Chopper's Political Podcast episode 74 - Natalie Fleet - WATCH IN FULL

Coming up on Chopper's Political Podcast

After the coronation, I got hundreds, or actually thousands of letters from people

I got more letters than I got votes at any election. Welcome back to Chopper's Political Podcast

why I bring you the best guest gossip, news and stories from our studios of GB News at the heart of Westminster

The former leader of the House of Commons, Penny Mordorne, is joining me later. She's got a new book out coming to shops called Pomp and Circumstance

But first, the grooming gang scandal is back in the spotlight with three victims quitting the advisory liaison panel

advising the setting up of this inquiry. And one of the two candidates to be chair of the inquiry also withdrawing their name

So where are we now? Later, I'll be speaking to Natalie Fleet, Labour MP for Bonding

also about the grooming gang scandal. And joined now by the Conservative MP for Keithley and Ilkley

Robbie Moore, who's been ytically campaigning for the grooming gang scandal to ensure it doesn't disappear

from the limelight. Robbie Moore, welcome to Chopper's political podcast. What is going on with this inquiry

Well, who knows? And that is the incredibly frustrating thing to say

because if you turn back the clock, it was January of this year

when the Home Secretary said that there would be five local inquiries and they never came to existence at all. We then heard from Baroness

Casey giving us a report back just before the summer recess. A scoping exercise, looking across

the piece, looking at probably some evidence that GB Nees has gathered. Yeah, with a very strong

recommendation, very clear to this government that they must be a national inquiry, specifically

looking at group-based child sexual exploitation, gang-related groups. And that's important, Absolutely important. But that announcement was made by the Home Secretary back in June

We are now nearly at the end of October. We've no further announcements being made

We don't know who the independent chair is. We don't know what the terms of reference are. We don't know how much funding is going to be allocated to this

And we don't know which areas are going to... So the structure is going to be local inquiries, maybe five or more

with an overarching national inquiry chair by an individual. That was the idea

That was the idea announced by the Home Secretary on the back of the Casey recommendation in June this year

But we still don't know the terms of reference, how much funding, which local areas will form part of that umbrella structure that sits below the National Enquiry

The Viznapra process is a panel of victims, rightly so, being put at the heart of the process

But so far, as things stand, we're recording this, of course, late on Tuesday this week, three victims have withdrawn from that process

absolutely right one of them is fiona goddard who's from you from bradford and i know fiona

you know i know she's all very good um she lives just outside the constituency but she um

you know her i know her very well and i've built a relationship up with fiona since she first

contacted me back in 2020 why are the people quitting the process who this inquiry is meant

to be in fact the most important people involved in this inquiry are these people who are quitting

Why? Because they've lost faith, right? They've lost faith that they were given a voice to be part of an inquiry to have some level of influence on how that inquiry would be structured going forward with the terms of reference that it would form part, who the independent chair would be

And literally, we've now got to a point where three victims as at today have pulled themselves off being part of that panel because they have lost faith

Right. We've also heard one of the potential candidates to be part of the consideration by the Home Office to be the independent chair drop out of the race

She's a social worker called Annie Hudson, because I think the victims seem to think that it's not Annie Hudson's fault, but the idea that the social workers as a group fail the victims

So why should someone with a social work background be chairing it? That seems to be the concern

Seems to absolutely be the concern. But it feeds this narrative of lack of faith and lack and that disenfranchisement factor between those victims and survivors losing faith in again the state again, who should be there to provide a direction so that clarity can come out throughout the inquiry taking place. This is not a good scenario to be in, I have to say

It's how they're being treated, it seems, how they're being talked about or talked to

Some of the reading, some of the letters from the victims, they seem concerned about how they're being treated by maybe the Home Office, by officials, by the system, by something

Look, I've been absolutely clear that victims and survivors must be at the heart of this, right? And it seemed to be that that was the indication that the government were giving as part of having a victim-led panel of which Fiona and Ellie, who have dropped out this week, were part of

They have then pulled back because they have had concerns around the narrative that was being formed as part of the terms of reference, the scope

What does that mean, narrative? The narrative of how the terms of reference in terms of the level of scope that would be associated with it

i.e. that it was veering off being specifically focused on gang-related child sexual exploitation

Why does that matter? Why does that matter particularly? Because we've had the ICSA report, which came out in 22

That was the independent inquiry into child sexual exploitation. Yes, which was a very good piece of work that had been done by Alexis Jay

It was far wide-ranging. It came out with a decent number of good recommendations that should have been implemented

20 or so? On day one. 20 recommendations. Three have been implemented, apparently

Well, I don't think any actually have been properly implemented as at today

The government's narrative is three. But if you speak to individuals like David Greenwood, who form part of the ICSA task force

they are saying, well, actually, the narrative is three, but they haven't actually yet been implemented

This was a report that came out in 2022 and I've been absolutely critical of the previous Conservative administrations for not putting in those 20 recommendations following the 2022 report coming out

But yet we're in well over a year to this Labour government and we are still hearing that zero recommendations have been put in place

When we get to March, this Labour government will have had just as much time to put in place all of those 20 recommendations as the previous Conservative government did before the general election came about

Well, we'll judge them in March on that most definitely. Why does scope matter

So it's being widened away from predominantly Asian men doing the abusing of young white girls, which is where the heart of the story is

Scope matters because the ICSA report looked at all child sexual abuse quite rightly

It didn't specifically focus on gang-related child sexual exploitation. The rape gangs that we've seen haunt many constituents like mine in Keefe and across the..

There are two towns in there from memory, I think. So the ICSA report did not focus on any northern-based towns

and did not take any specific evidence associated with forming conclusions around gang child sexual exploitation which is why Baroness Casey came out very strongly in June earlier this year with a recommendation that there must be a national inquiry specifically focused very tightly on group

based child sexual exploitation. By predominantly Asian men, she said in her report. Correct

And that's where the focus must remain. Baroness Casey was very clear when those recommendations

So why is it being widened against a parent which is a Casey? So, well, the reality of it is that those conversations are taking place now, right

There is concern this week that it is being widened, right, by three victims that have pulled out

And they know what's going on. They're inside the tent. They are absolutely. And they are that concerned that they don't now longer want to be part of the panel and have part of the process

At a local level, I've also had concerns about advocacy coming in to the Home Office from local leaders that represent the Bradford District in the West Yorkshire region, advocating that it is now no longer tightly focused on areas that would be likes of Bradford or Keefley, but much bigger geographical areas like West Yorkshire

That goes against the tight focus that Baroness Casey was advocating for

She wants to have individual inquiries looking at individual towns and conurbations

with an overarching picture, not looking at West Yorkshire as a whole, in your case, for example

The population of West Yorkshire is over two million people. Right. When the review looked at Rotherham, which Professor Alexis Jay looked at

the population of Rotherham was about 200,000 people. Yeah. The point being here, it has to be tightly focused

if it's delivered true outcomes within the time that's been set by

The Home Office say this. They say the abuse of children by grooming gangs is one of the most horrific crimes imaginable

Any suggestion that this inquiry is being watered down is completely wrong

We are committed to delivering a robust, thorough inquiry that will get to the truth and provide the answers

that survivors have so long campaigned for. So Labour, the PM downwards, do talk a big game on this

They want to get to the heart of it. what is going wrong why can't this happen okay well they're giving very warm words but look we

are in october here why because my view is they have not got to grips on this issue at all we had

a statement given by the safeguarding minister jess phillips in the house of commons today it

was very clear that there is what progress has been made is being pulled apart by worry and

concern by victims that were on the panel around the terms of reference being widened and the scope

beyond the recommendation of Baroness Casey. Is it local council leaders? So there's a headline in one of the newspapers

that Labour is sabotaging the agreement inquiry. That is denied, of course, by Number 10 Downing Street

But is it Labour politicians, or is it politicians locally of whatever stripe

not wanting to have the scrutiny of an inquiry? Well, the view that I take is politicians of all political colours

have failed those victims and survivors for far too much. That is definitely true

And that absolutely has been the case. As a matter of fact, if you are a victim or a survivor in my constituency, you have a Labour-run Bradford Council

You have a Labour West Yorkshire mayor and deputy mayor for policing. We now have a Labour government

All three levels of that governance have previously said we do not want a national or local inquiry

I have been advocating for this since 2019 and I've been told this is not a local issue, this is a national issue

Then at a national level you got told by the Home Secretary, well this is a local issue. Therefore nothing ever been able to trigger

We literally had the leader of Bradford Council say that it would be too expensive, we wouldn't learn nothing new

Before Baroness Casey came out in June we had the West Yorkshire Mayor and the Deputy Mayor for Policing

literally say that we do not need that inquiry to be focused on Bradford Council

Since then, they are now advocating that if a independent chair deems it reasonable for West Yorkshire to be part of that inquiry, then they will participate

On a West Yorkshire level, not a Bradford level. That's your concern about that

My worry is that geographically it will be focused too largely for the levels of learning and outcome that must come from this, the levels of convictions that must take place, the level of trust that must be reinstalled back in that process, where there's been failings of the local authorities, national government or those with safeguarding responsibilities

It's got to be a local authority based level and truly independent, not the narrative that Jess Phillips put in a letter to the Home Affairs Select Committee just yesterday that said that the Home Office had been in discussions with Oldham Council about making sure the outcomes were right for Oldham

That is wrong because it should not be focused on what the local authority wants

It should, particularly when they're being investigated. This is where I fear the level of independence within the system is now gone

Does Labour want to deal with this? I say Labour, they're in power. The Labour government want to deal with this

They want to sort it out once and for all the victims. I hope they do, because it has to happen

And governments of all levels and all political colours have failed far too long

But what we are seeing from this government is them dragging their feet

We are now well into a year of this new government. We've had five local inquiries have promised at the beginning of this year

We're nearly at the end of October. We now know nothing new on that. And then we've had the national inquiry announcement

We now, still, where we are here, no further information on that

Action is not following the words that they're giving, and that's really deeply disappointing

Who should chair the inquiry? because now we've got one candidate, I think with a policing background

the social worker background person has gone. Should it be from somewhere overseas

I mean, number 10, sort of sources number 10 tell me that there were three candidates before Baroness Jay stepped up

So it has been a difficult inquiry in the past to find people to be in charge of it

But is everybody, the wrong word is tainted, but is everybody conflicted who could do this

in a sense whether it'd be where they're from or being their party they're part of or the

backgrounds it should be some someone from overseas maybe well i would ask the question

that it's got to look at what the outcomes are that you're wanting to achieve in my view

convictions must take place those organizations or individuals that have been part of the cover-up

previously have got to be held to account and convictions must follow if deemed necessary

Trust has got to be reinstalled back in the system. And that will only follow with proper convictions taking place

None of these weak sentences that we've seen or dual nationals running off to Pakistan and then it being an open secret where they're living and escaping justice

Convictions have to follow of organisations or individuals. So therefore I do think it is right to say well should it be a judge that is the right person where hopefully trust and faith is installed in those individuals to be truly independent to be willing to go anywhere where the evidence leads that

So should we be a judge? Absolutely. A Commonwealth judge with a similar kind of legal background to the UK, possibly

Absolutely be the type of an individual that is worthy of consideration for this appointment

You mentioned convictions there. Just from what you know in Bradford, how many convictions are we looking at, do you think

Well, I've always said, and this is based on interactions with individuals like Fiona Goddard or working with David Greenwood

who has represented many of those victims and survivors from Rotherham and indeed across the Bradford District

that the scale of the issue across the Bradford District will dwarf that of Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, Oldham, where there's been inquiries previously

We have had no inquiry at all that has focused on Keefley and the wider Bradford district

But yet all of those reports, or the vast majority of them, reference children, predominantly white young girls that have been trafficked through the Bradford district

By predominantly Asian men? By predominantly Asian men. And again, if you look at all of the convictions that have taken place across Keefley and the Bradford district, it has mainly been Asian men

So what's the scale of this? How many convictions will we be looking at if you get what you want, which is justice for these victims

It will be well into the thousands. Tens of thousands. It will be well into the thousands. It will be huge

Many thousands. It will be many, many thousands. We produced a report that went to the Home Office that has been delivered to Jess Phillips

which is advocating that it will be well into the thousands of individuals

Number 10 tells us there is no crisis over this. They want to get to the bottom of what they call one of the greatest scandals in our country's history

They say they're determined to get justice for the victims. Do you believe them

Do you believe Keir Starmer when he says he wants to get to the bottom of this? You don't believe Keir Starmer? No, I really worry about the messaging that comes out from the Prime Minister

He had people like me that has been lucky enough to be a member of Parliament advocating for this issue

He had victims, survivors constantly coming forward. You had members of the public worried about rape gangs that are taking place in areas like the Bradford District or other areas across the community

And he used the narrative that all of us were jumping on that far right bandwagon

In his words. In his words, trying to quash the quite reasonable narrative and levels of concern, levels of fear that were being raised

and he is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom where we should have faith in, hopefully

in what he is wanting to achieve. That had completely been diminished by the group

of which he was trying to associate reasonable people from raising legitimate concerns

He says that he, of course, at DPP, prosecuted some of the first grooming gangs

maybe the first grooming gangs case, when it was DPP 2008 to 2014, I think, from memory

So he would say his record shows he is taking it seriously and has done and is doing now as an office

So why on earth are we in October 2025, them having been in government for well over a year and have us not got to the position of even knowing the detail of who is going to be running this independent inquiry into the Child Sexual Exploitation National Enquirer

So if Peter Starmer was sitting here, what would you tell him? To get it on with it and to pull his finger out. There are victims and survivors that want to have trust reinstalled back in the system. They want those convictions to follow and they want those organisations who have been part of the cover up held to account and for them to have convictions put against them. Why on earth is this Prime Minister dragging his feet on an issue which has potentially been the biggest national scandal that this country has ever experienced

Robbie Moore, Katori MP for Keith and Hilti. Thank you for joining us today on Chopper's Political Podcast

Thank you. Thank you. A quick warning that some viewers and listeners may find the following interview distressing

as it involves a discussion on rape and sexual abuse. Natalie Fleet, MP for Bolsover, your first time on Chopper's Political Podcast

It's great to have you here. Thank you for having me. I've long been a listener of Chopper's political podcast

Yeah, I've got a funny story about it. I'm on. So I had a nightmare that Lee Anderson, my MP

you know, I've known him many years. From Ashfield. Yeah, that he was in my ear

And then I woke up and I realised I hadn't put the sleep timer

in my earphone, so the podcast was just running. He went to your podcast and I rewound it

and Lee Anderson said, Now then, Chopper. And I thought, that's it

It was never a nightmare. So yes, I have long been a listener. And it feels very cool to be on the, joining you today

It's very cool to have you here. And what you've done is a very cool thing

You've been an MP for about 17 months, 18 months, MP for Bolsover, of course

And you've changed the law. Now, a lot of backbench MPs never get to do this

Men never get to make them laugh. In fact, you can speak to cabinet ministers who tell me they're amazed how little they

feel they affect anything. Everything is carried on the same way and they can't make even little

changes, I think. I mean, if you talk to Theresa May, her big thing was the Modern Slavery Act

which is a big deal, okay, but given she was Prime Minister and Home Secretary, it's quite a narrow

bit of law there. That's her big thing. And what have you done? So I used to teach trade union

organising courses and we knew then that you needed to see an injustice, but seeing an injustice

wasn't enough because nobody's ever done anything about this so many people have said that can't be

right that's not the law there's no way that's the law and then you have to have an organization

that is prepared to fight the injustice i think that's the government led by somebody who used to

be director of public prosecutions absolutely got formed for dealing with violence against women and

girls and then somebody yeah and then somebody the missing piece of jigsaw was having a survivor

on our benches when we were in government. I mean, I never thought that rape was part of my story

I never wanted it to be part of my story. We should explain to listeners what you've done here. You've amended the Victims and Courts Bill

And what is the problem and what have you solved with this legislation? So, in this country, there's 10 babies born every day as a result of rape

I have been shouting about that since I became an MP. Told the Prime Minister, and it's like, you're joking

We need to do something about that. Like we do need to do something about that. So this isn't something that happens in faraway countries

It's happening here right now. These women aren't talking about it. They're not telling people because they're scared

because they're scared of what's going to happen. And one woman told me the reason she wasn't speaking out

is because the man had threatened her and he'd said, if you tell a single person, I will come for you

and I will come for that child. It doesn't matter if I get sent to prison

I will have lifelong access to that child. I will be able to make decisions about where they go to school

about their health, about what they're named. You will never, ever be rid of me

They have parental rights, the rapists, over these 10 babies born every day

Yeah, and how is that the case? So I tell the Prime Minister, I tell everybody, including the Queen

which was very cool to be able to talk to her about this, and I just keep telling everybody

And the first thing they say is that can be true There no way that true It just common sense Take away the rights of rapists and give those rights to survivors

How has that not happened? Because we've not been talking about rape enough in Parliament. Do you know in the last Parliament

we spoke about football more often than rape. Nobody is talking about it

And that was never my plan to come in and talk about it

But as a campaigner, you come in, you think, right, I'm going to talk about potholes. I'm going to talk about bowls over school

That's easier. And then I come in, and the first thing, it was your lovely colleague, Gloria DiPiero

She asked me. She asked me if I was excited. She's been a friend for a very long time

She's never asked me this question before. Nobody's ever asked me. She asked me if I was excited when I had a positive pregnancy test at 15

And I said, oh, my God, of course I wasn't excited. I was absolutely horrified. I thought I'd be married with kids and a lot

married and a lot older with a stable job and stuff when I had children. I didn't think I'd be 15 and pregnant

all of my teachers were horrified they were telling me that Natalie had so much promise and

potential you've ruined your life and you've ruined your life of your unborn child as well

absolutely horrendous so what is normal in my community because in Ashfield where I live in

Bowles over where I now represent their neighbouring constituencies we had in the year 2000 when my

daughter was born the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe the government saw us and my god

they were looking after us and made sure that they stopped that happening with the teenage pregnancy strategy they made sure that we got sure starts and that we um that I could still go

on to university all of that was amazing but what nobody was asking the government um healthcare

professionals teachers nobody was asking Natalie what happened to you were you okay there were

people in the street that were shouting oh my god you're a slag and you know just so many people

told me that I'd wrote mine and her life off but nobody was asking the question because everybody

pretty much believed it was my fault. So you were raped at 15 and that led for pregnancy

So it was statutory rape. So I was, I was absolutely consenting. I thought I was an adult

I wanted to be, all I wanted was a boyfriend with a car. I thought I was a grownup and I

absolutely thought that we were having protected sex because I'd done sex education. Why wouldn't

you have protected sex that would be ridiculous when I fell pregnant I realized I said to him what

happened why why weren't we having why weren't we using condoms I've done sex education in school

you should be using condoms and he says I thought you're on the pill and I'm like well I never told

you that you never asked me that so looking back there's two reasons that it would be right that

we now recognize one I was a child children having children are something that when I go to schools

I don't see anymore because the last Labour government stopped it, thank God

Then the second part is that we now, we didn't talk about it then, but we now see that when somebody believes that they're having protected sex

and it turns out they're not, then that's also rape. So I feel that I've got a huge amount of privilege because of the way that I was raped

So I've got my birth certificate, my daughter's birth certificate and a DNA test

I'm still too scared to go to the police. The police have been lovely and they've been in touch

I didn't do it. I don't want to put myself through it. So instead, I'm thinking, where does my responsibility lie

Because I have massive responsibility on this. 10,000 women in Bolsover have been raped

172 women MPs have been raped. This is if we take national statistics and apply them to the women

I went to see the Lionesses, and I'm sat looking at the team sheet, working out that seven of them have been raped

They're not talking about it. If there was any woman... That's the probability

Yes. So you just take the chances of... And because nobody's talking about it, nobody's reporting about it

You're just so rogue. Are they? There's no faith in the system anyway. No. So the hurdles are nobody is going to believe me

Nobody. We're talking about my family, my friends. Nobody's going to believe me

Now, the more I've spoken out and the more support I've got, I think I was wrong on that

And I would ask women to tell their family and friends because they do believe you

Then you think the police aren't going to believe you. We're making sure that we've got specialist officers

in 999 control rooms and that you're going to have somebody that's going to support the victims

right the way through this process. We're now making sure that where there's rape

where there's conviction of rape, parental responsibility will automatically be removed. Even better still, if there isn't a conviction

because they are so hard to get, if there isn't a conviction, but the court thinks that this may have been conceived by rape

they make a referral to the local authority. The local authority then remove parental responsibility

in cooperation with the mother. So we're saying, we see you, we know how tough this is

we know that this is really traumatic, and we're just going to do this for you

We don't want you to be re-traumatised. If you don't remind a victim to do that, it happens anyway

Takes them out of the conversation. The less we ask of victims, the better, because, my God

I mean, what one woman told me is she couldn't remember the rape

She woke up and the man was inside her. She couldn't remember anything else that happened

It clearly happened. And then she fell pregnant. And then the nine months of the rape growing inside her was the worst part

People congratulating her on a pregnancy that she wished wasn't there. She told me about the time she tried to take her life

so that she could remove the problem of her and the baby. She then told me about the trauma of giving birth

and how much she struggles every birthday. So she has to pretend that she's having an amazing birthday party with her child

She can't let a child know how she feels. But every birthday is really, really, really tough

When you describe the rape growing aside her. And she couldn't get rid of it. She told me she tried

She just couldn't. Basically, by the time she tried to take her own life during the pregnancy

and it was the psychiatric team that said, this is rape, that's why you keep trying to take your life

this is why we're involved, this is what's happened to you. She said that she didn't believe him

By the time she did believe him, it was too late to have a termination

Gosh. Well, Natalie, I mean, and so you've got this amendment through

When does the Victims and Courts Bill become law? So it's Monday, the 27th of October, 2025

Wow. If you are around and you would like to have a drink, then I would love that

I don't drink, but my God, we can toast it with orange juice if we have to

Anybody that wants to celebrate, if anybody could just think on that day, my God, it's a very big deal

That's just Monday. Yeah, it is. I'm very, very, very excited. It's deeply moving talking to you now, Dale

I'd never talked to a backbench MP like it. You've absolutely, you've seen the problem and you've dealt with it

and you've gone to the right people and you've made a real mark. So there are, I never thought I could be an MP

I met your presenter, Glory de Piero, in 2010. She went, oh my God, you're normal

I thought, I feel like she's telling me that as a compliment, but I've never been called normal as a compliment

No, she's made it the last one. From then, she said, you've got to be an MP, you've got to be an MP

and the amount of arguments I've had with her and said, Gloria, people like me don't become MPs

I am a normal person... From my community, I met my husband at school

We've never moved from where we lived. Like, we don't enter Parliament

We don't even go to London very often, never mind represent people

And then there was Jess Phillips. I said, I can't be an MP. She's like, you've got to be an MP

And then so many other people. I mean, you look at Angela Rayner in Parliament

They made me believe that I could do it. But what happens is, when you get normal people in Parliament

is you take the problems of your constituency that haven't ever touched London or Westminster

and you make them into issues that you can do something about in government

So when people talk about the privilege of being an MP, that is it

That's the privilege. And maybe our role, part of our role at GB News is finding those stories from people who can't tell them

and get an audience for them and present them to a wider audience in a slightly different way

What I love, the reason I love GB News is because people in my constituency watch you

They care about what you have to say. and that yes that is why you you need to be getting out you can come to us over any time

and we'll have a chat to constituents together happily i've got to ask you about what's going

on in politics at the moment also with the the grooming gangs inquiry um you had this very rather

moving exchange with a safeguarding minister jess phillips in the house of commerce let's hear what

was said today the government announced that it will take parental responsibility away where a child

is born of rape. This will protect grooming victims. Children in this country will no

longer be the only proceed of crime that criminals can have lifelong access to

Does the Minister agree with me that survivors have been failed for too long by a government

that didn't prioritise giving them justice, a party led by a leader of the opposition

that did not mention grooming when she had the power to do something about it

Instead, survivors have had to wait for victims and activists to be on these benches

and the most fierce of advocates to be at the dispatch box

I thank the Honourable Lady and I think she mischaracterises me as the fiercest of advocates

because she, as a grooming victim herself, with a child born of rape, is the fiercest

bravest. I could cry, I feel so proud that what this government did was seek to get her elected

And I have been campaigning for the thing that she has fought for, with grooming gang victims

for nearly a decade. I met with ministers of the then government

and nothing was done. It is because she, well, the exact thing

that the member for Bolsover has campaigned for was asked for repeatedly

and nothing was done. It is because of her and this government

that today I am incredibly proud of her and to say that will change

That was a course, I mean, Jess Phillips, she worked with victims of domestic abuse in Birmingham, I think

She knows about victims. What is going wrong here? Why are four victims leaving a viziness inquiry

You're a victim. You know how victims feel. Is there a victim's blaming issue going on here by the wider government

I'm not blaming Jess Phillips, but it may be that her, the way she's communicating isn't cutting through

or doing the right, selling the right things for these victims? So I see very, very clearly

what's happening here and I feel very strongly about it and I can understand both sides

I wish they would just come together and talk it through. Jess has reached out to the survivors

and I think that getting them in a room together would be really important. So how I see it is

we have got a safeguarding minister who's been campaigning on laws like mine for years

who has made sure that we've got people like me in Parliament. She cares

She cares deeply. she will not let there be a stitch up she will make sure there's a proper inquiry with a proper

cheer she will never ever let us have cheap political fixes so get a chair in quickly she

wants it to be the right chair she wants it to be the person that's going to actually do the work

she wants victims to be listened to she's so determined to for it not to be a cover-up or a

stitch-up that she's made sure that she isn't having anything to do with it and this is all an

independent external charity that you've then got that that is who she is she is the person

i don't know why that's not cutting through because i'll tell you why the second part

we don't trust people if people come and knock on my door i don't answer my husband does

i victims you mean yeah i think that if you've got into a position where you're groomed in the

first place things have probably been quite tricky i've got a history of homelessness and

domestic violence, things that I don't have to talk about because other people do, thank God. I only talk about rape because nobody else is doing. Life has been quite tough and you've always

I've been taught not to trust the police, not to trust people that, I can remember my next door

neighbour said to me, I'm not going to Shorestar, it's full of social workers that want to take my

kids off me. So they have been let down for so long and then this is what really, really gets to

me, the last government, Kemi Badenok was Women and Equalities Minister. She never mentioned

grooming. Now it's advantageous to her. She's using victims to have a go at the government

When she had the power to help us, she didn't. She left us. She was another one of the long

list of people that let us down. Now she's using us again. So I see these victims that

don't trust government, police, the establishment, and we are part of that. So I'd like them

I know that Jess has reached out to them I'd like them to get to a place where they can trust Jess

and see that she doing the right things for the right reasons because she won let there be a cover And I would like us to I like them to have faith in an independent inquiry

Yeah, meet her. Yeah, I think that that would be... I think, I strongly, genuinely believe

that the government is doing the right thing in making sure proper independent inquiry

It's her background and your background. Both of your backgrounds would be ideal

for liaising with these victims, between the state and the victim groups

because of her background, but it just isn't working at the moment. So you had, I hope that we've had a nice conversation

and I hope that some of your listeners will believe that I come from a really authentic place

I would like to be in my constituency. I would like to not be talking about any of these things

but I know it's the right thing to do. One victim, one survivor, reached out to me

and said I should be ashamed of being part of the government

This was a long time ago. and there are victims that believe that you are part of the problem

if you have anything to do with any of the services that let them down so badly

I believe, I strongly, strongly, strongly believe that this is how you get change

This is how we get the law. This is how we stop rapists having access to kids

This is how we make sure that victims are protected going forward. I believe that government is a solution

I also don't judge victims that see us part of the problem

And so you look at the two chairs who have been proposed. One's backed away now, the social worker candidate

and there's another one who's a police officer. How do you find the right chair who's trusted

I mean, is it a foreign judge, which is what some are saying? Someone like Baroness Casey, Louise Casey, she's kind of trusted, isn't she

Yeah, she's really... How does she earn that trust? And who can be someone like Baroness Casey

So when we had the last inquiry, the jury report, It took us three chairs and two years to get to Alexis J

So what we're doing is saying we're going to find the right chair from the off

We're not going to wait to get the right chair. We're going to take time finding a chair

Finding a chair that people trust is difficult. Yes, we'd love to clone Baroness Casey, but, you know, she's got a lot on her hands

We've now got a government that's listening to everything she said and making sure that we meet those recommendations

What Jess was absolutely clear on yesterday, she isn't involved in the process of picking the chair

It's her job to make sure that the government has overview of the process so that the chair is trusted, but are completely separate from the process

The government aren't choosing the chair. I think that's the right thing. And those victims, the grooming gang's victims, will get justice somehow

We've heard from Shabala Mahmood overnight telling GB News that will happen. You're confident it will happen

So I am absolutely, I just, I hate that it's taken so long. I hate all that I've had to go through

I mean, I'm talking about the 25 years it's taken. 25 years ago, we were called slag sluts, slappers that had brought this on ourselves

We were seen as the problem. It's taken 25 years for us to be told that I'm sorry this happened to you and we will support you

But thank God we are being. And I see Shibana and I'm like, she is a kick-ass kind of woman that is going to make sure that we all get justice

I am really proud to have her as our Home Secretary. Well, it's very good words this week

Let's hope it can deliver the victims. It has to, and it will

And I'm there on the back benches making sure we do. You will be. Listen, Natalie, I'll be raising a glass to you on Monday

for your campaign work. It's been an absolute pleasure, a real pleasure to have you on Chopper's Computer Podcast

Right, now for a change of pace. Joining me now is the former leader of the House of Commons

Dame Penny Mordaunt, who has a new book out called Pomp and Circumstance, Why Britain's

Traditions Matter. Well, we can all agree with that. Penny, welcome to Chopper's Political

Podcast. Thank you for having me. Why does, then, tradition matter? Some would say

what's the point in the 21st century? Well, the motivation for writing this was really my

experience as the late Queen's last and the King's first Lord President. And that huge change for us

moving to a new monarch was done against the backdrop of immense political turmoil. It was

the start of the Lizard Trust administration. And I saw how the incredible ceremonies and rituals of

the Accession Council, all that followed right through to the coronation, held the country

together. It gave us a sense of ourselves, clothed us in our rightful mind, and really strengthened

us as a nation. So I started looking into what else these incredible rituals do. They hold our

uncodified constitution together. And in communities, people are feeling the need to

revive them and bring them back. And I think at a time when we want transformational politics

and we look at people who've been successful in doing that, it's because their radical program

has been rooted in the familiar, the traditional things like our faith and our history. So I think

This is a superpower, Chris, that I think will enable our country to do well

I want to take it for granted, this idea of this, the important, why we do problems and circumstances so well and why America can't do it

for example, as I've seen recently, with some of their parades. You were Lord President of the Privy Council

and that was meant that you handled the Accession Council, wasn't it? That's right

When all the Privy Councillors or those invited gathered to acclaim the new king

And you carried, of course, the famous sword, didn't you, around with very strong arms around the Abbey on the day of the coronation

Yes. Big spectacles that people remember. But there was a purpose to all of that

And it moved people. I mean, after the coronation, I got hundreds, actually thousands of letters from people

I got more letters than I got votes at any election. And also some beautiful drawings done by children of me in my dress with the sword

And they would I became a sort of lightning rod for everything that they were feeling about their country And it was really losing But you right we not like the US The US is going through institution bashing the president writing all these executive orders Congress is scratching its head

It's a young country. The amazing thing about us is that our rule book has been forged over a

thousand years and stress tested to destruction. That is an incredible thing. It gives us amazing

flexibility and adaptability, it creates reliability. At least it should do. See, the politics of that is it's not because the ETHR

is stopping, for example, courts or politicians. I know, but those things are, given the millennia

that has been forced, are fairly modern things. I mean, the Supreme Court was only brought in

a short while ago. And guess what? It's not working as we collectively wanted it to

So we're going to sort it out. I mean, the absolute testimony of this is Brexit. We got through that because of all these incredible institutions and the relationship between them. It is a superpower. And I think that when we look at the world as it is, and the public is crying out for a really radical programme from their politicians, we ought to be asking ourselves how we can do this really well

And I think the key to it is to really link it back to what we've done well before and those that have been successful in doing transformational change

It is amazing, isn't it, that this country voted to leave the European Union. People voted and no major party was campaigning for that

It was the will of the people imposed on the Tories who were in power and they then delivered it

I mean, that is a other countries have reversed those votes. And I don't think we're going to reverse our vote. I mean, the amazing thing about Brexit, and I'm one of those rare Brexiteers that actually campaigned and voted for it. But I've always given credit to the real heroes of Brexit. It wasn't people like me that campaigned and voted for it. It was people that voted remain and accepted the result. That's the strength

True patriotic. That is, that is. And I mean, that is what makes us a remarkable nation

And I just think at a time when everyone is quite negative

people are draping flags around lampposts because they're desperate to feel proud of their nation

Is that why? So why are they doing that? Some would say that's, well, critics say

and I don't agree with this, that's a far right thing. That's something to do with anti-immigrant feeling

Or is it people want to be proud of where they're from and feel that's under threat

I think it is the latter. I think people want their nation to be really capable

They want their government, whatever political hue, to be effective and knock it out the park and make them proud

And that pride is really important. It's not a trivial thing. In the book, we talk about why it's so essential

to the country doing well in the future. It's about being confident about your abilities

We quote Richard Rorty, who said that national pride is to countries. what self-belief is to individuals

It's a necessary condition for self-improvement. And the driving force in politics at the moment

is people don't feel that Westminster and Whitehall are capable. The people of this country are capable

You've got amazing things going on all the time. They want the people that are supposed to be leading the charge with them

to be as effective as they are. It seems so impotent. I mean, I've just been..

The past four days, I mean, the PM is angry on Friday that a football team called Maccabee Tel Aviv

can't play in Birmingham because they can't go to the safety of the fans

He steps in. He orders three academy ministers to do something about it

the Home Secretary, the Culture Secretary, the local government secretary. Nothing happens

And now it's Tuesday. The club itself said we won't take off our location

I just think people look at this. I'm not really blaming Labour. I think it would be frankly the same with the Tories

But they think, can't anyone do anything anymore and just step up and just boss around the system to deliver what was an obvious solution

Well, the public are looking at government and there's something along every hour which illustrates that point

But also, I think people are feeling that their agency is being stripped away as well

I mean, is anyone that has ever tried to fill in a pothole themselves? Well, no. Yeah, told off

Exactly. We've got to get back to people recognising that they need to take responsibility for things and reward people that take responsibility, whether it's taking the responsibility for creating jobs and wealth for the country, whether it's about taking care of your community or sorting that pothole out on your road so an ambulance can get to the OAP's home at the top of it

But, you know, we have just got to get back to that. That is what we are as a people

And that's what they want to see from the government. If we're going to do that transformational politics that people want

we need, if we're going to be successful, to do it in a way that takes the country with us

And you're giving it a democratic mandate, which is what, you know, we're bringing back a third of our laws from Brussels to Westminster

That's fantastic. I wonder whether there's unfinished business on Brexit. all of these different quangos that mean the government can't do stuff

because the quangos in charge. Just get rid of all them and bring them all back under MPs' control

There's loads we can do. Is that the unfinished or unfinished business of Brexit? There's so much we can do

And actually the opportunities that were there were so vast. Almost too much

It's not a criticism that we haven't got everything done all in one go. But there's still so much to do on trade

I mean, as you will remember, in lieu of a federal deal with the US, I went state by state around the US doing these mini deals at state level because that is where all the regulation sits

And that was really meaningful things, things like mutual recognition of qualifications

So it easier for an accountant in Edinburgh or Bradford or wherever to work on a on a project in a US state than it is for an accountant in the state next door These are real tangible meaningful things So much we could do with the Commonwealth I mean there loads that we could do Yeah I mean I vividly remember being with you I think were you on the last day on the

bus, on the battle bus, on vote leave at Bournemouth? Yes. I was with you on the bus and I did

a tweet saying, if Brits vote tomorrow to leave the European Union, it's the biggest

peasants' revolt since Wat Tyler that did all that work. I mean, I think it really

was a moment of the ordinary a British person saying to the leaders, do it differently

And we're still waiting for the answer. And I think that collectively, the British people have a very clear sense of themselves

Throughout the book, each chapter we quote from the 1944 film This Happy Breed, with

Frank and Ethel Gibbons, who are the central characters. And we dedicate the book to them because they represent Britons

They represent pragmatic, good people, patriotic people who care about their country, who care about their community and feel tremendous pride when we step up and do the right thing

They ignore for too long. And I think they have been ignored, but they know how to make their voices and their views heard

What I think we need, though, is to really, if we're wanting to serve them well, politicians of every political hue need to look at Westminster and Whitehall in particular and answer the question why things don't work, how to fix things

And I think that my experiences in that particular 18 months working with the king and seeing actually the mechanics of how everything works and holds together has given me some insight to how to do that

Just on that, and just while you mention the royal family, this is a political podcast and we are talking a lot about Prince Andrew living in Royal Lodge on a peppercorn rent, allowed to do so by the Crown Estate

What should happen here? You know the king pretty well, but most politicians probably, should he act more firmly against his brother

Look, I think the royal family to everyone in this country means service and duty. They're not there for the baubles and the glamour. They're there to serve us. And having met the king and his late mother, that is what they embody. And that's why people feel so let down over what has happened

I think the king is very pragmatic and he understands this. And I think what he has done is the right thing. Andrew is in a peculiar situation and he will have to make some decisions about what he thinks is the right thing to do

But I think the king is taking a very pragmatic line. He's right to do what he's done. And I hope that, although I understand the upset for reasons I've said, the king will have the focus back on the important work he's doing, whether it's in the UK or what's going on at the moment with Rome

So there's more to do, you think, for Prince Andrew. Maybe he should move out of that property and withdraw completely from living on the taxpayer's expense

Well, I am not across the detail of how that is funded. The King will have private funds. He doesn't use taxpayers' money for everything. But I think he'll be acutely aware of the sensitivities around this. And I think he's been right to move as he has. And I wish him well with getting focused back on his important work

And your role, you're on the list, aren't you, to be a Conservative candidate in the next election

Going through that process, yes. Have you got a secret? No, I haven't

take a while. It's, no, I shall, if I'm not back, it won't be through

lack of trying, Chris. It's a marvellous privilege to do it and there's so much

more I've got to do. Yeah. Yeah. So again, Portsmouth North, you lost to Labour

as Amanda Martin last July. Would you take on the same challenge again there? I've got to get selected

and it is, it is luck and timing, I'm afraid. So I don't know

where I will end up but yeah, I would hope to be back

And another run for leader? I've covered two of yours. I think two might be enough, Chris

And, I mean, Kemi, I think, is doing a really good job. I loved her announcements at conference

I think that's what I mean by transformational politics. Kills it out, Jutting

Can she follow through on that, though? Because of, yes, great conference speech

but until that point it was a bit lacklustre. We need to see more, I would say

Oh, and there will be, but believe me, there will be. But she's got to do the hard yards behind it

Yeah, a lot of work to do there. Thank you. Well, Dame Penny Mordorne, thank you for joining us today

on Chopper's Physical Podcast and to my previous guest, Robbie Moore, MP

I tweet at aironx, at Christopher Hope, and what is your Twitter handle

Dame Penny Mordorne? It is Penny Mordorne. Is it? For a straightforward? Yes, very straightforward

Let us both know on Twitter what you think of the podcast. If you enjoyed the show

like Dame Penny Mordorne has, please tell your friends. If you really enjoyed it, leave a 5-star rating

and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you can find it

What's the book called again? And I can realise it's Pomp and Circumstance, Why British Traditions Matter, and all the proceeds are going to some amazing veterans charities

So please support. Here it is. Available at all good bookshops, costing, well, how much

£22, a snip. Thanks to the great team of GB News colleagues behind the podcast

Mick Booker and Geoff Marsh, and the busy work it be used today in person

George McMillan and, of course, the Queen Bee herself, Rebecca Nunes. But most importantly, thank you again for listening

if you want more chopper in your life and they do and so does Dame Penny Mordaunt catch you during the week

on GB News with our latest political updates and scoops and stories and our best reporting

on our website which is called GBNews.com but until next time I'm off to be

full of patriotic fervour Trafalgar day why not thank you cheerio