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Do vaping companies do more harm than good? Totally Wicked CEO explains benefits
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Oct 7, 2024
Totally Wicked was established with a simple goal: to convert as many smokers as possible into vapers in order to 'improve their health'. This mission has led the Lancashire-headquartered company to become one of the largest names in the industry and a major employer across the country. In this episode of Boardroom Uncovered, City A.M.'s UK editor Jon Robinson sits with the group's boss Marcus Saxton to find out if Totally Wicked can really stick to its claim to be a healthier alternative given the negative headlines that vaping has generated over recent years. Read more of the story here š https://www.cityam.com/totally-wicked-do-vaping-companies-do-more-harm-than-good/ Get more of City A.M. š š http://www.cityam.com X(formerly Twitter): http://twitter.com/CityAM Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cityam Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/city_am LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/company/cityam Produced by: Jon Robinson, Emmanuel Nwosu, THG Studios #entrepreneur #ceo #interview #business #vaping #vapes
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0:00
There's something in the news all the time about Gen Z being difficult to work with
0:04
I'm assuming that you employ a number of them at Totally Wicked
0:07
What's your experience of Gen Z entering the workforce? I wouldn't say difficult, genuinely
0:13
I say different, but different potentially in a positive way. And what I mean by that in part is I remember when I started out
0:19
and maybe it was me, maybe it was the organisation. You finished work when the work was finished
0:25
And if that meant you were in at 7 a.m., and you went at 7pm, that's sort of what went on
0:30
and that was expected almost in many ways the positive outlook that some people may say
0:35
oh you know people are clock watching and they're leaving at five o'clock for me that's actually very refreshing
0:39
I think that's been a correction in the workplace that enables people to effectively live their lives
0:45
and hopefully work and career becomes a positive part of that so yes they have a different outlook to some
0:51
and they might be seeking someone say instant gratification the next role the next stimulus I don't think that's a bad thing
0:57
as long as they recognise that, yeah, you've got to have experience
1:01
and will guide you as best we can. But I think some of those behaviours that are exhibited
1:05
I think are quite refreshing to the workplace rather than challenging per se
1:09
What is your trade? Because you've worked for several different businesses doing several different jobs
1:13
What is your trade? For me, what I look now at and going back
1:18
without tooling it cliched, for me, I like to inspire as best I can
1:24
I'm a people person getting under the skin of people, what makes them tick
1:28
For many, many years, I would try and recruit people that were similar to me because that felt familiar
1:33
It felt great. You'd have an amazing time. But actually in reality, clearly, like many great leaders
1:38
have gone on to achieve, whilst I'm still learning in many ways
1:42
is you start to recognise the ability to surround yourself with people that aren't like you
1:47
And actually, they can challenge your thinking, galvanise that thinking together and come up with better ideas
1:51
What kinds of a CEO are you? that's a good question I hope I'm one that inspires
2:01
motivates, listens galvanises the best out of people and the best out of individuals and teams
2:07
and we might come back to doing that because again there's a very key part in my career
2:10
of this buzzword high performing teams what does it mean how do you achieve it
2:15
what are the building blocks that you put in play to try and drive the best performance
2:19
out of individuals and teams so for me it is hopefully I am a CEO
2:23
that listens inspires, that motivates, that drives success and performance ultimately. Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Boardroom Uncovered, powered by City AM
2:41
My name is John Robinson, City AM's UK editor. And my guest for this episode is the CEO of Totally Wicked Marcus Saxton
2:48
Since being founded in 2008, Totally Wicked has grown to become one of the biggest e-cigarette
2:54
businesses in the UK. In recent years, the industry it operates in has never been far from the
2:59
news, with headlines dominated by concerns over children's usage and a debate over whether
3:06
it actually helps to bring down the number of smokers or acts as a gateway. Without further delay
3:12
let's dive in. So, Marcus, thank you very much for coming to Boarding Recovered today
3:18
Obviously, you've been in the role for about five years or so now. Yeah, just over five years, yeah
3:22
Yeah. You didn't start out in the business world. You started out in the gym as a personal trainer, I understand
3:28
Very true, very true. How did you get from the treadmill to the boardroom
3:34
Very nice way of putting it. So I was a typical, I wasn't particularly academic at school, but I knew enough and was astute enough to get by, let's say, so I did okay through school, went to six form and the traditional route of university
3:45
I was very passionate in those days about sport, exercise still am to today. But going back, when I came out of university, this sort of
3:52
use of sports psychologists and arguably personal trainers was nowhere near as prolific as it is
3:58
today. So I came out with this real passion. I'd learn a lot. I'd had an amazing time like often
4:02
people do in university. And effectively, I went to work for someone called Whitbread at the time
4:08
that had purchased David Lloyd, spent two or three years absolutely loving that environment
4:12
I was wet behind the ears, but they suddenly put me in charge of a team of people and learned
4:17
basically my trade, you could say, from a very, very early age without that experience
4:22
Having said that, I was working when everyone else was playing and as I said, there wasn't really that ability to apply what I felt I had at that particular time
4:31
I opened a magazine called The Grocer, as it was called then and still is to today
4:35
And I saw an advert that said, Mars, company car, come and learn, develop with us and create your future
4:42
And lo and behold, I went to had an interview with Mars and started out with Mars all those 25 years ago or thereabouts
4:49
And then from that, navigated through, as you would say, from treadmill to very different passages new
4:54
And you say you learnt your trade as a personal training. What is your trade
4:58
Because you worked for several different businesses doing several different jobs. What is your trade
5:04
For me, what I look now at and going back without telling it cliched, for me, I like to inspire as best I can
5:12
I'm a people person getting under the skin of people, what makes them tick
5:16
For many, many years, I would try and recruit people that were similar to. to me because that felt familiar
5:22
It felt great. You'd have an amazing time. But actually in reality, clearly, like many great leaders have gone on to achieve
5:29
whilst I'm still learning in many ways, is you start to recognise the ability to surround yourself with people that aren't like you
5:35
And actually, they can challenge your thinking, galvanise that thinking together and come up with better ideas
5:40
So from that perspective, it was how do I take, hopefully good with people, that interaction as a personal trainer
5:45
If you can't interact with people, you can't motivate them. clearly they're using you for a particular purpose, then you've probably not going to be a successful
5:52
trainer. So from that perspective, it was those elements of interacting with people, engaging with
5:57
people, motivating them for what was important for them, arguably you could say carried through
6:02
And how do you inspire your employees? You'd probably have to ask them. I spent many years
6:10
I can remember it quite vividly, when I went from a business called Brickwick Soft Drinks, still
6:15
exist today, very big, successful organisation, and I moved to a business called Glaxa Smith
6:20
Klein at the time under their Consumer Healthcare Division, Lucas Aden, Rybina, where their brands
6:25
subsequently been sold off to a different business. The reason I raised this is actually
6:29
it was a very pertinent time. I got very curious to what was leadership, what was vision
6:34
Because if I couldn't sort of read it, then actually how could I attempt to portray it
6:39
Now, you may say, well, that sounds a bit robotic, but for me, that's how I started out. what were these words
6:45
What was it that someone, when I saw them stood on stage, put hairs on the back of my neck
6:49
What is it that they did? How did they do that? So for me, how do you do it
6:53
It is about getting to the root of, for me, vision's really important
6:59
So what you do will follow, but why you do it and purpose is really, really important
7:04
So for me getting under the skin of what an organisation in my current guy is totally wicked
7:09
the most purposeful organisation I've ever worked for. I'm sure we'll come onto it. controversial for some people, but actually for me the most purposed
7:17
And therefore getting to the route of we empower smokers to transform their lives
7:22
And I spoke to so many people in our organisation that had bought their first vaping e-cigarette
7:27
to help them quit smoking from Totally Wicked. A job became available
7:32
And they said, why would I not go and work for a place that transformed my life? And for me, that type of inspiration I got from them
7:37
but it just gives you a sense of how I try and portray it to others, whether individual groups or within an organisation
7:44
how do you get to the route of why and how do you drive that through an organisation
7:48
in a passionate, emotional way? That's really interesting. We will get on to totally wicked
7:53
and those topics that you mentioned. I just wanted to bring it back very quickly to the gym
8:00
Yeah. Is anything that you learnt when you were a personal trainer that you still use today in terms of leadership style
8:07
is the gym still part of your life? Is that something that's, you know, you do every day, every week
8:12
Yeah, it is. I'm fortunate in that regard, you know, for some people going to the gym
8:16
health and fitness is a bit of a grind, and they find themselves at some point feeling they need to do it
8:21
For me, it's a desire I want to do it, and almost for me not having a gym membership of some description
8:25
I went back to the gym I actually opened as a member because it's not far from where we're sat today
8:31
And it was great. I love the environment, yeah, it's important for me. I like the discipline of it
8:35
It goes back to school, the studies that I did, instilling that discipline in you
8:40
you know, over 30 days drives a habit, and many people would say
8:44
and for me that's a really important part. But now you're not going to work in your gym stuff
8:47
every day, you're going to work in the seats. I am unfortunately, yeah. And now you're running, you know
8:52
one of the biggest companies in the industry in the UK today
8:56
But what kinds of a CEO are you That a good question I hope I one that inspires motivates listens
9:08
galvanises the best out of people and the best out of individuals and teams
9:12
And we might come back to doing that because, again, there's a very key part in my career of this buzzword, high-performing teams
9:18
What does it mean? How do you achieve it? What are the building blocks that you put in play to try and drive the best performance out of individuals and teams
9:26
So for me, it is hopefully I am a CEO that listens, that inspires, that motivates, that drives success and performance ultimately
9:34
And your leadership style, are you collaborative, are you a bit more presidential maybe
9:39
Is it your way or the highway? No, far from it. But I've been on a journey through this
9:44
For me, people getting under the skin of who I was, or quite frankly, me understanding others, was actually quite foreign to me in the early part of my career
9:53
For me, maybe this is the sporting background, I came into work without sounding too much like a robot
9:58
I was here to succeed individually, collectively, and it was all about work
10:04
Why did people want to know about me? And once when I moved it to my first
10:08
you could call it small leadership role, my director at the time came to me
10:12
said, Marcus, you're great at what you do, you're amazing. But your team want to know more about you
10:17
And actually, therefore, to your very point, that was quite a pivotal point
10:21
People want to understand me. You've got to get under the skin of individuals. You've got to galvanise different perspectives together
10:27
Be collaborative, for sure, is undoubtedly the role that I play now is how can I steer
10:32
how can I position, how can I give a perspective, but get the best perspectives for our business
10:37
out of a collective group of individuals. You've obviously risen up the ranks during your career and you've got to the top of one
10:44
of the biggest companies, private companies in the UK today. Do you ever step back and just look at your position now and wonder, I can't believe I've got to
10:51
this stage? Do you ever feel a bit like an imposter syndrome maybe? I can't believe I'm doing this
10:56
Yeah, often I think many people will cite that throughout the career of you hopefully have done a good job and on merit you've got the positions that you've been put into
11:05
And you could argue that goes without saying. But I think often pressure and you put more pressure on yourself
11:11
to sort of continually look over your shoulder. There's competitors out there that are seeking to nip at our heels all the time
11:17
And I think that can very quickly raise some of those doubts in your mind
11:21
So fortunately, I've managed to put them into perspective and stay purposed on our agenda and drive that forward as best as I can
11:29
But I think it's important to recognise that all of us are still learning. I'm still learning
11:33
There's amazing people out there. I'm constantly reading podcasts. There's such a plethora of available stimulus in front of you that I don't think anyone should sit there and say, I'm the finished article
11:43
Because there's always opportunity to learn. And as we might come on to, I've been into quite different fields and businesses
11:49
You know, you've named two. If we filled out the bit in the middle, it's soft drinks, it's chocolate, it's beer, and a variety
11:56
And each of those organisations have had different cultures, different feelings, different issues and different opportunities
12:02
And that's the bit that ultimately has been rewarding for me, but keeps me challenged as well
12:07
With those different companies, obviously you've sold a lot of different products throughout your career
12:12
Is it the same fundamental principles selling a Mars bar to a vape to, you know, a soft drink
12:17
It is in many ways because you could say I had a friend's young son over who's 20 and he was a really astute young chap and he was asking many guided questions, you know, across conversation. What is it that got your supposition it was today? How would I? I'm thinking of this. What about that? And I was trying to describe to my tucking into our business. I said, listen, ignore the fact that we're vaping to the very question and point that you're making is fundamentally. And I didn't quite understand this when I went into Mars in my very first, let's say, corporate role is, I
12:47
I was going in as a salesperson and sort of that's all tunnel vision. I either was interested in or was put in front of me
12:55
So what I took him into the business, to the very point you're making, was I said, just imagine the spine of a business
12:59
You're going to have something called people. HR, it might be called. You're going to have finance. You're going to have people that sell things
13:04
You're going to have people that try and market them. So if you boil it down to the Bore Bay Bay Bay Basics
13:09
there are those fundamental areas. Of course, the products vary. Of course, the challenges within that sector
13:14
Vaping has been extremely high growth, high penetration. area. My last business, washing and bathing, 98% of people were using those products. Not sure
13:23
what the 2% were doing, but 98% were. So it was a constant share steal, Unilever, Procter & Gamble
13:30
PZ Cousins. How do you steal 1% share? It was sort of euphoric. So quite different environments
13:35
but fundamentally very similar processes, systems, people. Tell me about a typical day
13:40
if there is one, a typical day in the life of a CEO of Totally Wicked. There isn't. And that is
13:45
genuinely the thing when I had been in, as I keep referring, the corporate world
13:50
previously is it's amazing. I have loved every single brand that I've had the opportunity
13:55
and privilege and person to work with. I've had a thoroughly enjoyable time. I've moved on
14:00
for opportunities and I think the outlook today is probably more refreshing than when I was
14:04
younger, which is I'd sometimes get asked, well, you've moved around a few organisations
14:09
Well, my answer was, yeah, why wouldn't you when you've got the opportunity to work for great brands
14:13
different environments, different locations, different stimulus, and I could justify each one of them
14:18
But that doesn't reflect lack of loyalty. But for some people at that time, at that era, it's, oh, you've moved around a lot
14:25
And I think the new refreshing outlook is for the new generation, they sort of open their arms to
14:30
why wouldn't I do that with such a plethora of opportunity? You mentioned about the new generation
14:35
There's something in the news all the time about Gen Zed being difficult to work with
14:39
I'm assuming that you employ a number of them at Totally Wicked
14:43
So what's your experience of Gen Z entering the workforce? I wouldn't say difficult, genuinely
14:49
I say different, but different potentially in a positive way. And what I mean by that in part is I remember when I started out
14:55
And maybe it was me, maybe it was the organisation. You finished work when the work was finished
15:01
And if that meant you were in at 7am and you went at 7pm, that's sort of what went on
15:06
And that was expected almost in many ways. The positive outlook that some people may say, oh, you know, people are clock watching and they're leaving at 5
15:13
o'clock, for me that's actually very refreshing. I think that's been a correction in the workplace
15:18
that enables people to effectively live their lives and hopefully work and career becomes a positive
15:24
part of that. So yes, they have a different outlook to some and they might be seeking, someone
15:29
say instant gratification, the next role, the next stimulus. I don't think that's a bad thing as long as
15:34
they recognise that, yeah, you've got to have experience and will guide you as best we can. But I think
15:39
some of those behaviours that are exhibited, I think are quite refreshing to the work
15:43
place rather than challenging per se. What about your work-life balance? Do you think that that is where it is, should be at the moment
15:49
Have you struggled with that in your career? I've definitely struggled in the past, but I would always say work without sounding like this
15:57
machine again has been a really important part of my life. It's provided privilege, it's provided opportunity
16:03
I work in Germany at the moment. We've opened up a German business. I did that previously in my last business
16:08
I would have never gone to some of these places, Indonesia with PZ cousins, had I not had the
16:13
the opportunity with work. So for me, part of that has been embraced and welcomed for me
16:20
and I've obviously got some success off the back of it. Conversely, to the very point you ask
16:24
I've probably got work-life balance into a better spot now. There aren't those long weekend
16:29
working. At times it's tough. In an organisation like ours, we've got over 400 employees. We're
16:35
a big employer, but I could be one minute doing minutia, next minute, doing something a bit more
16:41
strategic and I welcome that but certainly I think it's in better balance now than it ever has
16:45
been and on the life side of things what do you do when you're not at work how do you fill your time
16:50
and I'm not back on that treadmill I could do being on it more I suspect these days as I near 50 next year
16:56
but certainly bit of golf bit of relaxation good food friends all this sort of cliched stuff but
17:04
importantly my personal life versus work life are quite different so so you know running up at
17:10
Everest or something because they have the persona of, you know, driven. No, absolutely not
17:14
I collapse in front of the telly and put Celebrity Love Island on. For me, the ability to just
17:19
sort of sit there and just take in a very different world, it's quite refreshing, genuinely
17:24
for me. And you're not one of those CEOs that, you know, watch Celebrity Love Island and then jump on LinkedIn and say the five sales marketing lessons that you've taken from
17:33
the latest episodes. Have you been looking at my LinkedIn job? No, I hope I wouldn't be
17:38
albeit funnily enough to what you say, is I will listen to podcasts and various things
17:43
I was out in Germany, small little story. I noticed all these little things on the door handles, which I realised weren't sort of do not disturb
17:52
And what they'd actually described was put this on your door if you don't want your linen changed
17:55
and actually will give you a small rebate on your bill to use in the bar So for example I just thought it was so brilliant And I saw so many of these tags It was obviously being embraced by these hotel patrons that actually I did post on
18:09
LinkedIn because I felt what a great way to try and stimulate behavior change in a really novel
18:14
fashion. But you'll be pleased to know that was once in an occurrence rather than every week
18:18
And what you see on LinkedIn is people may be starting a business and they instantly give
18:23
themselves the title of CEO that becomes so important to them that they have that type. They have
18:28
that title. So intertwined to who they think they should be, you obviously hold that title
18:35
as a legitimate and successful business. What does that title mean to you? And do you think people
18:41
sometimes devalue it by giving it to themselves with, you know, not even a second employee
18:48
Maybe. Yeah, that's a fair point. Yeah, I sometimes do see those and then you do scribble down
18:52
you realize if they're setting up an organisation on their own. Listen, I don't get too concerned with that
18:57
I'm very proud of the position I hold. Hopefully it's come through hard work, merit
19:02
and having the privilege to work with great brands and great people. Am I that bothered that I'm called that
19:07
Not particularly, but that's easier for me to say now, looking back than when I was aspiring to be something bigger
19:15
something better, something more rewarding. So again, I did post actually on LinkedIn
19:20
Here we go. There's a theme happening, which spoke a little bit about that when I was speaking to this chap at the weekend
19:24
And I think it's Stephen Bart that talks about, fill your buckets first
19:29
Expertise, knowledge, your network, and then the other things will follow. Don't get misguided with chasing the other things before you've genuinely built your
19:37
buckets on experience expertise and network. And I think there's something in that, which is focus on those things if you're setting out
19:45
not necessarily the title. But if that's what you want to call yourself, then so be it
19:50
Was it always in the back of your mind that you wanted to get to this stage? Yeah, I'm digressing a lot
19:56
someone when I was at Budweiser, Anhauser-Busch, first foray into beer at 20-something after Mars, actually
20:03
Great organisation, great brand, really taught me about brand and how to drive a brand, be proud of the brand and everything that comes with it
20:11
He sat me down and said, right, what I want you to do, Marks is develop a life tree
20:15
Now, bear in mind I'm 25, I'm a life tree. What are you on about? I've got every bit of my life ahead of me
20:20
But actually what he did and he sat me down and he says, where do you want to be in your career this was
20:26
and at what age? And the age was really important because that's where we're going to end in mind
20:31
So mine at that stage was Sales Director 37, for whatever reason, by the way
20:36
Where I was then something called a National Account Manager at 25. What he said is, okay
20:41
the reason for those two extremes and the age is we need to work back to say
20:46
what are the experiences and skills and likely roles that will deliver those things
20:51
to take you from where you are to where you want to be? And the additional importance
20:56
was because of the age, he said, how long do we need to spend each of those levels of experience
21:00
to keep you on track? And it wasn't quite, I was pulling it out every week throughout my career
21:05
got to got to move on, got to move on. But it did guide me and it gave me purpose to when I moved
21:10
organisations or roles, why was I moving? Because if it wasn't keeping me online with that life tree
21:17
I either was going to have to compromise my ambition or actually I'd be keep me on track
21:21
So in answer your question, at that stage it was a sales director. I then got to that stage
21:25
slightly ahead of 37 actually. And unfortunately, I still felt I had gas in the tank
21:31
purpose to be given, help to be given, more to learn, and then I moved on from there over the last few years
21:37
Interesting. Let's move on to slightly more controversial topic, shall we? Totally wicked
21:44
Obviously, a very successful business, been around since long before vapes and cigarettes were really in the mainstream
21:50
Yes. But last few years, it's not been too far from the
21:55
news, from the headlines, very negative headlines, various reasons. Tell me about your thoughts
22:01
behind that. The perception do you think that the industry has got at the moment of whether
22:06
you think it's justified? Yeah, so I'll give you the background story. 16 years ago, a chap who's a
22:11
20-day smoker, went out to China. He was actually looking for some herbal remedies as such. So our
22:19
original business and trading name is Pillbox for that reason. He found a transformative product
22:23
for him, brought it back to Blackburn, which is where he lived, and literally passed it round
22:27
smokers in the street to say, what do you think of that? Many of them back in that era
22:32
which is the name that the business then was born with, said, wow, that's totally wicked. What is it
22:37
So actually for then, he found a transformative product. He realised to actually cut through
22:42
with this product set, he needed to create a personality and a brand. At the time, the Sex Pistols
22:47
they have a very famous album, that that font that sits behind our logo at the moment is the
22:52
Sex Pistols font. Why? Because they were standing up for anti-establishment, what they believe was
22:57
right. Join the two things together. A brand was born called Totally Wicked with a typeface that was
23:03
about standing up against government and big tobacco businesses that were unfortunately killing
23:07
two out of three long-time users. And actually a small head that we have as a symbol is the
23:12
joker. Wouldn't it be a joke if a small Blackburn business could infiltrate that scale of
23:17
effectively profit and revenue that the government and those businesses were generated
23:22
through a transformative product. So for me, long-winded answer to your question is
23:27
we've been around for a long time trying to do the right thing for the right people
23:31
with the right systems and processes to ensure these are about adult smoking cessation devices
23:36
that are proven to be the most successful or anything that's out there. It's unfortunate that in the last two years
23:41
but fortunate that them vaping, if you spotted someone with a vape about three years ago
23:45
what's that peculiar thing? Oh, you're another one of me. Yes, oh, right, how did you find it
23:50
I was a smoker, a very similar story. So unfortunately, the popularity of single-use products or commonly termed as disposable has come with benefit that now it's much more acceptable that vaping is taking place amongst adults
24:03
The unfortunate bit is the scale of the category now is such that actually people have come into the market, which I would say without that purpose, without that backstory, and effectively trying to benefit from the commercial gain of selling these quite transformative products but to a much more mainstream audience
24:20
Yeah, obviously the industry is so wide now. You know, you can get bad apples and it can spoil the barrel, can't it
24:26
And, you know, even if Totally Wicked sticks to that philosophy, the public perception of the company or the industry as a whole, it can be quite a negative one
24:36
You know, we talk about more children taking up vaping, the marketing of the vapes to children overtly
24:46
What are your thoughts on that? You know, totally wicked. Have those products been in your stores
24:52
Have you been taking them out of your stores? No. I mean, the reliance on those products in our stores
24:58
are a very small fraction of our business because we've been around for a long time
25:02
with what I'll come to is much more complicated products historically. And the benefit of single use
25:08
if given to the right adult smoker is that they're very simple
25:13
It's very easy to light a cigarette. It's very easy to get hold of a cigarette if you're an adult smoker
25:17
And actually, therefore, the simplicity and the consistency of a single-use device was transformative for some smokers
25:24
To try vaping for the first time, unfortunately in our stores, when you come in
25:28
you'll then get advice and expertise to say, that's great that you've now started your stop smoking journey
25:33
but actually here's something that is more sustainable for you in the environment. But to your very point, so have we sold them? Yes, we have
25:40
because they have a role to play for adult smokers. The challenge being is there is a huge illicit trade as well as a legitimate trade
25:48
And actually, oftenly, the cited, God forbid, cartoon characters, brightly colored being sold to use
25:54
I can spot an illegal vape from about 20 yards. And actually, the proliferation of those products in the market is huge
26:01
And often if a retailer stocks those things, that they shouldn't, they're unregulated, they shouldn't be stocking them
26:06
it shouldn't be sold. It's highly likely they will also not do the age verification protocols
26:11
So unfortunately, cometh hand in hand with the scale is, as you say, more brightly colored cartoon characters
26:18
God forbid, really emotional flavour names. And we don't believe there is a place for that in certainly the organised legitimate trade
26:25
So obviously, if switching from smoking to vaping is a healthier choice relatively
26:30
but if you've got a customer coming into Totally Wicked, who's not a vapour, not a smoker, and then taking up vaping
26:37
that's not a healthy choice, is it? And that doesn't speak to your mission statement
26:42
Correct. No, exactly so. And we talk about this a lot in our business
26:46
So I would say, I'm not trying to trivialize this, but many things will sit alongside that description you've given
26:53
Don't drink. I work for two alcohol businesses. I cannot think of any societal gain through those products that I sold
27:00
apart from me enjoying a drink with you or drink with friends but there is no societal gain through alcohol whatsoever Saturated fat sugars I worked for two businesses that sold products that heavily sat in that category widely available to children and adults and we have a huge obesity problem in this
27:16
country and diabetes, etc, etc. So for me where vaping sits is wherever your risk continuum in
27:22
your life wants to sit with those products that just mentioned or vaping, we'll advise you to
27:27
say you do know this is not risk-free. Neither of those other things. But if you are
27:31
are an 18 plus year old adult that comes into our stores and we give you that advice and
27:35
direction, but you ultimately choose to buy it. I would rather you buy it through our stores
27:40
where we're giving that right advice with the right product set, with the right direction, then I would you go and access something that's from the illegal or illicit market
27:47
Do you worry that the public perception of the vaping industry is such that now companies
27:54
like Totally Wicked are seen as the bad guys? Yeah, for sure. And the story I gave you about our logo and where we came from
28:01
I found it really powerful when I first joined the business. But actually, you look at the logo and if you don't know the story, a lot of people say
28:08
ooh, that's what that's weird type fonts. Is that a devil's head that's next to your logo
28:12
None of which are true, by the way, but I can understand why they have that impression
28:16
and probably amplified, as you say, in the media at the moment, is constant negative stories
28:21
Now we understand that and we do not want children accessing these products, let alone an adult
28:27
that we say this is not risk-free. But the challenge with that is there's only two
28:31
intent adults that can accurately cite now, because of this media frenzy, in part at least
28:37
that vaping is materially safer than smoking. And that is the fact, vaping is materially
28:42
safer than smoking. But if there's only two intents that can cite that, there's certainly
28:46
a job to do to get this narrative balanced for adult smokers benefit, but also to not enable
28:52
children to access or think that these are risk-free. Do you think that Toadlewicked over its
28:56
time periods since it was found it has done more harm than good or more good than harm
29:03
For sure, more good than harm. As I said, of all the organisations I've worked for, I do never feel as
29:09
purpose as I have in this one. Whether it's chocolate, soft drinks, beer, I cannot sit there
29:15
and look you in the eyes and say they had any societal benefit whatsoever. Can I sit here and say
29:20
we have transformed the lives of hundreds of thousands of smokers? They speak to us, they tell them
29:25
stories to us all the time. And as long as we maintain and do that in the professional
29:30
age-verified manner with the enabled people that we've got to talk to people about that advice
29:35
and expertise, I think there is nothing more positive. So how does the industry combat this narrative
29:39
then over the last couple of years? How do you change people's perceptions? Because you're still
29:44
selling a product that isn't healthy. Yeah, for sure. As I say, I would argue, it has much more
29:48
positive benefit than many of the shops that sell the majority of what's on their shells. You just
29:52
have to listen to Eddie Abu at the moment, and I think he does a pretty good job at saying when the majority of the products that are stocked in a supermarket or convenience store
30:00
certainly don't do any good for you at all. I sit as part of an association, the Independent
30:06
British FAPE trade association. I'm the chair of that organisation, and the attempt there is to
30:10
try and ensure that we galvanise the reputable industry working with, and it's been in existence
30:15
for many, many years, policy makers, regulators to ensure that we steward this sector and everything
30:20
that we've spoken about through professional businesses and trying as best we can direct those
30:26
who are not doing things professionally to enforcement agencies to try and clearly drive their
30:32
behaviour or if they need to close those businesses down. That's one small example that we do
30:36
And partly, that was the reason I'm sat here with you today, John. For me, it's yet, hopefully
30:40
I've got an interesting story to tell, but I'm prepared to talk and have an open dialogue
30:45
around the pros and cons of vaping because I think it's really important that people, hopefully on balance
30:49
go, that actually seems like a reputable business trying to do the right thing
30:53
And if there's some informative information that I can pass over, then that's in part my role to be doing
30:59
And where do you think the industry will be in the next five years or so? It's gone on an absolutely meteoric growth trajectory in the last three years, to give you a sense, the legitimate tracked markets
31:11
This is supermarkets and convenience stores. So we ignore the specialist, because that's not tracked through a house called Nielsen, is $1.9 billion
31:19
to be in washing and bathing, it was $585 million. So that's the scale of merely the supermarkets and convenience, probably double that
31:26
And you put in the e-commerce sites and the specialist vape stores and maybe double it again for the illegitimate trade
31:32
So this is huge. Do I think, we start to see it plateau
31:37
We're starting to see youth numbers drop. So Ash, Axon, Smotion Health, through a regular survey and they're starting to see access of children is reducing
31:45
Thank God. And there's more work that needs to go on there to make sure there's no children accessing it
31:49
So do I think the growth trajectory is going to be the same that it is no. Are we seeking to work with those regulators and incoming government and civil servants
31:59
to ensure that we stay on the right side of regulation to recognise this is materially safer than smoking
32:04
The 6 million smokers still out there and this is a viable if they can't go cold turkey
32:08
if they can't use over the count of medicines or similar, then this is a really viable and proven alternative
32:14
So hopefully there's still some positive work to be done. You mentioned about the illegal trade as well
32:19
Well, there's not a lot that you can do about that, isn't? There's a hell of a lot of reporting that would go on
32:24
We could walk down a street in Wilmsville or Manchester today, and I'd be able to point out an absolutely prolific number of stores
32:30
that will be selling illegal products. Unfortunately, enforcement agencies, so trading standards, have got limited resources
32:37
So first is how do we stop them coming into the country and how do we work with trading standards to target these particular stores
32:43
that are flouting the regulation that exists today? But as with anything, you know, they're dealing with Botox that's
32:49
legal, all sorts of other products at the moment, and therefore vaping is a small microcosm
32:53
of what they deal with. Do you think companies like yours should give some of your profits to these enforcement agencies
33:00
to give them more resources? There's certainly been a lot of talk about that amongst the industry to say how could
33:06
manufacturers, because lots of these products are made in China, as well as fluids made
33:10
within the UK, and or importers in the same way that we contribute to something called a
33:15
wee levy, which is about recycling and ensuring that these products are recycled
33:19
and recovered in the right way. We already contribute to that. So to your point, the industry would be open to it
33:25
I don't think we should hold all of the burden. And it's about ensuring we've got confidence that that resources are coordinated and
33:32
have got the enforcement. Because there's nothing more frustrating than reporting it, but absolutely nothing happens
33:38
But that's a challenge, as I say, for trading standards who are under-resourced. And do you vape
33:43
Is it the products that you use from Totally Wicked? Are you happy to use them
33:47
Have you taken up vaping since you joined? I was a smoker, only social though, but lots of people were, and this is the benefit of these single-use products where previously they may have just bought a 10-pack of cigarette
33:57
They are using a disposable vape, which is clearly a much safer alternative dispose of it in the right way
34:02
Preferably don't do either, but someone's substituting one for the other. I was one of those, and therefore, yes, I do vape our products, not that regularly, but I do vape them because, one, that's where I'm happy with in my life versus doing something else
34:15
But balancing it with the treadmill as well is pretty important. And do you think, you know, on the whole, from your point of view, vaping should be as socially acceptable as drinking or betting
34:28
I'd arguably say it should be more socially acceptable personally. The stigma of looking at someone who's vaping and sort of turning your nose up at them, first thing we should do is say, recognise there may have been a smoker, hopefully, and that's the majority of the journey that people should be going on
34:41
They're certainly saving the NHS millions for every one of those that transform across
34:46
they're definitely prolonging their life beyond what they were doing. But equally, for vapours, make sure you vape responsibly
34:52
You know, there's nothing worse than if you're in an outdoor area and someone sort of blowing plumes of vapour
34:57
Fortune, there's less and less of those. Just be discreet. Just do what you need to do, but just be recognising of those around you
35:04
And, you know, if a young person came to you and said, I'm interested to know about vaping, my friends are doing it
35:10
would you recommend that they did, that they took it up? Absolutely not
35:16
No. No. So as I say, the bullseye target here is a smoker, adult. Now, would we even engage with a child on any level? No, because I just don't think it's appropriate to do. Whether they're a smoker or not, I could argue with them. I'd rather you do this, but that's not my place to say. They've got to find their own way in life and they will experiment as we all did. It was certainly cigarettes, alcohol, and God forbid, drug and other abuses, I know some of those experimentation areas. I'd rather they didn't vape
35:46
but if they are going to find their way to there then hopefully they'll put it down quite quickly
35:51
Well, Marcus, thank you very much for coming to Border and uncovered today. Thank you
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