live_tv
Livestream Starting Soon
00
Hours
:
00
Minutes
:
00
Seconds
Up next in 10
Keir Starmer has announced a major climbdown over proposed welfare reforms as the government attempts to prevent a rebellion.
A Downing Street spokesperson told LBC: “We have listened to MPs who support the principle of reform but are worried about the pace of change for those already supported by the system."
James O'Brien takes a look at how the government spends tax money, questioning why Keir Starmer had chosen to cut disability benefits and universal credit and whether there have been 'too many' U-turns.
He also poses the question: 'What would happen to a politician who calls for the old-age pension to be means tested?'
Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp
#jamesobrien #ukpolitics #uknews #uk #starmer #benefits #LBC
LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK.
Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/
Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
Show More Show Less View Video Transcript
0:00
I'm obsessed with this pie chart
0:02
It comes around in cycles. Sometimes I go for weeks without starting a show
0:08
not having looked at it, and then I forget about it for weeks
0:12
and almost marvel, goggle-eyed at it when I stumble across it again. I'm referring to the pie chart that shows
0:18
the components of UK government spending. You remember pie charts, don't you, from school
0:23
The ones with the slices, the ones where you can sort of see in glorious Technicolor
0:28
how something breaks down in percentage terms. On this occasion, health, social security, education
0:37
the interest that we pay on debt, defence, transport, public order and safety
0:42
long-term care, housing and community amenities. One of the most interesting things about this pie chart
0:47
is you can barely see the slice that is spent on overseas aid
0:51
Isn't that bizarre, given how much rhetoric is dedicated to it? so imagine
0:57
in fact it's such a small proportion of spending in 22, 23
1:01
that it doesn't even get a figure, they've got numbers on all the others
1:05
but this one's actually too small to fit on it's less than 1.5% is all I can tell you
1:10
quite possibly less than 1% so you've got this pie chart green bit, yellow bit, blue bit, red bit
1:15
I would call that teal that bit there but I don't know whether that's
1:19
the official colour speaking of teal, if there's a song by by a popular beat combo called Wonder Horse, called Teal
1:27
which is among the most beautiful songs I think I've ever heard. I don't give you musical recommendations very often
1:33
but if that song doesn't squeeze something out of your heart, then it must be a cold, dry organ that you have lurking in the middle of your ribcage
1:44
Anyway, I digress. So there's teal, there's blue, there's pink, there's purple, there's yellow
1:49
There's a sort of salmon. Imagine that. And then there's black. There's a black slice for overseas aid
1:54
And it's by far the thinnest, and you can barely see it
1:59
How many right-wingers have you heard suggest we could solve this problem if we just stopped spending money on overseas aid
2:04
Or we could solve that problem if we just stopped spending so much money on overseas aid
2:08
Or we could solve this problem if we just stopped spending money on overseas aid. I could go on
2:12
And they often, well, they always do, sometimes seems to be almost the only arrow in their quiver
2:18
We need to stop spending this money on overseas aid, and then we'd be able to have the biggest army in the world
2:22
Then we'd be able to give pensioners £100 million each. Then we'd be able to have unicorns for school dinners
2:28
But, of course, it is, in the great scheme of things, relatively negligible
2:32
The biggest is other, which is unhelpful, 24.3% on other. But if you look at the ones that are specified
2:40
18.3% on health, as you probably expect. That works out as almost £1 in every five that is spent
2:47
and on social security for pensioners which is going to be mostly the old age pension
2:54
you're looking at 12.2% the second highest spending so you've got the health service
2:59
which is going to be disproportionately spent on older people isn't it
3:03
I mean there's nothing wrong with that you get alert as you get older you need the administrations of the National Health Service more
3:09
as you get older you can see this on the back as Veronica reminds me
3:14
of your annual tax code reminder as well Another thing that was negligible in the great scheme of things was the payments that we made to be members of the European Union, as she reminds me
3:23
But don't you worry. They're not called slices. Thank you, Mr. Numbervator
3:27
They are called sectors. I'm happy to correct that. But the sector spent on old age pensioners and the sector spent on health is together combined over 30%
3:40
Over 30%. 30%. So that's sort of over £3 in every 10 that the Treasury spends. It spends on the
3:48
health service and or the old age pension. And I am going to remind you that the old age pension
3:55
having the old age pension means you're more likely to be also in receipt of National Health
4:00
Service administrations and treatments. International aid has been cut further since this
4:06
pie chart was assembled this is 22 23 2022 2023 so now you have uh social security working age and children so this would include universal credit and disability benefits So and the it about 10 10 So your child benefit disability benefit your universal credit
4:29
your housing benefit, I presume. No, housing and community amenities gets a, gets a separate slice
4:35
Sector, sorry, Mr. Numbervator, but that's one and a half percent. So this, this sector, marginally bigger than education
4:43
We spend a little bit more on Social Security for adults of working age, i.e. not pensioners, and children
4:50
And that is the sector that Keir Starmer has gone after. That is the sector that people keep telling us we cannot afford to keep paying for
5:03
Nobody ever says it about the sector just above, do they? The 12.2, well, that's not true
5:09
the winter fuel allowance was an attempt to trim some of the money from the 12.2% of public
5:14
expenditure that goes to old age pensioners. But unless you are earning over or unless you are in
5:21
receipt of over £35,000 a year, you have now been spared that t exercise, you will be just as
5:29
well off next year as you were last year. And a significant proportion of your income will be
5:34
coming from the state will be coming from the Treasury. And I don't think there's anything wrong
5:38
with that but i'm interested in highlighting the difference in tone that surrounds this conversation
5:45
what would happen to a politician who called for example for the old age pension to be means tested
5:53
what would happen would it would it be political suicide i i talk a lot on the program about
6:00
pendular which is probably not the plural of pendulum but i've kind of decided that it is
6:05
for the purposes of our time together every morning. Pendulums swing, empires fall
6:11
The pendulum of pensioners, I think, will swing as the demographics of this country change
6:19
What I found particularly interesting about the winter fuel climb down was the way in which that 35..
6:27
It came up again yesterday, didn't it? That £35,000 threshold was so profoundly offensive to so many people
6:33
who are currently working all the time and are not earning anything like that kind of money
6:38
to be told that pensioners who are earning or receiving that kind of money were going to get even more help
6:44
really offended sensibilities, but it was politically astute. It addressed public opinion, which is partly tied up in that old misconception
6:54
that everybody in receipt of the old age pension was fighting in the Battle of Britain
6:59
That strange lady from one of the reality television shows we played a clip of
7:02
who'd been talking to Tom Sawbreak and saying it's outrageous that they're taking away this
7:07
They fought for us. And of course, the massive, massive, massive majority of them
7:10
did nothing of the sort. So we've got that weird situation in place. 12.2% of public expenditure goes on the old age pension
7:20
And 10.2% goes on social security for working age and children. And that is the sector, the slice of the pie
7:32
that Keir Starmer elected to target. And two things can be true at the same time
7:38
It may not be the biggest sector, but it may be the least sustainable
7:43
I'd have thought pensioners were probably more worrying as a demographic constituency
7:51
because they're going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And the number of people paying into the pot
7:57
the working age population, is potentially going to get smaller, especially if these continuing rhetorical flourishes regarding immigration are not nipped
8:05
in the bud. Everyone keeps promising to cut immigration, i.e. to cut the working age population
8:10
more and more and more, even as the non-working age population, the above the working age population
8:15
gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Results? I'll tell you what the result is. You're going to be
8:19
working till you're 206, unless you're lucky enough to have accrued enough capital to retire. And if
8:24
you have accrued enough capital to retire, well, great news. If you're on less than 35 grand a year
8:28
you're going to get help with your fuel bills. It just seems a little bit unjust to me. I could be wrong
8:33
but by the time I reach retirement age I think it will be just disappear You know those dreams those anxiety dreams where you can quite reach the place that you going That what retirement age is going to be like for my generation I be just nearly there now nearly 60 oh sorry it 68 oh is it
8:46
69 now, 70, 71, did I say 71? I meant 72, 73 actually for Capricorns, but unlucky people
8:54
call James 74. It's just going to, nearly there, nearly there, nearly there. So why did Keir
9:02
Starmer elect to target this section of society. Yesterday, I made a discovery. You, not for the
9:10
first time, opened my eyes to something that I'd previously missed. The disaster of Keir
9:14
Starmer's welfare bill was that people on the left felt that it was cruel and addressing the
9:20
narrative of scrounging, which it wasn't. And people on the right thought that it wasn't attacking
9:25
scroungers enough and was not going to do enough to bring down the overall bill that the country
9:31
pays, that we pay in order to look after people who need a little bit of help. Particularly
9:36
in the context of the 10.2%, people who are on disability and sickness benefits
9:42
Why did he do it? Why did he go after that section of society
9:48
That's a question I want you to have bubbling away in the back of your brain as I invite
9:52
you to ring in to answer a different one. How big a mess has he made of this? If you're
9:57
not across the story, you should know that the climb down essentially means that nobody
10:00
who has been calling LBC for the last few months to describe how scared they were
10:05
about the imminent impact of this cut. Nobody is going to be affected
10:11
Only people who sign up anew for it from next November are going to be, well
10:19
denied access to what everybody who's already on the books, on the Disability and Sickness Benefits books, will receive
10:26
a lot of um uh mileage expended yesterday a lot of energy expended yesterday on mollifying the
10:35
rebels chief among whom meg hillier and debbie abrahams um were in 24 hours of talks i mean not
10:42
non-stop i'm sure they went to bed but the um the bottom line is it is being presented as another
10:50
u-turn it is being presented as a platform of massive concessions and it is however you want
10:56
to cut it, I'm afraid. It is the polar opposite conduct of what Keir Starmer insisted he would
11:02
be doing for the last few weeks. We've lost one frontbencher already, the government will be
11:07
saying to itself, and we can't afford to lose any others. Therefore, we need to reach this
11:12
agreement. They've offered massive concessions, which should be enough to get the bill over the
11:18
line at a second reading. We always wanted to protect the most vulnerable, not to destroy the
11:23
bill or cause the government trouble. We always hoped there would be an off-ramp and that's what
11:27
we have now. So government and rebels trying to portray this as a successful listening exercise
11:35
I think six months ago I'd have joined in, but there's been too many now. The winter fuel
11:41
allowance and now the welfare bill were both tattooed onto the foreheads of Labour MPs. They
11:48
had to bang on doors. They had to go out on the stoop and sell these policies to the people and
11:53
insist that they were necessary. Insist that they were necessary. And then they said suddenly, oh
12:00
no, they weren't necessary after all. I don't know what you do for a living. I'm trying to think what
12:04
the equivalent would be in your job. You're sort of assured by your boss that something is absolutely
12:10
necessary, even though it's unpopular. And you pass that on to your customers or your clients
12:16
your voters, and you deal with all the flack that's thrown up as a consequence. I don't think
12:21
there's an equivalent in my world. You deal with all the flack that has been thrown up
12:25
as a consequence. And then just as you're sort of dusting yourself down, picking yourself up and
12:30
starting all over again, they announce that no, actually, we're not going to do that
12:35
I don't know that this is actually as egregious as the winter fuel climb down. But I do know that
12:42
the tone of political reporting has changed. And it's changed so much that you have to begin to
12:45
ignore it. There's not going to be a leadership challenge anytime soon. Keir Starmer is in the
12:50
job for another four years possibly before he has to call a general election He might call one sooner And yet something about this story speaks to something as we touched on yesterday as we discussed yesterday something about this story
13:09
speaks to something that runs a lot deeper. I suppose what I want to know from you is whether
13:15
you're going to buy the idea that it is the result of a successful negotiation, or whether
13:23
Akir Starmer now looks like somebody who can never stick to his own guns on the really big stuff
13:32
on the stuff that his own MPs don't like. I mean, fair play to the fella for sticking to his guns
13:37
on farmers and VAT on private school fees. I like the workers' rights bill. I like the
13:41
renationalisation. There's quite a lot I like, and I'll run you through some of it shortly
13:45
because no one else in the British media is going to. But these two huge attempts to save
13:51
the government money. And I think you have to be very undergraduate to think that that is an
14:01
unnecessary mission. You can, of course, reach immediately for a wealth tack, or you can
14:05
immediately claim that we should be getting money from here, there, or everywhere. And I think
14:11
there's some truth in that. But there are mobile population, the mega, mega, mega rich
14:17
They're a very mobile population, more so perhaps than ever. And while a lot of the stories reporting an exodus of billionaires and millionaires turn out on closer examination to be a load of old toot
14:29
there is only so much you can do before the pips squeak
14:34
And what they have attempted to do is trim spending. And you tell me how you respond to this latest development from Keir Starmer's government. 03456060973
14:47
because the fear is that the people who welcome the climb down
14:52
will not be improving their opinion of Kirstama is that right? is that you
15:01
I'm glad he's climbed down but I don't like him more as a consequence I guess what I want you to tell me
15:06
I'm sorry for taking so long to get there but I wanted to get a few other thoughts
15:10
up and running this hour I guess what I want you to tell me
15:13
is what this makes you think of him, the Prime Minister. What this makes you think of him
15:21
And as ever on this programme, your opinion will always be more interesting if it is changing
15:28
If you thought he was absolutely awful or absolutely brilliant last week, last month, last year, and you still do, then great
15:35
But there's not a lot I can do with that. There's not a lot to explore, is there
15:39
There's not a lot to dig into. There's not a lot to explain. so you know you buy into nonsense like two tier kea or whatever the latest far right trope might be
15:48
that's great you know good luck to you but it's not very interesting it's not very intellectually
15:54
nourishing to examine how your mind works what i am interested in is is why things are changing
16:00
i'll examine why my own mind is changing a bit at the moment i haven't quite pinned it down because
16:05
at least at first today i'm more interested in you so how does and and and what i can't do is
16:11
separate the media coverage from the reality. I'll show you what I mean
16:15
Massive concessions on welfare bill win over key Labour rebels. One front page
16:19
I'm not going to tell you which ones they are. Starmer caves in to rebels on benefits
16:25
Starmer caves in to rebels on benefits. Don't worry, I'm not repeating myself
16:28
That's two different front pages. New hope on pips. You see what I mean
16:34
A completely different tone, message, delivery. Labour rebels force Starmer to water down benefits cuts
16:44
All of that. What I can't do is distinguish between what we actually think and feel
16:49
about the actions that have been undertaken and how much of what we think and feel
16:54
is a consequence of being conditioned by coverage, of which we're part, aren't we
16:58
We are coverage. You and me, when we talk about stuff, are providing coverage. So let's cut away, if we can
17:03
Let's cut through the noise. how do these how does this particular move
17:10
this concession this surrender this back down how does it affect your thoughts and feelings
17:17
about Keir Starmer
#Social Services
#news
#Politics
#Welfare & Unemployment