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LBC callers on the conspiracy theories that risked their relationships
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Jul 16, 2025
Aristocrat Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon have been found guilty at the Old Bailey of the manslaughter of their newborn baby. James O’Brien says the couple are 'two deeply paranoid people magnifying each other’s delusions', and it leads him to wonder: 'do you know when your loved one has been lost down the rabbit hole of conspiracy culture forever?' 0:00 - Caller Ben recounts the 'dreadful irony' of losing a loved one to Covid after his friend endorsed 'unforgivable' conspiracy theories 04:58 - Caller Kaylee was 'extremely disappointed' by family members refusing to be vaccinated against Covid. 10:29 - Caller Emma's mum found a machine online which she claimed could cure all diseases. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #jamesobrien #uknews #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
I had a very, very good friend, and we, largely, he was the kind of guy that was listening to your show in 2014, 2015
0:09
You're not going to blame me. You're not going to blame me for this. Go on
0:13
I really am not going to blame you. It was in 2016 when I started disagreeing with him, but it was disagreements that I'd had with other people
0:20
so I didn't regard them as being hugely significant, largely to do with Brexit
0:25
Okay. Then he started supporting Trump, which I thought was really odd, because again, it was kind of a liberal left thing. But again, I could kind of excuse that, because I noticed a lot of people on the left in America had gone from Obama to Trump. So I've made a lot of excuses for him
0:42
but it was when COVID hit and when the vaccination program came in
0:47
and he started posting on Facebook these absolutely appalling memes which essentially used the Arbrecht Max Frey
0:56
the work makes you free sign above Auschwitz. The motto above the gate at Auschwitz
1:01
The motto above the gate, yeah. And he turned it into vaccines make you free
1:05
In other words, comparing vaccination to the Holocaust. And I felt that was unforgivable and was so disgusting
1:12
And by a horrible, horrible, dreadful irony, COVID actually killed him. And I went to his funeral because I felt duty-bound
1:19
but I remember feeling very, very uneasy because all of his family were aware of how badly he and I had fallen out
1:28
How had they processed it? Because, I mean, we all have the ability
1:34
to compartmentalise and cauterise company, don't we? the closer you are to somebody, the harder it is to make that final breach
1:45
You, as a close friend, would find it easier to walk away than, for example, a mum or a partner
1:51
So do we know what they did? Yes, we do, because I'm still friends with his brother
1:56
His brother won't talk about it at all. His mother and father keep claiming that there were special cures
2:05
that the government, that he'd said, he'd told them, apparently, there were special cures that the government was keeping hidden
2:10
and instead they were vaccinating people. And they've actually bought into this stuff
2:15
His brother did not buy into any of this stuff, by the way, but his brother will not talk about it
2:19
He just says he won't talk about it. I think I'd be like that. I don't know
2:23
I mean, not at work, obviously, talk about everything and anything at work, but I think if it had happened in my private life
2:29
depending on who it was, you know, if you loved someone, like, sort of organically
2:36
if it was that kind of love, biological, well, not biological, I'm adopted
2:39
but family, family, family love, and you were never going to win the argument
2:45
then the only alternative would be to either cut off, amputate the relationship or never, ever, ever talk about it again
2:55
Yeah, and that's what his brother chose to do. And I think he's done that
3:01
I mean, that's particularly acute, actually, since he passed away because obviously that's just
3:08
that is horrendous kind of salt in the wounds, if you like, that his brother did get vaccinated
3:14
which infuriated him. Really? And now he's dead? Yeah, he was livid
3:18
And now, of course, he's passed away and his brother's fine. Was there a single moment
3:22
Was it the Auschwitz meme that you just felt constituted a point of no return
3:28
for the relationship, not necessarily for his relationship with the conspiracy, but for your relationship with him
3:34
My relationship with him began to break down properly when I saw that he was also expressing support
3:42
for people like Marine Le Pen. That's not a conspiracy theory. I mean, far right
3:47
People have been drawn to racism throughout the ages. But that was more your sensibilities being offended
3:53
rather than his relationship with reality being corrupted. Yes, but I felt..
3:57
He was becoming susceptible to ideas that all of democracy was sort of being manipulated by strange cabals and that the only solution were people like Trump or indeed Brexit was a solution to the cabals
4:15
And Marine Le Pen was a way of undermining the cabals of Brussels, etc
4:21
So it wasn't actually, I mean put it this way, I wasn't surprised when he turned out to be anti-vax
4:26
And I could even have forgiven that, to be honest with you. Sure. I probably could, but I couldn't forgive the meme
4:31
No, no, no, the co-opting of the Holocaust to support provably and demonstrably false beliefs is
4:40
yeah, I think that would be a tricky point for me to overlook or forgive or indeed move on from
4:46
I think, and I know that I'm still not perfect at this
4:50
but I keep trying to reflect that we are only one part
4:53
of the United Kingdom here in England. Thank you, Ben, he's not even in the United Kingdom, he's calling from Benidorm
4:58
During COVID, my mum was diagnosed with cancer. And so she was obviously vulnerable, very close to my nan and granddad, who were very elderly
5:10
So we had quite a few vulnerable people that we had to be careful around
5:17
Yes. It was when I think the first vaccine was due to come out
5:23
And my brother, he didn't really talk about it, to be honest
5:28
but it wasn't until I thought of he was seeing my mum and my nan
5:32
and I'd say have you had the vaccine and he said no
5:37
he hadn't because they didn't think they meaning him and his partner
5:43
didn't trust in it which was really a shock to me because when I asked why
5:51
what was his reasons around not having it he couldn't really answer
5:56
it was more like we don't think it's good we don't think it's good for you
6:03
plenty of times I sat down and said to him what do you think
6:08
they're poisoning us what do you think I couldn't get my head around why
6:15
you're like me you're thinking what are your qualifications where are you getting this stuff from
6:22
and also listen governments have made mistakes in the past and they've
6:28
covered things up in the past but you'd need to come up with a very compelling
6:31
account of why they would be doing this terrible thing to us in order
6:36
to make me think even for a nanosecond that they might be doing a terrible thing to us
6:40
under false pretenses What do you get rid of us all? I mean
6:43
all of us. I mean what would be the plan? Who do I get to boss about
6:47
if I've got rid of the entire party? What's the point of being Prime Minister of nothing
6:52
Yeah, exactly It's crazy But I remember feeling extremely disappointed with more
6:58
because you can't cut, or you, I mean, I certainly don't cut my brother off
7:02
but my mum sadly passed away, you know, during the end of COVID sort of thing
7:08
So, and we're not very, you know, we don't have anything to do with our dad
7:12
So we only had each other. So it's not as if, you know, I could just cut
7:16
you know, I couldn't cut him off, but I wouldn't want to, but it's extremely disappointing
7:22
That's the only thing I can say, really, is that someone's so close to you when the evidence is there
7:28
But then, I mean, I've had friends as well. You know, friends have made comments about... They did have the COVID vaccination
7:34
but they have said or mentioned or there's been talk about it. And then you start to think, well, is it me
7:40
You know, is it me that's wrong? Yeah, I suppose you do because you have respect for him
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and indeed for his intelligence. So you think if he's ended up in this crazy... Maybe I'm the one that's a little bit unhinged
7:53
but you know that you're not. So what do you do now? Do you just not go there
7:56
Do you just keep those doors closed? No, I do. We still have a good relationship
8:02
We do have a good relationship. No, that's what I meant. You just don't talk about certain issues
8:06
No we don I mean no that not true Because what I mean I am a great believer in educating you know and explaining And you know for people to understand and potentially accept what you believe or what you believe is right you know you have to talk to them
8:21
And I will always talk to him about stuff, you know, calmly and try and find reasoning
8:26
And I give him the tools to go and look at stuff. But if somebody doesn't, I mean, it's life, isn't it
8:33
If somebody doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean that I don't love them or I'll cut them off
8:39
Just certain elements that we just don't agree with. And that's the difference between relationships that you can't live without
8:45
and relationships that you can, I suppose. And there'll be people listening to you who don't actually know which one they're in at the moment
8:52
with regard to their conspiracy theorist subscribing loved ones. What does he get out of it, do you think
8:59
I mean, the point I tried to express in the introduction, I don't know if you heard it
9:02
was that they truly, truly believe it. It's easy to chalk it up, because I got my head turned a little bit
9:08
by people in my line of work who couldn't get arrested, but suddenly found a new lease of life
9:13
punting these theories online and even, God forbid, on some television stations
9:18
And you sort of think, well, yeah, you're doing it for money. It's obvious. But actually, people genuinely believe it
9:23
It's not just snake oil salesmen. Your brother gets nothing out of it
9:29
except what? Well, exactly. which was my question as to what, you know
9:35
why do you feel like that? What have you been looking at
9:39
Where have you got this information from? And he couldn't answer any of that. It's strange, isn't it
9:44
And I just, well, it's just, I mean, how do you try and teach someone that's not willing to learn
9:51
or even look at something? And yet he thinks he's learnt it all. He thinks he's got all the answers
9:56
I mean, that's why I find this whole area of human behaviour
10:00
so fascinating. and while it's not new, we seem to be very much at a peak at the moment of this kind of thing
10:07
and that's why the story of Constance Martin and Mark Gordon brought it into such sharp relief
10:13
That, as I say, is what happens if you end up at the very bottom of these rabbit holes
10:17
but so many people are in the entry stages of these rabbit holes or teetering on the edge
10:23
and it's when you watch it happening to someone that you love that you feel the things that Kayleigh has expressed so perfectly
10:29
It was my mum, really. So, during COVID, my 20-year-old son needed a second liver transplant because his first one had failed
10:40
And you could understand that as he'd had a previous liver transplant, he was immunosuppressed
10:46
Yes. So, the first problem was she didn't believe that COVID was a thing. And we really did
10:54
From the start? I mean, where did she get that from? Did you dig into it
10:58
or were you too busy worrying about your boy? Well, pretty much. We pretty much tried to draw the drawbridge
11:05
and put a protective ring around him because also at that time
11:09
they'd put him on the waiting list for a new organ. And obviously they said
11:15
if you get COVID, you're struck off the list straight away. You're not suitable for it
11:21
So it was just panic, panic, panic. But she would just walk in
11:25
she would go round through the back door, no it's fine, I'm fine, there's nothing wrong
11:30
it's all a big ooh-ah but the day that broke me really
11:36
was she came round, she'd been online she said she'd found this machine online
11:41
that can cure all diseases and she was insisting that she bought him this machine
11:46
to put in his room and it would cure him and he wouldn't need a transplant
11:51
and he would be miraculously better and just like my son was like looking at me
11:58
and I just said, Mum, this can't be right. This isn't real
12:03
Because if this was real, there would be no AHS. Nobody would need to go to hospital
12:09
But that's why. It all big pharma and the government you know they want to keep us in our place um you know but you can find it on the internet that I mean it not the most successful cover up in the
12:23
history of cover ups is it if your mum can find it on the internet what threads do you tug I mean if
12:29
indeed you can because it's a mixture of sort of horror and despair and love and it's the
12:35
love that is the leavening factor here what threads can you tug in those sort of conversations um
12:41
I can't anymore. I sort of, it just, from then on, everything else just, it just got worse
12:49
I just had to make the decision, I can't have that and deal with what I was dealing with at the time
12:57
So she's sort of at an arm's length and she sort of, she knows now she can't ring me up with these things
13:05
and tell me these things that, she can't convince me. So to her, you know, I'm a lost cause rather than I think she's a lost cause, if you know what I mean
13:16
Of course I know exactly what you mean. What do you think? I mean, you can't really talk about the single biggest factor in this, can you
13:25
Because it's incremental. It's several pieces of a pretty hideous jigsaw. But when you look back over your life, is there anything you sort of think that would have been an indicator that she might have gone down this route
13:37
that she might have been susceptible to this kind of nonsense? I just think her having access to social media and a phone
13:46
because she'd finish work, she'd be on her phone and she'd be straight down there and she'd come and say
13:54
oh, I quite like Donald Trump, you know, he's dealing with the paedophiles
13:58
And I'd be like, mum. It's just like, it was all those little drips and I'm thinking
14:04
she's going down there, but it was when it involved, and they had quite a close relationship
14:10
And for her to not see how ridiculous it was. Well, it's beyond ridiculous, isn't it
14:17
It's as if, I mean, she didn't mean any harm. I know that sounds a little bit pat and it sounds hideously inadequate
14:25
but she obviously didn't mean any harm because she thought she was helping you. But to be so cloth-eared and blind to the impact it would have
14:33
on someone going through the trauma of a transplant a second trip i mean dealing with
14:38
the trauma of the first one failing and preparing and investing so much energy and hope in the in
14:43
the second one and to have someone come along and say oh i found a machine on the internet you don't
14:48
need to worry anymore it's an extraordinary act of of entirely unintended callousness
14:54
yeah i'm so sorry i'm so sorry that you've had to go through that can i ask how your son is
15:01
well that he got the second one in january 2021 but that failed within six months um he got um
15:10
he got the third one in july 23 um and touch wood yeah he's doing well he just started uni
15:20
he's doing a biomedical degree i bet he is yeah he doesn't mess around with black boxes on the
15:27
internet that can cure all else. Oh, bless him. Well, I don't know. I hesitated to ask
15:32
that question because I couldn't really tell from your tone, really, how things were going
15:37
but they're going as well as we could hope, albeit that the second one failed. Can I ask
15:42
you a really silly question? Can I ask you a really silly question? Yeah, of course. Are you sure? It wouldn't be insensitive of me. Well, you don't know what the question
15:51
is do you how much was the machine 600 pounds oh my days i'm glad i asked him there it is the
16:01
solution to every medical problem under the sun just send 600 pounds to this anonymous po box and
16:07
uh all will be well oh i loved your son emma i don't say that very often but you've touched me
16:12
in the course of that conversation and i hope things i hope things go well for him and of course
16:16
for you and ideally for your mum as well, although it's hard to see the way back from
16:21
that, isn't it
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