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'I chose to FIGHT!' Nadhim Zahawi speaks out on Farage, Reform UK defection, Islam and migrants
Jul 14, 2026
Nadhim Zahawi has said he “chose to fight” for Britain rather than leave the country, explaining his decision to defect to Reform UK earlier this year.Speaking to GB News, the Former Conservative Chancellor said he considered moving abroad but ultimately decided to remain in Britain because it was “worth fighting for”.
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0:00
Hello and welcome to Fire at Will from GB News
0:13
My guest today is former MP for Stratford-on-Avon and member of Reform UK, Nadim Zahawi
0:19
Nadim, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Will. It's a pleasure to have you on
0:23
I've been wanting to chat for some time. it is quite rare to have MPs or former MPs
0:29
politically interested people who understand business, who understand a balance sheet, I would say
0:35
I don't think many Labour MPs could say the same. You have, when was it that you defected to reform
0:41
It's been what, about a year? It was in January. January. It's about half a year
0:47
Okay. Just over now. But essentially, I allowed my membership to lapse
0:54
at the end of 2025 because I really sort of started thinking about
1:02
where I think the country needed help, what was going wrong, where were things that were broken that we needed to fix
1:13
And I didn't think the Conservative Party had the right answers for it, neither historically
1:19
because I think I was the first, to put one of the first my hand up to say we made some terrible errors in government um and um
1:30
Nigel uh came to see me three or four times at home um through 2025 he reminded me that he had
1:40
uh taken the best on me to become uh leader of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister
1:45
unfortunately i disappointed him i dropped out of that race um but um you are sorry to interrupt
1:54
you you're not the only person who's had a mixed relationship with nigel farage over these you've
1:58
written some things about him in the past which have been negative i believe you sit once you'd be afraid to live in a country that was led by farage now again uh people change their minds
2:07
they change their minds all the time why did have you changed yours on farage well because i think
2:11
one when the facts change in front of you um then you're i think you should be big enough to to
2:20
reassess re-evaluate and change your mind um what are those facts i will tell you that i think
2:26
uh the country is broken you know within about three mile radius of this place everything seems
2:34
to be fine because it's sw1 and uh you know people are affluent and wealthy and if public
2:41
services don't work they can pay for them uh but beyond that um you know people are finding it
2:46
really really hard um in the home counties in um you know south of england north of england
2:54
west of england east of england in wales in scotland in northern ireland um things just are
3:01
not working properly yeah public services are overwhelmed i think you know it is no secret that
3:07
out of control migration, both illegal and legal under the last conservative government
3:15
has been an absolute unmitigated disaster for the UK, both economically, because if you measure GDP per capita
3:25
rather than just measuring GDP, you see that the return on that investment in people
3:34
is just not there. and then of course public services not being able to cope from not just health but also
3:41
policing and making sure that we've got you know safe streets all of that and I had a choice because
3:48
I'm very lucky you opened by saying you know I understand a balance sheet I've had a very
3:52
successful business career I've made money I've been able to you know make choices that many other
4:00
less fortunate people, unable to make. And the choice was, do I go and live in Monaco
4:06
or in Milan or Dubai, or Abu Dhabi, countries that have very good education
4:15
very good track record on safety and security, strong economies that grow
4:24
that invite entrepreneurs and wealth creators to come and build businesses. some have got zero income tax
4:30
but the choice is it's fight or flight and I chose to fight because I think this country is worth fighting for
4:39
it has certainly made me when I wake up in the morning and shave my head
4:42
and I look in the mirror I have to pinch myself a boy that was born in Baghdad
4:46
came here at the age of 11 with almost no English to then live in 11 Downing Street
4:54
as Chancellor of the Exchequer is a pretty remarkable journey, but a journey that I think is unique in many ways to this country
5:01
Lots of other countries elect MPs from different ethnicities who choose to integrate and choose to build their homes
5:13
and put down roots in the US or in other democracies, but very few in a seat like Stratford-on-Avril
5:20
97.6%, I was 98% white, affluent, middle-class farming communities voting for Nadim Zahawi five times over to be their champion
5:31
their representative in Westminster. So this is the greatest country on earth, in my view, and it's worth fighting for
5:37
So when Nigel came to see me, he said, look, you know, here's my plan for the country
5:41
and it is genuinely about family, community, country. and I you know
5:49
in many ways tested him you know we travelled together to the Middle East
5:53
and I saw him at close close contact almost and you know
5:59
you always find out what people are like even your closest mates
6:03
when you travel with them and some you don't want to ever travel with ever again you still want to
6:07
keep them as mates but not as travelling companions but others you get much closer to
6:12
and Nigel was that in that category, I was very impressed by him
6:18
He wasn't overwhelmed by the petrodollars or the billions and trillions. He pushed back where he needed to
6:25
but he also listened and took on the evidence, for example, around the malign influence
6:30
of the Muslim Brotherhood, both in the region, but also here back at home
6:35
and has made it a reform policy that we will prescribe the Muslim
6:40
ban the Muslim Brotherhood on the economy. what Rob Jenner could do
6:46
Let's take these in turn. Let's take these in turn. But I note and I respect that instinct
6:54
to look at politics as a means of serving the people. I'm well aware you don't need to do this job
7:00
You don't need the money. Someone like Farage doesn't need the money. Someone like Rupert Lowe doesn't need the money
7:06
So that's almost a throwback to an earlier era in public life
7:11
where you have people who make their name, who make their wealth and then they come back and they think of politics as a means of serving
7:17
It's more of a 19th century model, perhaps. I've got a lot of time for that
7:21
When you did make that decision to defect in January it was met with a mixed response by the reform base And we mentioned a balance sheet If you look at a balance sheet of your defection people will say look there are very few people
7:37
who are talented and have an instinct for business in politics. You obviously do. You have experience
7:44
as Chancellor of this country. It didn't end in the way probably you would have liked it to
7:48
but at the same time, that's a handy thing to have on your CV and that's handy experience. and you bring experience across a range of different portfolio areas to this job
7:58
which reform will need given that they are a startup political party. At the same time, your critics have said that you represent a brand
8:05
of conservative establishment politics, which reform was set up to fight against
8:11
How do you respond to those accusations? And on balance, I think I know your answer, but tell me on balance
8:17
why are you a net asset to reform as opposed to a net negative? So I've always been an outsider in many ways. My background wasn't through being a special advisor or political advisor or insider in politics
8:34
I was an engineer out of University College London, an entrepreneur, founded YouGov, took it public in 2005, stayed on for 10 years as chief executive officer
8:43
when I entered Parliament my sort of generation of MPs, the 2010 intake 149
8:53
new members of Parliament on the Conservative benches, I was tipped to be the rising star
9:00
the guy who's built this business engineers understand the process so they'll be able to
9:04
really fix things, I languished on the back benches for 8 years because the cliqueiness
9:09
of the group around And George and Dave, George Osborne and David Cameron
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just didn't think that someone with my talents, I don't know, like the cut of my jib
9:22
I don't know what it was. Anyway, I think I know, because I stopped them wanting to deliver
9:27
for the Lib Dems vandalism of our democracy, because they wanted to abolish the House of Lords
9:34
and replace it with an elected Senate to please Nick Clegg, because they'd promised him in the coalition agreement
9:39
that they would. and I led that rebellion and we won. We actually stopped the government from doing that
9:47
Can I ask for a personal reflection on that because you've come from being
9:51
exceptionally successful businessman. You're used to getting your own way. You're used to people, you know, clicking your fingers
9:56
and saying, get this done and people will get it done. And then to go to being effectively a junior
10:02
in the political sphere. How is that for the ego? It's, so I would just step back a second
10:10
successful business people don't click their fingers and get things done. What they do is build great teams, right
10:15
You surround yourself with people with talent. I like to think most people that work with me and for me are more talented than I am
10:24
And then you empower them, you enable them, and you give them very clear targets
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And lo and behold, things happen. Things start to work, right? That's the difference between sort of business and politics
10:38
because actually in politics, what I found odd is it's not the hard work you put in or the talent you have
10:46
or the ability to build teams. It was whether you found a patron. And many of my colleagues who end up in Cabinet
10:53
and I'm not going to embarrass them and name them here, end up holding the highest offices in the land
10:58
basically said to me, sometimes at the end of work over a pint
11:04
is you haven't found yourself a patron. My patron is George Osborne
11:08
And I know as in a senior conservative who would take you under their wing and then promote you as part of their entourage as they plan their ascent to power and to the keys of number 10
11:25
And I have to tell you, you know, when you asked me the question, it really is genuinely one that always puzzled me and pained me in a way
11:34
Is I went into politics thinking, actually, you know, your talent will just basically be recognized
11:41
If you work hard and you demonstrate you can deliver and you can make the machine work properly, then you'll be recognized for it
11:51
And actually it doesn't work that way. You know, much of politics, including in my previous party, in the Conservative Party, was about people who were able to sort of, it's almost like a sport to them
12:03
As in, you know, can I get the keys to number 10? Because I'm just much more, you know, able and talented at communicating and at corralling my colleagues in Parliament to support me without really knowing what they want to do with power
12:19
without really knowing what outcomes they want to deliver against. Yeah, I mean, maybe that's unfair to overgeneralize
12:27
or to tire everyone with the same brush, but it almost felt to me, unlike business
12:32
where you have very clear targets, right? Business is all about outputs, right? You live or die by your profitability, by your sales, right
12:41
Your customer service, all these KPIs, right? Key indicators that you work to are really important
12:49
It's not the same in politics. It was almost, even in the Conservative Party, which is meant to be the party of, you know, enterprise and small government
12:57
and, you know, government that delivers for the people, delivers value for money
13:01
It felt like almost it was just a competition between, you know
13:07
Oxbridge types who just would deliver a better speech than the next guy
13:11
My question to you would be following on from that. How do you stop the same thing happening in reform
13:15
Some people are looking at reform as it is scaling. They're looking at some power plays that are happening within this party
13:21
They're looking at Zia v. Jenrick, for example. They're looking at Farage hoping to maintain his particular control on power
13:28
and potentially looking a bit frazzled as he does so. As this party scales, how do you stop the exact same things happening in reform
13:35
as you saw happening in the Conservatives? Well, first of all, I think the big difference is now reform is no longer a startup
13:43
It's actually a scalar, right? It's already scaling. And scale is hard, by the way, in political movements or inside of government
13:52
The reason most departments or most ministers tend to not do very well and fail because, you know, pilototitis, maybe I don't know if that is a word
14:04
but what civil service do just to keep a minister, you know, quiet and tame is give him a pilot
14:11
If he's overly energetic, then let's set up a pilot for you, Minister
14:19
And there are pilots all over the place. But nothing ever gets to scale, to work properly
14:25
That's the hard thing. And it's hard in politics. And actually what Nigel's done, he's reached scale
14:30
You look at what we've done in the local elections. Thousands and thousands of candidates were properly interviewed, vetted, and put forward as reformed candidates
14:38
you know almost 1600 councillors now we've won all over the place you know we really are the only
14:44
right of centre party today that can lay claim um to being a truly national party uh we won in
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wales we won in scotland we won in manchester in you know places where the concert party has never ever in my lifetime i joined the party Party when I was 18 and I left when I was 59 has never been able to penetrate in the way reform has done
15:07
So that's on the sort of the right side of the balance sheet. On the other side is, of course, you've got to maintain that laser light focus on delivery
15:18
And I think the big difference is Nigel, because the way he chooses his talent, his team, his bench, right, is people who can really deliver
15:29
Right. You look at Zia, Rob, Richard Tice, Suella, right, everybody, Sarah Pochin, everyone
15:38
um lee anderson right is focused on delivery delivery delivery taking over the chairman
15:45
is out there right building that um uh capacity on the ground uh both physical and digital
15:55
um zia complete focus on fixing the mess that is the home office right um rob making sure the
16:05
economy's most dynamic economy. We've lost so many wealth creators to this country. It
16:08
breaks my heart. You know, I travel all around the world, right, on business. I go to Washington
16:15
D.C. and they're like, what are you guys doing? We've never experienced a government under
16:22
conservatives or now under Labour who deliberately harms themselves, whether it's Chagos or, you know
16:30
basically turning away billionaires and millionaires because we don't want them here because we overtaxed them
16:38
You know, all just things as simple as just regulations, making sure that actually we're, you know
16:45
our regulations speak to where investors are telling us we're going wrong
16:50
It's not, it's not, most sovereigns will tell you that it's not the legislation
16:55
it's actually the regulators that are standing in the way of them making further investments in our country
17:00
All these things, right, we've got a top team that's doing that work
17:04
That's my observation. And the big difference is we don't have, and people say to me
17:09
why don't you unite the right, right, bring a coalition of parties together
17:16
That was the problem with the Conservative Party, right? Because of its legacy and its history
17:20
you had all these different factions within the party that would never, ever deliver on coming out of the European Convention on Human Rights
17:29
yeah right as an example why because they pay lip service to it but behind the scenes you know a
17:36
third of your mps are briefing against you because saying no no no no no we're not leaving the
17:41
european convention of human rights right we don't want um uh to really seriously take on the the
17:49
the challenge of 200 000 males of fighting age now actually being here right and rising every day
17:57
with no documents and we don't know in any other country in the world right you think about it any
18:03
other country in the world right this would be a national emergency you'd recall parliament if you
18:07
have to because it'd be national emergency on the levels of pandemic yeah right yeah and we're sort
18:13
of almost um drugged to believe you know taking morphine to say it's no big deal right as we sit
18:25
here today right and the sun is shining outside hundreds of men right from afghanistan iran um
18:33
you know iraq pakistan bangladesh sudan yemen right all countries where there is islamic radicalism
18:44
right there are war um uh warlords are being people are being shipped here without documents
18:54
and we know nothing about them and all we do is just pay more and more for their upkeep
18:59
how is that not a national emergency so all these things i think where nigel is absolutely clear
19:05
what really impressed me by the way what the thing that really took me over is he said to me
19:12
i'm not interested in the keys to number 10 as you know with these sort of etonian games
19:19
I want to get things done right he's three years older than me roughly
19:26
and he says I need people who've been in the room who will not get phased by
19:34
the civil service will know how to deal and get things working properly
19:42
and you've done it, you did it for the Her Majesty's funeral
19:46
you did it in the jabs in arms, no matter what your views on the vaccine
19:55
we built an infrastructure for healthcare that is second time from a standing start
20:03
So all these things, I think he appreciates that he needs people around him
20:10
that will deliver the first 100-day strategy and then beyond that. and you look at what Danny Kruger is doing
20:17
what James Orr is doing on this work, we've got real depth and strength of talent now
20:24
And I think actually the reality is you don't want to be in coalition
20:28
You don't want to be a sort of broad church of the right because you're getting nothing done
20:32
At the same time, and by the way, Danny Kruger was in that chair a couple of weeks ago, and I was impressed with the way
20:37
that he's thinking about how do you actually push through change in Westminster
20:43
time at the same time then you set up you go you understand electoral realities better than most i
20:48
would suggest you know at the moment if the polling numbers were replicated in a general election
20:53
reform would not have a majority um so i can understand your principled argument there but
20:59
there is an argument around electoral realities as well and how do you reconcile those two things
21:03
by continuing to demonstrate to the nation that you have the response
21:12
both in terms of policy, but also urgency to get things delivered
21:18
We're probably polling somewhere between, I reckon, 27 and 29 points today
21:26
We need to get to about 32, 33, and we'll have a majority
21:33
About a quarter of the Conservative vote at the moment, the 18 points they're getting, is thinking about reform and thinking that actually the only way you get rid of this government, because all we're going to get, by the way, is Keir Starmer with casual wear and probably a little bit better at communicating
21:57
But you're already seeing the same thing happening again. I am worried that last night, I think the team around Andy Burnham were briefing out that they'll still give billions to Mauritius and sign up, give up UK sovereign territory and pay money, billions of pounds
22:14
By the way, it's not money that we have. Right. I keep reminding anyone willing to listen to me because I was Chancellor of the Exchequer
22:23
We borrow money. We run a deficit Right There are economies that are on surpluses You run a surplus If you are the uae and you running a surplus right you have every right to be generous right your your uae aid
22:36
into gaza massive yeah right billions and billions of dollars why because you run a surplus we don't
22:44
run a surplus right we borrow money so every penny we spend on aid on um this mad chagos deal
22:53
is money we're borrowing. I often say this is a poor country that still thinks it's a rich country
22:58
and that mentality is one of the great problems that modern Britain faces. Right. And so ultimately
23:03
if you're going to get rid of this government, the only choice you can make
23:10
and that's the conclusion I can, I mean, I'm evidence-based. You said about, you know
23:13
it's all about, you know, working with clients who are paying us
23:18
to do the research, to do the hard work, the evidence, and then work with them on strategy
23:23
So I'm evidence-based. And engineers are always evidence-based. Everything's about process. And show me the data
23:30
The data says, actually, what we need to do is continue to drive the message home that we've got the solutions to fix this country, to turn around this country
23:42
It is broken. You try and get into A&E in any hospital, not just in London, in anywhere in the country within a reasonable time period
23:53
right a minimum wait is four hours um uh you try and get your kids to the to half decent school
24:02
no a friend of mine just uh tried that with three of children they were offered the least well
24:08
performing school in their county because all the other places have been taken by the high levels of
24:12
immigration right that can't be right that's not being nasty that's just the fact on the ground
24:17
that cannot be right. And so I think it is incumbent on us in reform
24:24
to demonstrate to those 5% or 6% of the Tory vote that actually voting Conservative
24:32
will just mean you keep a Labour government, or worse, a rainbow coalition of red, yellow and green
24:40
Actually, what you need to do is vote reform because then we can turn this country around
24:46
And you've seen it with Maloney in Italy. You have two or three big delivery projects
24:55
And then the country begins to believe that you can do this. And we can do it. This is the greatest country on earth
25:00
It is a nation of entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, as the great lady famously said
25:06
This is a great country. And people want to be here. They want to invest in the UK
25:10
They just tell me, you know, your government gets in the way. We're both examples of that
25:14
We're both immigrants to this country. Sometimes I think in darker moments that I border the Titanic
25:21
after it hit the iceberg, but I am reminded, to your point, of the very best elements of this country, and you're right
25:28
It is worth fighting for. I want to quickly get your thoughts on Chagos because you did bring it up
25:34
and you're right in saying that it sounds like Burnham, and I just find this extraordinary
25:39
We'll continue with this. Of course, one of the great problems that the Conservatives have is that pretty much every single Labour disaster, you can say to the Conservatives, well, either you had that idea initially or you had the opportunity to fix it initially and you didn't
25:58
And with Chagos, the Conservatives, James Cloverley started entertaining this idea long before Keir Starmer came on the scene
26:05
what I don't think people understand and again this is one of those ones where not only does this
26:11
fail the the pub test um you know it gets booted out of the pub and put in jail for the night
26:16
it to give away British sovereign territory and then pay for the privilege of doing so
26:22
people don't understand you know I've heard of bad ideas in politics and policy ideas
26:28
but I can't really think of too many other policies where there is just no argument for it
26:33
Do you have any insider insight as to try and still man it for me
26:38
What is the argument for this? None. It's extraordinary. And how much he will wriggle and squirm about this
26:57
I wish James Cleverley would just come out and say, I am sorry
27:01
I made a mistake. I should have just killed this idea off
27:05
as soon as some woke civil servant brought it to me. Is it leftist colonial guilt
27:11
Is that really what's at the root of this? It's mad. It's completely mad
27:15
And he should have killed it. And he didn't. It's no wonder his nickname was Cue Card Cleverly
27:21
in the FCDO. And I wish he would just come out and sometimes you're a bigger man
27:27
if you admit your mistakes. And I feel, by the way, so much better
27:32
When I defected to reform, I stood on a platform with Nigel and said, I am sorry
27:38
I'm sorry. There are things that happened under my watch when I was part of that team in Cabinet that we made a terrible
27:44
including the lack of control on our immigration and our borders. And I wish James would say the same thing
27:56
I wish he'd come out and say, look, I shouldn't have just taken what was on the cue card and agreed with it
28:02
I should have literally, I don't understand. Honestly, if that had come to me as Chancellor and hadn't
28:12
I would have killed it immediately. Because it would have had to come to me for the money
28:17
And it'll go to, you know, went to Rachel Reeves and it'll go to whoever is Chancellor next
28:22
I would have said, no way. What do we, first of all, why are we giving up British sovereign territory
28:26
in a world that is so uncertain? You look at what's just happened in the Middle East
28:31
what is happening on our own continent with the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia, right
28:38
You look at the speed at which defense technology is moving forward
28:44
You know, we are entering a world of Star Wars where actually strategic bases are going to be massively important, right
28:53
Why would you give up, right, an inbuilt advantage, right, to keep yourself secure and your allies secure
29:01
and then compound it by saying, I better pay you for it
29:07
I mean, what kind of self-harming idiot would think that's a good idea
29:16
You obviously have a very astute knowledge of geopolitics. Would a Foreign Secretary, Rob, be of any interest to it
29:22
I will serve as part of the team wherever I am asked to do so
29:27
I think this country could do so much better on the global stage, not only because we've got deep relationships and history with many parts of the world, including the Middle East
29:44
We've never been clear eyed about how we build on those relationships
29:49
Let me give you an example. You know, we take the Gulf countries
29:53
that are sort of one basket of Gulf countries, including the last conservative government
29:59
It was very hard to get Kemi, when she was Trade Secretary, to sign a CIPA, which is an agreement with the UAE
30:11
which would have moved much faster. Countries like India and Turkey did that very quickly
30:17
and increased their trade by billions and billions of dollars. And the response came, no, no, no, no, we can't do that
30:24
We have to look at them as the GCC as a whole
30:28
And I'm like, why? Other countries have done this. In fact, what it does is it accelerates the others
30:33
because then suddenly there's that sort of, you know, the FOMO thing, right
30:37
Well, if the UAE does a CIPA, why aren't we doing a common economic partnership agreement
30:45
with the United Kingdom? And I think the world is changing, right
30:53
And you look at, let's take the Middle East, right? The Abrahamic Accord countries with India, with the United States of America, in my view, are on the right side of history
31:07
It's about economic cooperation, technological advance, education, prosperity for your people. Right. These are clever, sustainable, fast growing economies
31:21
And then you've got the large populist countries that are much more challenged in the region. Iran has huge challenges ahead of it because its government is just not focused on delivering for its people
31:40
it's focused on wanting to um weaponize and have a nuclear weapon and and and use proxies to
31:48
destabilize and attack others in its neighborhood um and i think you know you can literally go
31:54
through country by country and work out which ones are uh economically challenged big populations
32:00
uh governments and they're not really doing uh well and therefore you know displacement activity
32:06
takes place they start um uh you know looking elsewhere for for for reasons uh for their
32:14
failures um and i think we we we should be leaning into those countries like the abraham accord
32:20
countries um and getting much deeper making those very clear choices um you see france doing it um
32:28
with the UAE as an example, Greece with the UAE. So I think there's a huge opportunity for us
32:38
on the international stage to work both with our allies
32:48
building on what Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan did for the whole world
32:53
Safeguarding, protecting those trade rules took 700 million Chinese out of extreme poverty
33:00
Why? Because they were able to trade with the rest of the world. Those are the things that we should be proud of
33:07
Be clear about the change of policy within China and the threat that that country poses
33:17
if it continues its direction of travel vis-a-vis its foreign policy. But at the same time, we have huge opportunities to build
33:33
with NATO, with the United States of America, a world that we shape at the moment, sadly
33:39
and we're embarking upon a NATO summit. You know we seen as the laggard We way like the way we treated defense both on the conservatives and labor is just heartbreaking yep a few other things i want to get your thoughts on in the time we have
33:55
left uh you are a muslim uh it would appear you wear your religion relatively lightly in public
34:00
life although feel free to challenge me or to to amend the record uh there are some members of uh
34:07
or some supporters of reform who would be uncomfortable with that for the record at
34:13
scale i don't think that islam is compatible with a western liberal democracy but i don't
34:17
have any problem with individual muslims who integrate into this country whatsoever what would you say to to uh supporters of reform who may be uncomfortable with your muslim faith
34:27
and does it impact on the way that you approach public life i think there's a fundamental difference
34:37
Islamism and the Muslim faith. What do I mean by that? Political
34:44
Islam, I completely agree with you, is not compatible with our values
34:52
Western democratic values, let's put it that way. Why? Because it is
34:58
very clear. And they don't hide this stuff. They are there to
35:02
build a caliphate with very different values very different system of governance oppression
35:11
would be a better term than governs right and that's completely incompatible but to the many
35:18
thousands of british muslims who absolutely make the distinction between their faith which is
35:27
between them and their God, that is in the same way as Christianity
35:33
or Judaism or Hindus worship their God, there's a separation, right? There's no question of it entering politics
35:47
That's where I think we have lost, i.e. successive political parties
35:56
labor was the first now the greens entertain political islam why or at least turn the other
36:05
way um if one wants to be um a little gentler on labor i don't think they just simply did that i
36:13
think they actually entertained political islam um within their party because they they they thought
36:21
But, you know, getting that Muslim vote, whether it's a good or bad vote in terms of, you know, those two different ways of behaving
36:32
i.e. if you just happen to be a Muslim in faith, but actually believe in our values and our democratic institutions
36:44
and assimilate and integrate into that and celebrate Britishness versus someone who wants to come and actually damage
36:59
and do harm to our institutions, to our values, to our communities
37:04
because they think they want to live under a theocracy, a political Islamic movement
37:12
Those two things, as I say, are distinct and different. And actually it's incumbent on anyone in politics, in my view
37:22
and it certainly is under Nigel Farage's reform government, is we're very clear, right
37:29
Political Islam has no place in our country in our communities in our society and we will go after it and go after it hard Right And I think that I hope I can make a real contribution to that because so much of this
37:45
and you saw it with Henry Novak, you saw it with, and in that case, it was a Sikh, but
37:51
But the same weakness of action led to a murder of an innocent white boy because the police felt, and the same thing applies to the Pakistani Muslim rape gangs
38:12
because the white society felt that it is wrong to challenge some of these men
38:26
or at least they were shy from taking on some of this very clear evidence in front of them
38:34
that these cultures, these Pakistani Muslim men, were clearly criminals and evil
38:47
but no one wanted to challenge it because it was felt that it somehow goes against
38:53
this sort of multicultural attitude. No, I think if you're going to build a harmonious community
39:01
a society that works well together. I referred in economics earlier on to the UAE
39:09
In the UAE, there are 200 nationalities living side by side. The indigenous population is about 1.1 million
39:18
and they've got about 11 million immigrants. But one, they all contribute
39:25
There's no immigrant claiming from the state. They all are net contributors to the state
39:31
massively net contributors to the state right two they live side by side right no one um goes out
39:39
and waves flags of hamas or hezbollah or um any other um malign movement uh from anywhere else in
39:50
the world um and they understand what the rules of the land are right what the laws of the land are
39:56
and I think we've just slightly lost the plot. Well, has multiculturalism failed in the UK
40:03
Of course, in my view, if you look at what's happening, when you've got a school teacher still in hiding today
40:13
because he wanted to show his kids images that were incompatible with a particular religion in his community
40:24
I think that Aston Villa Football Club and West Midland Police choosing a spurious excuse to hang their ban of Maccabre Tel Aviv supporters actually coming and supporting their team in our country
40:42
All this stuff sends the message to communities, to the silent majority that your government doesn't really care about you
40:53
Right. Because it's been hijacked by very loud, sometimes violent minorities who mean us harm. Right. Genuinely, my view is, if you're here, you integrate, you assimilate, you celebrate this great country that's taking you in. And if you don't, you've got no place here
41:20
That is I think a founding principle of good governments We are rapidly running out of time Nadim and I haven been able to speak to you on the economy particularly in the way that I would have liked
41:32
We'll have to get you back on for that. But the one thing I did want to touch on when it came to the economy
41:37
is the unsustainable benefits culture in this country. And every time I'm on GB News now
41:44
there is a different ridiculous story about, you know, particular groups of people getting benefits when they really shouldn't
41:50
that, you know, now I believe that the total number of, the amount that is paid out in benefits
41:58
is higher than the amount that is taken in by income tax. Obviously, that's not the total tax take
42:02
but that is just as a symbol, a very, very powerful and worrying symbol of where this country is at
42:07
Now, you know, again, better than most that this needs to be reformed
42:11
At the same time, the political reality is that if you do go about that, inevitably people lose money or people lose free money
42:18
um how do you go about reforming the benefits culture in this country i think by just being
42:23
honest and transparent about it if you look at what nigel's been saying on this um
42:28
one back to first principles we opened this podcast by saying that we're not running a
42:36
surplus we're running a deficit which means we're borrowing money right and when you're borrowing
42:41
money you're almost you know doubly responsible for how you spend it right because money that
42:47
you don't have and therefore you've got to be really careful about your expenditure um and what
42:53
nigel has been saying is look um you know you can't stay off work just because you say you've
43:00
got anxiety yeah that will help you we'll support you but there's no way you're going to get signed
43:05
off under a reformed government and claim for anxiety right and there's of course mental health
43:12
is incredibly important, right? But don't abuse the system, number one. Number two, right, Zia Yusuf has done a lot of numbers on this
43:23
If you look at those who came under that massive immigration spike
43:28
under the Conservative government, right, who will automatically get leave to remain in this country
43:37
which means they can start claiming benefits. That is money that should not be going to people, right
43:49
who are coming here if they're not contributing. And therefore, all these things added up
43:56
run into tens of billions of pounds. Take that money, divert it towards tax cuts
44:06
to get the country working. that, you know, these things are not rocket science, right
44:14
Follow the evidence. And your first principle is we're borrowing money. Therefore, we're going to be really responsible
44:19
about how we spend it. Anyone who's not a net contributor to this country
44:24
forget it, right? You're not claiming, and by the way, you're not even coming here, right
44:29
I'm sorry, but that's how the world's going to work going forward
44:33
Why? Because, you know, we're entering a period of incredible technological shift and change, and we need to be investing in that
44:44
And the only way you can invest in that is if you are running a sound economy, right, that allows you then the headroom to deliver tax cards
44:55
to make it the most attractive place to invest, to get entrepreneurs back, to get millions and billions back in this country, not living in Milan
45:03
or elsewhere and we win it's a great place to be you and I both know that
45:11
your name's Ahawi, thank you for coming on the show thank you for having me
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