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James O'Brien hears from callers as Labour reveals a plan to reduce the voting age in the UK to 16 in time for the next general election. The government plans to table a new law that would reduce the voting age by two years in a move it says would "boost democratic engagement."
Sir Keir Starmer said: "I think it's really important that 16- and 17-year-olds have the vote, because they are old enough to go out to work, they are old enough to pay taxes, so pay in.
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0:00
In 1969, they reduced the age of voting from 21 to 18
0:07
Had I been presenting a programme on this radio station, which didn't actually exist, in 1969
0:12
I would probably have sounded a bit like this, signed it, I would probably have signed it a bit like this
0:17
and I would have asked, how do you feel about the prospect of the 18-year-old in your life
0:22
being allowed to vote in the next general election? 03, 4, 5, 6, 0, 6, 0, 9, 7, 3
0:28
I would not have said because there wouldn't have been a phone-in show. But I don't even know how many people listening to this
0:33
Aguino, I probably just offended you, if you can actually remember what the debate in 1969
0:37
I hadn't even been born when the age came down from 21 to 18
0:42
But how will this debate be different? Should this debate be different? Is it just the question of a needle nudging
0:49
So 21 was the age at which point a certain type of personality thinks
0:54
well, things are perfectly fine, why are they changing it? and 18 is currently the things are perfectly fine why are they changing it and tomorrow 16 well
1:03
things are perfectly fine well i don't think they'll ever go lower than 16 although i could
1:08
probably um certainly in a sixth form debating society i could probably muster up an argument
1:14
that you should be able to vote from the moment you start secondary school you're probably more
1:19
affected by government policy when you are young than when you are old i get obviously pensions
1:25
notwithstanding, but everything else. Education, the military, the workplace, all of those things
1:34
I just, sorry, I'm a bit disturbed by the thought of a world without phone and radio now
1:38
I've discombobulated myself. How awful. That's a terrible dystopia that we've just conjured up
1:43
That would be, I mean, geez. So that's the question. What do you reckon
1:48
Why on earth would you not like this? I've got my internal alarm bell ringing
1:53
I don't like hardy perennials I'm not talking about gardening horticulture, I'm talking about
2:00
my job and that's why you don't hear us say should we bring back the death penalty
2:03
or how should we stop the boats I don't like lazy obvious questions
2:07
that don't admit very interesting answers I can sound a little bit snobbish
2:11
when I say this and for that I do genuinely apologise but this is in danger
2:15
of being a hardy perennial I mean I can't say don't ring me unless you've got something interesting
2:22
to say because everybody thinks they've got something interesting to say i think i'm
2:25
fascinating and i bore you rigid every day so you know pot kettle but i don't know are there any
2:31
arguments in this sphere that we haven't heard before if we were being very creative and
2:38
imaginative you could begin but you can't though can you because you could say well should there
2:42
be a cutoff point for voters but then i met i had the great privilege of interviewing bernie
2:49
Sanders on stage a few weeks ago in London and albeit that he's not eligible to vote in general
2:54
elections in this country he's quite an old fella and he is as sharp as a tack so the idea that
3:00
there would be a cut-off point based upon the general population's mental acuity is possibly
3:06
as absurd as arguing that because you know a 16 year old who won't get off TikTok for long enough
3:11
to read a news article that therefore all of them shouldn't get the vote I just okay here's the
3:18
thing i love it i absolutely love it i think that this is a wonderful wonderful thing that will
3:24
extend the franchise to parts of the population who are in severe danger of being completely
3:30
alienated by politics the only fly in the ointment of this announcement is if they don do anything with it if they don actually see this as an opportunity to start directly addressing young people making politics relevant to them and making policies that are attractive to them
3:45
Votes for 16 and 17 year olds are going to be on the statute book by the time of the next general election
3:51
It means if you're 13 or 14 today, you're getting a vote in the next general election
3:55
What do you think about this on every imaginable level? What it does to the franchise, what it does to the electorate
4:02
what it does potentially to election results, what it says about society and also what it says about this government
4:08
It's bold, it's new, it's fresh and it is almost entirely positive
4:15
If you're thinking of ringing in to say you can't trust 16-year-olds to vote, they don't do critical thinking, they're not properly across the facts
4:21
I've got one word for you. Can you guess what that word is? should we shout it out
4:26
don't do this if you're at work or in church listening on a little earbud or something
4:30
or in a library if you are a person of a certain age
4:35
and you're thinking to yourself I don't think young people should have the vote
4:39
because they don't understand things they don't do the critical thinking they don't know stuff
4:46
one word you know what it is right I mean come on
4:50
it should be actually painted onto the white cliffs of Dover. That's a warning to all comers. What a plague island we've become. If you think young
4:59
people can't be trusted to vote because they're not across the facts and you voted for Brexit
5:05
then I fully accept that it's far too late for you to give your head a wobble. But my goodness
5:10
me, you've got some front. How many people voted to become the first population in the history of
5:15
humanity to impose economic sanctions on itself because they thought that was a small price to pay
5:20
to indulge their hatred of foreigners or to boast about having swallowed the snake oil and lies
5:26
of people like Farage and Boris Johnson and Dominic Blumenra. Oh, no, we can't trust 16-year-olds to vote
5:32
How did you vote in the referendum? I voted for Brexit. How's that going for you? Oh, well, it hasn't been delivered
5:37
It's been scuppered by Remainers. It's very important that people understand things
5:41
before they form their opinions, say the people who understand absolutely nothing
5:46
In fact, if there were any doubt in my mind whatsoever, about the wisdom of extending votes to 16 and 17 year olds
5:53
The memory of what the older generation did to our country when they were allowed to vote upon membership
5:57
of the largest trading block in the history of the world should remove all reservations and conniptions immediately
6:05
Rob says you'd have to be naive to vote for any of these clowns and the 16 year olds are incredibly naive
6:11
No fault of their own like, he adds, suggesting that perhaps that text has come from the northeast
6:16
But I don't buy it. The problem is, you're thinking of a 16-year-old, you know, aren't you
6:21
I haven't got one at home at the moment. I've got a 17-year-old at home doing a politics A-level
6:26
knows more about politics than many people much older than them, by dint of doing a politics A-level
6:33
You know, you can talk to me about the Lib Lab Pact, which isn't necessarily going to influence a vote in 2027 or 2028
6:40
or whenever the next election is, but the idea that you can generalise about 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds
6:46
seems to me to be absurd. And if you're thinking that there should be a barrier to casting a vote
6:53
you've forgotten about Brexit. Alan's in Lewisham. Alan, what do you reckon? Yeah, I think it's actually quite a wonderful idea
6:59
to give younger people who still have hopes and aspirations and dreams a chance
7:05
to at least think they're going to... Oh, bloody hell, mate! Are you putting us on the sides that don have them anymore Oh those were the days Alan eh when we had hopes and aspirations Do you remember dreams Alan Dreams were great weren they eh
7:21
I don't know, mate. You know what, I'm 40 years old, yeah, and it's just like
7:25
everything for the last 20 years has just felt like one disaster after another
7:28
So it'd be nice if youngsters could actually turn up and be like, you know what, we're going to fix everything
7:33
we're going to make it all wonderful, and then I can retire knowing that the future's been taking care of. Have a little bit, a little bit more
7:38
So get them while they're still optimism. Get them before reality and life has chiseled them down
7:44
and turned them into cynical old misanthropes like you and me. Get them while they're young when they've still got hope and dreams
7:51
instead of ending up with people like, I don't know, honest Bob Jenrick in Parliament
7:56
I like it. Any reservations? I don't forget what Alan Hanson said, Alan, in Lewisham
8:01
He said you don't win anything with kids. That's true, it's true
8:05
But no, I just think politics has become so stagnant and we could just do with a little bit of a lift
8:12
maybe a bit more interest, because we had, like, what, the lowest voter turnout in history. I think it was very poor last time round, yeah
8:18
I think you're right. No, I like anything that injects a bit of pep
8:23
a bit of vim, a bit of elan into the political landscape. Thank you for that
8:27
I like that idea, actually. How are you going to engage the next generation in politics
8:31
if they are excluded from it? And this could be a crucial election. And also, it occurs to me, I mean, is it actually going to work
8:39
So what you need now is someone listening to this who is 14, 15, 16
8:44
You need to get your parents' permission to ring in, I think, if you're under 16, who is actually going to become more engaged in politics
8:52
And listen, let's not have an echo chamber. If you can see downsides, if you don't like the idea
8:56
and you can avoid the Brexit obstacle, because if your objections are based on young people can't be trusted to understand things
9:04
then I'm afraid Brexit completely destroys that argument. But if you've got a better one, then you're not just welcome
9:10
you're actively encouraged to contribute. Sam's been in touch. I'm listening now, James. I was 16 when that Brexit vote came about
9:16
I and many of my peers would have voted to remain. There is a notion that young people know nothing about politics
9:21
I can assure you that many are invested and would have been the difference between us being in the EU right now
9:27
and not being in it. You could be right. I mean, it was tight enough. Martin's in Newark. Martin, what would you like to say
9:33
Oh, James, I'm excited about it. I think it's really good. I think that there's something very observable
9:40
in the way that teenage brains change where they are full of empathy
9:46
Yes. And although that can make them vulnerable, I don't think vulnerability should discount a young person from voting
9:54
because old people are vulnerable too and we don't have discussions about people dropping off the other end of voting
10:00
once you're a citizen so if you're finishing with your education you're entering into jobs
10:07
paying tax well you've got to be part of a conversation you have to be because you're paying in
10:13
you're part of a gang at that point yes yes and you know the idea that
10:18
things that are going to affect people and those people should not be allowed to cast a vote based on them
10:25
is absurd I got distracted then when you were talking about vulnerability I was trying to remember where..
10:30
Because the thing is, I watch so much stuff that it gets mixed up. So it might have been in a really highfalutin intellectual play
10:37
that I've seen recently, but equally it might have been in The Equalizer starring Queen Latifah
10:41
But something I saw recently contained the correct information that our perception of risk is still developing when we young It why you know we do crazy things when we get the frontal cortex or there part of your brain that does risk assessment
10:57
Yeah. That is not, but that does, that... It's like a massive firework display for people up to the age of about 25
11:06
About 25 is when people's brains calm down typically. That's right, yes
11:10
Obviously there are outliers either side. So, yeah, I mean, it's a really exciting time
11:14
That's why they break away from families and go and find their own social groups
11:19
You know, you've got to kind of look back into the old animal that we used to be
11:23
Yeah. And I think we just reached that phase of life where it's time for us to take responsibility for ourselves
11:28
And, of course, everyone's going to be on a spectrum with that. Of responsibility and understanding
11:35
Yeah, absolutely. And that would apply to everybody of any age. And also, I suppose if we were feeling mischievous
11:39
If anyone did make a compelling case for arguing that 16-year-olds aren't sufficiently engaged to have a vote
11:45
you could simply say, well, they will be now. Yeah, absolutely. That would be the zinger in this conversation
11:52
Yeah, and I think the only argument you can put against it is an argument that, again
11:56
should be made for people of all ages, citizens of all ages. We need more explanation of how our democracy functions
12:05
That A-level politics, I did it years ago. It's a really good cause
12:09
and it really helped me understand how things are organised in this country
12:14
But I feel like everyone should have that. Well, they do something called Modern Studies now
12:17
which contains quite a lot of stuff on democracy, inequality, international crises, global trade, health care, those kind of things
12:26
I think you're a former teacher, so you probably know more about what kids are taught these days than I do
12:30
but I think it's probably better than it was when I was an A-level student
12:34
I think that's certainly true. I just think it could get better. because the way that that stuff works is it's at the discretions of schools
12:41
to decide what their PSHE component of their curriculum is. So they can kind of bend it this way and that
12:49
And that's partly a sop to private schools who do not want to teach anything about the body, let's say
12:55
and how it changes when you're in your teenage years. So, you know, you've got a lot of leeway as a school
13:00
and I really think that it would be wonderful if Bridget Phillipson came forward and said
13:05
every single person no matter the age here is a suite of learning materials for you to teach
13:11
yourself how our democracy works i think it could only be good and then the number of people that
13:15
still think brexit is a good idea would be in the low single figures presumably because um
13:19
knowledge is power uh it is that was me not martin i didn't i don't want to um put words into his
13:26
mouth i'd go further i think if you voted for brexit and you still think it was a good idea
13:30
you shouldn't be allowed to vote ever again until you publicly acknowledge how wrong you were and
13:35
identify who it was that misled you so profoundly and unpleasantly seriously that's what i do
13:40
unfortunately it's going to be like woodstock it's going to be like the opposite of woodstock you know how a few years after woodstock if everyone who said they'd been at woodstock had
13:47
actually been at woodstock then it would it would have been you know it would have sunk under the
13:53
weight of all the people that were there there's no earthly way every it's a bit like spike island
13:57
I did not go to the Stone Roses gig at Spike Island. But it's possible that I claimed I did for much of my 20s
14:04
I don't remember doing that, but remembering what I was like in my 20s
14:07
it is perfectly possible I claimed to have been at Spike Island when I wasn't actually at Spike Island
14:12
It was an interesting period of my life. It's possible I was at Spike Island and have now completely forgotten
14:16
but I'm pretty sure I wasn't. And Brexit will be like that by the time these 16-year-olds
14:20
who have been given the vote are my age. There won't be anybody around who admits to having voted for that nonsense
14:27
50 years ago
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