is actually going to put some money into this and you know so he's waving this around and because I'm
26:19
used to Australian I'm used to leiters and all met metric system I'm I'm thinking this is like a leader per person this cannot be right
26:29
I think you're out by I think you're out by thousand one on your on your numbers you know and normally on Dragon's Den that would be the moment where you know
26:35
the camera's Focus right in perspiration comes down you know like they're done
26:40
you know they're completely done you know I saw it a 100 times you know they're completely done and then all the dragons say stop insulting me with you
26:47
you know all become offensive except me because I was too nice right and uh but anyway he just goes I think you're at
26:53
thousand to1 in your numbers and he goes oh yeah yeah any other questions you know like by the way however like and
27:01
then I said oh you know I how you get a cool name like Levi roots and uh he goes
27:06
I'm actually Keith Gres but I just prefer Levi Roots you know like he's just and and I wrot on my pad I've still
27:11
got my book I wrot on my pad and then the stories in the book I wrote it my
27:16
pad he is the product not the source and when that dawned on me I'm like forget it you don't worry about his order he
27:22
Source this guy is amazing so so I backed him and then Peter Jones jumps in I'm pointing at cuz he was on the lift
27:28
of me but he jumps in and and you know and then it became like the biggest selling Source in the UK for a while so
27:33
but that that was exactly it it's about the now that was kind of different because that was a marketing it was a power of His Image and you know just
27:41
what he brought with it a good person will make an average business work but a bad person bad manager will stuff up the
27:49
best ideas and I've been a bad manager I've stuffed up good ideas so and they bits in the book but anyway but so it's
27:55
all about people business is all about people find it very interesting because I interview quite a lot of startups for
28:01
obviously my everyday job but everything in my house is from those startups like because I I enjoy them so like the
28:07
people really and like um my my my cleaning products that I use are pretty and fig because I interviewed the sons
28:14
of the founders that run it and I was like you Siri the tooth I us the you Tex on these a yeah but like it's just
28:20
fascinating because Museum to startups and and they tell me about all of their stuff and why they do what they do I'm like now I like you look clean you look
28:27
now I like want to buy honest I'm not wearing the shoes but I bought a pair of shoes from the startup that I I interviewed and they're one of my
28:32
favorite pair of shoes and so it's like I do it though because I really enjoyed the I love startups but I'm not going
28:37
that far I mean you know like but it's good they're good products as well like it's yeah I still like my iPhones and
28:44
well I guess but you're also yeah but you're also I mean we know why we like iPhones obviously isn't a great culture
28:49
but you know having said that you know to get on a sort of a serious a museum of startups you said Museum of startups
28:55
and now I'm just looking at my house in my head and I'm like yeah Mo even my salt and pepper shakers I'm
29:00
not even joking my salt and pepper shakers a startup as well yeah okay go I think you'd have to film an episode at
29:06
your house and walk around do a show and tell of your but I was going to say you know like the startup world's fantastic
29:11
but but in the UK it's getting it's you know it's getting it's it's when you get companies to a certain stage of say I
29:18
just throw numbers at it but 20 people and you know and you want need to raise money that is getting really difficult
29:25
it's almost dire at the moment in the UK you know obviously Co didn't help and then the bounce back in the UK economy
29:31
after Co hasn't been fantastic and maybe now with the government maybe not being business friendly um you know you you
29:38
it's I love startups but I'm a bit concerned about the future of them in the UK particularly when they're so
29:44
strong in the US you're sort of stuck between the US where you got billionaire money you know you go to lunch I've never done that I wish I had you go to
29:50
lunch with an idea and they'll give you 20 million over lunch and say don't worry about making a profit I call them infinite startups basically just grab
29:57
market share it's in the book grab market share grab market share and we will own that space we're not worried
30:03
about profits you know profit cash flow we're worried about owning the space you know like uber came in or you know
30:10
something like that just come in and own the space so you got that billionaire funding high risk you know and then in
30:16
China you got government money wanting to own everything AI everything else wanting to own that in Europe and the UK
30:23
you you know raising money we're in this Valley between the two of them it's really scary
30:28
so I'm not so sure about the future of startups in the UK and you know if they do start and they go well they probably
30:35
end up overseas anyway no that's a really good point and before I ask I guess what the remedy to that would be um it it pointed out in terms of like
30:42
domestic Capital as well is very it's it's it's declining whereas a lot of global investment into the UK startups
30:48
is in like increasing but then again that Sparks the argument of whether or not people are going to want to go over to the US anyway um or whether or not
30:55
they're so what's increasing um like International Capital so I think I think capital from no from from the US into UK
31:02
like startups but it's not you know there was something in in one in the Press you know last week or week before
31:08
you know fall total funding fall six year low and you know confidence is you
31:13
know I don't want to be a Dooms Day but that's what I mean so what I guess would the remedy of that um you know the
31:18
government should stay out you know trying to say oh government should sponsor this sector or this sector and they always do like to do ones if
31:24
there's any jobs involved or any headlines involved where you've got a quite little company they do nothing right um but I think they they tax
31:31
breaks tax breaks and incentives you know just there's a lot of little things which are stacked up you know they've
31:36
tightened up you know I think they're talking about tightening up uh inheritance tax for for investments in
31:42
unlisted companies things like that e Eis seis you know um but R&D tax credits
31:47
I mean these are technical things but you get a credit from back from if you're spending money in R&D that takes
31:53
ages to get it's very unclear you know nickel and dime you know like that you just don't get this feeling that there's
31:58
I know there's a limited pot of money but not not individually choosing sectors or companies but just make
32:05
giving tax breaks whatever else they can do making it favorable environment mostly mostly mostly tax you know maybe
32:12
the Nic you know this should be waved for companies which are under five years you know something like that just do
32:18
something and as someone who's I guess lived in in multiple different areas in countries in the US and and in Australia
32:25
what is it that attracted you to UK business in the first place I mean was there anything that excited you about it
32:30
well I you know we were talking about before we were talking about before we came on camera talk about languages and things um you know I lived in Monaco for
32:36
a while but my French is is tral that one thing about the UK you know is is is a language obviously but
32:44
but you know I started uh in in the mid 90s and I think I was the first person uh with a friend of mine the two of us
32:49
were the first people uh to spin out intellectual property out of Oxford University like I viewed it as the
32:56
valuations here were a lot lower than the US for similar ideas right and the universities are here are fantastic as
33:03
everyone knows and so I had this back then we were going into we were first person to wander in Oxford University
33:09
and like you know and because I think Margaret Thatcher had changed the rules so that professors could own their IP a
33:14
bit of you know they could take some money out as well as a university and so we had this model of of sort of adding
33:20
management and money and doing all that and then taking it and listing it on name very lot of intellectual property here and a lot of also you could raise
33:26
money you could go to a you could get a company which was still loss making raised 20 million put it on AIM that was
33:32
doable in the '90s 2000s and then gradually that every year it just seems to be worse but I but I think there you
33:40
I mean there is a great culture here you know there is a a real can do culture so
33:45
there's a lot of positives uh it's just the the current is against us I think and when speaking to you know um
33:52
entrepreneurs what have you noticed that's like a big difference between an American entrepreneur and a British
33:57
Entre well you're bir American not AUST I interiew I interviewed someone who actually she started her business here
34:02
and she just Ed and moved an entire family to New York and the first thing she said she was like I don't like the
34:07
non- lion culture why is everybody up at 5:00 a.m. walking around the city I want to start my first meeting at 10:00 a.m.
34:13
and she was like it's literally the hustle and bustle of New York sorry she she started in the UK moved to the US
34:20
and she was like why is everybody up in Adam at 5:00 a.m. she just wasn't used to it she was like I just like my lion
34:25
culture so so it's like New York very hustle and bule and and go but I think London's quite the same I've met a lot
34:31
of entrepreneurs and and there's one thing that there is one consistent Factor one it doesn't matter about
34:37
religion age race gender you know uh uh there's one factor or even education
34:44
even to some extent you know contacts and uh it's it's it's energy levels there's no I've never met a lazy
34:51
successful entrepreneur they're all a bit hyper we are hyper and you know you
34:57
know I'm up at 5: you know that's just me you know but but I you know I like to you know when you're excited about
35:02
something you're thinking about in the shower you know you're think about it you're falling to sleep you know there's you know you can't be part you know you
35:07
can't be it can't be a third thing that you're interested in see she mentioned she was like I like starting my first meeting at 10: but I'll work until 11:
35:15
yeah that's okay I mean you know maybe that works I mean my older son my older son is works till you know he's up till
35:20
3 and I'm like how can you do that like I like to work with a light you I know you know but I like to be tuned with it
35:26
but anyway that's not that's not make or break you know but I think it's energy levels no matter when you do it it's
35:31
just like there's there's no such thing as a lazy successful entrepreneur so I think that's the one agreement wouldn't
35:37
you say you ever met anyone no no actually honestly one of the last people we interviewed she was like I don't
35:43
remember the last time I took a holiday and because her holiday is her work you know she said she she took holiday so
35:48
she can her work is her hobby persp yeah if if you like what you do you don't have to take a break from it yes it's uh
35:55
it's you know you think it's it's like puzle or you know like you're trying to think what else could we do yeah what
36:00
else could we do with this business you know that's the fun part is it always next you know can you tell us like your funniest Dragon
36:07
Dance okay oh let me think um chapter six no there is
36:13
uh aook you know for those not watching he's pointing to his book you know I I I
36:21
uh yeah I was always bad at marketing you know I'm still you know you're really good at it now no I'm not you
36:27
know home home house like they said I'll show some people around then then I did it once they wouldn't let me do it anymore because
36:32
I because I don't like asking people for money you know I feel like you know like oh you know like oh don't worry I'll get
36:38
you in for free you know like they're like you can't say that you got to charge people for membership you know anyway because you're too used to giving
36:43
away money that's why investing money yeah but I feel cheesy obviously I'm uh
36:48
but I think the funniest one from Dragon 10 I think would be the one-handed glove you if you haven't seen reg reg yeah I
36:55
think I know the one handed glove you don't even know reg Reg so I think you're just trying to make up for not
37:02
anyway well you can finish the story you finish the story I'll let you finish one so he came on I'll give a very brief
37:08
explanation and and my apologies to that particular entrepreneur if I've get this wrong this is my base I'm recollection
37:13
about true events anyway but he comes on he he he traveled a lot to France from the UK
37:19
where they drive on the other side of the road as you know and and so he found the difficulty of you know changing SES As Americans You' understand that and
37:26
and so he invented he invented a glove and and so as you're driving along you know when he goes into
37:33
France he put the glove on presumably on the right side I think to make him remind him to drive on the right side
37:40
now and you'd switch it yeah well no because he's he's okay when he's back in
37:46
the UK but that's a good point we'll get back to that in a second like I don't know why he does have put a sticky note with an arrow on it drive over there
37:52
nutcase or put you know put something funny up or a big you know anyway but that was his invention and he literally
37:57
came on to Dragon sent with that invention right but where it got funny in Dragon a tip not an
38:04
invention don't I'm not slagging device you know but uh but where it got funny
38:11
was was his atie and my apologies again too because I'm Mr nice but where it got funny was it turns out that he was
38:18
somehow paying more to get one glove made than two gloves now that you know
38:24
that is that yeah so that actually got us laughing on you know it's not that funny on dragon z but that got us all
38:31
sort of you know laughing a lot and then and then Theo to his credit had a very clever idea because he's like we'll have
38:36
one business in the U you in France selling the right glove and another one in the in UK selling the left clove and
38:42
the guy went away chuffed anyway that's about as funny as it got one-handed glove that's I don't think it business
38:48
has got going yet so if you guys want a tip You' have one of those at home pretty soon W you in your Museum of you
38:55
have to admire his confidence to go like I'm going to sell to you guys a glove that's what that's what I'm pitching
39:01
well I'll tell you though just going back to going back to Reg sauce that they you know the BBC deliberately put
39:06
on things that are fodder that you know just sort of meant to be funny so I assume he was put on meant to be funny
39:13
to lighten up and make the other ones look really clever so you have you know but but having said that so I assume he was one of those but Rego R Source they
39:21
put on they thought never thought he' get they just thought he was oh yeah going to get kicked off but he ended up being one of the biggest most one of the
39:28
most well-known Dragon sand episodes ever even though he was probably just sent on just to have you know one minute to laugh at him my question is was the
39:35
one-handed glove exactly what you thought it was before he told you that story no that's not what I thought it
39:41
was that's absolutely not what I thought it was at all but that's so funny I would never have thought someone would come on and try and be like oh well
39:47
guess this is a brilliant idea right I think it has don't tell anybody at think is this a comedian is
39:54
this one of those comedy things wait but did it actually like is it an ual business now like did it work out I haven't seen it but I don't monitor it
40:00
that closely you you know I I'm intrigued now what was it like
40:06
running the investment um was it you had a fund a fund management that you used to do
40:13
right so what was so yeah okay that's one way of saying it that more a Trader
40:18
okay so what was it like like when you're running like you know the fund management like the hedge fund what was it like before you retired how was that
40:23
like and why did did that you decided to retire when you did so I kind of started out in the math side designing derivatives and back in the days when
40:30
you didn't really have laptops and a lot of you know at the age of 24 25 I was doing figuring out $200 million swaps
40:36
for desks you know for people for sales people you know on paper you know I'm like hoping I don't get a plus and a
40:41
minus mixed up or like you know because of my math background and and you know that you know so it had to be right and
40:47
I love that I got gradually got involved in taking more risk and then because of my economics background I was you know
40:52
was taking taking risks in the market and then that became my soulle job and I was made a direct when I was mid-20s so
40:58
you can imagine for me coming from the care system with absolutely no money and 18 leave you having to leave and having
41:04
no parents and then I had to you know do night school to go to university at the beginning because I had no money and no
41:09
parent you know no family so it was all very very tough and then you know then I started earning a lot of
41:15
money so but all that money well I saved it because I had you know imposter
41:20
syndrome like I never thought you know I got money I'm like that's not going to happen again someone once asked me what I would do with my first million and I
41:26
was like I'd probably it until I need squirrel and the guys working for me and they're girls as well but people working
41:32
for me um you know I said to them once and they all wear this amazing year and I'm like so they got really good bonuses
41:38
and I said just so you know and this is I said anyone I see you know you know and there's like 15 of them or something
41:45
anyone I see you know buying a fancy car or doing something you know wasting this
41:51
that's entirely your money but bear in mind that I watch what people do and you
41:56
know it's my respect and you know i' probably have a lot of respect for you if you put a deposit on a house or or or
42:01
put it to you know put it as a sensible investment because you didn't want to you know I didn't like these young City guys here I've got a por next year next
42:10
year they lose their job and they've got nothing so I I so they will thank me now I'm my friends with them all they all thank me all thanks for not stopping me
42:15
buying the Porsche and making me buy the property but but but so to get back to your question which I almost lost there for a second um you know so I did it for
42:22
a long time and you know and and it was it's about looking at economic statistics it's about reading knowing what the trade unions are doing in
42:28
Germany and what's happening in Fr like imagine right now you know with the things happening in France or you know so it's it's a lot of detail um and also
42:36
you know it was changing a bit where you know if there was an election you know some of the funds actually send people around to try to ask people who they
42:42
voted for to get the early you know the hedge fund business got tougher and tougher and you know all and I used to
42:47
find patterns in the market repeatable patterns which all we would to be attacked Now by AI the AI is going to
42:53
find pattern faster than we can so I I you know I retired too early I'd be a billionaire by now because I was
42:59
probably the highest paid hedge fund person in the world in the in the early in the mid 90s uh so so you know coming
43:05
from the you know as I said I came from nothing and I never really viewed money as that important oddly enough I was
43:11
more running to feel okay with myself which may sound funny but you know but now I've kind of thought about a lot as
43:16
writing about it I I really had this inferiority and I just wanted to feel in his new audio audio only listeners um I'm
43:25
pointing at the book that's on the table but but you know so it was really about just feeling like I was good at something you know and and but you know
43:31
but after 12 years and and you know having worked so hard as a student and everything you know I just felt like a rest and I wasn't burned out I mean I I
43:38
just thought you know I'm going to you know and I moved to Monte Carlo you know when I because I'd made all this money and then I thought I was rich and then
43:44
you get to mono and you're like I'm actually I'm actually not that rich at all when you look around you know but
43:49
you know that was fine so I kind of yeah I just thought and and I also thought thought that I wanted to do different
43:56
things you know so you know writing you know for example or just playing chess I played in a couple of Chess olympiads
44:03
you know after that so I took up chess two time Olympian aren you yeah uh so I took up chess again you know yeah so I
44:10
just you know and then business was fascinating even though B business to me is more difficult than Finance was
44:16
because Finance you can kind of you know there's sort of logical things that happen you know I've got inflation wrong
44:22
whereas as I say you don't predict peas being spilled on someone's you know like I saw find that part quite tricky when
44:28
navigating the randomness of it and the bad news bias so so but but I just was thought I wanted to do different things
44:34
in life and then you know I don't regret it you know even though I could have made a lot more money being in the hedge fund world I don't really regret it
44:40
because I feel like I've got you know a lot of experiences in life which is what it's about isn't it yeah I agree and
44:47
going into 2025 like what's like the most interesting business that you're currently like maybe investing in like a
44:52
small startup that you're investing in yeah I have my radiation company which which uh is is literally 20 people on
44:59
the aisle of white called Innovative physics and uh you know we you know I've been involved you know we started you
45:04
know we we basically bought it out of liquidation me and the managers and and you know we we it's about so we we decam
45:11
we decontaminate uh you know nuclear reactors so say for example Fukushima
45:16
and and we are the clever bit so we are Ai and These Guys these guys are so funny because everyone says their AI now
45:22
but the you know they were talk about they were talking about neuron networks and because of my math background I'm go well that's now called AI they go yeah
45:29
AI I'm like you mean we are an AI company yeah we're an AI company but they must be the only company in the world that's got any AI that doesn't
45:35
mention it anyway but they are very clever physicists and and and so this sort of arm will go into the middle of a
45:40
reactor to take out because they have to decontaminate this I don't know if you know but in Fukushima you know this they
45:46
had a disaster so they have to it's going to take 50 years but they make this sort of snake that goes in and and
45:51
they have to take bits out slowly one by one and you can't if they're both radio Radioactive you can't put them together
45:57
so we identify how radioactive each bit is and whether it can be put together and all that the smarts at the on the
46:03
end of the snake so uh that company has it's taken 10 years but it's beaten off
46:10
much bigger players and prove and prove that they have the best technology so that's that's exciting to me I may not
46:17
have told it that excitingly 2025 is a year for it yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah but but you know we've got you know we
46:23
we're you know the discussions we have are about 20e contracts so I'm just hoping to live that long and if I was an
46:30
entrepreneur and I wanted you to like you know um invest in my business and my startup idea what is the kind of things
46:36
that you you want to hear or you know what is it that you're looking for personality traits or well obviously not
46:42
being lazy um you you know and the F you know I I find and I find out interviewing people for anything even in
46:48
finance or whatever you often learn more about someone not actually asking them direct questions about about that field
46:55
you might ask them what they're interested in and you know and you know find out uh you know the like I learned
47:01
a lot about interviewing um which why I thought Dragon s you know I was my goal
47:06
they' all the rest of the panel would always be trying to put maximum pressure on them and I thought that was really stupid like I would try to relax them
47:14
and because I really want to know it might make better TV to slam someone off but I wanted to relax them and get inside their mind and really know what
47:21
sort of person how they thought and all the rest of it um so so I'd be looking that if you if it was you I'd be sort of
47:27
talking to you about you know where you how you got to what your journey is and you know and also picking up little little things like how hard you might
47:34
work or how intelligent you are how creative you are you know what sort of risk taker you are you know what you're
47:39
going to do when something goes wrong you know like picking things up like that they're all sort of non you know
47:45
nothing obvious it's it's going back to dating it's probably like going on a date you know what is it that you look for nothing in particular it's just
47:51
whatever it is so uh but but you know I suppose you also have a look at the
47:56
business plan even though they don't get hit most of the time you know and how disruptive it is um but you know there's
48:03
no there's no magic really good advice because I'm
48:08
working on the pitch that I'm going to in our heads in the back of our but the pitch has got to be good you know
48:14
pitch has got to be good you know and then you know you got to get it out pretty quickly what's what's interesting about it for any thing from your end no
48:22
I feel like we could talk for hours but our producer is uh doing the little sign for us so you got to te it up is there
48:29
anything else you want to say about your book close I could give you one last
48:35
chance well um they're good I mean no honestly okay now so I will say this so
48:42
I wrote a book before which did very well in finest I have publish I've started my own publishing company which I thought would be
48:49
easy no but I've learned a lot about publishing you know I've got people doing it for me but you know but I've learned a lot about publishing in the
48:54
meantime um but the margins in writing a book are terrible aren't they like so
49:00
this sells for I think it's less than 10 maybe 8 pound or something I mean holy struth honestly if you've got a child
49:05
teenager you can get so much value out of 8 quid I think this is like 12 quid I'm like it took 12 years to write and I
49:12
think I'm left with like3 and someone said I'll buy someone yeah like and someone says I'll
49:18
buy your book I really don't give a I get3 P it doesn't pay for a coffee no but so you know you got to buy hundreds
49:23
and hundreds a lot but it's a tough do you want to say the names of the books again I don't think you said it enough
49:31
name I must admit to you know but I have the permission but a friend of mine wrote a book called humble crumbles
49:37
about a p business that failed humble crumbles that one a and then I thought do you mind if I call mine humble
49:42
stumbles so you know that's and that's pretty well I was going to call it Confessions of a entrepreneur no what
49:48
was it going to call anyway Confessions of a dragon or something but anyway humble sumbles and this is Ricky means business as I say Ricky can be a boy or
49:54
a girl so one of the reasons I didn't go with the publisher is when a book came out before you know I went on TV you
49:59
know went on different shows you know and you talk about the book it's all changed now now you've just got to build up the social media following and I
50:05
haven't got a you know if I should have done that when I should have been Craig bartler when I was on freaking Dragon St
50:12
and now now now you know people work got to get this you know get my social media
50:18
up they got to do it all on social you know and you got to chat to you guys about the book I'm going to decline your
50:24
offer of the free book and I'll purchase one oh that's three in the te that's your coffee for the day
50:31
for he like thanks for the coffee I'll buy them for my see what you say is like it's a 100 value1 pound of value say
50:38
it's not expensive present but you know that could be your yeah well you know so
50:43
someone someone I know can read this and then start one of the greatest businesses in the world and that's what
50:49
they and this will be it be it be because of this yeah do you think they'd give me a percentage I I I hope so
50:54
commission yeah that'd be good they'll probably ask be a shout out of your book
50:59
afterwards give it to uh they could give it to Action for Children charity I'm man Ambassador for and another one's
51:06
their future today which is Sri Lankan children's uh charity they could give something to that okay so perfect you
51:12
know I'll let them know when I buy them for or they could just post it to me directly and I'll it right well with that said uh thank
51:19
you so much rich thank you so much it was fun but it was fun for me
51:27
come [Music]
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