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Head of New Product Development at Myprotein, Paul Smith-Johnson and Dr Leigh Breen discuss the importance of muscle health and the role of nutrition and exercise in maintaining it. Leigh, a professor of translational muscle physiology, emphasises the significance of muscle for mobility, metabolic regulation, and immune function.
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0:00
Hi, I'm Paul Smith Johnson. I'm head of
0:02
product innovation. Here with Professor
0:04
Lee Breen, one of the performance
0:05
adviserss at My Protein.
0:07
Hello, I'm Lee Breen. I'm a professor of
0:09
translational muscle physiology based in
0:11
the diabetes research center at the
0:13
University of Leicester. I'm interested
0:14
in how skeletal muscle remodels in in
0:16
health and disease and how we can use
0:18
exercise and nutrition to to modify this
0:21
response and promote muscle health
0:22
across the life course. Can you tell me
0:24
a bit about your experience and and what
0:27
you've been doing and kind of tell me a
0:29
bit about your career so far?
0:30
Yeah, sure. So, I have um about 20 years
0:33
just shy of 20 years of experience as as
0:35
a physiologist. Spent some time overseas
0:37
working in cutting edge labs um using
0:39
really sophisticated techniques to
0:40
measure muscle metabolism in humans and
0:42
and especially in the context of aging
0:44
and obesity and then brought all of that
0:46
back to the UK. spent 12 years working
0:48
at the University of Birmingham uh and
0:50
then recently moved over to the
0:51
University of Leicester where I'm
0:52
focused on questions around aging and
0:54
obesity.
0:54
As a business, my protein where one of
0:57
our big things that we we sell to
0:59
customers is the ability to to use
1:00
nutrition to to recover muscle and and
1:03
grow muscle. I guess from your
1:05
perspective, why is muscle so important
1:07
for health?
1:08
Yeah. Wow. It's a big question.
1:11
And usually I would do that academic
1:12
thing of saying, "Hey, well, it
1:14
depends." Yeah.
1:15
And and flip the question, but yeah,
1:16
it's the um there's there's debate about
1:18
whether the skin or or your skeletal
1:20
muscle is the is the largest largest or
1:22
organ in the body. And so I guess when
1:23
we think of muscle, we think firstly
1:25
about mobility, locomotion, and
1:27
function. It's it's key. It's key for
1:28
those tasks. Um we've also become aware
1:31
over over years that that muscle um is
1:33
more of an endocrine organ as well. So
1:36
um it plays a really key role in
1:37
regulating a number of vital metabolic
1:40
processes for for human health. Um it
1:42
also um can has the has the ability to
1:44
to to cross talk and communicate with
1:46
other tissues in the organs in the body
1:48
as well especially with with exercise.
1:49
Muscle releases factors that can help
1:51
regulate metabolism in in other tissues.
1:53
So it's really key and especially in
1:55
times of of what we refer to as
1:56
catabolic crisis. So um that's when
1:59
we're when we're ill or injured certain
2:01
um stages of the life course muscle
2:03
becomes really valuable then it's this
2:04
important storage reservoir of all these
2:07
these these key nutrients but especially
2:08
amino acids. And so when we need an
2:11
added supply of amino acids in order to
2:12
to to support immune function or wound
2:14
healing or uh recovery from from ill
2:17
health, muscle is able to break down and
2:19
provide those amino acids and to to to
2:21
generate building blocks or or provide a
2:22
new energy source to support. So um
2:24
yeah, it's it's more than just
2:26
locomotion and movement um strength and
2:28
power. It's uh yeah vital to to our
2:30
overall metabolic health. So I naturally
2:33
I I have a lot of family and friends who
2:35
ask me for advice and and I've got
2:37
family and friends who potentially don't
2:39
take their kind of their strength
2:40
training quite as seriously as I do. And
2:42
I don't think everyone needs to to go to
2:43
the gym six days a week to to actually
2:45
maintain health. Is it fair to say that
2:48
it's important to prioritize building
2:50
muscle at an early age to make sure that
2:52
you have that longevity? Um and is is it
2:55
possible to to build muscle despite
2:58
getting older?
2:59
Yeah, it's it's a great question. So I
3:00
think the the the preference would be to
3:03
to start at a younger age and and build
3:05
that reserve of muscle mass. So we often
3:07
say it's um it's effectively like a like
3:09
a bank account, right? You you you want
3:11
to save for a rainy day for that
3:12
catastrophic event. That means you have
3:13
to spend spend a lot of money. It's the
3:15
same for muscle mass really. If you if
3:17
you build a healthy kind of bank account
3:18
of muscle mass when the rainy day comes
3:20
and you really need muscle to support
3:22
support your overall health, it's there
3:24
and you you've put in the hard work.
3:26
That doesn't mean to say that you you
3:27
can't still get really significant
3:29
benefits even at an older age if you've
3:30
never been a strength trainer at another
3:32
point in your life course as well. So,
3:34
it's possible to still gain appreciable
3:36
amounts of of muscle mass, strength, and
3:38
power even when you start in middle
3:40
middle and older age as well. And you
3:41
can potentially reverse some of the the
3:43
the harmful consequences of of muscle
3:45
aging that start to occur. So, when
3:47
people start to feel weak um frailer as
3:49
they move kind of to middle age and and
3:51
towards retirement, they might think,
3:53
"Oh, well, you know, I've lost that
3:54
window of opportunity now." this
3:56
strength training really isn't for me,
3:57
but you can reverse an awful lot of that
3:59
if you start even even at a later time
4:01
course. But of course, yeah, the optimal
4:02
strategy would be to to to start at a
4:04
younger age and build that healthy bank
4:06
account. Yeah.
4:07
Yeah. It's it's very um in my eyes, it's
4:09
it's quite difficult to to motivate
4:11
people for for the rainy day. You know,
4:14
a lot of young people get into exercise
4:16
because of how it makes them look and
4:17
feel in the short term. Um but it's very
4:20
difficult for people to kind of think
4:21
about the long term of kind of what what
4:24
you do today and how that will benefit
4:26
you in 30 40 even 50 years.
4:29
Um but I that's just the way the way it
4:31
is.
4:32
I mean I irrespective of of someone in
4:35
their 20s the the motivations for for
4:37
regular resistance or strength training
4:39
I think as long as they are if they're
4:40
building muscle mass and strength that
4:42
maybe it's for aesthetic reasons or
4:43
competition purposes and enhanced
4:45
performance. um the the health benefits
4:48
will come later on. So there's an
4:49
appreciation as as people I can say this
4:51
from firsthand experience as you as you
4:53
move through your 30s and into into your
4:54
40s all of a sudden the it becomes less
4:56
about um optimizing physique and and
4:59
maximizing performance and actually more
5:01
about maintaining and potentially
5:02
improving what you've got and and um and
5:05
being able to to age healthily, right?
5:07
to to to be able to chase your kids
5:08
around and to be able to function with
5:10
independence and um and maybe at my age
5:12
you start to see your parents getting
5:14
older and frailer as well and and
5:16
there's a little bit of a warning sign
5:17
there, right? That you want to try and
5:18
avoid some of those consequences. So, um
5:20
yeah, the mindset shifts the longer
5:22
you're in it, but yeah, I think
5:23
irrespective of the of the reasons, the
5:25
motivators, uh getting to the gym and
5:27
building strength and muscle mass at a
5:29
younger age is is is a smart a smart
5:31
strategy.
5:32
What what's your view on on strength
5:34
training from a very early age? What
5:36
what does the science say about people
5:38
starting strength training I don't know
5:41
10 12 well well beyond what people
5:43
traditionally think of you shouldn't
5:44
really start strength training until
5:46
you're over 18 for example. Yeah, I mean
5:49
well well the the the evidence says um
5:51
perfectly safe in addition and a number
5:54
of challenges perhaps in doing this
5:55
responsibly. So so strength and
5:57
conditioning work with with children
6:00
teenagers is is more challenging for a
6:02
number of reasons and um safety is first
6:05
and foremost right so qualified
6:06
instructor SNC coach needs to be present
6:09
and there are experts available who who
6:10
who tailor their training to to um
6:14
younger trainers as well. So that's
6:16
first and foremost and I think really
6:17
careful monitoring around excessive
6:19
training volumes in children is key as
6:21
well in order to support healthy
6:22
development. But the messages are all
6:24
generally very very positive.
6:25
Can you explain why it's important to to
6:28
combine both resistance exercise and
6:30
protein? I I believe that they both have
6:32
quite similar signaling factors but um
6:36
but when combined together that actually
6:39
optimizes the the outcome.
6:41
Yeah, that's it's a great question. So
6:43
they generally considered the the two
6:45
main anabolic or or growth growth
6:48
stimuli for muscle resistance exercise
6:50
and and and protein nutrition and amino
6:52
acids.
6:53
Um without doubt resistance exercises
6:56
provides the biggest stimulus and the
6:58
strongest signal for for a muscle growth
7:00
remodeling uh remodeling response. But
7:03
uh research from the the the mid1 1990s
7:05
demonstrated that actually a source of
7:07
of of amino acids so the the building
7:10
blocks of of of muscle protein are
7:12
required to to enhance that response as
7:14
well. So after a demanding bout of
7:16
resistance exercise kind of high volume
7:18
lots of sets repetitions muscle protein
7:20
synthesis is is increased really
7:22
substantially. Um and when you consume
7:24
adequate levels of protein nutrition you
7:26
get you get a syn synergistic effect on
7:28
that as well. So a protein richch meal
7:29
in the hours after after a workout can
7:31
can enhance that response. And
7:33
and what that does overall is it shifts
7:35
our muscle into a state of positive net
7:36
protein balance. So we when we think
7:39
about muscle growth, we have to think
7:40
about synthesis and breakdown. How those
7:42
two processes offset one another. And
7:44
the difference between the two gives us
7:45
an overall balance.
7:46
In order to build muscle over time, we
7:48
need a positive net protein balance. And
7:50
the intake of a protein richch diet um
7:53
to provide the amino acids to enhance
7:55
that exercise response is really
7:56
important in promoting that positive net
7:58
balance. And it's the effectively as if
8:00
we repeat that over days, months, years,
8:03
that's the the the metabolic basis
8:05
through which we build we build new
8:06
muscle.
8:07
You're almost like banking more than
8:09
you're spending.
8:10
Yeah.
8:10
Yeah. So an exercise muscle makes more
8:12
use of the amino acids you consume from
8:14
your protein as well. So that that
8:16
exercise muscle is that after the
8:18
session is is really responsive to the
8:19
amino acids that come from the protein
8:21
you need. It takes more of them in and
8:22
uses them more for growth remodeling
8:24
processes. So it's a yeah, it's a great
8:26
time to to consume protein to support
8:27
that process.
8:28
I um maybe I'm just a bit nerdy, but I I
8:31
kind of love how simple it is in the
8:33
sense that your body is is at one stage
8:35
breaking itself down and building itself
8:37
up at the same time.
8:38
So we're sat here, we're both doing
8:40
that.
8:40
Absolutely. Um, and it's just just the
8:42
combination of of nutrition and exercise
8:44
is what helps shift the scales ever so
8:47
slightly.
8:48
It's never an on-off switch. It's more
8:49
of a dim switch. So, these processes are
8:51
always to some degree turn turned up or
8:53
down, but they're always on. That's
8:55
that's that's the constant. Um, and
8:56
you're right, when we wake up in the
8:57
morning first thing, we've maybe we've
8:59
not consumed food for 10 12 hours.
9:01
We're generally our muscles are
9:03
considered to be in in a catabolic state
9:04
because breakdown processes are really
9:06
active and synthesis levels are
9:08
relatively low. Um and then we consume a
9:10
well ideally we consume some some
9:12
protein with our breakfast and we all of
9:13
a sudden we shift we shift that
9:15
response. So it's um yeah I mean I guess
9:17
the way we describe it is relatively
9:19
simple but you can imagine over the
9:20
course of the day the shift in these
9:22
anabolic and catabolic processes is is
9:24
really quite complex and very
9:25
individualized as well. Um there are
9:27
also interactions with things like the
9:29
the quality of our sleep, stress,
9:31
movement, all of these things can can
9:33
influence the the magnitude of those
9:35
responses in the muscles as well. So um
9:37
yeah it's we give a simple description
9:39
for it but but it's it's highly
9:41
individual.
9:41
Of course.
9:42
You mentioned there that that overnight
9:44
you go a prolonged period of time
9:46
without any protein feeding.
9:49
Can you can you give some advice to
9:51
someone who potentially trains in the
9:53
morning when they train first thing
9:55
before work? Is there what nutritional
9:59
like aids or foods or supplements should
10:01
someone consider before training if if
10:03
any?
10:04
Yeah, it's a great question. And um I
10:05
think the first thing I would say is
10:07
that that if if people train in a fasted
10:09
state first thing in the morning before
10:10
they've had before they've consumed a
10:13
breakfast that's not necessarily an
10:14
issue an issue from a muscle building
10:16
perspective. So you don't need to worry
10:17
that hey I'm training fasted therefore
10:19
when I eat afterwards there's going to
10:21
be a problem or my my muscle building
10:22
potentially is going to be going to be
10:24
impaired. That doesn't appear to be the
10:25
case. Now yeah the advice generally
10:26
would be to to to consume a protein
10:29
richch breakfast. And by protein rich
10:31
what we're we're generally talking about
10:32
um would be about uh 0.3 gram per
10:36
kilogram of protein for your your body
10:38
weight. So um for a person weighing um
10:41
80 kilos that's like 32 33 grams of
10:44
protein I think
10:45
window right so people talk about the
10:47
anabolic window as being if you don't
10:48
consume your your kind of protein richch
10:50
meal within 30 minutes of a workout
10:51
you've lost you've lost your gains for
10:53
the day right and you got to wait till
10:54
the next day to to do all that again but
10:56
it's more of an open barn door than a
10:58
kind of closed narrow window it's it's
10:59
open for we know at least 24 hours so
11:02
what that tells us is that it's not just
11:03
the protein nutrition you consume in the
11:05
early window after exercise that's
11:06
important but what you consume with
11:09
meals throughout and snacks throughout
11:10
the rest of the day.
11:11
And it's important to to remember as
11:13
well that the the muscle's response,
11:15
this anabolic growth response to the
11:17
protein you consume is a transient
11:19
response kind of up and down within
11:20
several hours. Hence why repeated
11:22
consumption of protein richch meals
11:24
every generally every four to five hours
11:26
I think throughout the day, possibly a
11:27
mid-meal snack as well is a way to keep
11:29
those protein amino acid levels
11:31
relatively high and you're continually
11:33
providing the building blocks for them
11:34
for that exercise muscle to incorporate
11:36
and use to grow. We as a business sell
11:39
both plant and and whey proteins. Can
11:43
you touch a bit on the differences
11:45
between plant and whey proteins in their
11:47
ability to to support muscle and um what
11:51
it is that we should look for uh from a
11:53
plant protein to make sure that it it
11:56
also can support muscle regrowth as well
11:58
as as well as whey.
11:59
Yeah. Know great question. Um
12:03
generally when we when we look at
12:04
supplement um powder forms of of plant
12:07
and animal based proteins um for the
12:09
most part plant proteins contain a a
12:12
lower abundance of essential amino acids
12:14
compared to the animal the whey protein.
12:16
Um and we know those essential amino
12:18
acids are really important because we we
12:19
we we can't generate them indogenously.
12:21
Our bodies can't make them theelves. So
12:23
we can only get them from the food that
12:24
we consume. um and the essential amino
12:27
acids are thought to be key for
12:28
supporting that muscle anabolic response
12:30
that that that is growth and remodeling.
12:33
So in theory um you would think that a
12:35
uh an animal-based protein with a higher
12:37
abundance of essential amino acids would
12:39
be superior in its capacity to support
12:41
muscle remodeling. The second factor we
12:43
we have to consider is that generally
12:45
speaking the digestibility of animal
12:47
proteins is thought to be a little bit
12:49
quicker than plant-based proteins as
12:51
well. So we've got two factors here.
12:53
Potentially a protein source that has
12:54
more essential amino acids, more of
12:56
which gets into our bloodstream. So it's
12:58
it's presented to the muscle for for use
13:00
in in in growth and remodeling
13:01
responses. Um what we've come to
13:04
understand is that there are a number of
13:05
ways around that for that that can
13:07
effectively make plant protein
13:09
supplements as effective as as animal
13:11
based uh proteins like whey. Um the
13:14
first option is to potentially consume a
13:16
little bit more of the plant-based
13:17
protein. So if you increase the the dose
13:19
slightly, you can potentially reap
13:21
similar benefits to um but actually
13:24
beyond that um a really smart way is to
13:26
um is to make sure the plant-based
13:28
protein has a complete essential amino
13:30
acid profile. Um the way around that is
13:32
to consume perhaps plant blends. So not
13:35
all plant proteins contain identical
13:37
essential amino acid profiles. So there
13:38
are some that are deficient in certain
13:40
essentials whereas other plant-based
13:42
proteins have lots of of of these these
13:44
missing essentials. Um so putting things
13:46
like um you know pea, soy, corn together
13:49
can provide you with all the essential
13:51
amino acids that muscle needs to support
13:53
this this remodeling response. So plant
13:55
blends are becoming increasingly
13:56
popular. But if we move away from from
13:58
supplements and think a little bit about
13:59
whole foods. Um of course if we if we
14:02
consume a plant-based diet, we typically
14:04
won't sit there at a meal and consume
14:05
one source of of plant uh of plant food
14:09
and plant protein. Typically that in a
14:10
vegetarian or vegan diet that would be a
14:13
whole host of different plant sources on
14:14
the plate. So a carefully planned
14:17
plant-based diet uh with complimentary
14:19
protein sources that create that
14:21
complete essential amino acid profile
14:23
can support muscle remodeling goals just
14:25
as effectively as as an animal-based
14:26
protein like whey.
14:27
What is the the current view on on how
14:30
much protein is is needed to to to build
14:32
muscle? At the moment, the the general
14:34
consensus is that whether you're male or
14:36
female, if you're consuming 0.3 grams
14:39
per kilogram of your body mass of
14:41
protein at each of those main meals and
14:43
snacks in a day, you're probably
14:45
consuming enough to to maximize this
14:47
this muscle building response.
14:49
Simple as weighing yourself
14:51
and saying this is how much I weigh and
14:52
you multiply that point by 03 and that
14:55
will give you per per meal.
14:57
And then I believe that the kind of the
14:59
total daily target is generally between
15:01
1.2 two and one 1.8 to 1.5.
15:04
Yeah. Yes. Again, it's a really dynamic
15:05
range. I think the so the
15:07
recommendations, dietary protein
15:09
recommendations for the general
15:10
population to avoid deficiency and not
15:13
just a loss of muscle, but all the the
15:15
harmful consequences that would come if
15:17
if if we consume um low levels of
15:19
protein. Um so it's thought that there
15:22
are there are alternative
15:23
recommendations for people engaged in in
15:25
exercise in order to support their not
15:27
just their muscle health goals but their
15:29
overall um I guess performance and
15:31
training objectives as well.
15:33
So yeah for for exercising individuals
15:35
the the needle is shifted slightly
15:36
beyond those recommendations for the
15:38
general population.
15:39
The thinking is if you're if you're
15:40
consuming 1.2 grams per kilogram of your
15:43
body mass a day. Um, so again, if you
15:45
divide that by if you if you eat four
15:46
times a day, um, you're talking about
15:48
0.3 grams per kg mass, which is that
15:51
value we already spoke about.
15:52
Um, if you're consuming that 1.2 grams
15:55
per kg of body mass of protein per day,
15:57
you're probably getting enough. Think
15:59
there's there's some evidence to suggest
16:00
that if you if you pushed up nearer to
16:02
1.6, you're you're making absolutely
16:04
sure you're consuming enough.
16:06
There are probably very few scenarios
16:07
where you would you would reap an
16:09
additional benefit from going beyond
16:10
1.6. So perhaps periods of of really
16:13
intensified training um or competition
16:17
where there's, you know, there's there's
16:19
uh a significant stress on on the body.
16:22
Um uh perhaps also when you're in um
16:24
energy deficit, um we know that when you
16:26
when you cut calories when you're on a
16:27
diet, that's also and you're consuming
16:29
low levels of energy, that can be
16:30
harmful for muscle. So you can you can
16:32
lose muscle during those periods.
16:33
There's a little bit of evidence to
16:34
suggest that you that the very high
16:36
protein intakes during energy
16:38
restriction can help to support and
16:40
maintain muscle mass. But of course,
16:42
when your appetite is is suppressed or
16:43
you're trying to consume lower levels of
16:45
food, it's difficult to get those
16:47
protein intakes very high. So there's a
16:48
there's a practical challenge there. But
16:50
yeah, generally speaking, if someone's
16:51
if someone's at 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kg
16:54
body mass a day,
16:55
um, and they have a, you know, a muscle
16:57
mass function performance objective in
17:00
mind, I would say they're probably
17:01
consuming enough. Yeah. So it's like the
17:03
the most important thing again if we
17:05
think about building building muscle
17:06
masses. It's the resistance training
17:08
first and foremost, right? So I always
17:09
use the the ice cream sundae analogy,
17:11
right? That's the that's the sundae and
17:12
the whipped cream.
17:13
Yeah.
17:14
The the added benefit you get with the
17:15
protein on top is the sort of sprinkles
17:17
and the cherries. It's the nice additive
17:18
bonus that gives you a
17:20
gives you a small um a small extra push.
17:22
Yeah.
17:22
But again over um depending on on
17:25
what person's objectives and goals that
17:28
that small added push can be really
17:29
important. So that's why that's where
17:31
protein comes in, I Could you say or
17:32
what do you think is the most um
17:34
exciting discovery or idea that that's
17:38
come around in in recent years and is
17:40
there anything that's happening within
17:42
the science world that that has got got
17:45
you excited or has got the the sector
17:47
interested like what is the most
17:49
exciting discovery?
17:50
Yeah. uh in I guess in the world of
17:51
muscle physiology I think um yeah a
17:54
couple of really interesting examples
17:56
would be guess the the increasing amount
17:58
of work around um skeletal muscle as a
18:01
as an endocrine organ. So I mentioned
18:02
before that the
18:04
um the small vesicles that can be
18:06
released from muscle in response to in
18:08
response to exercise
18:10
um and potentially take their valuable
18:12
cargo to other tissues and organs in the
18:14
body and and drop that cargo off where
18:16
it where it may exert exert health
18:18
benefits certainly from a metabolic
18:21
standpoint. I think that that work is
18:22
really exciting. It's probably I mean I
18:24
guess it's it's moving towards a decade
18:26
now but but there are very few people
18:27
out there that can do a really good job
18:29
of of of of measuring those factors. So
18:32
everyone kind of jumped on um jumped on
18:34
that and and has been trying to do work
18:35
in that area, but the quality control
18:38
of of the work that's coming out is is
18:39
is I think is is really compromised. So
18:41
there are still only a very small number
18:43
of people that can do that work really
18:44
really well. Um and I guess the
18:46
understanding that actually it's not
18:47
just in response to exercise, the cargo
18:50
that is released from muscle and
18:51
transported elsewhere that's valuable,
18:52
but also when health is compromising
18:54
disease, muscle also spits out these
18:57
factors and they can cause harmful
18:59
effects in other tissues and organs as
19:00
well. So it's the it's it's yeah muscle
19:02
is an endocrine organ right across the
19:04
the health spectrum which is really
19:05
intriguing.
19:06
Um and I think you know beyond that the
19:08
last few years has seen an increasing um
19:10
increasing number of studies really
19:12
focused on the um the gut muscle brain
19:15
axis as well. Um, so the idea that our
19:17
our gut microbiota, the the the
19:20
thousands of bacterial species that we
19:22
have there can in some way, shape or
19:24
form influence our muscle metabolism
19:26
potentially through through our
19:28
inflammatory and immune immune health
19:29
status as well. Um, so again we we we we
19:32
might modify our diet um and the effects
19:36
that diet has or beneficial effects that
19:38
the diet change has on our muscle might
19:39
be mediated by changes at the level of
19:41
the gut the gut microbiota. Um similarly
19:45
again when we think about disease uh if
19:46
we if we focus on muscle loss in aging
19:48
and inflammatory diseases there's an
19:50
idea that if if you can potentially slow
19:53
or pre prevent that if you target the
19:55
gut microbiota as well. So it's really
19:57
it's ripe for opportunity. It's
19:58
incredibly complex to study because um
20:01
in the context of thousands of bacterial
20:03
species it's difficult to interpret when
20:05
some go up and some go down
20:08
and how these things change with a
20:09
relatively short-term diet. So there um
20:11
every paper that's produced in that area
20:13
probably leads to to you know 10 new
20:14
questions. But um
20:16
I think it's ripe for opportunity even
20:17
some of the the technological advances
20:19
in how we study that.
20:20
Mhm. And when you're when you're talking
20:22
about those instances you're you're not
20:26
necessarily looking at it from how do we
20:27
make muscular people be more muscular.
20:30
You're looking at it from a perspective
20:32
of of general health aging aging health.
20:35
Yeah. That's absolutely right. Yeah.
20:36
Yeah. So we're um Yeah. Um my my work
20:38
has shifted primarily now um over to
20:41
supporting muscle health or or
20:43
mitigating muscle loss with with aging.
20:46
It's a kind of natural process called
20:47
sarcopenia. None of us can none of us
20:49
can truly avoid it but there's probably
20:51
there are um
20:52
aspects of sarcopenia that are
20:54
chronological just inherent um
20:57
unavoidable but there are aspects um
20:59
that are also biological and influenced
21:01
by lifestyle lifestyle factors and and
21:03
external stresses as well. So, um, if we
21:06
can avoid some of those those harmful
21:08
effects, we can probably advance into
21:09
into older age with quite healthy levels
21:11
of muscle mass and strength that mean
21:12
that we're able to function
21:13
independently.
21:15
Um, that the the amount spent annually
21:16
on our on our healthcare provision is
21:18
quite low as well and we don't put a
21:19
strain on our already burdened healthare
21:22
system.
21:23
Whenever I've thought about it and
21:24
looked at it, it it seems that we're
21:26
getting much better at making people
21:28
live longer, but we're not necessarily
21:30
at the same speed with making people
21:32
live better quality lives as as as they
21:35
age. Um, and from our perspective, I I
21:38
can see a lot from longevity. Longevity
21:41
seems to be a bit of a buzzword these
21:44
days.
21:44
I've even heard someone refer refer to
21:46
them as um the the silver tsunami,
21:50
okay,
21:50
of of people. and and it it seems to be
21:53
that um a lot of people are now taking
21:55
taking the time to to to think about
21:58
their nutrition.
21:59
Um there's lots of for the most part
22:01
people are looking at it from from doing
22:03
more exercise, making sure that they're
22:05
eating adequate amounts of protein, but
22:07
we're also seeing it from a from a
22:09
neutrautical perspective as as well
22:11
where people are looking for different
22:13
vitamins and different solutions to to
22:15
almost optimize optimize it. Um, so
22:18
yeah, that's it's interesting that that
22:20
that when whenever you're looking at it,
22:23
you're thinking about it from a kind of
22:24
how do you make people be less dependent
22:27
on on the NHS or or the medical systems?
22:30
How do you make people age so that they
22:33
are less fragile and less likely to to
22:35
fall over and and and break bones and
22:38
whatnot.
22:38
Yeah. Know, we we're always trying to
22:40
compress the gap between lifespan and
22:42
healthy life expectancy. So depending on
22:44
where you are in the where you are,
22:45
let's use the UK because we're there
22:47
today. Um if you you know not too far
22:50
away from where we are here, there are
22:52
certain parts of Greater Manchester
22:53
where you could go and um the gap
22:55
between lifespan and healthy life
22:57
expectancy is you know might might be
22:59
somewhere between 10 15 years for some
23:01
people. So that means 10 or 15 years at
23:03
the end of life before before death
23:05
where these people are in in compromised
23:07
health and and things are pretty
23:08
miserable. Um, it's not just that it's
23:10
it's it's expensive to take care of
23:11
these people. It's also from an on a
23:13
personal level. It's a pretty miserable
23:15
way to to to live your existence to be
23:17
to be unable to function independently.
23:19
So, but if you go to more affluent areas
23:20
of the UK, that gap is really
23:22
compressed. It's quite narrow. Most
23:23
people spend their lives in in
23:25
relatively good health. Maybe they get
23:27
sick to towards the end, but but but um
23:29
you know, perhaps that's a year or two
23:31
years and and uh before before death.
23:33
So, yeah, our idea is is is using
23:35
exercise and nutrition to create longer
23:37
healthier lives. Yeah. to try and
23:39
compress that gap.
23:40
On a slightly weird tangent now, but I
23:42
remember um listening or reading about
23:44
the idea that potentially our our
23:46
ancestors almost inherently knew to
23:48
combine different like plant sources and
23:51
grain sources. Um and it I remember
23:54
reading the article uh that it basically
23:56
was trying to suggest that at some point
23:59
in time it almost seems like we
24:00
intrinsically knew that you needed to
24:02
eat a variety of of food sources to
24:04
complete that amino acid profile. I
24:07
don't know if that's from an
24:08
evolutionary perspective that that that
24:10
makes sense. But yeah, I'm I'm I'm no
24:12
paleontologist, so I probably wouldn't
24:14
wouldn't want to uh
24:16
uh yeah. Yeah. Go go go down that route.
24:17
Well, I mean, I'm I'm I think, you know,
24:19
part of the reason my my opinions on on
24:22
diet and protein don't kind of make it
24:23
into popular social media is because my
24:26
message is one around balancing that. I
24:28
think that I think the most effective
24:29
way to to um to support
24:32
um healthy life expectancy and longevity
24:34
from a diet perspective, not setting
24:36
exercise and and
24:38
other vitamins aside is um is that you
24:40
know, we we we need things in
24:42
plant-based foods, but I think it's also
24:44
really efficient. uh there are a number
24:45
of things we can get really efficiently
24:46
from animal based foods as well. So
24:48
depending on where you look, you can
24:49
always you can find a research study to
24:51
support your narrative on on diet and
24:53
healthy life expectancy, right? So you
24:54
can find
24:55
a whole bunch of um news articles or or
24:59
studies that that will tell you that
25:00
plant protein supports muscle aging or
25:03
or or slows the process of sarcopenia
25:05
more effectively than animal protein.
25:07
But actually if you flip that, you can
25:08
find a whole bunch of studies that say
25:10
the same for animal proteins as well.
25:12
Um, and so from my perspective, maybe
25:13
being someone that that um is a little
25:15
lazy with that, I think, um, yeah, a
25:18
complement of animal and plant-based
25:20
food sources gives me every everything I
25:22
need. So, yeah, I think that's the most
25:23
efficient way.
25:24
I've done this a few times now, and it
25:27
um, it seems to be the variety is is the
25:29
the consistent theme when it when it
25:31
comes to almost anything when it comes
25:34
to health and nutrition related. It
25:36
seems to be that why why limit yourself
25:38
to one food group or one type of of of
25:41
choice when you may as well have
25:43
have them all and and reall the benefits
25:45
becoming a little there's a potential
25:47
issue with um with older adults
25:49
consuming a vegetarian or vegan diet. So
25:51
we we know that that older muscles
25:53
become a little less responsive to to to
25:55
the amino acids that that we consume
25:57
from our dietary protein. So in terms of
25:59
that muscle anabolic remodeling
26:01
response, it seems to seems to slow down
26:02
a bit bit in aging. Um and yes, so
26:07
there's an idea that that potentially
26:08
the quality of protein um or the the the
26:11
proportion of animal protein in the diet
26:12
might be a bit more important in older
26:14
age. We we've not necessarily found that
26:16
in our lab, but um the way we've studied
26:18
it is we provided plantbased diets that
26:22
contain a really rich variety of of
26:24
plant food sources. And we know that due
26:27
to alterations in in in appetite and
26:29
other sensory properties, a lot of older
26:31
adults who follow a vegetarian or vegan
26:33
diet don't necessarily consume that same
26:35
variety. So food choices might become a
26:38
little bit more monotonous. And so
26:40
there's a scenario there where um older
26:42
adults consuming a vegetarian or vegan
26:44
diet might not be getting this this rich
26:46
diversity of essential amino acids that
26:47
the muscle needs. So it's really
26:48
important to uh you know I think
26:50
carefully planned and prepared
26:52
vegetarian vegan diet at all stages of
26:53
the life course especially as somebody
26:55
moves into middle and older age. I think
26:56
it's really prudent to ensure you're
26:58
consuming a a nice healthy balance of
26:59
each variety. Never the same, you know,
27:01
try and avoid the same the same
27:03
breakfast and lunches every single day
27:04
of the week. I think it's really key.
27:06
It's good advice.
27:07
So I guess I just want to say thank you
27:09
uh to to Lee for his time and and his um
27:12
his patience with with the questions. We
27:14
we we we covered a whole range of of
27:16
topics talking about the importance of
27:18
exercise across the across the aging
27:21
life cycle. We talked about nutrition.
27:23
We talked about the importance of a
27:24
varied diet. And uh ultimately I feel
27:27
like I've we've got a really clear
27:29
picture on on on the foundations of of
27:31
what it is to to eat and and live a
27:34
healthy lifestyle. Uh so thanks very
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