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Gavin Hewitt says Emmanuel Macron is 'plotting to become EU President' as he shared his thoughts with Steven Edgington in a GB News original. Speaking exclusively to GB News, political analyst Gavin Hewitt has claimed that French President Emmanuel Macron has his sights set on one of the EU’s top jobs, the presidency of the European Commission.Mr Hewitt warned that Macron’s ambitions are shaping his domestic policy decisions, as the French leader balances growing unrest at home with his European aspirations. “Macron’s ego knows no bounds,” Mr Hewitt said. “He is absolutely determined to position himself for the EU Commission role, and it influences everything he does in Paris.”WATCH THE GB NEWS ORIGINAL ABOVE
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0:00
The same was said about Tony Blair 20 years ago, that he wanted to be president of Europe
0:04
I mean, Macron, whose ego knows no bound, I'm absolutely sure that's what he's got his heart on
0:11
OK, Gavin, thank you so much for joining us. You wrote a piece recently in The Spectator about TikToks and how the Home Office are trying to deter illegal migrants from coming to Britain
0:24
Do you think this new strategy of the Home Office, by posting these TikToks, is going to work
0:30
No, it won't work. It will go the same way as every other initiative since the beginning of a century, really, whether it's the under the Blair government and then the Tories
0:42
There is no way to stop the boats or smash the gangs other than to do what the Australians did, which is to push the boats back
0:49
But no British government has the courage to do that. When it comes to these strategies, I mean, Labour say that they've deported 50,000 people or 50,000 people have left Britain since Labour came into power
1:01
Do you think Labour are handling it better than the Tories were when they were in office
1:07
No, not really. The one in, one out deal, as I said, I think 195 genuine asylum seekers vetted by the French have arrived since the deal was concluded in the summer
1:20
and 193 have gone the other way to France. So that's an indication of the utter failure of that scheme
1:32
The figures now, you see a slight change in the mood music this year
1:39
Newspapers running articles saying that net migration is down, etc. But if you dig down a little bit, that's mainly younger British people who are leaving
1:49
and EU nationals who are who are returning home. But the numbers of people coming from Africa illegally or legally or Southeast Asia and the Middle East legally
2:02
of course, it's the legal migration under Boris Johnson, the Boris wave, which has done the real damage
2:09
And it's this government shows. No, I think more than anything, Stephen, it's it's just the lack of determination
2:17
It's just endless soundbites. It's quite similar to France. I'm talking to you from France
2:26
And Macron, who came to power in spring 2017 in one of his first speeches at the Sorbonne University in September 2017
2:36
said that immigration, asylum seekers was one of the issues that he really wanted to tackle and that he would, etc, etc
2:45
in 2024 France experienced record numbers of illegal and legal immigration so France and
2:53
Britain are both on a race to the bottom. When it comes to tackling the illegal migration
2:59
a lot of people say you know you need to leave the European Court of Human Rights you need to
3:03
repeal the Human Rights Act. Do you think Labour are too wedded to the sort of system of human
3:09
rights the system of international law to ever even consider doing that yes i do i think they
3:16
they are it's interesting i wrote a piece uh a couple of weeks ago for the spectator
3:20
it's really um elaborating on what we've just talked about uh the successive governments who
3:28
failed to to to grasp this the issue of of illegal immigration and in 2001 2002 the home
3:36
Affairs Committee reported that one of the perhaps one of the initiatives that they had to
3:46
embrace was leaving the 1951 Refugee Convention which is said was no longer relevant to the modern
3:56
world so in fact we were willing I think if anything the left has retreated on the issue of
4:06
illegal immigration by which i mean it's got it's it's got weaker it's more frightened to tackle it
4:13
um and it's now just the left across with the exception of the danish government across europe
4:19
i think the left wing is so entrenched in the idea of of free movement that i see absolutely no
4:26
genuine will and determination uh to attack to tackle this issue and with this you know the
4:33
human rights industry it's a cliche but it's true and of course the left-wing newspapers at the
4:38
moment uh any government or any uh home secretary does say anything slightly bold they will immediately
4:47
be attacked uh and social media and there's just uh the the cowardice the moral cowardice i think
4:56
and the intellectual dishonesty is the two characteristics that have come to define the
5:02
British government's approach this century. You talk about morality. There's two ways to look at
5:08
this from a moral perspective. There's the kind of left-wing perspective, which is these are people
5:14
fleeing from war, from poverty, from chaos. We have a responsibility as a wealthy nation to look after
5:22
the world's poor and to look after those people who are fleeing from their home countries who would
5:26
face persecution in Syria, Eritrea, Sudan, wherever they're from. And then there's the kind of other
5:33
perspective, which is that illegal migrants have been raping and murdering numerous British people
5:41
You see lots of stories in the news about this. Almost every day, it feels like there's a new
5:46
case of where an illegal migrant commits a terrible crime against a British person
5:52
Do you see, do you think that the left, I mean, this Labour government, do you think it understands
5:56
that compassion when it comes to the native British people. I mean, when they see these
6:01
stories, how do they interpret that in their worldview? How do they look at these? Do they
6:06
see it like an isolated case? Or how do you think that they even like could process that
6:12
Firstly, just one of the more interesting stats of immigration stats, 26,000 migrants were
6:22
intercepted by the libyan coast guard last year and turned back to north africa 26 000 23 and a
6:29
half thousand were men so the vast majority are economic migrants we see that in the pictures and
6:37
the photos of the people coming across the channel in small boats the overwhelming majority are young
6:43
men now you mentioned about the the rape and the murder there have been a very few small incidents
6:50
it's I think more than anything it's the pressure on housing on the just the social
7:00
fabric the infrastructure and particularly the the Islamization of Europe that's a word that
7:07
the French use the whole time that the numbers coming from predominantly Islamic cultures who
7:15
have wildly different views about homosexuality, about women, about Jews. I think that's one of the
7:22
gravest aspects of mass immigration this century, the way it has just changed society for the worse
7:30
that way. And to answer your question, Stephen, no, I think the left have no compassion for
7:37
the indigenous population which incidentally includes British people of any colour but they they seem to be more interested about people from Africa the Middle East and of course the Danish immigration minister in 2023
7:57
who I quote in the article that you referenced at the top of this interview. He said
8:01
I am 200% left wing, and it is incumbent on any left wing government to tackle illegal immigration
8:10
because who suffers most? It's not the rich. It's not the bourgeois. It's the working class
8:16
And this just seems to have escaped the British and the French left
8:21
Let's talk about France then. So what's the French view of the illegal migration crisis into Britain
8:28
So the small boats. I know that the French government recently banned, I think, eight Britons who are going around trying to destroy some of these rubber dinghies and so on on the beaches
8:37
what's the kind of French public's view of this stuff and the French government's view
8:42
Well firstly it gets very very little coverage in the French press what's going on at the channel
8:47
the general view is better that they're in Britain than they are in France there's been lots of
8:53
trouble and of course the poor people of Calais I mean this has been going on even with the greatest
8:59
of respect Stephen since before you were born the Sandgate Club the jungle of the late 20th century
9:05
and they're utterly fed up with it. The French press, certainly the printed press
9:11
which tends to be very left-wing, doesn't cover it. Or if it does, it's sob stories really about the conditions
9:18
that the illegal migrants are living in. The French government, frankly, the French government is in such a mess
9:26
and has been for nearly two years since Macron called the snap election
9:30
in June 2024. it's still trying to push through a budget for this year after about five months of tortured
9:38
negotiations so they really don't care about it and they can expect no help well the british can
9:44
expect no help whatsoever from the french and a point i would like to make if i may steven is that
9:50
there was uh this idea mooted at the towards the end of last year about the french police perhaps
9:57
um puncturing the boats in shallow water to prevent them being launched and the police union
10:02
says no no way we're not doing that and i quite understand that because um the french police now
10:10
are increasingly are being taken to court by human rights lawyers uh they have not much support from
10:16
the government you may remember the riots of two the summer of 2023 when a policeman um shot a a
10:24
a 17-year-old French Algerian in a stolen car who was speeding away from a checkpoint
10:30
He's now being prosecuted for murder. So the French police just do not want to get involved
10:36
And one can understand why. So Macron called this snap election. Obviously, it backfired on him
10:43
What's the situation now in France? Is it just political chaos? It is political chaos
10:48
And this week, the appeal has started for Marine Le Pen's appeal against her conviction last year for misusing EU funds, diverting about four million euros of money from the EU, not for personal enrichment, but to pay her own party members
11:07
This is because for many years it was impossible for the in effect, a bit like Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen's party was debanked
11:16
So it was impossible to get any loans from banks. They refused to touch her
11:21
And so she has she was disqualified for five years, which eliminates her from next year's presidential election
11:30
He's appealed this. But her understudy, Jordan Bardella, who's 30 years old and and in some ways is seen as a better candidate
11:38
He's more right wing, left wing. Le Pen is very left wing economically, also a little bit softer than Islamism
11:46
Jordan Bardella, I think, is more conservative, more economically liberal and appeals to the to the middle classes
11:55
So they're really the one party that hasn't suffered neither from the conviction of Marine Le Pen or the political chaos that has characterized France in the last two years
12:08
A poll released this beginning of this week had Le Pen and Bardella on a 38 percent approval rating way out in front of anyone else
12:20
the current Prime Minister Le Corne was on 25 percent Macron was on 15 percent which is an
12:27
indication of just how despised he is and that's a great tragedy of France really that a man who
12:33
came to power in 2017 with so much hope invested in him that he was as he promised neither left
12:42
nor right but a break from the past the break from the failing past of 40 years has just actually
12:49
been he's he's deepened the sense of despair the sense of alienation and I can see no way
12:57
that any centrist is going to win the election next year I think increasingly it looks as though
13:05
it will be a showdown between Le Pen's party either her or Bardella or Jean-Luc Mélenchon who
13:11
is the French Jeremy Corbyn you talk about Macron's approval ratings being very rock bottom obviously
13:18
Starmer suffers from similar approval ratings. How has Macron reacted to the election of Starmer
13:27
Do you view the two figures as having those similarities? I know that Macron's been there
13:32
for a lot longer. Are they both in the same kind of quagmire politically? Absolutely. It's one of
13:39
the great contracts of Emmanuel Macron, which was he got away with it because of the, as I said
13:44
that the majority of the media in France is left leading, sort of centre left
13:50
And that is very much Macron. He portrayed himself. He set up this party, Republican Marche, and he said he was a centrist
13:58
But he joined the Socialist Party as a young man. He served as the finance minister in Francois Hollande's socialist government
14:06
He is a socialist, just as Keir Starmer is. So really, Keir Starmer is Macron's favourite prime minister
14:14
He absolutely loathed Boris Johnson, which I think many Brits can can understand
14:20
He didn't really understand Ritchie Sunak, though he was a banker. I mean, obviously, Macron is the we call a champagne socialist, what the French call a gauche caviar
14:31
So a caviar socialist. But he's very much of that that sort of center left progressive ideology dogma that defines Starmer
14:45
He's culturally Macron is the most left wing president of the Fifth Republic
14:50
He's more left wing in that sense than Francois Hollande, who is more of an old school socialist
14:55
socialist so i think um the two of them are and starmer has talked and i think he first visited
15:04
macron in 2023 if my memory serves me correctly and he since described him as a friend and i think
15:11
it's that genuinely does regard macron as a friend and they're certainly both as incompetent
15:17
as each other so we know that starmer has had lots of issues over the last year that have led
15:22
to his demise in the opinion polls. So obviously immigration struggling with the economy tax rises broken promises lots of U Every week seems to be another crisis incompetence in government the sacking of Sue Gray
15:38
It just seems like a complete mess. What's going on in France? Why is Macron struggling so much
15:45
Again, are there similarities? What kind of issues are French people angry about, concerned about
15:51
Very similar. Really, the parallels between the two countries are great. Let's talk about the economy first. Macron, when he came to power, was self-styled as the Mozart of finance
16:05
I quote, he's ruined the French economy. Public debt to GDP is risen from 98 percent to 120 percent in his nine years in office
16:18
the um the the what the french call the um purchasing power that's also stagnated um
16:30
everything is more expensive in the shops um and and that of course is infuriated the middle classes
16:36
in particular because they voted for macron and the belief is he was but he said we're going to
16:42
become a startup nation we're going to modernize the the economy and of course one thing he did
16:48
I suppose his flagship policy was the raising the retirement age from 62 to 64
16:55
But that's since been reversed in order to keep the government afloat
16:59
So he's he's backed down on that. He's as weak in that regard as Keir Starmer
17:04
But very similar to Keir Starmer, it's really immigration and insecurity, which are the issues that have most angered the French public
17:13
what are known as the OQTFs, the Obligations to Quit the Territory Francais, the deportation orders
17:25
In 2019, Macron made a promise that within two years, there would be 100% executed these orders
17:34
So anyone who was in the country illegally and committed a wrongdoing would be expelled
17:41
it's 7% in the seven years since and there have been some truly horrific crimes
17:49
committed by people against French citizens one of the most notorious was three years ago
17:57
the rape and murder of Lola a 12 year old Parisian by an Algerian woman
18:02
who was under one of these deportation orders and just last week Stephen
18:07
allegedly a 15 year old girl was raped by an algerian who again was under one of his deportation
18:15
orders and it's just the fact that macron never says anything about it it's as if he doesn't care
18:22
similarly with immigration as i talked about earlier he promised to get a grip on that and
18:27
it's just got worse and like starmer there's this real sense that he's simply gaslighting
18:33
the French public, that he comes in front of a camera, he says with sincerity in his eyes
18:39
don't worry, things are getting better. And the French look around them and see a country in
18:44
absolute ruins. There's this idea that on the continent, countries are much more willing to
18:50
break international treaties if it suits them. And even the European Union have been, you know
18:57
making different noises about deportations in Greece and other places recently. Why is it that France and Macron hasn't been able to grip the issue of illegal migration
19:08
Why can't he do these deportations? Is he too wedded to the international treaties, to international law, to human rights legislation as Starmer is
19:17
What's going on? Very good question. I think there's two points. Firstly, yes, he is an absolutely committed Europhile
19:26
And I think he's got his eyes on replacing Ursula von der Leyen as commission president when he steps down next year
19:33
I think there's going to be very few jobs going for him domestically. So despised is he
19:38
So I think that's part of it. But I also think that really that the the French
19:44
the French left have been marching through the institutions since a good 20 years before Britain, even 30 years
19:51
I suppose a lot of people date the left's takeover of Britain's institutions to the arrival of Tony Blair
19:59
Really, in France, it began with the 68th May protest, which is very much that this sort of bourgeois socialism
20:07
They then came to political power in 1981 with Francois Mitterrand. And ever since, the center-left socialists have got their claws into every institution
20:22
So, for example, the Constitutional Court, the Supreme Court, which is appointed by the president
20:29
and it's a nine-year fixed term. It was up until the beginning of last year, Laurent Fabius, who was the socialist prime minister in the 1980s
20:39
And then Macron replaced him with Richard Ferrand, who's one of his closest socialist allies
20:46
The State Council is run by socialists. The National Audit Office is run by a member of a socialist party
20:56
So everywhere you look, socialists are in power. And this, of course, has been said about Britain and the blob that in a way, the elected
21:06
It doesn't matter who's elected as as a politician or even as a prime minister
21:11
It's the it's the civil service, the functionaries, as they're known in France, who run the country
21:17
And that's very true. And I think it's all very well about saying that, well, things may change if Marine Le Pen's party come to power
21:24
But there's going to be a hell of a battle with the to change the constitution
21:30
And some Bruno Rattaro, who's leader of the centre-right Republican Party, I suppose, like the Tories, he recognises this and said that this is what's got to start because he wants a referendum on immigration
21:45
For example, he was Home Secretary last year, but the Constitutional Court said, no, we're not having one
21:53
So the power invested in politicians in France is really quite limited
22:00
And there will need to be fundamental changes. But of course, the centre-left socialists, having been in power for half a century, will not give up lightly
22:09
So I think it's going to be a very interesting and very better fight in the next few years
22:16
And hopefully it will be a peaceful fight because, of course, the other element, a very important difference between Britain and France
22:22
is that there's a very, very violent fringe of the extreme left in France
22:27
working class unlike the british working class um so the british um left-wing activists who tend
22:34
to be um very bourgeois you just have to look at their names and they're up in court for throwing
22:39
tins of tomato ketchup at van gogh's etc um there is an element of of extreme of an extremely violent
22:47
working class french left and it will be and we see them obviously rioting during mayday protests
22:53
and other demonstrations. If Le Pen's party do come to power next year
23:00
it will be very interesting to see what happens on the street. I want to get into all of that
23:06
But first, you mentioned something fascinating about Macron. Is there any possibility that he will become
23:10
the next president of the European Union Oh I think he love to do it And this is what the French press believe that this is what he wants his dream job And in a way of course the same was said about Tony Blair 20 years ago that he wanted to be president of Europe
23:27
I mean, Macron, whose egos knows no bound, I'm absolutely sure that's what he's got his heart on
23:35
And of course, he's in a slightly different, difficult position at the moment because we're talking on the Friday
23:41
tomorrow the saturday the 17th of january um von der line ursula von der leyen will be in paraguay
23:48
to sign this um mercosur trade deal with south america which has been 25 years in the making
23:54
and the french are bitterly opposed to it across it's one of the few cases where the french are
24:01
actually agreed across the political spectrum but it will be disastrous for french farmers because
24:07
um for europe will be flooded with with cheap agricultural um produce it will be very good on
24:14
the other hand for german industry particularly the car industry um and um macron has come out
24:21
against this and said that france uh are opposed to this deal frankly so what they're in the
24:27
minority so the deal will go ahead but what happens next uh the french farmers about 700
24:34
Tractors are going to be protesting outside the EU Parliament in Strasbourg next week
24:41
Some some councils have said that they will be refusing any South American food
24:48
So it's going to be quite this could damage Macron's credentials. It puts him in a bit of a bind. Does he stand up for France or does he tell the French it's for the greater good of Europe
25:00
I think he'll pay lip service to the anger of the French, but behind closed doors, he'll be very much for it because he doesn't want anything to derail his ambitions of becoming the EU commission president
25:14
OK, so next year we have the presidential elections and you've already talked about Bardella, about Le Pen, Mélenchon on the left
25:24
Let's say that Le Pen or Bardella, you know, or the right wins those elections
25:29
What kind of challenges do they face? And do you think that Le Pen and Bardella have the competency to deal with these challenges
25:37
yeah that's that's the question of people are asking particularly of Bardella he's 30 years old
25:46
he did go to university to read geography but left after about a year to to concentrate
25:55
fully on his political career he was identified at a young age as a rising star
26:00
what I'm trying to say is that he's got very little life experience and this is often used
26:08
against him his youth however it is worth noting that when um Mandani was elected mayor of New York
26:15
who's just four years older than Bardella and has got more life experience but less political
26:22
experience the left in particular were hailing it as wonderful and a breath of fresh air etc so
26:28
There's a slight double standards. But nonetheless, Bardella, he he is bland
26:34
I think even his greatest supporters would would not argue with that
26:40
But he he does have this strange appeal among the under 30s, the TikTok generation
26:46
He's very good. He's in his team at exploiting TikTok and social media
26:51
and he's he's very well presented he's been compared to a young jack chirac in how he dresses
26:59
so quite dark blue suits somber ties quite a slick haircut and i think that's the image he's
27:07
trying to cultivate he's he's very much trying to appeal not just to the young but also to the
27:13
to the over 50s to to the bourgeois he is more as i said earlier he's more economically liberal
27:21
and of course he doesn't have the le pen surname and i can't stress enough how significant that is
27:29
because there is particularly for for over 60s middle class people just the name le pen makes
27:35
them shudder because of jean-murie le pen the the founder of the of what was the national front in
27:42
1972 Marine Le Pen's father and that was a genuinely genuinely far-right party and two of
27:48
the founding members one had fought for the French division of a Waffen SS during the Second World War
27:55
a full Nazi and Le Pen was often in court for making anti-semitic statements which one has to
28:03
say judged in current climates by what some of what the left say in Europe were fairly mild
28:10
but nonetheless the he left the reputation of a thug and for the over 60s they haven't forgotten
28:19
that and which is why as i said earlier i think it it wouldn't be too disastrous if le pen
28:25
didn't win her appeal and was disqualified because i don't think bardella he's certainly not
28:32
i don't think they'd lose much in the way of clout at the polls it may even do them a little
28:39
bit of good uh but i think that the the main issues they'll be doing i said earlier it's going
28:48
to be taking on the constitution taking on the blob um because it's uh the the it's part of the
28:57
constitution really the this whole liberty egality fraternity written into the french constitution
29:04
constitution about looking after the the oppressed um which includes uh migrants and and
29:11
asylum seekers and just even tinking tinkering with those rules uh is going to be a huge process
29:20
they will of course also need to win an absolute majority in parliament so there are 577 seats
29:27
in the National Assembly. If they win over half, then they control the House
29:33
This was the start of the end for Macron in the 2022 presidential election
29:40
He beat Marine Le Pen, but then in the parliamentary elections a month later
29:45
he lost his party, lost their absolute majority. And if you lose your absolute majority
29:51
it really weakens your power to pass legislation so i think the the general consensus seems to be in france that
30:04
there has been a lot of talk recently about a union of a right a coalition with the center
30:10
right republicans and eric zimmer's reconquest party i think that won't happen for the presidential
30:18
election because le pen and bardella believe that they have enough support to to win that election
30:26
where they may need to have a union is the parliamentary elections um and to come together
30:33
with the center-right republicans and other parties on the issues of immigration and insecurity
30:38
to to secure an absolute majority and then they can dish out jobs cabinet jobs to to the various
30:46
parties and then they can really pass legislation and and look at changing the constitution to in
30:54
in order to pass the bills that they want to all right gavin thank you so much for joining us
31:01
appreciate it
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