Grooming gangs: Keir Starmer attacked in BRUTAL takedown - 'Pull your finger out and get on with inquiry!'
Oct 24, 2025
Sit back, pour yourself a drink and join GB News Political Editor Christopher Hope at his regular table where he will discuss the latest insider political intrigue and gossip with everyone from popstars to politicians.
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0:00
Coming up on Chopper's Political Podcast
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After the coronation, I got hundreds, or actually thousands of letters from people
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I got more letters than I got votes at any election. Welcome back to Chopper's Political Podcast
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why bring you the best guest gossip, news and stories from our studios of GB News at the heart of Westminster
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The former leader of the House of Commons, Penny Mordor, is joining me later
0:33
She's got a new book out coming to shops called Pomp and Circumstance
0:37
But first, the grooming gang scandal is back in the spotlight with three victims quitting the advisory liaison panel
0:45
advising the setting up of this inquiry. And one of the two candidates to be chair of the inquiry also withdrawing their name
0:53
So where are we now? Later, I'll be speaking to Natalie Fleet, Labour MP for Bolsover, about the grooming gang scandal
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And joined now by the Conservative MP for Keithley and Ilkley, Robbie Moore
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who's been ytically campaigning for the grooming gang scandal to ensure it doesn't disappear from the limelight
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Robbie Moore, welcome to Chopper's political podcast. What is going on with this inquiry
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Well, who knows? And that is the incredibly frustrating thing to say
1:20
because if you turn back the clock, it was January of this year
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when the Home Secretary said that there would be five local inquiries and they never came to existence at all
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We then heard from Baroness Casey giving us a report back just before the summer recess
1:38
A scoping exercise, looking across the piece, looking at probably some of the evidence that GB Nees has gathered
1:42
Yeah, with a very strong recommendation, very clear to this government that there must be a national inquiry
1:49
specifically looking at group-based child sexual exploitation, gang-related groups. And that's important. We'll come back to that
1:54
Absolutely important. But that announcement was made by the Home Secretary back in June
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We are now nearly at the end of October. We have no further announcements being made
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We don't know who the independent chair is. We don't know what the terms of reference are. We don't know how much funding is going to be allocated to this
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And we don't know which areas are going to... So the structure is going to be local inquiries, maybe five or more
2:18
with an overarching national inquiry shared by an individual. That was the idea
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That was the idea announced by the Home Secretary on the back of the Casey recommendation
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in June this year. But we still don't know the terms of reference
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to how much funding, which local areas will form part of that umbrella structure
2:36
that sits below the national inquiry. The Viznap process is a panel of victims
2:42
rightly so, being put at the heart of the process. But so far, as things stand
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we're recording this, of course, late on Tuesday this week, three victims have withdrawn from that process
2:52
Absolutely right. One of them is Fiona Goddard, who's from Bradford. And I know Fiona
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You know her. I know she's all very well. She lives just outside the constituency
3:02
but she... You know her. I know her very well, and I've built a relationship up with Fiona
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since she first contacted me back in 2020. So why are the people quitting the process
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who this inquiry is meant to be... In fact, the most important people involved in this inquiry
3:17
Are these people who are quitting it? Why? Because they've lost faith, right
3:21
They've lost faith that they were given a voice to be part of an inquiry
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to have some level of influence on how that inquiry would be structured going forward
3:31
the terms of reference that it would form part, who the independent chair would be
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And literally, we've now got to a point where three victims, as at today
3:41
have pulled themselves off being part of that panel because they have lost faith, right
3:46
We've also heard one of the potential candidates to be part of the consideration by the Home Office to be the independent chair, drop out of the race against her
3:55
She's a social worker called Annie Hudson, because I think the victims seem to think that it's not Annie Hudson's fault, but the idea that the social workers as a group fail the victims
4:06
So why should someone with a social work background be chairing it? That seems to be the concern
4:10
Seems to absolutely be the concern. But it feeds this narrative of lack of faith and lack and that disenfranchisement factor between those victims and survivors losing faith in again the state again, who should be there to provide a direction so that so that clarity can come out throughout the inquiry taking place
4:31
This is not a good scenario to be in, I have to say. It's how they're being treated, it seems, how they're being talked about or talked to
4:38
Some of the reading, some of the letters from the victims, they seem concerned about how they're being treated by maybe the Home Office, by officials, by the system, by something
4:46
No, I've been absolutely clear that victims and survivors must be at the heart of this
4:52
Right. And it seemed to be that that was the indication that the government were giving as part of having a victim led panel of which Fiona and Ellie
5:02
who have dropped out this week were part of. They have then pulled back because they have had concerns
5:08
around the narrative that was being formed as part of the terms of reference, the scope
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What does that mean, narrative? The narrative of how the terms of reference
5:19
in terms of the level of scope that would be associated with it, i.e. that it was veering off being specifically focused
5:25
on gang-related child sexual activities. Why does that matter? Why does that matter particularly
5:30
Because we've had the ICSA report, which came out in 22. That was the Independent Enquiry
5:35
into Child Sexuality Explosion. Yes, which was a very good piece of work that had been done by Alexis J
5:39
It was far wide ranging. It came out with a decent number
5:43
of good recommendations that should have been implemented. 20 or so? On day one
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20 recommendations. Three have been implemented apparently. Well, is it three? I don't think any actually have
5:54
been properly implemented as at today. The government's narrative is three. But if you speak to individuals
5:59
like David Greenwood who form part of the ICSA task force, they are saying, well, actually, the narrative is free
6:06
but they haven't actually yet been implemented. This was a report that came out in 2022
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and I've been absolutely critical of the previous Conservative administrations for not putting in those 20 recommendations
6:18
following the 2022 report coming out, but yet we're in well over a year to this Labour government
6:25
and we are still hearing that zero recommendations have been put in place
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When we get to March, this Labour government will have had just as much time to put in place all of those 20 recommendations as the previous Conservative government did before the general election came about
6:43
Well, we'll judge them in March on that most definitely. Why does scope matter
6:47
So it's being widened away from predominantly Asian men doing the abusing of young white girls, which is where the heart of the story is
6:56
Scope matters because the ICSA report looked at all child sexual abuse quite rightly
7:02
It didn't specifically focus on gang-related child sexual exploitation. The rape gangs that we've seen haunt many constituents like mine in Keefe and across the..
7:11
There was two towns, didn't there, from memory, I think? So the ICSA report did not focus on any northern-based towns
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and did not take any specific evidence associated with forming conclusions around gang child sexual exploitation which is why Baroness Casey came out very strongly in June earlier this year with a recommendation that there must be a national inquiry specifically focused very tightly on group
7:38
based child sexual exploitation. By predominantly Asian men, she said in her report. Correct
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And that's where the focus must remain. Baroness Casey was very clear when those recommendations
7:50
So why is it being widened against a parent, which is a casey? So, well, the reality of it is that those conversations are taking place now, right
8:00
There is concern this week that it is being widened, right, by three victims that have pulled out
8:09
And they know what's going on. They're inside the tent. They are absolutely. And they are that concerned that they don't now longer want to be part of the panel and have part of the process
8:17
At a local level, I've also had concerns about advocacy coming in to the Home Office from local leaders that represent the Bradford district in the West Yorkshire region, advocating that it is now no longer tightly focused on areas that would be likes of Bradford or Keefley, but much bigger geographical areas like West Yorkshire
8:44
That goes against the tight focus that Baroness Casey was advocating for
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She wants to have individual inquiries looking at individual towns and conurbations
8:53
with an overarching picture, not looking at West Yorkshire as a whole, in your case, for example
8:57
The population of West Yorkshire is over 2 million people. Right. When the review looked at Rotherham, which Professor Alexis Jay looked at
9:06
the population of Rotherham was about 200,000 people. Yeah. The point being here, it has to be tightly focused
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if it's delivered true outcomes within the time that's been set by..
9:16
The Home Office say this. They say the abuse of children by grooming gangs is one of the most horrific crimes imaginable
9:22
Any suggestion that this inquiry is being watered down is completely wrong
9:27
We are committed to delivering a robust, thorough inquiry that will get to the truth and provide the answers
9:32
that survivors have so long campaigned for. So Labour, the PM downwards, do talk a big game on this
9:40
They want to get to the heart of it. what is going wrong why can't this happen okay well they're giving very warm words but look we
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are in october here why uh because my view is they have not got to grips on this issue at all
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we had a statement given by the safeguarding minister jess phillips in the house of commons
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today it was very clear um that there is um what progress has been made is being pulled apart
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by worry and concern by victims that were on the panel around the terms of reference being widened
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and the scope has been widened beyond the recommendation of Baroness Casey. Is it local council leaders
10:15
So there's a headline in one of the newspapers that Labour is sabotaging the agreement inquiry
10:18
That is denied, of course, by No. 10 Downing Street. But is it Labour politicians, or is it politicians locally of whatever stripe
10:26
not wanting to have the scrutiny of an inquiry? Well, the view that I take is politicians of all political colours have failed those victims and survivors for far too much
10:35
That is definitely true. And that absolutely has been the case. As a matter of fact, if you are a victim or a survivor in my constituency, you have a Labour-run Bradford Council
10:48
You have a Labour West Yorkshire mayor and deputy mayor for policing. We now have a Labour government
10:54
All three levels of that governance have previously said we do not want a national or local inquiry
11:04
I have been advocating for this since 2019 and I've been told this is not a local issue, this is a national issue
11:11
Then at a national level you got told by the Home Secretary, well this is a local issue. Therefore nothing ever been able to trigger
11:16
We literally had the leader of Bradford Council say that it would be too expensive, we wouldn't learn nothing new
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Before Baroness Casey came out in June we had the West Yorkshire Mayor and the Deputy Mayor for Policing
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literally say that we do not need that inquiry to be focused on Bradford Council
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Since then, they are now advocating that if an independent chair deems it reasonable for West Yorkshire to be part of that inquiry, then they will participate
11:48
On a West Yorkshire level, not a Bradford level. That's your concern about that
11:51
My worry is that geographically it will be focused too largely for the levels of learning and outcome that must come from this, the levels of convictions that must take place, the level of trust that must be reinstalled back in that process, where there's been failings of the local authorities, national government or those with safeguarding responsibilities
12:11
It's got to be at a local authority based level and truly independent, not the narrative that Jess Phillips put in a letter to the Home Affairs Select Committee just yesterday that said that the Home Office had been in discussions with Oldham Council about making sure the outcomes were right for Oldham
12:31
That is wrong because it should not be focused on what the local authority wants
12:36
It should, particularly when they're being investigated. This is where I fear the level of independence within the system is now gone
12:45
Does Labour want to deal with this? I say Labour, they're in power. The Labour government want to deal with this
12:51
They want to sort it out once and for all the victims. I hope they do, because it has to happen
12:57
And governments of all levels and all political colours have failed far too long
13:01
But what we are seeing from this government is them dragging their feet
13:05
We are now well into a year of this new government. We've had five local inquiries have promised at the beginning of this year
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We're nearly at the end of October. We now know nothing new on that. And then we've had the national inquiry announcement
13:21
We now, still, where we are here, no further information on that
13:27
Action is not following the words that they're giving, and that's really deeply disappointing
13:32
Who should chair the inquiry? because now we've got one candidate, I think with a policing background
13:38
the social worker background person has gone. Should it be from somewhere overseas
13:42
I mean, number 10, sort of sources number 10 tell me that there were three candidates before Baroness Jay stepped up
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So it has been a difficult inquiry in the past to find people to be in charge of it
13:54
But is everybody, the wrong word is tainted, but is everybody conflicted who could do this
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in a sense, whether it be where they're from or being their party they're part of or the backgrounds
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It should be someone from overseas, maybe. Well, I would ask the question that it's got to look at what the outcomes are that you're wanting to achieve
14:16
In my view, convictions must take place. Those organisations or individuals that have been part of the cover-up previously have got to be held to account
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and convictions must follow if deemed necessary. Trust has got to be reinstalled back in the system
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And that will only follow with proper convictions taking place. None of these weak sentences that we've seen or dual nationals running off to Pakistan and then it being an open secret where they're living and escaping justice
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convictions have to follow of organizations or individuals so therefore i do think it is right
14:50
to say well should it be a judge that is the right person um where hopefully trust and faith is installed in those individuals to be truly independent to be willing to go anywhere where the evidence leads that
15:05
So should we be a judge? Absolutely. A Commonwealth judge with a similar kind of legal background to the UK, possibly
15:13
Absolutely be the type of an individual that is worthy of consideration for this appointment
15:20
You mentioned convictions there. Just from what you know in Bradford, how many convictions are we looking at, do you think
15:27
Well, I've always said, and this is based on interactions with individuals like Fiona Goddard or working with David Greenwood
15:33
who has represented many of those victims and survivors from Rotherham and indeed across the Bradford District
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that the scale of the issue across the Bradford District will dwarf that of Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, Oldham, where there's been inquiries previously
15:46
We have had no inquiry at all that has focused on Keefley and the wider Bradford district
15:52
But yet all of those reports or the vast majority of them reference children, predominantly white young girls that have been trafficked through the Bradford district
16:00
So I predominantly Asian men. And again, if you look at all of the convictions that have taken place across Keefley in the Bradford district, it is mainly being Asian men
16:13
So what's the scale of this? How many convictions will we be looking at if you get what you want, which is justice for these victims
16:20
It will be well into the thousands. Tens of thousands. It will be well into the thousands. It will be huge
16:27
Many thousands. It will be many, many thousands. We produced a report that went into the Home Office that has been delivered to Jess Phillips, which is advocating that it will be well into the thousands of individuals
16:38
Number 10 tells us there is no crisis over this. They want to get to the bottom of what they call one of the greatest scandals in our country's history. They say they're determined to get justice for the victims. Do you believe them? Do you believe Keir Starmer when he says he wants to get to the bottom of this? You don't believe Keir Starmer
16:57
I really worry about the messaging that comes out from the Prime Minister
17:01
He had people like me that has been lucky enough to be a member of Parliament advocating for this issue
17:07
He had victims, survivors constantly coming forward. You had members of the public worried about rape gangs that are taking place in areas like the Bradford District or other areas across the community
17:20
And he used the narrative that all of us were jumping on that far right bandwagon
17:25
In his words. In his words, trying to quash the quite reasonable narrative and levels of concern, levels of fear that were being raised
17:35
And he is the prime minister of the United Kingdom where we should have faith in, hopefully, in what he is wanting to achieve
17:41
That had completely been diminished by the group of which he was trying to associate reasonable people from raising legitimate concerns
17:51
He says that he, of course, was DPP, prosecuted some of the first grooming gangs
17:55
maybe the first grooming gangs case when it was DPP 2008 to 2014, I think, from memory
18:01
So he would say his record shows he is taking it seriously and has done and is doing now his office
18:06
So why on earth are we, in October 2025, them having been in government for well over a year
18:13
and have us not got to the position of even knowing the detail of who is going to be running this independent inquiry
18:20
into the Child Sexual Exploitation National Enquirer. So if Peter Starmer was sitting here, what would you tell him
18:25
To get on with it and to pull his finger out. There are victims and survivors that want to have trust reinstalled back in the system
18:32
They want those convictions to follow and they want those organisations who have been part of the cover-up
18:37
held to account and for them to have convictions put against them
18:41
Why on earth is this Prime Minister dragging his feet on an issue
18:46
which has potentially been the biggest national scandal that this country has ever experienced
18:52
Robbie Moore, Katori MP for Keith and Italy, thank you for joining us today on Chopper's Political Podcast
18:56
Thank you. Thank you. A quick warning that some viewers and listeners
19:04
may find the following interview distressing as it involves a discussion on rape and sexual abuse
19:11
Natalie Fleet, MP for Bolsover, your first time on Chopper's Political Podcast
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It's great to have you here. Thank you for having me. I've long been a listener of Chopper's political podcast
19:21
Yeah, I've got a funny story about it. I'm not. So, I had a nightmare that Lee Anderson, my MP
19:28
you know, I've known him many years. From Ashfield. Yeah, that he was in my ear
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And then I woke up and I realised I hadn't put the sleep timer
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in my earphone, so the podcast was just running. It went to your podcast and I heard Lee, I rewound it
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and Lee Anderson said, now then chopper and i thought that's it it was never a nightmare so yes i have long been a
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listener and it feels very cool to be on the joining you very cool to have you here and
19:55
what you've done is a very cool thing you've been an mp for about 17 months 18 months mp for
20:02
bolsova of course um and you've changed the law now there's that a lot of backbench mps never get
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to do this men never get to make them off in fact you can speak to cabinet ministers who tell me
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They're amazed how little they feel they affect anything. Everything is carried on the same way
20:19
and they can't make even little changes, I think. I mean, if you talk to Theresa May
20:23
her big thing was the Modern Slavery Act, which is a big deal, OK
20:27
But given she was Prime Minister and Home Secretary, it's quite a narrow bit of law there
20:32
That's her big thing. And what have you done? So I used to teach trade union organising courses
20:37
and we knew then that you needed to see an injustice. But seeing an injustice wasn't enough
20:42
because nobody's ever done anything about this. So many people have said, that can't be right, that's not the law
20:48
There's no way that's the law. And then you have to have an organisation that is prepared to fight the injustice
20:54
I think that's the government, led by somebody who used to be director of public prosecutions
20:58
and absolutely got formed for dealing with violence against women and girls. And then somebody..
21:03
Pierre Starmer. Yeah, and then somebody... The missing piece of Jigsaw was having a survivor on our benches
21:08
when we were in government. I mean I didn't I never thought that rape was part of my story
21:14
I never wanted it to be part of my story what you've done here you've amended the Victims and Courts Bill
21:19
and what is the problem and what have you solved with this legislation
21:24
so in this country there's 10 babies born every day as a result of rape
21:29
I have been shouting about that since I became an MP told the Prime Minister
21:34
and it's like you're joking we need to do something about that I'm like we do need to do something about that
21:39
So this isn't something that happens in faraway countries. It's happening here right now
21:43
These women aren't talking about it. They're not telling people because they're scared
21:47
because they're scared of what's going to happen. And one woman told me the reason she wasn't speaking out
21:52
is because the man had threatened her. And he'd said, if you tell a single person
21:57
I will come for you and I will come for that child. It doesn't matter if I get sent to prison
22:02
I will have lifelong access to that child. I will be able to make decisions about where they go to school
22:08
about their health, about what they're named. You will never, ever be rid of me
22:12
They have parental rights, the rapists, over these 10 babies born every day
22:16
Yeah. And how is that the case? So I tell the prime minister, I tell everybody, including the
22:20
queen, which was very cool to be able to talk to her about this. And I just keep telling everybody
22:25
And the first thing they say is that can be true There no way that true It just common sense Take away the rights of rapists and give those rights to survivors
22:37
How has that not happened? Because we've not been talking about rape enough in Parliament. Do you know in the last Parliament
22:42
we spoke about football more often than rape. Nobody is talking about it
22:47
And that was never my plan to come in and talk about it
22:51
But as a campaigner, you come in, you think, right, I'm going to talk about potholes. I'm going to talk about bowls over school
22:55
That's easier. And then I come in and the first thing, it was your lovely colleague, Gloria DiPiero
23:01
She asked me, she asked me if I was excited. She's been a friend for a very long time
23:05
She's never asked me this question before. Nobody's ever asked me. She asked me if I was excited when I had a positive pregnancy test at 15
23:11
And I said, oh my God, of course I wasn't excited. I was absolutely horrified. I thought I'd be married with kids and a lot
23:16
married and a lot older with a stable job and stuff when I had children. I didn't think I'd be 15 and pregnant
23:22
All of my teachers were horrified. that were telling me that Natalie had so much promise and potential
23:27
you've ruined your life and you've ruined your life of your unborn child as well
23:32
Absolutely horrendous. So what is normal in my community, because in Ashfield where I live
23:38
in Bowles over where I now represent their neighbouring constituencies, we had, in the year 2000 when my daughter was born
23:45
the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe. The government saw us and my God, they were looking after us
23:50
and made sure that they stopped that happening with the teenage pregnancy strategy. They made sure that we got sure starts and that I could still go on to university
23:59
All of that was amazing. But what nobody was asking, the government, healthcare professionals, teachers
24:04
nobody was asking, Natalie, what happened to you? Were you okay? There were people in the street that were shouting, oh my God, you're a slag
24:11
And, you know, just so many people told me that I'd wrote mine and her life off
24:17
But nobody was asking the question because everybody pretty much believed it was my fault. So you were raped at 15
24:23
and that led for pregnancy. So it was statutory rape. So I was absolutely consenting
24:31
I thought I was an adult. I wanted to be, all I wanted was a boyfriend with a car
24:36
I thought I was a grown-up and I absolutely thought that we were having protected sex
24:41
because I'd done sex education. Why wouldn't you have protected sex? That would be ridiculous. When I fell pregnant, I realised, I said to him
24:49
what happened? why why weren't we having why weren't we using condoms i've done sex education in school you
24:55
should be using condoms and he says i thought you're on the pill and i'm like well i never
24:59
told you that you never asked me that so looking back there's two reasons that it would be right
25:03
that we now recognize one i was a child children having children are something that when i go to
25:09
schools i don't see anymore because last labor government stopped it thank god then the second
25:14
part is that we now we didn't talk about it then but we now see that when somebody believes that
25:20
they're having protected sex and it turns out they're not then that's that's also rape so I feel
25:28
that I'm I've got a huge amount of privilege because of the way that I was raped so I've got
25:32
my birth certificate my daughter's birth certificate and a DNA test I'm still too scared to go to the
25:37
police the police have been lovely and they've been in touch I didn't do it I don't want to put
25:42
myself through it so instead I'm thinking where does my responsibility lie because I have massive
25:46
responsibility on this 10,000 women in Bolsover have been raped 172 women MPs have been raped
25:56
this is if we take national statistics and apply them to the women I went to see the lionesses
26:00
and I'm sat looking at the team sheet working out that seven of them have been raped they're not
26:06
talking about it if there was any woman that's the probability yes so you just take the chances
26:12
because nobody's talking about it. Nobody's reporting about it. You're just so rogue
26:18
There's no faith in the system anyway. No. So the hurdles are nobody is going to believe me
26:24
Nobody. We're talking about my family, my friends. Nobody's going to believe me
26:29
Now, the more I've spoken out and the more support I've got, I think I was wrong on that
26:34
And I would ask women to tell their family and friends because they do believe you
26:38
Then you think the police aren't going to believe you. We're making sure that we've got specialist officers in 999 control rooms
26:44
and that you're going to have somebody that's going to support the victims right the way through this process
26:50
We're now making sure that where there's rape, where there's conviction of rape
26:56
parental responsibility will automatically be removed. Even better still, if there isn't a conviction, because they are so hard to get
27:03
if there isn't a conviction, but the court thinks that this may have been conceived by rape
27:08
they make a referral to the local authority the local authority then remove parental responsibility
27:13
in cooperation with the mother so we're saying we see you we know how tough this is
27:18
we know that this is really traumatic am I just going to do this for you
27:22
we don't want you to be re-traumatised it's not a victim to do that it happens anyway
27:26
it takes them out of the conversation the less we ask of victims the better
27:30
because my god I mean what one woman told me is she couldn't remember the rape
27:35
she woke up and the man was inside her. She couldn't remember anything else that happened
27:42
It clearly happened. And then she fell pregnant. And then the nine months of the rape growing inside her
27:49
was the worst part. People congratulating her on a pregnancy that she wished wasn't there
27:58
She told me about the time she tried to take her life so that she could remove the problem of her and the baby
28:02
she then told me about the trauma of giving birth and how much she struggles every birthday
28:10
So she has to pretend that she's having an amazing birthday party with her child
28:15
She can't let a child know how she feels. But every birthday is really, really, really tough
28:21
When you describe the rape growing aside her. And she couldn't get rid of it. She told me she tried
28:25
She just couldn't. Basically, by the time she... So she tried to take her own life during the pregnancy
28:30
and it was the psychiatric team that said this is rape that's why you keep trying to take your life
28:38
this is why we're involved this is what's happened to you she said that she didn't believe him by the
28:42
time she did believe him it was too late to have a have a termination gosh well natalie i mean and
28:50
so you've you've got this amendment through when does the victims and courts bill become law so it's
28:55
Monday the 27th of October 2025. Wow. If you are around and you would like to have a drink
29:04
then I would love that. I don't drink but my God, we can toast it with orange juice if we have to
29:12
Anybody that wants to celebrate, if anybody could just think on that day, my God, it's a very big deal
29:18
That's just Monday. Yeah, it is. I'm very, very, very excited. It's deeply moving talking to you now
29:22
I've never talked to a backbench MP like it. You've absolutely, you've seen the problem and you've dealt with it
29:30
and you've gone to the right people and you've made a real mark. So there are, I never thought I could be an MP
29:37
I met your presenter, Gloria Di Piero, in 2010. She went, oh my God, you're normal
29:42
I thought, I feel like she's telling me that as a compliment, but I've never been called normal as a compliment
29:47
No, she's made it the last one. From then, she said, you've got to be an MP, you've got to be an MP
29:51
and the amount of arguments I've had with her and said, Gloria, people like me don't become MPs
29:57
I am a normal person... From my community, I met my husband at school
30:02
We've never moved from where we lived. Like, we don't enter Parliament
30:07
We don't even go to London very often, never mind represent people
30:12
And then there was Jess Phillips. I said, I can't be an MP. She's like, you've got to be an MP
30:16
And then so many other people. I mean, you look at Angela Rayner in Parliament
30:20
They made me believe that I could do it. But what happens is, when you get normal people in Parliament
30:25
is you take the problems of your constituency that haven't ever touched London
30:29
or Westminster and you make them into issues that you can do something about
30:33
in government. So when people talk about the privilege of being an MP, that is it
30:38
That's the privilege. And maybe our role, part of our role at GB News is finding those stories
30:43
from people who can't tell them and get an audience for them and present them to a wider audience
30:48
slightly in a different way. What I love, the reason I love GB News is because people in my constituency
30:52
watch you, they care about what you have to say and that, yes
30:57
that is why you need to be getting out. You can come to us over any time and we'll have a chat to constituents together
31:04
I've got to ask you about what's going on in politics at the moment also with the grooming
31:08
gangs inquiry. You had this very rather moving exchange with the safeguarding minister Jess
31:14
Phillips in the House of Commons. Let's hear what was said. Today the government announced that it
31:18
will take parental responsibility away where a child is born of rape. This will protect grooming
31:27
victims. Children in this country will no longer be the only proceed of crime that criminals
31:33
can have lifelong access to. Does the Minister agree with me that survivors have been failed
31:41
for too long by a government that did not prioritise giving them justice, a party led
31:49
by a leader of the opposition that did not mention grooming when she had the power to
31:54
do something about it. Instead, survivors have had to wait for victims and activists
32:02
to be on these benches and the most fierce of advocates to be at the dispatch box
32:08
The Honourable Lady mischaracterises me as the fiercest of advocates because she, as
32:18
as a grooming victim herself with a child born of rape is the fiercest, bravest. I could
32:28
cry, I feel so proud that what this Government did was seek to get her elected. I have been
32:37
campaigning for the thing that she has fought for, with grooming gang victims, for nearly
32:44
I met with ministers of the then government and nothing was done
32:50
It is because she, well, the exact thing that the member for Bolsover has campaigned for was asked for repeatedly and nothing was done
33:02
It is because of her and this government that today I am incredibly proud of her and to say that will change
33:10
That was a course. I mean, Jess Phillips, she worked with victims of domestic abuse in Birmingham, I think. She knows about victims. What is going wrong here? Why are four victims leaving a viziness inquiry? You're a victim, you know how victims feel. Is there a victim's blaming issue going on here by the wider government
33:35
I'm not blaming Jess Phillips, but it may be that her, the way she's communicating isn't cutting through or doing the right, sounding the right things for these victims
33:42
So I see very, very clearly what's happening here and I feel very strongly about it
33:47
And I can understand both sides. I wish they would just come together and talk it through
33:53
Jess has reached out to the survivors and I think that getting them in a room together would be really important
33:58
So how I see it is we have got a safeguarding minister who's been campaigning on laws like mine for years, who has made sure that we've got people like me in Parliament
34:08
She cares. She cares deeply. She will not let there be a stitch up. She will make sure there's a proper inquiry with a proper chair
34:15
She will never, ever let us have cheap political fixes. So get a chair in quickly. She wants it to be the right chair
34:23
She wants it to be the person that's going to actually do the work. She wants victims to be listened to
34:28
she's so determined for it not to be a cover-up or a stitch-up
34:32
that she's made sure that she isn't having anything to do with it and this is all an independent external charity
34:38
That is who she is. She is the person. I don't know why that's not cutting through
34:43
Because I'll tell you why. The second part. We don't trust people
34:49
If people come and knock on my door, I don't answer. My husband does
34:54
Victims, you mean? Yeah. I think that if you've gotten to a position where you're groomed in the first place, things have probably been quite tricky
35:03
I've got a history of homelessness and domestic violence, things that I don't have to talk about because other people do, thank God
35:08
I only talk about rape because nobody else is doing. Life has been quite tough and you've always, I've been taught not to trust the police, not to trust people
35:20
I can remember my next door neighbour said to me, I'm not going to Shorestar, it's full of social workers that want to take my kids off me
35:25
So they have been let down for so long. And then this is what really, really gets to me
35:31
The last government, Kemi Badenoch was Women and Equalities Minister. She never mentioned grooming
35:36
Now it's advantageous to her. She's using victims to have a go at the government
35:42
When she had the power to help us, she didn't. She left us
35:46
She was another one of the long list of people that let us down. Now she's using us again
35:51
So I see these victims that don't trust government, police, the establishment, and we are part of that
35:58
So I'd like them, I know that Jess has reached out to them, I'd like them to get to a place where they can trust Jess
36:04
and see that she doing the right things for the right reasons because she won let there be a cover And I would like us to I like them to have faith in an independent inquiry
36:15
Yeah, meet her. Yeah, I think that that would be... I think, I strongly, genuinely believe
36:22
that the government is doing the right thing in making sure proper independent inquiry
36:26
It's her background and your background. Both of your backgrounds would be ideal
36:30
for liaising with these victims, between the state and the victims' groups
36:35
because of her background, but this isn't working at the moment. So you had, I hope that we've had a nice conversation
36:41
and I hope that some of your listeners will believe that I come from a really authentic place
36:46
I would like to be in my constituency. I would like to not be talking about any of these things
36:50
but I know it's the right thing to do. One victim, one survivor, reached out to me
36:55
and said I should be ashamed of being part of the government
37:00
This was a long time ago. and there are victims that believe that you are part of the problem
37:08
if you have anything to do with any of the services that let them down so badly
37:13
I believe, I strongly, strongly, strongly believe that this is how you get change
37:17
This is how we get the law. This is how we stop rapists having access to kids
37:23
This is how we make sure that victims are protected going forward. I believe that government is a solution
37:28
I also don't judge victims that see us part of the problem
37:32
And so you look at the two chairs who have been proposed. One's backed away now, the social worker candidate
37:37
and there's another one who's a police officer. How do you find the right chair who's trusted
37:43
I mean, is it a foreign judge, which is what some are saying? Someone like Baroness Casey, Louise Casey
37:50
she's kind of trusted, isn't she? Yeah, she's really... How does she earn that trust? And who can be someone like Baroness Casey
37:57
When we had the last inquiry, the jury report, It took us three chairs and two years to get to Alexis J
38:03
So what we're doing is saying we're going to find the right chair from the off
38:07
We're not going to wait to get the right chair. We're going to take time finding a chair
38:11
Finding a chair that people trust is difficult. Yes, we'd love to clone Baroness Casey, but, you know, she's got a lot on her hands
38:19
We've now got a government that's listening to everything she said and making sure that we meet those recommendations
38:24
What Jess was absolutely clear on yesterday, she isn't involved in the process of picking the chair
38:29
It's her job to make sure that the government has overview of the process so that the chair is trusted, but are completely separate from the process
38:37
The government aren't choosing the chair. I think that's the right thing. And those victims, the grooming gang's victims, will get justice somehow
38:45
We've heard from Shabala Mahmood overnight telling GB News that will happen. You're confident it will happen
38:50
So I am absolutely, I just, I hate that it's taken so long. I hate all of us have had to go through
38:58
I mean, I'm talking about the 25 years it's taken. 25 years ago, we were called slag sluts, slappers that had brought this on ourselves
39:07
We were seen as the problem. It's taken 25 years for us to be told that I'm sorry this happened to you and we will support you
39:15
But thank God we are being. And I see Shibana and I'm like, she is a kick-ass kind of woman that is going to make sure that we all get justice
39:23
I am really proud to have her as our Home Secretary. Well, very good words this week
39:29
Let's hope it can deliver the victims. It has to and it will
39:33
And I'm there on the back benches making sure we do. You will be. Listen, Natalie, I'll be raising a glass to you on Monday for your campaigning work
39:40
It's been an absolute pleasure. A real pleasure to have you on Chopper's Computer Podcast. Right, now for a change of pace
39:51
Joining me now is the former leader of the House of Commons, Dame Penny Mordorne
39:55
who has a new book out called Pomp and Circumstance, Why Britain's Traditions Matter
40:01
Well, we can all agree with that. Penny, welcome to Chopper's political podcast
40:04
Thank you for having me. Why does, then, tradition matter? Some would say, what's the point in the 21st century
40:11
Well, the motivation for writing this was really my experience as the late Queen's last and the King's first Lord President
40:18
and that huge change for us moving to a new monarch was done against the backdrop of immense
40:25
political turmoil it was the start of the Lizard Trust administration and I saw how the incredible
40:30
ceremonies and rituals of the accession council all that followed right through to the coronation
40:36
held the country together it gave us a sense of ourselves clothed us in our rightful mind
40:43
and really strengthened us as a nation. So I started looking into what else these incredible rituals do
40:51
They hold our uncodified constitution together. And in communities, people are feeling the need to revive them and bring them back
41:00
And I think at a time when we want transformational politics and we look at people who've been successful in doing that
41:07
it's because their radical programme has been rooted in the familiar, the traditional things like our faith and our history
41:14
So I think this is a superpower, Chris, that I think will enable our country to do well
41:19
I want to take it for granted, this idea of this, the important, why we do problems and circumstances so well
41:25
and why America can't do it, for example, as I've seen recently with some of their parades
41:29
You were Lord President of the Privy Council and that was meant that you handled the Accession Council
41:35
wasn't it, when all the Privy Councillors or those invited gathered to acclaim the new king
41:42
And you carried, of course, the famous sword, didn't you, with very strong arms around the Abbey on the day of the coronation
41:48
Yes, big spectacles that people remember. But there was a purpose to all of that
41:56
And it moved people. I mean, after the coronation, I got hundreds
42:01
or actually thousands of letters from people. I got more letters than I got votes at any election
42:06
and also some beautiful drawings done by children of me in my dress with the sword
42:11
And I became a sort of lightning rod for everything that they were feeling about their country
42:16
And it was really losing But you right we not like the US The US is going through institution bashing the president writing all these executive orders Congress is scratching its head It a young country The amazing thing about us is that our rulebook has been forged over 1000 years and stress tested to destruction That is an incredible thing It gives us amazing flexibility and adaptability It creates reliability
42:45
It should do. See, the politics of that is it's not because the ETHR is stopping, for example, courts or politicians
42:52
I know, but those things are, given the millennia, are fairly modern things
42:57
I mean, the Supreme Court was only brought in a short while ago
43:02
And guess what? It's not working as we, you know, we collectively wanted it to
43:08
So we're going to sort it out. I mean, the absolute testimony of this is Brexit
43:12
it. We got through that because of all these incredible institutions and the relationship
43:18
between them. It is a superpower. And I think that when we look at the world as it is
43:24
and the public is crying out for a really radical programme from their politicians
43:31
we ought to be asking ourselves how we can do this really well. And I think the key to it is
43:37
to really link it back to what we've done well before, and those that have been successful in
43:42
doing transformational change. It is amazing, isn't it, that this country voted to leave the
43:46
European Union. People voted and no major party was campaigning for that. It was the will of the
43:53
people imposed on the Tories who were in power and they then delivered it. I mean, that is a..
43:59
Other countries have reversed those votes. Absolutely. And I don't think we're going to
44:04
reverse our vote. I mean, the amazing thing about Brexit, and I'm one of those rare Brexiteers that
44:10
actually campaigned and voted for it. But I've always given credit to the real heroes of Brexit
44:17
It wasn't people like me that campaigned and voted for it. It was people that voted remain
44:21
and accepted the result. That's the strength. That's true patriotic. That is. That is. And I mean, that is what makes us a remarkable nation. And I just think at a time
44:34
when everyone is quite negative. People are draping flags around lampposts because they're desperate to feel proud of their nation
44:42
Is that why? So why are they doing that? Some would say that's, well, critics say
44:47
and I don't agree with this, that's a far-right thing. That's something to do with anti-immigrant feeling
44:52
Or is it people want to be proud of where they're from and feel that's under threat
44:56
I think it is the latter. I think people want their nation to be really capable
45:01
They want their government, whatever political hue, to be effective and knock it out the park and make them proud
45:08
And that pride is really important. It's not a trivial thing. In the book, we talk about why it's so essential
45:16
to the country doing well in the future. It's about being confident about your abilities
45:21
We quote Richard Rorty, who said that national pride is to countries what self-belief is to individuals
45:27
It's a necessary condition for self-improvement. And the driving force in politics at the moment
45:33
is people don't feel that Westminster and Whitehall are capable. The people of this country are capable
45:40
You've got amazing things going on all the time. They want the people that are supposed to be leading the charge with them
45:45
to be as effective as they are. It seems so impotent. I mean, I've just been..
45:50
The past four days, I mean, the PM is angry on Friday that a football team called Maccabee Tel Aviv can't play in Birmingham
45:58
because they can't go to the safety of the fans. He steps in
46:02
He orders three academy ministers to do something about it, the Home Secretary, the Culture Secretary, the local government secretary
46:09
Nothing happens. And now it's now it's the Tuesday. The club itself said we won't take off our location
46:17
I just think people look at this. I'm not really blaming Labour. I think it'd be frankly the same with the Tories
46:22
But they think can't anyone do anything anymore and just step up and just boss around the system to deliver what was obvious solution
46:29
Well, the public are looking at government and there's something along every hour, which illustrates that point. But also, I think people are feeling that their agency is being stripped away as well. I mean, there's anyone that has ever tried to fill in a pothole themselves. Well, no
46:43
Yeah, told off. Exactly. We've got to get back to people recognising that they need to take responsibility for things and reward people that take responsibility, whether it's taking the responsibility for creating jobs and wealth for the country, whether it's about taking care of your community or sorting that pothole out on your road so an ambulance can get to the OAP's home at the top of it
47:06
But, you know, we have just got to get back to that. That is what we are as a people
47:12
And that's what they want to see from the government. If we're going to do that transformational politics that people want, we need, if we're going to be successful, to do it in a way that takes the country with us
47:24
And you're giving it a democratic mandate, which is what, you know, we're bringing back a third of our laws from Brussels to Westminster
47:32
That's fantastic. I wonder whether there's unfinished business on Brexit. all of these different quangos that mean the government can't do stuff
47:39
because the quangos in charge. Just get rid of all them and bring them all back under MPs' control
47:45
There's loads we can do. Is that the unfinished or unfinished business of Brexit? There's so much we can do
47:49
And actually the opportunities that were there were so vast. Almost too much
47:54
It's not a criticism that we haven't got everything done all in one go, but there's still so much to do on trade
48:00
I mean, as you will remember, in lieu of a federal deal with the US, I went state by state around the US doing these mini deals at state level because that is where all the regulation sits
48:10
And that was really meaningful things, things like mutual recognition of qualifications
48:15
So it easier for an accountant in Edinburgh or Bradford or wherever to work on a project in a US state than it is for an accountant in the state next door These are real tangible meaningful things So much we could do with the Commonwealth I mean there loads that we could do Yeah I mean I vividly remember being with you I think were you on the last day on the
48:39
bus, on the battle bus, on vote leave at Bournemouth? Yes. I was with you on the bus and I did
48:45
a tweet saying, if Brits vote tomorrow to leave the European Union, it's the biggest
48:49
peasants' revolt since Wat Tyler that did all that work. I mean, I think it really
48:53
was a moment of the ordinary British person saying to it to the leaders do it differently and we're still waiting for the answer
49:01
and I think that collectively the British people have a very clear sense of themselves
49:07
throughout the book we each chapter we quote from the 1944 film This Happy Breed with Frank and
49:16
Ethel Gibbons who are the central characters and we dedicate the book to them because they
49:22
represent Britons. They represent pragmatic, good people, patriotic people who care about
49:30
their country, who care about their community and feel tremendous pride when we step up
49:36
and do the right thing. They ignore for too long. I think they have been
49:41
ignored, but they know how to make their voices and their views heard. What I
49:47
think we need, though, is to really, if we're wanting to serve them well, politicians of every political hue need to look at Westminster and Whitehall in
49:57
particular and answer the question why things don't work, how to fix things. And I think that
50:05
my experiences in that particular 18 months working with the king and seeing actually the mechanics of
50:13
how everything works and holds together has given me some insight to how to do that
50:17
Just on that, and just while you mention the royal family, this is a political podcast and we are talking a lot about Prince Andrew living in Royal Lodge on a peppercorn rent, allowed to do so by the Crown Estate
50:29
What should happen here? You know the king pretty well, but most politicians probably, should he act more firmly against his brother
50:36
Look, I think the royal family to everyone in this country means service and duty
50:44
they're not there for the for the baubles and the glamour they're there to serve us and having met
50:53
the king and his late mother that is what they embody and that's why people feel so let down over
51:00
what has happened I think the king is very pragmatic and he understands this and I think
51:06
what he has done is is the right thing Andrew is in a peculiar situation and he will have to make
51:13
some decisions about what he thinks is the right thing to do. But I think the king is taking a very
51:19
pragmatic line. He's right to do what he's done. And I hope that, although I understand the upset
51:28
for reasons I've said, that the king will have the focus back on the important work he's doing
51:34
whether it's in the UK or what's going on at the moment with Rome
51:39
So there's more to do, you think, for Prince Andrew? Maybe he should move out of that property and and withdraw completely from living in living on the taxpayer expense well i i i i'm
51:49
not across the detail of how that is funded the king will have private funds he doesn't uh use
51:55
taxpayers money for everything but i think he'll be acutely aware of the sensitivities around this
52:01
and i think he's been right to move as he has uh and i i wish him well with getting focused back on
52:08
is important work. And your role, you're on the list, aren't you, to be a Conservative candidate in the next election
52:13
Going through that process, yes. Have you got a seat yet? No, I haven't
52:17
It'll take a while. No, if I'm not back, it won't be through lack of trying, Chris
52:24
It's a marvellous privilege to do it. And there's so much more I've got to do. Yeah
52:30
Yeah. So, again, Paul Smith, you lost to Labour's Amanda Martin last July
52:34
Would you take on the same challenge again there? I've got to get selected and it is luck and timing, I'm afraid
52:40
So I don't know where I will end up. But, yeah, I would hope to be back
52:46
And another run for leader? I've covered two of yours. I think two might be enough, Chris
52:52
And, I mean, Kemi, I think, is doing a really good job. I loved her announcements at conference
52:57
I think that's what I mean by transformational politics. Kills it out, Jutting
53:03
Can she follow through on that, though? because of, yes, great conference speech
53:07
but until that point it was a bit lacklustre. We need to see more, I would say
53:12
Oh, and there will be, but believe me, there will be. But she's got to do the hard yards behind it
53:17
Yeah, a lot of work to do there. Thank you. Well, Dame Penny Mordaunt, thank you for joining us today
53:20
on Chopper's Physical Podcast and to my previous guest, Robbie Moore, MP
53:25
I tweet at AirOnX, at Christopher Hope. And what is your Twitter handle, Dame Penny Mordaunt
53:31
It is Penny Mordaunt. Is it? Frustrated? Yes, very straightforward. Let us both know on Twitter what you think of the podcast
53:39
If you enjoyed the show like Dame Penny Mordle and House, please tell your friends. If you really enjoyed it, leave a 5-star rating and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you can find it
53:48
I can realise it's Pomp and Circumstance, Why British Traditions Matter and all the proceeds are going to some amazing veterans charities
53:54
So please support. Here it is. Available at all good bookshops costing how much
53:59
£22. A snip. thanks to the great team of GB News colleagues
54:03
behind the podcast Mick Booker and Geoff Marsh and their busy work
54:07
it be used today in person George McMillan and of course the Queen Bee herself
54:11
Rebecca Nunes but most importantly thank you again for listening if you want more
54:15
Chopper in your life and they do and so does Dame Penny Mordor catch you during the week
54:19
on GB News with our latest political updates and scoops and stories and our best reporting
54:23
on our website which is called GBNews.com but until next time I'm off to be
54:27
full of patriotic fervour Trafalgar Day why not thank you cheerio
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