Up next in 10
As Donald Trump threatens additional tariffs on China, fresh concerns have emerged that his drive to rebalance the global economy could lead to a trade war.
In light of this, James O'Brien asked his callers: 'How do we make sense of the US President?'
00:00 - Caller Jennifer: 'He just loves the power.'
04:35 - Caller John: 'The best way to understand Trump tariffs is Red Dwarf'
09:38 - Caller Steve: 'He's got narcissistic personality disorder'
13:52 - Caller Pat - 'This is going to crumble the US into a pile of dust.'
Listen to the full show on Global Player: https://app.af.globalplayer.com/Br0x/LBCYouTubeListenLive
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0:00
Jennifer is in Eastleigh. Jennifer, what would you like to say
0:02
I would like to say that I think it's just he loves the power
0:06
but he gets off on the power and how much power has he got. He says something and the whole world trumbles beneath his feet
0:13
So he'll be enjoying this? He's loving it. I think he's absolutely loving it
0:18
You can only really, I think, understand things if you could imagine
0:22
on some level, being in the shoes of the person to whom it is happening
0:27
So it doesn't matter whether it's a tragedy or a crime or whether it is a sporting triumph or a political moment
0:34
And he is so odd that we can't. I can't imagine. Can you sitting in the Oval Office enjoying what is going on
0:42
It doesn't mean it's not what's happening, but we can't emotionally grasp that personality type
0:50
Have you ever, well, what about arsonists come to mind? People that are trivial arsonists
0:55
They set something on fire, then they come back and watch. I'll tell you what you're making me think
1:01
The question I'm actually asking this morning is about whether we're wasting our time on politics
1:06
and we should be focusing on personality. Well, I think so. It's not about politics at all
1:11
It's about power. And how he feels in the moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah
1:17
And you think he's currently feeling good? Yeah, he's feeling strong, powerful
1:22
Yeah, I mean, a life without conscience, without an inner voice, a life without shame
1:27
a life without any concept of consequences. To go back to Joe in North Cheam
1:33
I think the attitude to bankruptcies is really overlooked. I'll push it, I'll push it, I'll push it, I'll milk it
1:39
I'll milk it, I'll milk it, and if it all goes wrong, I'll walk away and leave someone else with the bill
1:44
And he's treating the United States of America like he treated his casinos
1:48
Yes, yes, yes. Take the money out, enjoy the chaos, and if it all goes wrong, walk away
1:55
Yeah, I mean, there it is. Are we wasting time on politics when really we should be focusing on personality? And I'm wary of this, largely because none of us or very few of us are actually qualified to describe what they're seeing with Trump
2:08
And yet even as I say those words, I remember that mental health nurse who rang in really early doors before the tariffs had even been, well, they'd been announced
2:19
They hadn't been implemented. When they were, of course, announced, everybody clever was queuing up to tell us to ignore him
2:24
Don't worry about what he says. Just worry about what he does. The stupidest people of 2025
2:29
But the mental health nurse who rang in and said he'd come across incidences of narcissistic personality disorder in his life, in his 30-odd year career
2:36
And it only encountered two or three people who had it on anything like the scale that Donald Trump appears to have it
2:44
I wonder if we need to try to describe what that means, how that translates into the kind of behavior that we're seeing
2:51
Threatening 50% tariffs, extra tariffs today on China would mean that they had a 103% tariff
2:58
which means that China, to import something from China into the United States, you have to pay for it twice
3:06
And then a little bit on top, 3% on top. I mean, an intervention of such obvious madness
3:12
that understanding its implementation probably involves understanding madness rather than understanding markets
3:20
104% tariff. I beg your pardon. Crucial difference. But that's bonkers, right
3:26
And the EU said, and again, this is stuff you might have missed because you're lucky you don't have to do this for a living
3:32
I'm joking. I wouldn't do anything else. Except possibly playing golf, kiddo Mr Harriers
3:36
But luckily, we've got a good one at the moment. The European Union offered zero for zero tariffs before this announcement was even happened
3:43
This has subsequently emerged. It's emerged overnight. He's been asked about it in the Oval Office. Ursula von der Leyen said, OK, on industrial materials, on industrial equipment, we'll do zero for zero
3:56
And they said no. And they asked him about that today. He said, is that not enough? And he said, no, it's not enough
4:01
So fairness is not enough. You see what I mean? How do you yze that
4:06
unless you have an understanding of the personality. And yet, I'm not going to lie to you
4:12
it feels a little bit like surrender in terms of what I do for a living
4:16
It feels a little bit like giving up. Oh, don't worry about the politics. It's all about the personality and quite possibly
4:22
not the mental health, but the diagnostic disorder, what it is that explains why he's doing what he's doing
4:29
And that's pretty close to where John Bolton goes this morning. And it's where I've gone with the petty, simplistic, vindictive
4:35
John's in Oakley. John, what do you think? I've known people like him
4:39
but they've never won a popularity contest that has thrusted them into the most important job
4:45
That's why he's unique in a way, isn't it? Because enough people are persuaded
4:48
that he is all the things he says that he is. He is because people have allowed him to be
4:54
But he's got no talent. He doesn't seem to be particularly smart
4:59
I just think he's an idiot. And every time, every time I hear
5:04
every time he makes this, It was two weeks ago. Sorry, I'm jumping
5:08
I'm doing a Trump. I'm jumping from one thing to another. What does he call it? The weave
5:13
The weave, yeah. Go on, you weave away, John. I've done a bit of weaving this morning
5:17
You feel your boots. The largest security breach in the history of the United States
5:23
was two weeks ago. We've not even mentioned it today. That insane When I think about Trump if you allow me to I can quote uh literature from 100 years ago but from red dwarf yes gone the um the the the time drive was frozen
5:40
rima asks do you think it's because of the subspace conduits have locked with the
5:45
transponder calibrations and caused a major tracheon surge that has overloaded the time
5:50
matrix and cry and replies no sir you've just been jabbing it too hard and i think that's a
5:56
bit like ysing Trump. You're a genius. Did you do that from memory? No, I don't know
6:02
You've got it written down in front of you. It's not Mystery Hour. I googled it. Yeah, you are allowed to Google when we're not in Mystery Hour
6:09
I'd be lost with that. Do that again, will you? Just do that again slowly so that I can sort of
6:14
pick it up later. The time drive had frozen and Rimmer asked
6:19
do you think it's because the subspace conduits have locked with the transponder
6:24
calibrations and caused a major a tachyon surge that has overloaded the time matrix. Crichton replies, no sir, it's just
6:32
you've been jabbing it too hard. So we're stroking our chins, and it is just the case of petty, simplistic, ridiculousness
6:38
He's just an idiot. He'll be on to the next thing in two weeks, and people won't be talking about the time
6:42
Yeah, but that's why he's also a genius. That's why he's also a genius, because no one else
6:46
can do this. No one else can do this. I mean, whatever you want to call it
6:51
People could do it, but they'd have to have no soul, no care for anyone
6:56
No care for the person who's just retired and they're weighing up their options for their pension
7:02
how they're going to live the rest of their life, and they've just, I don't know, they've got a few hundred thousand pounds
7:07
now they've got less. Yeah. He don't care. He doesn't, does he
7:11
He doesn't care. The veterans that he's laid off. Yeah. He doesn't care
7:16
Nothing matters. Except what? Except what? What matters to him? He's the man
7:24
Is that it? that people are bowing down to him. Everyone's looking at me. Everyone's bending their knee
7:28
Everyone's talking about me. I want to be the biggest reality television show of all time
7:34
is what I want to be. World leaders and kings are coming to me
7:37
wanting good tariff deals. That's what he wants. He wants a third state visit
7:41
I don't know. So you've brought... That is one of my favourite contributions to the programme
7:46
in a very long time, John. Thank you so much. I'm just going to spoil it slightly by saying
7:50
there is no need to say I'm not quoting literature from 100 years ago
7:55
It's Doug Naylor, isn't it? And Rob, I forget the name of the second writer
8:00
which is bad of me because I've met him. But really good art, whether it's a television comedy
8:05
or whether it's a Shakespeare play, tells us truths about humanity. And you've just absolutely smashed that truth
8:11
We're all sitting here wondering whether it's the subspace conduits or whatever it was
8:16
And it is just the case that we're watching a bull in a china shop
8:20
We're watching a toddler having a massive tantrum. There's still another dimension to it
8:24
which is how he gets away with it and why he is so, quote, good at it
8:28
Well, you can't end the show there. You've got to carry on. You see, you're doing it all now
8:32
You're producing me as well. And the other thing you've done when you talked about a soul is
8:37
should we be talking about priests, doctors and priests, or clerics, rabbis, imams
8:42
rather than economists and ysts or holodecks? Or is that Star Trek
8:47
Or Reddawth? John, mate, absolute top of the class today. That is it. I mean, I'm almost going to have to get that printed out so I can read it back myself
8:55
But that simple imagery of people sitting around choking, stroking their chins, as opposed to choking their shins, which I nearly said, stroking their chins, trying to work it out
9:09
And maybe that is part. Hey, come here a minute. Maybe that is part of the answer to the question of how he gets away with it
9:16
because we're still sitting there trying to work out how on earth he got away with the security breach
9:22
and he's just introduced tariffs. And you can sit there and stroke your chin and say, oh, I think you'll find he's only introduced the tariffs
9:27
to distract attention away from the security breach. But that's not true. The answer to how both things happened will be the same
9:35
and it is probably not very complicated. Steve's in Manchester. Steve, what would you like to say
9:40
Good morning, James. I've been scribbling notes while I've been on hold
9:44
I hope I can make some sense of it. I wanted to return back to the mental health thing
9:53
I have worked in mental health, but I'm not superingly qualified, and that's not the basis of my calling
9:58
Well, I mean, we can look through lenses, and I agree with everything that's been said so far
10:02
The reality show lens, WWE, the mobster lens, the con man lens
10:07
But there's a thing in psychiatry and psychology called the Goldman Rule
10:12
Or no, sorry, the Goldwater Rule, okay? It goes back to the 1960s, which sort of makes it official that it's to be to diagnose someone without being in a clinical setting
10:24
However, you can look that up, the Goldwater rule. Goldwater has been the US politician, funnily enough
10:31
Barry. But it's been challenged by a succession of professionals. The most notable is, or the one who led the charge on this
10:40
is called Bandy Lee, B-A-N-D-I is her first name. OK. Lee is her surname
10:47
And there's a couple of similar professionals called John Gartner and Harry Segal who do a YouTube show
10:54
I know that sounds... We're going to run out of time with all the name checks. So the Goldwater Rule in a nutshell tells us that we shouldn do what we about to do but we going to Yeah because he the most filmed person in history So you know dementia
11:10
They say he's got narcissistic personality or disorder, which is hardly a contentious thing to sort of say
11:16
No. But also that he has advancing dementia. Now, his niece is called Mary Trump
11:21
You may be aware of her. She's a clinical psychologist. Right. And she'll go along with all this
11:26
And the examples of what demonstrate the dementia, there's a thing called anemic aphasia, which is this sort of slurring of words and not quite completing words properly, which were more prevalent during the campaign, probably when he was more stressed, especially at night time, because he's also an addict
11:45
We have to remember, this isn't particularly contentious. There's a guy called Noel Kassler who used to work with him on The Apprentice
11:52
who testifies that he's an Adderall user. An Adderall is amphetamine. I've used Adderall because I've got ADHD
12:00
as you can probably tell by the way I'm talking. So basically later at night, it's bad
12:08
And he used to do all these campaign rallies in the last campaign. He tried to do them earlier
12:12
So the main punchline of what I'm trying to say, James, and it's very serious and it's very disturbing
12:17
I don't know what to do about it. The guy is genuinely mad. It's not just colloquially mad
12:24
It is the genuinely mad king. And he has dementia. His father had dementia
12:29
That's what the weave is all about. That's why he keeps banging on the back
12:33
And I guess, and I'm enjoying this conversation, and you're not going to believe this
12:38
but someone actually mentioned Brandy Lee in a text about two minutes before you came on
12:43
So proof once again of the calibre of my callers or that we're all singing from a similar hymn sheet
12:50
The question then becomes how does he get away with it? I think people have been, whether they like him or not
13:01
people have been subdued into the party area. We're losing the phone line
13:05
I'll give you a chance, but be warned. I think people have just become in awe
13:11
either of how much they like him for various stupid reasons or because of how they just can't agree upon how mad he is
13:19
It's so colossal. And I think that probably goes back to the reality TV thing
13:24
Because, of course, nothing is less real than reality TV. But because he played a business person on TV..
13:31
Everyone thinks he is this business genius. And I've had a couple of unfortunate experiences on television
13:38
myself but in the great um annals of things that never should have happened putting him in that
13:43
role where he could cast himself as a business genius may have been one of the greatest mistakes
13:48
in the history of western democracy steve you're on top form this morning and i'm grateful to you
13:52
pat is in san pedro in spain pat what would you like to say hola james um thanks for having me on
13:59
you're very well james yeah i mean this thing about what happens next just i'd like to address
14:04
that if I can very quickly. Yeah, of course. But just before, there's just something I
14:08
want to round off from your previous hour's conversation. But it's kind of carrying on anyway
14:12
Pat, so you fill your boots. Yeah, yeah it's probably a good segue. This whole thing, everyone gets
14:18
caught up in the typhoon that is Trump and we're all trying to
14:22
understand him, what happens next and I think we all know that he doesn't know what
14:26
happens next, so how the hell have we got a chance? And I think
14:30
is it Kidderminster, your hometown, James. It is indeed, yes. So we imagine this
14:36
Real Madrid come up with a new tactic and they sign a great big six-foot-eleven
14:42
clod-hopping centre-forward from Kidderminster Town's second team. Yeah. They play him in the Champions League
14:46
Don't really have a second team. But anyway, sorry, that's me splitting hairs. Carry on
14:51
Go on, then. They bang him into the penalty area. All the corners come raking in
14:56
All the defenders are around the giant while all the playmakers then just get the ball
15:02
and just slide it in. That, to me, is who Trump is
15:06
to the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025. He is the perfect fire that they set
15:12
to get people to run to, to try and put out while they get on
15:16
with their long-planned dastardly deeds, as it were. And he's not perfect
15:22
He's not perfect because he's unpredictable and self-obsessed, but he's the best available
15:28
He's the best. He's actually more than that. I think he's the best applicable because of his vicissitudes
15:36
He makes so much noise that makes people look away. It suits them down to the ground, yes
15:41
Yeah, it's perfect for them. It's absolutely perfect. Did you hear the caller? Did you hear the sort of gasp in his voice when he said it's two weeks since the signal
15:49
And everyone listening goes, oh, my day's two weeks. Which is why my trail this morning, the little clip they played towards the end of Nick's show
15:56
simply said, can this really go on for four more years? Well, I think with Trump, it probably can't
16:02
That's another side to this story. This story really is all about those dark masters
16:09
of the Heritage Foundation, Project 25. So it's your Curtis Yarvins, it's your Peter Theals
16:14
you know, that long streaky... Teal, apparently. I mispronounced that. I've been corrected
16:18
I'm sure I got corrected when I said Teal to Theal, and now I've said Theal and everyone's saying Teal
16:22
Do we know what it actually is, Pat? Well, I would change it to another word, but we're on..
16:27
Teal. Yeah, don't do that. It's me that gets punished. Teal. We running with Teal for the time being And to be clear we do have a B team I don want to get thrown out of Agbra next time I there I just thought it was an amusing interruption So and that explains Vance
16:43
That explains Vance. Vance is there as the heir apparent. Sir, that's exactly what I was coming on to
16:49
I was just going to mention another one of the Dark Masters, and that's that awful Stephen, what's his name
16:54
Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Miller. It looks like Stephen Miller, the dark progeny of a threesome between Gollum, Goebbels and Putin
17:04
An appalling man. But he's part of that inner sanctum. These are the guys that have been working on this and planning this
17:12
Now, Vance, he is the, I hate to apply this word to Vance
17:16
but he is the intellectual that they intend to put in place when Trump implodes or when they choose to explode Trump
17:23
So he's part of the plan and that's why you've seen this guy have this, you know, sort of Damascus change event from calling Trump Hitler to actually espousing it
17:33
Because they promised him the earth. They promised him the earth and he sees that the plan here, Project 2025 is already underway
17:42
There's no way Trump would have done as much as he's done in two months
17:46
I mean, that's far beyond any of his very limited capabilities. capabilities. So this has all been
17:51
in train, and they are looking to completely disassemble everything that's happening with the terrorists, everything that's happening
17:57
with cancelling the Department of Education, all of the doge layoffs with
18:01
must. It's all there to completely crumble the US into a pile of dust that they can
18:07
reform to something else. Now, that something else is an oligarchy. That something
18:11
else is not about the public good at all. It's all about
18:15
a large good good. What people won't know, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but what people won't know
18:19
is that they don't hide it. The more you dig into this, and you clearly have
18:23
dug into it, for the record, more than I have, but phrases like anti-equality
18:27
and anti-democratic are not controversial in the circles you're describing. Anti-democracy is the point
18:34
I mean, Teal has said democracy... Yes, democracy is the problem. It's this idea..
18:39
It makes me think of... I don't know, I keep referring back to novels, things that haunt me from novels
18:44
like, you know, people living on the street. I mean, abject, epic poverty
18:49
Poverty beyond anything. Yes, but I know we have homeless people living on the street
18:53
But, I mean, people who had a job. Well, I'm going to tie myself in knots in what I'm trying to describe
18:59
But the acceptance of poverty, that line from the hymn. I so agree with you. I so agree
19:05
And it's not only the acceptance of it. It's let it happen, but don't let it happen anywhere where we can see or feel it
19:11
And we're not responsible for it. So let it go into its own, create its own sort of nest somewhere
19:16
and we don't have to worry about it. And what worries me even more, James
19:20
even if we go beyond the whole sort of tariff thing and what comes next there
19:24
what worries me more is this huge rise in Gen Z who are saying that they prefer to go to the right
19:33
They prefer a dictator. There was a recent survey done in the UK. It wasn't quite as scary as you were told
19:41
The more you dug into that, the less accurate the headline actually was
19:46
But there's a direction of traffic that is of profound concern. And it's tied in some ways to the manosphere, to the Andrew Tate so-called influences
19:55
Which is also tied to the financial crash in 2008 and then COVID
20:00
I mean, everything that politicians have done in almost every nation has told people that we are not for you
20:06
We're not helping you. We're only making it worse. So little wonder that Gen Z has gone that way
20:10
And little wonder that a poorly educated America across all age strata can gather that way as well to help to make this project 2025 thing work
20:20
Well, there it is. And there's everybody's homework for today. And it is worth digging into
20:25
I'd also introduce you perhaps, not Pat, I sense, but perhaps a few people will be unaware of the word dominionists
20:31
I rely on Emma, who's one of my most tireless correspondents, to keep me up to speed with some of this
20:37
But I don't know the half of it because it sometimes sounded fanciful
20:41
And yet, what words would you have used to describe five years ago even
20:49
Never mind ten years ago, before Brexit even happened. Predictions of where the West has gone in the last decade
20:55
If someone had told you of the things that would happen. Oh, yeah, I'll tell you what, we'll have a prime minister
20:59
We'll send someone to the Queen to lie. And we'll treat him like a messiah
21:04
We'll trust him with everything. That's just on this side of the Atlantic. Hop over the other side of the Atlantic and describe what's happened
21:11
January the 6th being perhaps the biggest flashpoint, although where we are now is in danger of overtaking it
21:17
Fanciful wouldn't touch the sides, would it? You'd say, I can't say that on the radio
21:22
You would reach for a much stronger word than fanciful. If someone had described in 2016 what is happening
21:27
or 2015 what is happening now, you'd have thought that they'd completely taken leave of their senses
21:33
But some people have joined some of the dots. and most of the lines when the dots are joined lead back to, as Pat has pointed out, Project 2025
21:44
and dominionists. It makes sense of a lot of the stuff that's weird, up to and including the United States moving its embassy in Israel
21:53
But even as I say those words out loud, I think I'm sounding bonkers, right
21:57
And that's the word you would have used in 2015 to describe anyone who has accurately
22:03
or has turned out to be right in the predictions that they made then
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