Up next in 10
Checkatrade can still do more to protect customers from rogue traders despite blocking a record number of applicants last year, its chief executive has said.
Jambu Palaniappan, speaking to Jon Robinson on this episode of City AM's interview series Boardroom Uncovered, said the home improvement platform is in the business of trust and that it forms "a core part of who we are".
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https://www.cityam.com/checkatrade-we-can-still-do-more-to-protect-customers-from-rogue-traders/
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Produced by: Jon Robinson, Emmanuel Nwosu, Joseph Curay Teneda, Joe Lee
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0:00
I'm obsessive there's a lot to do if you
0:02
weren't doing this what would you be
0:04
doing i' open a barbecue restaurant I
0:06
think there's something therapeutic
0:07
about the cooking I've never had much
0:08
time for it sometimes the thoughts about
0:10
what Will creep in and it's frustrating
0:13
cuz you don't want to be thinking about
0:14
that on a Sunday night maybe or Saturday
0:16
afternoon or even you know 10 11:00 at
0:18
night during the week is that a struggle
0:20
sometimes yeah of course I'm obsessive
0:22
there's a lot to do I love the business
0:24
there's a big opportunity I know a lot
0:27
of people are counting on us talk to me
0:28
about work from home and the policy at
0:30
Checker trade and what your thoughts on
0:32
it as well it's always in the news at
0:34
the moment what do checker trade where
0:36
from home policy yeah we're mostly in
0:37
the office these days four five days
0:39
yeah four days and um it's made a huge
0:41
difference for us uh in terms of
0:43
positivity and our you know just
0:45
describe it as the overall office
0:47
environment whenever somebody comes to
0:48
visit our office it's the first thing
0:49
they say is this feels like a kind of
0:52
preo office hello and welcome to bordom
0:55
uncovered from City am with me John
0:57
Robinson my guest for this episode is
0:59
the CEO of Checker trade Jambo palen
1:02
appan after taking on his first
1:04
leadership role at an early age the CEO
1:06
has held top jobs all across the world
1:09
in a career that's taking him from
1:10
Silicon Valley to portsman headquartered
1:13
Checker trade via Dubai but with the
1:15
issue of fake reviews and Rogue Trad are
1:17
still hitting UK customers how is
1:19
Checker trade attempting to stop Cowboy
1:21
Builders and maintain trust in an online
1:24
Marketplace without any further delay
1:27
let's dive in well jamby thank you very
1:29
much for coming on board un covered it's
1:30
great to have you thank you for having
1:31
me SP I've got to start with the issue
1:33
of trust you're in trust business it
1:35
seems to me people come to your website
1:38
and trust that the reviews and the
1:40
trades people that you've got involved
1:41
in your company are trustworthy aspace
1:45
um how does that sit with you that must
1:46
be quite a difficult thing to maintain
1:48
trust is really a core part of who we
1:50
are if you think about the foundation
1:53
story of our business Checker trade was
1:55
founded in 1998 after a tornado tore
1:58
through a town in West Sussex and town
2:00
was infiltrated with Rogue trades and
2:03
our business started as a directory of
2:05
trusted trades whose work could be
2:06
verified and provided quality service
2:09
and 26 years later uh while we've
2:12
evolved to be a digital business that
2:14
Foundation of trust is really critical
2:16
we go through a 12-step vetting check
2:19
for all members that join the platform
2:21
um we denied over 1300 applications last
2:24
year for members who tried to get on the
2:26
platform and didn't meet our standards
2:28
and um that trust piece is a really
2:30
critical component of why consumers
2:32
trust us but also why quality trades
2:34
people want to be members of the
2:35
platform because Road triggers do get
2:37
through you know you've had so many
2:39
people be rejected but there are still
2:42
stories out there of Rogue Traders being
2:44
on the platform and then taking
2:46
advantage of of people in the UK how do
2:48
you combat that yeah so I think it's
2:50
important to remember the scale of the
2:52
platform over 2.2 million consumers used
2:55
check trade last year uh and uh for us
2:58
that trust is really important part of
3:00
why they use it we have a couple of
3:03
mechanisms in place to help support
3:05
customers in the rare event that
3:06
something does go wrong the first is um
3:09
we have customer support team that is
3:11
available and can support consumers
3:13
through those challenges that they have
3:15
and in the vast majority of situations
3:17
the work is rectified right um and I
3:19
think that's important because if you
3:21
get a recommendation from your
3:23
neighborhood WhatsApp group your
3:24
neighbor is not going to do that for you
3:26
right the second is we have an actual
3:28
Financial guarant
3:30
as part of jobs that are done on the
3:31
check of trade platform it's a th000
3:33
pound guarantee for worksmanship and
3:35
quality that will help consumers in the
3:38
event that does something does go wrong
3:39
and that's something that we have enough
3:41
confidence in the platform And Trades
3:43
people on the platform in to actually uh
3:45
support directly and then the third is
3:48
in the rare event that something does go
3:50
wrong we help consumers with the process
3:53
uh in order to file the appropriate
3:55
claims uh and support them in that
3:57
transition is there more we can do yes
4:00
but I think it's important to also
4:01
realize that um the scale of the
4:04
platform is is an important part of um
4:08
how we can help support consumers
4:10
through those challenges and and
4:12
certainly the best place uh for
4:14
consumers to feel protected that's
4:15
really interesting that there's a
4:16
financial element of this because you
4:18
know we got our house repointed last
4:20
year and the Builder just didn't finish
4:23
the job yeah 95% of it yes five the 5%
4:26
of it he he didn't do and we got him you
4:29
know through a neighbors Facebook group
4:32
basically and uh good reviews from the
4:34
local community but didn't it was a bit
4:36
of a nightmare in the end it's
4:38
interesting that if we'd have gone
4:39
through Checker trade that might have
4:41
been a different story 100% And I think
4:43
part of it is the trades people care
4:45
deeply about their review score they
4:47
care deeply about the history of reviews
4:50
it's their pride but also their
4:51
livelihood and so their incentives are
4:53
to ensure that jobs are done right again
4:56
in a rare event that something goes
4:57
wrong majority of the time people come
5:00
out and fix it themselves because they
5:01
care deeply about that feedback loop and
5:04
their
5:05
livelihood it's not going to be lost on
5:07
the viewers and and the people listening
5:09
um that you're not from Sussex you're
5:11
not from these Shores originally uh tell
5:13
me about your childhood growing up in in
5:16
the states yeah it was um uh a really
5:19
interesting journey to come here uh with
5:22
you all today I'm originally from San
5:24
Francisco from the Bay Area uh that's
5:26
where I was born and raised my parents
5:28
originally from India moved to the US to
5:30
study they're both Engineers my mom's a
5:33
software developer my dad works in
5:35
semiconductor manufacturing not a lot of
5:37
people's moms are software developers
5:39
and I think I thought everybody's mom
5:41
was a software developer if that makes
5:42
sense um but it really shaped my view of
5:45
how I think about um what is possible
5:49
Right to grow up in that environment at
5:51
that time where the wave of the internet
5:54
and everything that came from it um was
5:56
really built and I think what it really
5:59
taught me was a couple of things one is
6:01
I'm exceptionally grateful to my parents
6:03
uh for the uh the incredible sacrifice
6:07
that they went through um to move to the
6:10
US and um help us understand the
6:12
potential of um of ourselves but also I
6:16
think to really see the powerful
6:19
implication of technology in
6:21
accelerating our lives uh and improving
6:25
uh how we live them and I think that's a
6:27
really important principle for me I
6:29
ended up here in the UK very
6:32
circuitously uh through uh initially a
6:34
role at Uber where I was leading Uber's
6:37
International expansion into emerging
6:38
markets and then uh LED Uber's uh
6:41
business um in the Middle East and
6:43
Africa and then eventually uh moved to
6:45
Europe to run Uber Eats uh in this part
6:48
of the world uh I've got an English wife
6:50
which is also a big part of the real
6:51
reason um and uh we've got two two
6:54
daughters as well that uh have London
6:56
accents so every morning I still have
6:58
that bizarre moment of hang on how did
7:00
this happen uh but this is home and um
7:02
I'm really grateful for it I mean
7:04
talking about the US what do you think
7:07
the US is doing better than the UK right
7:10
now I think for me the thing that um I
7:13
think I notice in terms of where Britain
7:17
can improve is around much more optimism
7:21
in terms of what's possible right
7:23
there's an incredible education system
7:25
here there's incredible uh ambition uh
7:28
and I think there's a lot of what makes
7:31
great foundations of a growth economy uh
7:34
I spent some time mentoring students in
7:37
East London at a school and what I find
7:40
is over the five years or so that I've
7:42
mentored those students uh at the
7:44
beginning they all wanted to be Bankers
7:46
right they thought that was the kind of
7:48
goal over time their Ambitions have
7:51
evolved they're really interested in
7:52
technology and Entrepreneurship and
7:54
working at check trade that's great I'm
7:56
sure some I'm sure some of them will
7:57
join sometime um but I think that's
8:00
great to see that Evolution and I think
8:02
my question is how can um all of us
8:06
business government schools support that
8:09
Evolution towards creation as really the
8:13
goal um versus extraction right and I
8:16
think for me that optimism the ambition
8:20
that Relentless positivity is a really
8:22
key part of what's required to run any
8:24
business um but I think is also uh
8:26
something that we could benefit more
8:28
from what do you think about the UK
8:30
government's growth agenda I think it's
8:33
a tough situation right and I think
8:35
there are many factors that have
8:36
contributed to it that are all conflated
8:38
together um my sense is that uh folks
8:41
are very well intentioned right and
8:43
we've had really positive engagement
8:44
with government about what the potential
8:47
levers are but I think there's still
8:49
uncertainty in terms of the impact of
8:51
those levers right and I think it's
8:53
really important to bring Clarity
8:55
particularly to small business if I
8:56
think about our members and the type of
8:58
business that that they run and
9:00
represent uh Soul Trader uh who installs
9:05
um uh you know guttering in the Midlands
9:08
or a small gas engineering shop in
9:10
Portsmouth um they need support right uh
9:14
things like the National Insurance
9:16
change were impactful for those uh for
9:18
those sorts of small businesses and so
9:21
um for me I think there is more to do to
9:24
actually uh reduce barriers to growth uh
9:27
particularly for small business and
9:28
that's something that we're
9:29
um really an active dialogue with uh
9:32
governmental how would you reduce those
9:34
barriers I think there's two really
9:37
important principles that touch our
9:38
industry one is around planning
9:41
permission and rules and really allowing
9:44
for uh more growth in terms of sectors
9:48
right uh I redid the windows in my house
9:51
not that long ago when I go to quote to
9:53
do them and three check trade yeah well
9:56
this was before I worked there and uh
9:58
this was uh uh what I was surprised
10:00
about was um the highest EPC rated
10:05
windows I could get for my home were C
10:07
rated windows and I asked why and the
10:10
reason was that the council rules
10:12
actually prohibited more energy
10:15
efficient windows from being installed
10:17
because they went against certain look
10:19
and feel rules right and I don't live in
10:21
a listed property or anything like that
10:24
so I thought that was um interesting and
10:28
uh you know my energy bills are higher
10:30
for it and so I think there's a lot to
10:32
do around planning regulation and
10:34
liberalization is great to see that the
10:35
government's tackling that but I think
10:37
there's more to do there I think the
10:39
second big area for Us is around um the
10:43
acute trade shortage in Britain right
10:45
Britain needs about a million new trades
10:47
to enter the sector over the next decade
10:50
Plus in order to just meet existing
10:52
projections of demand that's because of
10:55
retirements people who've left because
10:57
of brexit Etc and um I think there's
11:00
still more government can do to support
11:02
that moving the apprenticeship Levy
11:04
towards much more of a skills-based
11:06
program uh and allowing a mechanism for
11:09
businesses to be easier to start in the
11:11
trade sector um and I think those two
11:13
things can be big levers but they do
11:15
require belief and commitment to get
11:17
through you worked all across the world
11:19
in so many different senior leadership
11:20
roles what's the difference in between
11:23
doing business in the UK to doing
11:25
business in the US I think there's a lot
11:27
of similarities right cultur and in
11:30
terms of um how uh business and uh teams
11:35
operate I think there's actually a very
11:37
unique difference that does impact
11:39
things from a macro level down and
11:41
that's actually on the Capital Market
11:43
liquidity so if you think about
11:45
particularly stamp Duty on shares that
11:48
actually disincentivizes a liquid
11:50
Capital Market and I know there's
11:51
broader questions right now about
11:53
Britain's Capital markets and how to
11:54
encourage Great British and European
11:57
businesses to list here but many of them
11:59
are listing in New York or uh in
12:02
Amsterdam or other places and I think
12:04
there is a relationship between um those
12:07
rules and the liquidity of the capital
12:09
markets that um uh are clearly
12:13
interrelated and I think important to
12:15
resolve if we want to create an
12:17
environment where uh you know British
12:19
pension managers are investing more in
12:21
British assets would you be calling on
12:23
the government then to to reform those
12:25
rules well I think there's uh there's a
12:27
big opportunity there right uh to help
12:30
improve what Capital Market liquidity
12:32
looks like and also to support uh more
12:35
active um interest in listing in Britain
12:39
okay brilliant I'm interested Jambu um
12:42
what type of leader are you does it come
12:44
naturally to you are you somebody who
12:47
who shouts a lot in meetings do you you
12:49
hold people to account or are you sort
12:51
of more um maybe cabinet rather than
12:54
presidential um I think for me my
12:57
leadership style is evolved right it's
12:59
evolved as a result of the businesses
13:01
I've worked in the people I've worked
13:02
with taken everything from uh I've taken
13:05
little pits from from every environment
13:07
I've been in I've been in deeply
13:09
technical product oriented businesses
13:11
I've been in high growth businesses I've
13:14
been a software investor uh and now I'm
13:16
uh really fortunate to be leading
13:18
Checker trade and I guess um the summary
13:21
of how I think about leadership is
13:22
really around two core principles the
13:25
first is to be very very empowering
13:29
right and very empowering of a team
13:31
because I think my view is that when you
13:33
hire great people we've got an
13:34
outstanding team in ch trade that's come
13:36
together uh over the last 18 months
13:38
people that have worked in the business
13:39
for many years and people who joined um
13:42
as I joined and and more recently that
13:45
group is really really um exceptional
13:49
they hold themselves to a high standard
13:51
and I think the best thing I can do is
13:53
give direction and um Empower them to go
13:57
and do those great things there's second
13:59
part to it though and this is a bit
14:01
controversial but I think there's been
14:03
this perception that leaders are out of
14:05
the detail right if you're the leader in
14:07
the presidential format you are floating
14:10
above but I think for me the thing that
14:13
I've learned is the best leaders know
14:15
exactly when to get into the detail they
14:18
are deeply obsessed with customer
14:20
experience the technology product we
14:22
deliver how we deliver it the feedback
14:24
that we hear and how we can iterate and
14:27
I think that principle is to the ability
14:30
to then take that approach and allow you
14:33
to move at a velocity that is required
14:35
in an increasingly Speedy World um and
14:39
so I was never somebody that you know
14:42
had this ambition to be a CEO um but um
14:45
again very very fortunate to have had uh
14:48
incredible mentors people that I've
14:49
worked with colleagues and peers who've
14:51
really helped me learn um how uh my own
14:55
style has evolved I also think the big
14:57
thing that's probably changed my
14:58
Approach is because becoming a parent
15:00
okay my daughters are five and two and
15:02
that's made me infinitely more patient
15:05
understanding also makes you really
15:07
manage your time well because you know
15:09
that um uh they'll remember right uh
15:12
when you're not
15:17
around we're going to do some quick fire
15:20
questions now six quick fire questions
15:22
um to see uh what your reactions are and
15:25
then we're going to compare those to the
15:26
previous guests guest we've got in the
15:28
future so first one um what was your
15:30
first job was a waiter at an Indian
15:32
restaurant who inspires you my parents
15:35
my kids if you had to and you had to
15:38
appoint a celebrity to your board who
15:41
would it be and why does it have to be a
15:43
living no I'm uh always amazed by
15:46
Charlie Munger who was Warren Buffett's
15:48
business partner I think for two reasons
15:49
one is really deep intellectual
15:52
curiosity yeah which I think is the most
15:53
important thing in a board member and
15:55
two is a desire to seek the truth what's
15:58
the best thing about your job uh
16:01
interaction with our team and customers
16:04
and if you weren't doing this if you
16:05
could possibly imagine what would you be
16:08
doing I'd open a barbecue restaurant
16:11
we'll definitely come back to that um
16:14
this question if if you were PM for the
16:16
day what would you do but maybe if you
16:17
were presidents for the day what would
16:19
you do I'll take the PM answer if that's
16:22
okay um I think for me it would be the
16:24
planning piece I think there's so much
16:26
that follows on from that and if you can
16:28
do that and you can really bring that um
16:31
uh into a place that's PR growth it
16:33
would have a huge knock on effect on
16:36
economic growth employment and addition
16:39
you sure you don't want to answer the
16:40
president question pass today you can do
16:42
more than wel to we'll hold the whole
16:44
episode absolutely fine tell me about
16:46
this restaurant then I don't know I
16:47
think there's something therapeutic
16:49
about the cooking I've never had much
16:50
time for it but uh I missed the uh the
16:54
two foods that I missed from the US
16:56
they've gotten a lot better in Britain
16:57
over the last uh years since I've been
16:59
here is uh barbecue and the Mexican food
17:02
yeah and I think maybe there's a bit
17:03
more to do there that's interesting okay
17:05
well we'll see if you open that a
17:08
successful chain of restaurants in a few
17:09
years let's talk about that work life
17:11
balance then because it must be
17:13
incredibly difficult because you've got
17:14
a job that must be all consuming but
17:17
then You' got two kids and a wife at
17:18
home how do you manage that I think
17:21
there's two principles that are really
17:22
important to me one is I'm Relentless
17:25
about um time management and
17:27
prioritization um really really
17:29
important to me that uh people are
17:31
prepared for meetings don't have
17:33
unnecessary meetings really focus my
17:35
time and structure my time in a
17:37
particular way I spend usually Mondays
17:39
on our internal operating mechanism
17:41
Tuesdays with customers Wednesdays with
17:43
our product team Thursdays and Fridays
17:45
wrapping up and catching up with others
17:48
in the industry or um or board members
17:51
uh and I find that structure really
17:53
helpful um this the second is um work
17:57
expands to the the time you give it and
18:00
I find that flexibility around when and
18:03
how you think about it is important so
18:05
it's not really balance for me I enjoy
18:08
what I do um but I also know when it's
18:10
important to be present for my kids at
18:12
their school events or at bath time um
18:14
and also when it's important to be
18:16
flexible with that the the last piece is
18:19
um I found the fitness to be really
18:20
important really and uh there's almost a
18:23
direct relationship between the amount
18:24
of time I've spent in the gym that week
18:26
and the mood that I'm in I'm an early
18:29
and uh early to the gym and that makes a
18:32
big big difference in terms of managing
18:34
it I find in my job you know my life I
18:37
can be doing something to be fully
18:39
present in that away from work but
18:40
sometimes the thoughts about work will
18:42
creep in and it's frustrating because
18:44
you don't want to be thinking about that
18:45
on a Sunday night maybe or Saturday
18:48
afternoon um or even you know 10 11 o'cl
18:50
at night during the week do you is that
18:53
a struggle sometimes yeah of course yeah
18:55
I find it a struggle yeah of course it's
18:57
I'm obsessive there's L to do I love the
19:00
business there's a big opportunity I
19:02
know a lot of people are counting on us
19:04
to support um them whether the consumer
19:07
trades people um and I feel that
19:09
responsibility very
19:10
heavily talk to me about work from home
19:13
and the policy at Checker trade and what
19:15
your thoughts on it as well it's always
19:16
in the news at the moment um what do
19:19
checker trades work from home policy
19:21
yeah we're mostly in the office these
19:22
days four five days yeah four days and
19:25
um it's made a huge difference for us uh
19:27
in terms of positiv ity and our you know
19:30
just describe it as the overall office
19:31
environment whenever somebody comes to
19:33
visit our office it's the first thing
19:34
they say is this feels like a kind of
19:37
preo office and and Vibe obviously we're
19:40
flexible right I think that's really
19:41
important to me when you've got things
19:43
you need to do for your children or
19:45
medical appointments or things you know
19:47
of course right um make sure that you do
19:49
those things um but I think it's uh it's
19:52
the evolution of of where we're headed
19:54
so you're absolutely fine with four or
19:56
five days with a bit of flex ibility
19:59
that sits well with you as as a as a
20:00
leader yeah I think the flexibility is
20:02
key right and I think at the end of the
20:04
day um that culture and what you build
20:06
is really important so um at the that's
20:10
sort of how I think about it we've got
20:11
flexibility around different types of
20:13
roles that are more Specialist of course
20:14
that are more remote oriented um and I
20:16
think that delineation is important as
20:18
well so there are some specialist
20:19
engineering roles for example that are
20:21
remote and that's okay cast your mind
20:24
forward maybe about five years what are
20:27
the main challenges do you think that
20:28
check traes going to be facing in 2030
20:32
if I take a step back um this is a
20:35
massive industry the home repairs and
20:37
Improvement sector 2.4% of GDP employs
20:41
two million people and is still
20:43
relatively undi right and I'm not saying
20:46
AI is going to fix your boiler or lay
20:48
your carpet but I think there is a role
20:50
for technology to play in accelerating
20:52
that transition so imagine a world where
20:55
each home in the UK has a report that
20:58
allows for you as a consumer to know how
21:00
to make that home more energy efficient
21:02
well we've produced that now and that
21:03
exists and any consumer can go and check
21:06
out the check and Trade Home Health
21:08
Report to do that and I think that's
21:10
just the start of what the intersection
21:12
of Technology um Ai and really great
21:15
quality trades people can be and so
21:18
there are areas like uh you know imagine
21:21
a world where a drone could help you
21:24
understand what's wrong with your roof
21:26
and a great trades person could come and
21:28
help you fix it um and I think that as
21:31
we think about core areas of belief like
21:35
the green energy transition or how to
21:36
rebuild the housing stock in Britain um
21:39
we have a really important role to play
21:41
there I also think we have a role to
21:43
play in helping make trades people's
21:45
lives easier and how they run their
21:47
business we've got amazing trades people
21:49
with amazing Stories We we ran our first
21:51
Checker trade Awards last year
21:53
recognizing some of the best and
21:54
brightest across Britain and the stories
21:56
of the work that they did the charities
21:58
supported how they got things done for
22:00
customers was really inspiring but we
22:03
also know that trades people have a lot
22:04
to do they are time poor they do admin
22:07
in the evening and the weekends with
22:08
their partners and we can help them in
22:10
how they run their businesses not just
22:12
how they generate leads for their
22:13
business um so that's a really inspiring
22:16
and exciting future and uh certainly
22:18
plenty to do yeah absolutely I've going
22:20
to put this scenario to you Jan I've uh
22:23
come to your offices I'm coming for an
22:25
interview um middle management let's say
22:28
what are the three main qualities you're
22:31
looking for in me that will make me a
22:33
good employee in your eyes um I think
22:36
for me it's uh
22:38
resilience comfort with
22:40
ambiguity um and optimism and I think if
22:43
you have those three things you can
22:45
learn almost everything else talk to me
22:47
about comfort with ambiguity what do you
22:50
mean by that I think uh we are a Growth
22:52
Company a company that's also evolving
22:55
right taking this great history that we
22:57
have and found that we built and
22:59
evolving into more of a technology
23:01
oriented uh
23:03
Marketplace and uh part of our role is
23:06
to help really Define what that can be
23:09
in a customer Centric way and so if what
23:12
you're looking for is perfect clarity on
23:14
what to do or how to do it or what
23:17
success looks like I find that that is
23:20
there are places where that's great
23:22
where there's a written Playbook on
23:23
exactly what to do and exactly how to do
23:25
everything um but that I find um is not
23:31
helpful in a company that is in the kind
23:34
of growth trajectory that we're on and
23:36
so that comfort with ambiguity I think
23:38
is a really critical component to being
23:40
in a growth business and being in a tech
23:42
business that's really interesting and
23:43
finally final question um what does it
23:46
take in your eyes to be a good
23:50
CEO um I uh I work with an executive
23:53
coach who's been an incredibly helpful
23:55
mentor to me um and I think for me uh
24:00
you've got to have really two things one
24:03
is you've got to have a really deep
24:04
passion for the product problems and
24:07
team that you're uh working with because
24:09
I think other if you don't it's um it's
24:12
it's tough I think probably more
24:14
critically it's this um real optimism
24:19
and positivity that is required because
24:22
everybody is going to look to you and
24:23
understand how you're doing how you're
24:25
feeling is a reflection of how the
24:27
business is going so there are many
24:28
different personality traits and
24:30
character types and people who are Broad
24:32
and people who are narrow and people who
24:34
are more financially minded and people
24:35
who are more product minded I think many
24:37
people can do it um but I think those uh
24:40
those two things I think from a uh a
24:43
values perspective are really critical
24:45
brilliant Jan thank you very much for
24:46
your time thank you really enjoyed it
24:48
cheers
24:50
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