Willem Dafoe talks 'Late Fame' and how he approached his viral photo shoot

I didn't know about the Dune Popcorn Bucket

For those who, yeah, before we got on camera, we got to introduce Will to the Dune Popcorn Bucket

Wow, is that a special experience. You're Ed Saksberger. The Ed Saksberger, right? The poet

That was a long time ago. You're brilliant. I really related to, I feel like the way the film becomes about identity in art

and kind of like, what does it mean to be an artist in New York? And I think there's a lot of definitions to that

I'm curious for you, how does the film speak to either your understanding of artistry or does it differ from that

Everybody's different. The one thing about late fame is you've got to remember that the guy came to the city when he was young

And that's something I identified with because I did the same thing. And curiously enough, at the same period

So I really identified with it. but maybe this is my projection on him

But like me, when I came to City, I did not see it as a career opportunity

Fame had nothing to do with it. That's why I kind of bristle at the idea of late fame, you know

But he was really there because there was a scene happening and he was drawn to it and he connected with the desire to make something

so he was going to readings he was writing poetry he was having a life but it wasn't necessarily to

get famous and at a certain point the scene kind of went away and poetry is a tough thing to make

a living out of as it is so he made the choice that he would stop writing and he started to work

at the post office and that became his life and he built a different life. We can't be too sad

about that because that's his choice and there's different stations in life. There are, of course

our people that have been able to do both, do a job to earn their living and still be very engaged

very famous ones. I mean, T.S. Eliot worked at a bank. There's many examples of that

So that is possible. But clearly, there was a shift. So what's interesting for me about this

story is then later in life, where there's a tendency sometimes for people to look back at

their lives, he gets seduced and flattered by these people that say, oh, you were great. What

happened. You know, you're genius. You come, come hang out with us. And slowly, slowly, he starts

to flirt with a self that isn't anymore and is tied to that period. But of course, it's not meant

to be because everything's changed. And these kids that admire him are the enthusiasm society

they're they come from a different place so it's not really meant to be and then we see what

happens it's also it's also a kind of cautionary tale I think about don't you know don't become the

people the person that people project you to be yeah so that that all has to do with art and

and pleasure and making things next to having, making your living out of that I admire people that can you know do things with great love but also can at the same time find a way to make a living

and they enjoy both. Yeah. I think it's part of why I enjoy so much about the film

is that, like, it recognizes, I think the idea people have of artists in New York

is tied to that era when you moved here, where the idea that you could be a struggling artist

and, you know, make a living, But also like rents then were comically low

But also this was a temporary thing. You know, my experience and, you know, it's my experience was it was a special time and the city was on its back, you know

And you're right. The rents, it was a dangerous place. It was a violent place

It was a bankrupt place. And all these kids like me, you know, middle class kids from the Midwest and other places came to Mecca to play with this thing of being an artist

And I came here because I was turned on. I was turned on by things I was reading about people, you know, loft performances and dance and things that were happening here

Punk music was just starting. So that became like a magnet. And then you got here and there was a community

It had its own kind of hierarchies and its own. But you never, there was no way to think that this was going to last forever or that it was a career path

And the other cool thing was people were not, people were doing things that they weren't trained for

Where now, and this is where the enthusiasm society in the film is very different

And they, they're studying these people. They've gone to university. You know, there is not necessarily a career path, but there's, they're studying in it

It's their identity. Where I felt like when in the early days, and I was ambitious, don't get me wrong

I was good Midwestern boy that wanted to make good. But I started out not thinking, not knowing, not even concerned about whether I could make a living

Sure. or you're kind of chasing the passion and, like, what comes later. Yeah

That's not the concern at that point. You're 22 years old, you know. You love hanging out with people that are crazy and brave

and, you know, you kind of brag about your misery, and it's romantic

Do you remember a moment where you were like, oh, my God, I'm in New York, I'm doing the thing

I was doing the thing, but I didn't know what it meant. I'm still doing the thing, and I don't know what it means

I mean, that's very valid. I mean, it's clear that I've been able to make my living, and I've been fortunate to get supported in what I do

But it really comes down to doing things that you love to do

Was there a point where... And not thinking about the result too much. Yeah, that's something, because you and I have talked a few times, and I always find it so fascinating

because you have such a storied career, and you've done so many things. And it doesn't sound like you're sitting down and going, the roadmap is this

Not at all. So I'm curious, looking back with late fame, when you look back, is there a moment where you're like, oh, this is, I think, when I knew I was going to be an actor professionally

No. That's so wild. No. No. But because it's a little bit like the example, you know, the bulk of my experience and coming of age as an actor, the bulk of it, not all entirely, was with the Worcester Group

and that was an avant company that was downtown I never really took a salary I was figure modeling and things like that to make a living and living quite cheaply

So I wasn't worried about those things. But getting back to your question about, feel like you had arrived or something, there was

no arriving because there was no track. There was no record, there was no career for a performer in a small avant-garde theater

And I guess what I wanted to bring up is at the Wooster Group

it was so precarious and so difficult that we approached every show that we did

as if it was going to be the last. Now, after a while, because I was there for 27 years

after a while I said, this is getting a little ridiculous. I think we're going on

But the spirit of still, you know, doing what you're doing was there

And, of course, you know, after a while you start to plan

and you do start to project on the future. but the spirit of what you're doing is to really concentrate on what you're doing and not think

about the result. And, and there's a real practical parallel in acting, for example

when you're performing, it's like being an athlete. The second that you think, Hey

I'm doing really good. Oh, they're really liking the play or, Oh, this is cool. You're out of it

You're, you fall out. So it's just a lesson about, you know, stay on it, stay in it

And what will be, what will be. And the pleasure is not the rewards that you're going to get, whether they be monetary or stroke or whatever it is

It's the pleasure of being in it and pleasure of having, you know, this special place that connects you with, you know, things that are temporal and eternal

Sure. In the best way. Yeah. Well, it sounds like mindfulness, right

Like being in the moment and being receptive to that. I mean, that's ideal. It's hard to practice, but you can have the ideal and go towards it

Well, it's so incredible looking back at, like, I'm obviously more familiar with your film work

I'm aware of the Wooster Group, but theater being. It's okay. I didn't know about the Dune

Popcorn bucket. Popcorn bucket. For those who, yeah, before we got on camera, we got to introduce Will to the Dune popcorn bucket

Wow is that a special experience I do feel like we're going to need to get a b-roll

Of you putting your hand in it again now He's like absolutely not

I know what the internet does Exactly But Like looking over your filmography

It's so incredible because We've talked about this before Whenever I get to tell people like

I'm talking to Willem Dafoe Everybody has a different like point Of like where they became

Like oh Willem Dafoe from which I'd be a liar if I didn't think it was cool I appreciate it no because makes you feel like

um it makes you feel flexible yeah you know like you can be seen different ways that

that you know whatever way I am whatever I'm working with can be uh you know it is um flexible

it is mutable it is you know you aren stuck Yeah well I have one more question about so I think you such an interesting physical actor because you seem very like not aware of your body but you seem very comfortable in your body

And I think that's part of why it's translated. I don't know if you're aware, but online people are fascinated by the way you pose for photo shoots

In particular, it's one where you're like, you've kind of made a triangle of your body. Yeah, and then people try to imitate it and they're like, why don't I look as cool as Willem Dafoe

I am curious how you approach a photo shoot. Ah, I got to admit, I like photo shoots

And I've talked about it and what you're talking about, I'm aware enough that I hope it doesn't make me gun shy or make me self-conscious about it because I'm aware of it

Because if I'm supposed to come up with great poses, I mean, it's like forget it

I'll go the other way. There's something instant about it. It is a collaboration

You enter a room, you get these clothes that you would probably never wear in life

Not always, sometimes beautiful clothes, but sometimes they're horrible. They come in, everybody's very nice

You've got a day. The photographer comes in, he may have some ideas, he, she may have some ideas

We shoot away, and it's all about finding something. And everybody wants the same thing

Everybody's kind of loose because they don't know you. They don't know whether you're going to be a prima donna or you're not going to pop or whatever

But when it works, it's really fun and it's really instant. It's about making shapes

It's about you're free because you're not representing anything. You're just doing

And that's back to what you said physically. I'm trained as an actor, as a doer, not in psychology, not in interpretation, not in lots of things

But I know that everything is based on doing. And the quality of how you do it is the performance

And you put yourself into these structures, and then the structures kind of tell you what to do and work on you

and then something happens and that becomes the heart of the performance. Of course, you have other considerations like text, other performers

There's all these elements. But in a photo shoot, it's stripped down

It's watch me do this, watch me do this. Oh, why can't we do that with the table

Why don't we do this? Why don't we do that? It's instantaneous

And if you're in the groove with a photographer, it can be great fun

I love that. It sounds like it maybe also comes back to your finger drawing past. Maybe

Maybe? That's interesting. But, you know, when you change what's normal and you have a license to do that

and it's got no pressure on meaning something, it can be very freeing and very playful

and you can discover things. and that point of surprising yourself or finding contact with the other people you're working with

is what makes anything come alive. That makes sense. That makes sense for me, your filmography

I think that's our time. Oh, boy. I'm a little chatterbox. No, you were splendid

Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure. Your tattoo has hypnotized me. Anytime, Willem

Anytime you want to be head to Asa Tattoo, the couch is here