Rockin’ The Code World with dotNetDave - Ep. 106

Name: Rockin’ The Code World with dotNetDave - Ep. 106 | Open Video
Uploaded: 2025-08-06T12:04:10+00:00
Duration: 1 h 37 min 40 s

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[Applause] welcome Geeks to another exciting
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welcome Geeks to another exciting
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welcome Geeks to another exciting episode of rocking the code world with
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episode of rocking the code world with
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episode of rocking the code world with donet Dave I'm David mcarter I'm glad
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donet Dave I'm David mcarter I'm glad
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donet Dave I'm David mcarter I'm glad you're back it's been a month I've
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you're back it's been a month I've
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you're back it's been a month I've missed you all I hope I hope you missed
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missed you all I hope I hope you missed
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missed you all I hope I hope you missed the show it's been a a crazy month for
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the show it's been a a crazy month for
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the show it's been a a crazy month for me uh personally but uh and the weather
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me uh personally but uh and the weather
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me uh personally but uh and the weather in San Diego is freaking hot so I all of
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in San Diego is freaking hot so I all of
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in San Diego is freaking hot so I all of you in Phoenix and Vegas don't talk to
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you in Phoenix and Vegas don't talk to
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you in Phoenix and Vegas don't talk to me but it's too hot for San Diego right
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me but it's too hot for San Diego right
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me but it's too hot for San Diego right now and it's not going to let up until
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now and it's not going to let up until
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now and it's not going to let up until so uh like Wednesday we've had a really
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so uh like Wednesday we've had a really
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so uh like Wednesday we've had a really hot August for some reason I don't know
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hot August for some reason I don't know
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hot August for some reason I don't know why I picked a bad time to donate my air
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why I picked a bad time to donate my air
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why I picked a bad time to donate my air conditioner to uh
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conditioner to uh
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conditioner to uh Goodwill and last week I uh I uh tore
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Goodwill and last week I uh I uh tore
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Goodwill and last week I uh I uh tore ligaments in my left hand so uh I'm kind
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ligaments in my left hand so uh I'm kind
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ligaments in my left hand so uh I'm kind of bummed because I can't play guitar
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of bummed because I can't play guitar
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of bummed because I can't play guitar for I don't know maybe six or eight
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for I don't know maybe six or eight
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for I don't know maybe six or eight weeks that really sucks so uh but I've
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weeks that really sucks so uh but I've
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weeks that really sucks so uh but I've been keeping busy been writing been
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been keeping busy been writing been
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been keeping busy been writing been doing other stuff and uh and I'm really
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doing other stuff and uh and I'm really
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doing other stuff and uh and I'm really super super excited about this show um
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super super excited about this show um
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super super excited about this show um I've been working on the show for for
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I've been working on the show for for
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I've been working on the show for for many many months and been wanting to do
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many many months and been wanting to do
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many many months and been wanting to do this show for even longer and so I'm so
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this show for even longer and so I'm so
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this show for even longer and so I'm so glad that I've been able to uh assemble
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glad that I've been able to uh assemble
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glad that I've been able to uh assemble a great panel of experts with the Billy
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a great panel of experts with the Billy
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a great panel of experts with the Billy David Dustin Jared and Sean will all
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David Dustin Jared and Sean will all
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David Dustin Jared and Sean will all introduce themselves very quick uh in a
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introduce themselves very quick uh in a
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introduce themselves very quick uh in a few minutes and uh they we'll get into
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few minutes and uh they we'll get into
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few minutes and uh they we'll get into the panel show so I I wanted to do a
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the panel show so I I wanted to do a
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the panel show so I I wanted to do a panel show on to help developers prepare
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panel show on to help developers prepare
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panel show on to help developers prepare for being in this career for a long time
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for being in this career for a long time
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for being in this career for a long time and
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and
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and um just because I had I didn't get much
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um just because I had I didn't get much
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um just because I had I didn't get much advice I'll talk about that in a second
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advice I'll talk about that in a second
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advice I'll talk about that in a second so anyway I've been able to gather uh
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so anyway I've been able to gather uh
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so anyway I've been able to gather uh not only a group of people that I
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not only a group of people that I
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not only a group of people that I respect but a group of people from
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respect but a group of people from
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respect but a group of people from different Generations uh different uh uh
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different Generations uh different uh uh
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different Generations uh different uh uh ways they've gone through their Tech
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ways they've gone through their Tech
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ways they've gone through their Tech Career like from big companies to
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Career like from big companies to
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Career like from big companies to Consulting companies to even one person
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Consulting companies to even one person
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Consulting companies to even one person even owns his own company so I wanted to
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even owns his own company so I wanted to
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even owns his own company so I wanted to get a big variety of different opinions
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get a big variety of different opinions
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get a big variety of different opinions uh for you younger developer for any
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uh for you younger developer for any
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uh for you younger developer for any developer really but really targeted to
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developer really but really targeted to
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developer really but really targeted to the younger developers so you can
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the younger developers so you can
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the younger developers so you can prepare for being in this career 20 plus
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prepare for being in this career 20 plus
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prepare for being in this career 20 plus years uh because you know when I started
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years uh because you know when I started
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years uh because you know when I started I didn't think I'd be here this long to
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I didn't think I'd be here this long to
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I didn't think I'd be here this long to tell you the truth uh but here I am so
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tell you the truth uh but here I am so
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tell you the truth uh but here I am so uh so let me let me go over a little bit
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uh so let me let me go over a little bit
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uh so let me let me go over a little bit about you know why I've been wanting to
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about you know why I've been wanting to
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about you know why I've been wanting to do this show for a while
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do this show for a while
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do this show for a while and on Sunday I released an article of
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and on Sunday I released an article of
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and on Sunday I released an article of my six top tips Min is the number one
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my six top tips Min is the number one
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my six top tips Min is the number one tip I'll give at the end of the show so
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tip I'll give at the end of the show so
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tip I'll give at the end of the show so if you're watching uh before I forget
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if you're watching uh before I forget
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if you're watching uh before I forget make sure you start putting in your uh
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make sure you start putting in your uh
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make sure you start putting in your uh questions now so we can get the uh panel
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questions now so we can get the uh panel
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questions now so we can get the uh panel to uh answer them and also the panel
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to uh answer them and also the panel
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to uh answer them and also the panel we're all going to be holding our number
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we're all going to be holding our number
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we're all going to be holding our number one tip until the very end of the show
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one tip until the very end of the show
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one tip until the very end of the show uh and to to leave the show off with a
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uh and to to leave the show off with a
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uh and to to leave the show off with a bang especially since this is the last
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bang especially since this is the last
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bang especially since this is the last show of season 4 uh for the show so on
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show of season 4 uh for the show so on
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show of season 4 uh for the show so on Sunday I put out an article uh surviving
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Sunday I put out an article uh surviving
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Sunday I put out an article uh surviving and thriving in Tech and uh it has my
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and thriving in Tech and uh it has my
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and thriving in Tech and uh it has my well five of the tips uh I'll add my
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well five of the tips uh I'll add my
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well five of the tips uh I'll add my number one tip after the show today um
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number one tip after the show today um
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number one tip after the show today um about you know and some of the tips I've
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about you know and some of the tips I've
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about you know and some of the tips I've been talking about for a long time some
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been talking about for a long time some
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been talking about for a long time some tips are new in that article but as I've
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tips are new in that article but as I've
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tips are new in that article but as I've you know as I've looked back on my
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you know as I've looked back on my
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you know as I've looked back on my career uh which has been 30 years now
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career uh which has been 30 years now
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career uh which has been 30 years now I've been in a full-time software
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I've been in a full-time software
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I've been in a full-time software engineer you know uh
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engineer you know uh
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engineer you know uh and you know the quite frankly the
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and you know the quite frankly the
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and you know the quite frankly the challenges I've been uh experiencing on
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challenges I've been uh experiencing on
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challenges I've been uh experiencing on finding a new position and uh whether
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finding a new position and uh whether
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finding a new position and uh whether you know that's uh I'm I'm I'm
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you know that's uh I'm I'm I'm
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you know that's uh I'm I'm I'm experiencing agism or people don't want
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experiencing agism or people don't want
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experiencing agism or people don't want to pay for my experience whatever it is
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to pay for my experience whatever it is
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to pay for my experience whatever it is we'll we'll get into that during the
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we'll we'll get into that during the
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we'll we'll get into that during the show uh it's been a really difficult
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show uh it's been a really difficult
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show uh it's been a really difficult year and so it's been important for me
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year and so it's been important for me
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year and so it's been important for me to do this show not only for myself
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to do this show not only for myself
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to do this show not only for myself because I need help uh but also to
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because I need help uh but also to
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because I need help uh but also to prepare the younger developers uh
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prepare the younger developers uh
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prepare the younger developers uh including you know the younger
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including you know the younger
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including you know the younger developers I know and even Mentor uh for
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developers I know and even Mentor uh for
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developers I know and even Mentor uh for for being in this career 20 30 years and
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for being in this career 20 30 years and
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for being in this career 20 30 years and so I hope you all get something out of
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so I hope you all get something out of
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so I hope you all get something out of it but like I say all the time you know
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it but like I say all the time you know
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it but like I say all the time you know you'll get more out of the show if
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you'll get more out of the show if
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you'll get more out of the show if you're watching live and you start
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you're watching live and you start
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you're watching live and you start putting in questions now um there are no
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putting in questions now um there are no
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putting in questions now um there are no dumb questions just put them in and I we
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dumb questions just put them in and I we
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dumb questions just put them in and I we we'll get them answered as soon as we
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we'll get them answered as soon as we
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we'll get them answered as soon as we can so like I said I've been reflecting
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can so like I said I've been reflecting
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can so like I said I've been reflecting back on my career uh this summer and uh
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back on my career uh this summer and uh
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back on my career uh this summer and uh recently also saw a tweet about you know
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recently also saw a tweet about you know
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recently also saw a tweet about you know asking you know what what advice would
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asking you know what what advice would
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asking you know what what advice would it older experienced developer give
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it older experienced developer give
6:39
it older experienced developer give younger developers and so that really
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younger developers and so that really
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younger developers and so that really got my brain thinking about you know
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got my brain thinking about you know
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got my brain thinking about you know what advice can I give or you know help
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what advice can I give or you know help
6:47
what advice can I give or you know help other people uh uh maybe not have such a
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other people uh uh maybe not have such a
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other people uh uh maybe not have such a hard time as I'm having right now you
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hard time as I'm having right now you
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hard time as I'm having right now you know because um I for everybody that
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know because um I for everybody that
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know because um I for everybody that follows me uh you probably already know
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follows me uh you probably already know
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follows me uh you probably already know that you know I've
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that you know I've
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that you know I've accomplished quite a bit in in in my
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accomplished quite a bit in in in my
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accomplished quite a bit in in in my career I would say you know I've I've
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career I would say you know I've I've
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career I would say you know I've I've worked at a wide variety of companies uh
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worked at a wide variety of companies uh
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worked at a wide variety of companies uh um throughout my career you know
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um throughout my career you know
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um throughout my career you know full-time uh
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full-time uh
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full-time uh Contracting um um part-time things like
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Contracting um um part-time things like
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Contracting um um part-time things like that um you know I founded the the year
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that um you know I founded the the year
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that um you know I founded the the year I became a a full-time software engineer
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I became a a full-time software engineer
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I became a a full-time software engineer I founded a user group here in San Diego
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I founded a user group here in San Diego
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I founded a user group here in San Diego and ran it for uh most of the uh 20
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and ran it for uh most of the uh 20
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and ran it for uh most of the uh 20 years it was in existence uh I retired
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years it was in existence uh I retired
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years it was in existence uh I retired in uh
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in uh
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in uh 2014 uh yeah 2014 so 10 years ago I
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2014 uh yeah 2014 so 10 years ago I
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2014 uh yeah 2014 so 10 years ago I retired from that group um I've a I've
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retired from that group um I've a I've
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retired from that group um I've a I've authored more books that I can come up
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authored more books that I can come up
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authored more books that I can come up with on top of my head since 97 you know
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with on top of my head since 97 you know
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with on top of my head since 97 you know I've maintained a popular blog uh since
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I've maintained a popular blog uh since
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I've maintained a popular blog uh since 94 and and uh you know a little bit of
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94 and and uh you know a little bit of
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94 and and uh you know a little bit of trivia with that my very very first uh
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trivia with that my very very first uh
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trivia with that my very very first uh uh blog site for software Engineers was
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uh blog site for software Engineers was
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uh blog site for software Engineers was actually
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actually
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actually piggybacked off of uh Carl Franklin's
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piggybacked off of uh Carl Franklin's
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piggybacked off of uh Carl Franklin's website back in '94 so uh thank again
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website back in '94 so uh thank again
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website back in '94 so uh thank again thank you again Carl for supporting me
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thank you again Carl for supporting me
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thank you again Carl for supporting me all these years and being such a good
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all these years and being such a good
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all these years and being such a good friend you know I taught at the
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friend you know I taught at the
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friend you know I taught at the University of California San Diego for
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University of California San Diego for
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University of California San Diego for 18 years and so I spent a lot of time
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18 years and so I spent a lot of time
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18 years and so I spent a lot of time teaching and Advising uh uh the younger
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teaching and Advising uh uh the younger
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teaching and Advising uh uh the younger people and and adults too um you know
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people and and adults too um you know
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people and and adults too um you know this year I G got my 18th uh Microsoft
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this year I G got my 18th uh Microsoft
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this year I G got my 18th uh Microsoft MVP award I'm very very proud of you
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MVP award I'm very very proud of you
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MVP award I'm very very proud of you know I got my very first one in 2006
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know I got my very first one in 2006
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know I got my very first one in 2006 actually a couple days ago I tweeted out
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actually a couple days ago I tweeted out
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actually a couple days ago I tweeted out a a picture of the certificate they used
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a a picture of the certificate they used
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a a picture of the certificate they used to give us back then uh I found it as I
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to give us back then uh I found it as I
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to give us back then uh I found it as I was cleaning stuff
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was cleaning stuff
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was cleaning stuff out um you know I've traveled the world
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out um you know I've traveled the world
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out um you know I've traveled the world you know I've been speaking for 30 years
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you know I've been speaking for 30 years
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you know I've been speaking for 30 years I've been speaking you know the very
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I've been speaking you know the very
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I've been speaking you know the very first year I was a software engineer and
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first year I was a software engineer and
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first year I was a software engineer and you know that and I've written many
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you know that and I've written many
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you know that and I've written many articles of just how much speaking has
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articles of just how much speaking has
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articles of just how much speaking has really really improved my personal and
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really really improved my personal and
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really really improved my personal and and and uh professional career and uh
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and and uh professional career and uh
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and and uh professional career and uh now you know that speaking uh allows me
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now you know that speaking uh allows me
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now you know that speaking uh allows me to travel the country and I tra sorry
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to travel the country and I tra sorry
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to travel the country and I tra sorry travel the country and travel the world
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travel the country and travel the world
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travel the country and travel the world you know uh getting to know other
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you know uh getting to know other
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you know uh getting to know other developers in different countries which
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developers in different countries which
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developers in different countries which is one of my favorite things to do is to
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is one of my favorite things to do is to
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is one of my favorite things to do is to not only help people you know by
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not only help people you know by
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not only help people you know by speaking but also uh going to different
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speaking but also uh going to different
9:18
speaking but also uh going to different places and and seeing how you know they
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places and and seeing how you know they
9:21
places and and seeing how you know they approach software engineering in those
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approach software engineering in those
9:23
approach software engineering in those different countries or even different
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different countries or even different
9:24
different countries or even different cities in in America it's different
9:26
cities in in America it's different
9:26
cities in in America it's different everywhere you go and so I've always
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everywhere you go and so I've always
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everywhere you go and so I've always been really you know curious about that
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been really you know curious about that
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been really you know curious about that um also at you know I worked at a doc
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um also at you know I worked at a doc
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um also at you know I worked at a doc company back in the internet bubble days
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company back in the internet bubble days
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company back in the internet bubble days and and my work there I became a patent
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and and my work there I became a patent
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and and my work there I became a patent inventor so I'm cool I didn't make any
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inventor so I'm cool I didn't make any
9:45
inventor so I'm cool I didn't make any money but you know at least I can put
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money but you know at least I can put
9:47
money but you know at least I can put that in my title um you know I've hosted
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that in my title um you know I've hosted
9:50
that in my title um you know I've hosted this show for Four Seasons now and we
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this show for Four Seasons now and we
9:52
this show for Four Seasons now and we average about you know a quarter million
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average about you know a quarter million
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average about you know a quarter million PE views a year and a lot more I can
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PE views a year and a lot more I can
9:58
PE views a year and a lot more I can keep going you know it's when people ask
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keep going you know it's when people ask
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keep going you know it's when people ask me these things when I in in job
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me these things when I in in job
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me these things when I in in job interviews it's hard for me to not take
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interviews it's hard for me to not take
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interviews it's hard for me to not take a lot of time because i' I I've done a
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a lot of time because i' I I've done a
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a lot of time because i' I I've done a lot in this career and and I hope you
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lot in this career and and I hope you
10:10
lot in this career and and I hope you want to do a lot in your career
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want to do a lot in your career
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want to do a lot in your career especially if you're starting out and so
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especially if you're starting out and so
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especially if you're starting out and so this is what you know uh this show is
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this is what you know uh this show is
10:17
this is what you know uh this show is all about and so I've gained a wealth of
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all about and so I've gained a wealth of
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all about and so I've gained a wealth of knowledge you know during all these
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knowledge you know during all these
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knowledge you know during all these years and I kind of want to share that
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years and I kind of want to share that
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years and I kind of want to share that you know along with my uh guests on the
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you know along with my uh guests on the
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you know along with my uh guests on the show um you know when I started software
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show um you know when I started software
10:29
show um you know when I started software engineering I still remember the reason
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engineering I still remember the reason
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engineering I still remember the reason I live where I do is one of my first
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I live where I do is one of my first
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I live where I do is one of my first software engineering jobs it's just
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software engineering jobs it's just
10:35
software engineering jobs it's just right up the street for me a walking
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right up the street for me a walking
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right up the street for me a walking distance and you know and I remember
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distance and you know and I remember
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distance and you know and I remember sitting there one day and I was looking
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sitting there one day and I was looking
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sitting there one day and I was looking through our local computer magazine when
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through our local computer magazine when
10:44
through our local computer magazine when we had one and the only advice I got you
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we had one and the only advice I got you
10:48
we had one and the only advice I got you when I was a beginner or pretty much my
10:50
when I was a beginner or pretty much my
10:50
when I was a beginner or pretty much my entire career really was I was going
10:52
entire career really was I was going
10:52
entire career really was I was going through the magazine and I saw this
10:54
through the magazine and I saw this
10:54
through the magazine and I saw this article about a salary it was a salary
10:57
article about a salary it was a salary
10:57
article about a salary it was a salary survey and and I noticed on there that
11:00
survey and and I noticed on there that
11:00
survey and and I noticed on there that you know developers once they turn about
11:04
you know developers once they turn about
11:04
you know developers once they turn about 50 years old their salary really takes a
11:07
50 years old their salary really takes a
11:07
50 years old their salary really takes a nose dive and I looked at that and said
11:10
nose dive and I looked at that and said
11:10
nose dive and I looked at that and said uh that's not happening to
11:12
uh that's not happening to
11:12
uh that's not happening to me and so maybe that's why I decided to
11:14
me and so maybe that's why I decided to
11:15
me and so maybe that's why I decided to write so much and speak so much and and
11:17
write so much and speak so much and and
11:17
write so much and speak so much and and do everything I do uh because I wanted
11:20
do everything I do uh because I wanted
11:20
do everything I do uh because I wanted to you know stay to make this a career
11:23
to you know stay to make this a career
11:23
to you know stay to make this a career uh but I didn't want my my salary to go
11:25
uh but I didn't want my my salary to go
11:25
uh but I didn't want my my salary to go down either uh especially with inflation
11:28
down either uh especially with inflation
11:29
down either uh especially with inflation and everything else and I live in
11:30
and everything else and I live in
11:30
and everything else and I live in California which is crazy expensive uh
11:32
California which is crazy expensive uh
11:32
California which is crazy expensive uh to live here um so I really had no
11:36
to live here um so I really had no
11:36
to live here um so I really had no guidance when I started and and
11:38
guidance when I started and and
11:38
guidance when I started and and unfortunately you know I have to be
11:39
unfortunately you know I have to be
11:39
unfortunately you know I have to be honest in this show and and and I didn't
11:42
honest in this show and and and I didn't
11:42
honest in this show and and and I didn't prepare correctly and um and that's why
11:45
prepare correctly and um and that's why
11:45
prepare correctly and um and that's why I'm having a hard time at this stage of
11:47
I'm having a hard time at this stage of
11:48
I'm having a hard time at this stage of my career you know I I can definitely
11:50
my career you know I I can definitely
11:50
my career you know I I can definitely say the first 15 uh years of my career
11:52
say the first 15 uh years of my career
11:52
say the first 15 uh years of my career was much easier than my last 15 I don't
11:55
was much easier than my last 15 I don't
11:55
was much easier than my last 15 I don't know about the other people in in in my
11:57
know about the other people in in in my
11:57
know about the other people in in in my panel but that's the way it's it's been
11:59
panel but that's the way it's it's been
11:59
panel but that's the way it's it's been for me and um so I want to prepare the
12:02
for me and um so I want to prepare the
12:02
for me and um so I want to prepare the younger developers uh or any developer
12:05
younger developers uh or any developer
12:05
younger developers uh or any developer really but especially the younger ones
12:06
really but especially the younger ones
12:06
really but especially the younger ones to start preparing now if you really
12:09
to start preparing now if you really
12:09
to start preparing now if you really love software engineering you really
12:11
love software engineering you really
12:11
love software engineering you really love in being in the tech world you need
12:13
love in being in the tech world you need
12:13
love in being in the tech world you need to prepare I know we don't think about
12:15
to prepare I know we don't think about
12:15
to prepare I know we don't think about things like that you know we we get
12:17
things like that you know we we get
12:17
things like that you know we we get caught up with you know family and life
12:20
caught up with you know family and life
12:20
caught up with you know family and life and and and all those things uh but I'm
12:23
and and and all those things uh but I'm
12:23
and and and all those things uh but I'm here to tell you you have to make a plan
12:25
here to tell you you have to make a plan
12:25
here to tell you you have to make a plan and stick with it or you know you're
12:27
and stick with it or you know you're
12:27
and stick with it or you know you're going to be you're going to be having a
12:29
going to be you're going to be having a
12:29
going to be you're going to be having a harder time like I am right now so so
12:32
harder time like I am right now so so
12:32
harder time like I am right now so so that's really the goal of the show is to
12:34
that's really the goal of the show is to
12:34
that's really the goal of the show is to prepare the next generation of software
12:36
prepare the next generation of software
12:37
prepare the next generation of software engineers and I have different
12:38
engineers and I have different
12:38
engineers and I have different generations of software Engineers uh on
12:41
generations of software Engineers uh on
12:41
generations of software Engineers uh on this show so please please please take
12:43
this show so please please please take
12:43
this show so please please please take it before I introduce them please take
12:45
it before I introduce them please take
12:45
it before I introduce them please take advantage of this wealth of knowledge um
12:48
advantage of this wealth of knowledge um
12:48
advantage of this wealth of knowledge um that's on this show and uh and ask
12:51
that's on this show and uh and ask
12:51
that's on this show and uh and ask questions or you know if you if you
12:54
questions or you know if you if you
12:54
questions or you know if you if you watch this video and you like it please
12:56
watch this video and you like it please
12:56
watch this video and you like it please send it to any developer you know to
12:59
send it to any developer you know to
12:59
send it to any developer you know to help them to and um you know I thought
13:02
help them to and um you know I thought
13:02
help them to and um you know I thought about writing a book about this but
13:04
about writing a book about this but
13:04
about writing a book about this but books don't really sell much so I don't
13:06
books don't really sell much so I don't
13:06
books don't really sell much so I don't know if I'm going to do that but I'd
13:08
know if I'm going to do that but I'd
13:08
know if I'm going to do that but I'd like to because that's kind of my fall
13:10
like to because that's kind of my fall
13:10
like to because that's kind of my fall thing fallback position most of the time
13:13
thing fallback position most of the time
13:13
thing fallback position most of the time all right with that said I hope I
13:15
all right with that said I hope I
13:15
all right with that said I hope I explained why I wanted to do this show
13:17
explained why I wanted to do this show
13:17
explained why I wanted to do this show and like I said I've been excited and
13:19
and like I said I've been excited and
13:19
and like I said I've been excited and really really been looking forward to
13:20
really really been looking forward to
13:20
really really been looking forward to this show for many many many months and
13:23
this show for many many many months and
13:23
this show for many many many months and uh so I'm so glad the day is here and we
13:25
uh so I'm so glad the day is here and we
13:26
uh so I'm so glad the day is here and we get to do the show today so again make
13:29
get to do the show today so again make
13:29
get to do the show today so again make sure you ask questions uh very important
13:32
sure you ask questions uh very important
13:32
sure you ask questions uh very important so I want to have each uh panel uh in
13:36
so I want to have each uh panel uh in
13:36
so I want to have each uh panel uh in each person on the panel introduce
13:38
each person on the panel introduce
13:38
each person on the panel introduce themselves so uh my my longtime friend
13:41
themselves so uh my my longtime friend
13:41
themselves so uh my my longtime friend maybe the person I've know the longest
13:42
maybe the person I've know the longest
13:42
maybe the person I've know the longest on this H panel is Billy
13:45
on this H panel is Billy
13:45
on this H panel is Billy Hollis oh hey there David so you know I
13:48
Hollis oh hey there David so you know I
13:48
Hollis oh hey there David so you know I don't like talking about
13:50
don't like talking about
13:50
don't like talking about myself I really don't um so I'll give
13:53
myself I really don't um so I'll give
13:53
myself I really don't um so I'll give the brief version um started out as
13:55
the brief version um started out as
13:55
the brief version um started out as developer learned at code 1973 on Punch
13:58
developer learned at code 1973 on Punch
13:58
developer learned at code 1973 on Punch Cards
13:59
Cards
13:59
Cards uh I started doing it for money in
14:02
uh I started doing it for money in
14:02
uh I started doing it for money in 1978 went through the PC era when we all
14:05
1978 went through the PC era when we all
14:05
1978 went through the PC era when we all had to figure out how to do things
14:06
had to figure out how to do things
14:06
had to figure out how to do things ourselves uh so did did what we would
14:10
ourselves uh so did did what we would
14:10
ourselves uh so did did what we would today call architecture overall system
14:12
today call architecture overall system
14:12
today call architecture overall system design did a fair amount of that and
14:14
design did a fair amount of that and
14:14
design did a fair amount of that and transitioned in the last 15 years to
14:17
transitioned in the last 15 years to
14:17
transitioned in the last 15 years to more work in the design space design
14:19
more work in the design space design
14:19
more work in the design space design thinking and ux design I actually cared
14:21
thinking and ux design I actually cared
14:21
thinking and ux design I actually cared a lot about that too back in the 80s
14:22
a lot about that too back in the 80s
14:22
a lot about that too back in the 80s and90s I think I was one of the first
14:25
and90s I think I was one of the first
14:25
and90s I think I was one of the first mous driven PC developers in Nashville
14:29
mous driven PC developers in Nashville
14:29
mous driven PC developers in Nashville because I felt like that was that was
14:30
because I felt like that was that was
14:30
because I felt like that was that was something that the users were going to
14:32
something that the users were going to
14:32
something that the users were going to like yeah um so I I I've transitioned
14:35
like yeah um so I I I've transitioned
14:35
like yeah um so I I I've transitioned more to design but I still do coding and
14:38
more to design but I still do coding and
14:38
more to design but I still do coding and such uh because now people care about
14:41
such uh because now people care about
14:41
such uh because now people care about design and they they didn't care about
14:42
design and they they didn't care about
14:42
design and they they didn't care about it before I've done you know lots of
14:44
it before I've done you know lots of
14:44
it before I've done you know lots of books and I speak a lot and some of my
14:47
books and I speak a lot and some of my
14:47
books and I speak a lot and some of my books include the earliest books onnet
14:50
books include the earliest books onnet
14:50
books include the earliest books onnet but it's but you know it's an
14:51
but it's but you know it's an
14:51
but it's but you know it's an interesting thing that the very first
14:52
interesting thing that the very first
14:52
interesting thing that the very first book I wrote was titled it was back in
14:54
book I wrote was titled it was back in
14:54
book I wrote was titled it was back in the VB6 era now was titled design
14:57
the VB6 era now was titled design
14:57
the VB6 era now was titled design specification and object
14:59
specification and object
14:59
specification and object in VB6 which even though it was a
15:02
in VB6 which even though it was a
15:02
in VB6 which even though it was a technical book at that time I was
15:04
technical book at that time I was
15:04
technical book at that time I was already sort of in in that space of
15:06
already sort of in in that space of
15:07
already sort of in in that space of trying to apply design to get better
15:09
trying to apply design to get better
15:09
trying to apply design to get better software yeah and and you know I've
15:12
software yeah and and you know I've
15:12
software yeah and and you know I've always looked up to your uh advice on um
15:17
always looked up to your uh advice on um
15:17
always looked up to your uh advice on um user experience design you know I think
15:19
user experience design you know I think
15:19
user experience design you know I think you're one of the best voices in that in
15:22
you're one of the best voices in that in
15:22
you're one of the best voices in that in that in that area and I've always you
15:25
that in that area and I've always you
15:25
that in that area and I've always you know for me personally I've always
15:27
know for me personally I've always
15:28
know for me personally I've always valued your honest direct opinions about
15:32
valued your honest direct opinions about
15:32
valued your honest direct opinions about uh user interface design and things like
15:34
uh user interface design and things like
15:34
uh user interface design and things like that well thank you I appreciate that
15:36
that well thank you I appreciate that
15:36
that well thank you I appreciate that and and certainly i' I thought about it
15:38
and and certainly i' I thought about it
15:38
and and certainly i' I thought about it more more and longer I think than most
15:39
more more and longer I think than most
15:40
more more and longer I think than most people in the space so that that gives
15:41
people in the space so that that gives
15:41
people in the space so that that gives me some insight plus I I actually did a
15:45
me some insight plus I I actually did a
15:45
me some insight plus I I actually did a lot of science as a young adult I went
15:47
lot of science as a young adult I went
15:47
lot of science as a young adult I went to medical school for a year before
15:48
to medical school for a year before
15:48
to medical school for a year before deciding not to be a doctor which a lot
15:51
deciding not to be a doctor which a lot
15:51
deciding not to be a doctor which a lot of people don't know about me and it
15:52
of people don't know about me and it
15:52
of people don't know about me and it turns out that a lot of that science of
15:54
turns out that a lot of that science of
15:54
turns out that a lot of that science of how the brain works and how the eyes
15:55
how the brain works and how the eyes
15:55
how the brain works and how the eyes work is very very relevant to design so
15:59
work is very very relevant to design so
15:59
work is very very relevant to design so I tend to see things that maybe other
16:01
I tend to see things that maybe other
16:01
I tend to see things that maybe other people without that background don't see
16:04
people without that background don't see
16:04
people without that background don't see yeah yeah well great well thank you for
16:06
yeah yeah well great well thank you for
16:06
yeah yeah well great well thank you for being on the show I can't wait to get uh
16:08
being on the show I can't wait to get uh
16:09
being on the show I can't wait to get uh the panel everybody and we can start
16:11
the panel everybody and we can start
16:11
the panel everybody and we can start sharing advice so the next person um is
16:14
sharing advice so the next person um is
16:14
sharing advice so the next person um is David
16:17
Neil oh
16:20
Neil oh
16:20
Neil oh hey how's it going uh great glad to be
16:24
hey how's it going uh great glad to be
16:24
hey how's it going uh great glad to be here and I first of all I read Billy
16:28
here and I first of all I read Billy
16:28
here and I first of all I read Billy holl's book in on VB6 back in the day on
16:31
holl's book in on VB6 back in the day on
16:31
holl's book in on VB6 back in the day on design patterns and uh when Billy was at
16:34
design patterns and uh when Billy was at
16:34
design patterns and uh when Billy was at Oakwood I remember um really U really
16:39
Oakwood I remember um really U really
16:39
Oakwood I remember um really U really digging that book it was it helped me I
16:42
digging that book it was it helped me I
16:42
digging that book it was it helped me I I was a little bit younger in my career
16:44
I was a little bit younger in my career
16:44
I was a little bit younger in my career at that point um so I started in the
16:47
at that point um so I started in the
16:47
at that point um so I started in the early
16:48
early
16:48
early 90s and was you know jumped on when the
16:52
90s and was you know jumped on when the
16:52
90s and was you know jumped on when the internet started to take off and I've
16:55
internet started to take off and I've
16:55
internet started to take off and I've pretty much focused on building web
16:56
pretty much focused on building web
16:56
pretty much focused on building web applications since the uh midnight 90s
16:59
applications since the uh midnight 90s
16:59
applications since the uh midnight 90s and so um let's see yeah my my uh
17:04
and so um let's see yeah my my uh
17:04
and so um let's see yeah my my uh Journey started with uh basic and
17:08
Journey started with uh basic and
17:08
Journey started with uh basic and Pascal um back in the day and
17:12
Pascal um back in the day and
17:12
Pascal um back in the day and um did a lot of a what we now refer to
17:15
um did a lot of a what we now refer to
17:15
um did a lot of a what we now refer to as classic
17:17
as classic
17:17
as classic ASP and um then um you know doing a lot
17:20
ASP and um then um you know doing a lot
17:20
ASP and um then um you know doing a lot of VB6 or starting with vb2 and three I
17:25
of VB6 or starting with vb2 and three I
17:25
of VB6 or starting with vb2 and three I think uh built a lot of applications
17:29
think uh built a lot of applications
17:29
think uh built a lot of applications and um yeah spent a lot of time in the
17:32
and um yeah spent a lot of time in the
17:32
and um yeah spent a lot of time in the net World um C SQL Server asp.net and
17:38
net World um C SQL Server asp.net and
17:38
net World um C SQL Server asp.net and then about 10 years ago I kind of jumped
17:42
then about 10 years ago I kind of jumped
17:42
then about 10 years ago I kind of jumped from uh more into open source and
17:45
from uh more into open source and
17:45
from uh more into open source and started to use node.js and more
17:49
started to use node.js and more
17:49
started to use node.js and more JavaScript for better or worse because
17:51
JavaScript for better or worse because
17:51
JavaScript for better or worse because that is the internet right so why not uh
17:54
that is the internet right so why not uh
17:54
that is the internet right so why not uh why not embrace it in all of its quirks
17:57
why not embrace it in all of its quirks
17:57
why not embrace it in all of its quirks so I've been an advocate for software
18:00
so I've been an advocate for software
18:01
so I've been an advocate for software Developers for a long time I've been
18:02
Developers for a long time I've been
18:02
Developers for a long time I've been involved in the community I have helped
18:05
involved in the community I have helped
18:05
involved in the community I have helped run um meet up in Nashville where I used
18:08
run um meet up in Nashville where I used
18:08
run um meet up in Nashville where I used to live
18:10
to live
18:10
to live um and um I spent a lot of time going to
18:14
um and um I spent a lot of time going to
18:14
um and um I spent a lot of time going to conferences and meetups and meeting
18:17
conferences and meetups and meeting
18:17
conferences and meetups and meeting other software developers because my
18:19
other software developers because my
18:19
other software developers because my mission in life in this stage of my
18:21
mission in life in this stage of my
18:21
mission in life in this stage of my career for the last 10 years um has been
18:25
career for the last 10 years um has been
18:25
career for the last 10 years um has been pretty much to help other folks in
18:28
pretty much to help other folks in
18:28
pretty much to help other folks in technology be more
18:30
technology be more
18:30
technology be more awesome that's that's usually how I
18:33
awesome that's that's usually how I
18:33
awesome that's that's usually how I phrase it but uh I'm wanting to give
18:36
phrase it but uh I'm wanting to give
18:36
phrase it but uh I'm wanting to give back and uh yeah and for me personally
18:39
back and uh yeah and for me personally
18:39
back and uh yeah and for me personally this past year year and a half has been
18:41
this past year year and a half has been
18:41
this past year year and a half has been pretty challenging the most
18:43
pretty challenging the most
18:43
pretty challenging the most challenging uh time in my
18:46
challenging uh time in my
18:46
challenging uh time in my career yeah me too I started with vb2
18:50
career yeah me too I started with vb2
18:50
career yeah me too I started with vb2 and uh and and you're also a really
18:53
and uh and and you're also a really
18:54
and uh and and you're also a really really good illustrator too and have
18:55
really good illustrator too and have
18:55
really good illustrator too and have your own book on illustrations right I I
18:59
your own book on illustrations right I I
18:59
your own book on illustrations right I I have written a book too but it's uh it
19:01
have written a book too but it's uh it
19:01
have written a book too but it's uh it was not the book that I expected to
19:03
was not the book that I expected to
19:03
was not the book that I expected to write it's a illustrated book of dad
19:06
write it's a illustrated book of dad
19:06
write it's a illustrated book of dad jokes but I I've contributed to other
19:08
jokes but I I've contributed to other
19:08
jokes but I I've contributed to other books too and and Technical reviews and
19:11
books too and and Technical reviews and
19:11
books too and and Technical reviews and and things like that but yeah I I
19:13
and things like that but yeah I I
19:13
and things like that but yeah I I started as a hobby started doing
19:16
started as a hobby started doing
19:16
started as a hobby started doing illustration work um six or seven years
19:18
illustration work um six or seven years
19:18
illustration work um six or seven years ago and used it as a and as my
19:21
ago and used it as a and as my
19:21
ago and used it as a and as my presentations and everything and just
19:23
presentations and everything and just
19:23
presentations and everything and just fell in love with it and now I I do
19:26
fell in love with it and now I I do
19:26
fell in love with it and now I I do almost as much illustration work as I do
19:29
almost as much illustration work as I do
19:29
almost as much illustration work as I do programming yeah that's cool I love
19:31
programming yeah that's cool I love
19:31
programming yeah that's cool I love doing that stuff you know you you did a
19:33
doing that stuff you know you you did a
19:33
doing that stuff you know you you did a drawing of me that I use you know I I
19:35
drawing of me that I use you know I I
19:35
drawing of me that I use you know I I changed my uh uh uh Twitter profile too
19:39
changed my uh uh uh Twitter profile too
19:39
changed my uh uh uh Twitter profile too every once in a while so if you see a
19:41
every once in a while so if you see a
19:41
every once in a while so if you see a cartoonist drawing of me that's David's
19:44
cartoonist drawing of me that's David's
19:44
cartoonist drawing of me that's David's that's David's
19:45
that's David's
19:45
that's David's drawing okay uh next is Jared Parsons
19:48
drawing okay uh next is Jared Parsons
19:48
drawing okay uh next is Jared Parsons from
19:53
Microsoft Jared is Jared
19:56
Microsoft Jared is Jared
19:56
Microsoft Jared is Jared there there we go there he is there we
19:58
there there we go there he is there we
19:58
there there we go there he is there we go
19:59
go
19:59
go hey hey I'm I'm Jared Parsons uh I work
20:03
hey hey I'm I'm Jared Parsons uh I work
20:03
hey hey I'm I'm Jared Parsons uh I work on the uh C compiler team at Microsoft
20:07
on the uh C compiler team at Microsoft
20:07
on the uh C compiler team at Microsoft and in terms of been in career I I
20:08
and in terms of been in career I I
20:08
and in terms of been in career I I recently celebrated my 20th year at
20:11
recently celebrated my 20th year at
20:11
recently celebrated my 20th year at Microsoft um kind of coming up in the
20:14
Microsoft um kind of coming up in the
20:14
Microsoft um kind of coming up in the industry I was actually uh in college I
20:17
industry I was actually uh in college I
20:17
industry I was actually uh in college I was a very big kind of java person and I
20:19
was a very big kind of java person and I
20:19
was a very big kind of java person and I spent a ton of time like writing and
20:21
spent a ton of time like writing and
20:21
spent a ton of time like writing and using Java in my classes teaching it um
20:24
using Java in my classes teaching it um
20:24
using Java in my classes teaching it um at school and I got this uh kind of
20:28
at school and I got this uh kind of
20:28
at school and I got this uh kind of undergrad research job with the
20:30
undergrad research job with the
20:31
undergrad research job with the professor and she's like hey you're G to
20:32
professor and she's like hey you're G to
20:32
professor and she's like hey you're G to learn this new thing it's called
20:34
learn this new thing it's called
20:34
learn this new thing it's called c um and you're going to be doing that
20:36
c um and you're going to be doing that
20:36
c um and you're going to be doing that as part of your research project I'm
20:37
as part of your research project I'm
20:37
as part of your research project I'm like okay uh and then a couple years
20:40
like okay uh and then a couple years
20:40
like okay uh and then a couple years later I interned at Microsoft um then I
20:43
later I interned at Microsoft um then I
20:43
later I interned at Microsoft um then I ended up joining Microsoft and about a
20:45
ended up joining Microsoft and about a
20:45
ended up joining Microsoft and about a year or two into uh my career at
20:47
year or two into uh my career at
20:47
year or two into uh my career at Microsoft I moved on to the VB compiler
20:50
Microsoft I moved on to the VB compiler
20:50
Microsoft I moved on to the VB compiler team and pretty much since then I've
20:52
team and pretty much since then I've
20:52
team and pretty much since then I've been in the net space in one form or the
20:55
been in the net space in one form or the
20:55
been in the net space in one form or the other I've worked on the VB compiler the
20:57
other I've worked on the VB compiler the
20:57
other I've worked on the VB compiler the VB ID e where I met Dustin who we're
21:00
VB ID e where I met Dustin who we're
21:00
VB ID e where I met Dustin who we're going to um chat with in a bit here uh
21:03
going to um chat with in a bit here uh
21:03
going to um chat with in a bit here uh spent about five six years working in
21:05
spent about five six years working in
21:06
spent about five six years working in kind of a more of a research capacity on
21:09
kind of a more of a research capacity on
21:09
kind of a more of a research capacity on system C trying to take C and apply it
21:12
system C trying to take C and apply it
21:12
system C trying to take C and apply it to like can you write an operating
21:14
to like can you write an operating
21:14
to like can you write an operating system with it and I've been about
21:18
system with it and I've been about
21:18
system with it and I've been about almost 10 years ago rejoined the net
21:20
almost 10 years ago rejoined the net
21:20
almost 10 years ago rejoined the net team proper and I've been working um on
21:23
team proper and I've been working um on
21:23
team proper and I've been working um on net as we moved the net core and started
21:25
net as we moved the net core and started
21:25
net as we moved the net core and started taking net from just this Windows kind
21:28
taking net from just this Windows kind
21:28
taking net from just this Windows kind of environment to this more x copy
21:30
of environment to this more x copy
21:30
of environment to this more x copy Deployable thing that you can put on
21:32
Deployable thing that you can put on
21:32
Deployable thing that you can put on Linux Mac and windows so it's been a lot
21:34
Linux Mac and windows so it's been a lot
21:35
Linux Mac and windows so it's been a lot of fun yeah and you've been on the show
21:37
of fun yeah and you've been on the show
21:37
of fun yeah and you've been on the show a few times and and I I really like you
21:39
a few times and and I I really like you
21:39
a few times and and I I really like you being on the show you're you know so
21:41
being on the show you're you know so
21:41
being on the show you're you know so much about you you're the most
21:43
much about you you're the most
21:43
much about you you're the most knowledgeable person about the compiler
21:45
knowledgeable person about the compiler
21:45
knowledgeable person about the compiler that I know at least and uh and I I I've
21:49
that I know at least and uh and I I I've
21:49
that I know at least and uh and I I I've always really liked you being on the
21:50
always really liked you being on the
21:50
always really liked you being on the show and sharing your experience and
21:52
show and sharing your experience and
21:52
show and sharing your experience and things yeah awesome yeah really enjoyed
21:54
things yeah awesome yeah really enjoyed
21:54
things yeah awesome yeah really enjoyed coming and talking about it and so the
21:56
coming and talking about it and so the
21:56
coming and talking about it and so the first time on the show is Dustin
22:01
Campbell hey hey glad to be here thank
22:04
Campbell hey hey glad to be here thank
22:04
Campbell hey hey glad to be here thank you for uh for for bringing me
22:07
you for uh for for bringing me
22:07
you for uh for for bringing me here how's it going it's going really
22:10
here how's it going it's going really
22:10
here how's it going it's going really well it's going really well um in fact
22:12
well it's going really well um in fact
22:12
well it's going really well um in fact it's it's kind of funny right because
22:14
it's it's kind of funny right because
22:14
it's it's kind of funny right because Jared you know mentioned that like yeah
22:16
Jared you know mentioned that like yeah
22:16
Jared you know mentioned that like yeah we met you know when I joined Microsoft
22:19
we met you know when I joined Microsoft
22:19
we met you know when I joined Microsoft um you know as a as a programmer I would
22:23
um you know as a as a programmer I would
22:23
um you know as a as a programmer I would say I started by getting in trouble in
22:25
say I started by getting in trouble in
22:25
say I started by getting in trouble in high school writing basic programs in
22:27
high school writing basic programs in
22:27
high school writing basic programs in class when I shouldn't have been on
22:29
class when I shouldn't have been on
22:29
class when I shouldn't have been on loose leaf notebook paper cuz you know
22:32
loose leaf notebook paper cuz you know
22:32
loose leaf notebook paper cuz you know as a kid my brain just works that
22:34
as a kid my brain just works that
22:34
as a kid my brain just works that systems fascinated me so I've remarked
22:37
systems fascinated me so I've remarked
22:37
systems fascinated me so I've remarked that like in whatever language class I
22:39
that like in whatever language class I
22:39
that like in whatever language class I was taking doesn't matter if it was
22:40
was taking doesn't matter if it was
22:40
was taking doesn't matter if it was English or or something else I would get
22:43
English or or something else I would get
22:43
English or or something else I would get in big trouble um not paying any
22:45
in big trouble um not paying any
22:45
in big trouble um not paying any attention I got straight D's in Spanish
22:47
attention I got straight D's in Spanish
22:47
attention I got straight D's in Spanish writing guitar scales um and so I had
22:50
writing guitar scales um and so I had
22:50
writing guitar scales um and so I had kind of these two you know kind of
22:53
kind of these two you know kind of
22:53
kind of these two you know kind of dueling things in my brain I really
22:55
dueling things in my brain I really
22:55
dueling things in my brain I really loved playing guitar and uh I was you
22:58
loved playing guitar and uh I was you
22:58
loved playing guitar and uh I was you know a hot shot rock guitarist you know
23:00
know a hot shot rock guitarist you know
23:00
know a hot shot rock guitarist you know 17 years old in you know the early 90s
23:04
17 years old in you know the early 90s
23:04
17 years old in you know the early 90s late 80s and uh and then I also was kind
23:08
late 80s and uh and then I also was kind
23:08
late 80s and uh and then I also was kind of learning this programming thing I was
23:11
of learning this programming thing I was
23:11
of learning this programming thing I was fascinated by you know Z8 assembler I
23:14
fascinated by you know Z8 assembler I
23:14
fascinated by you know Z8 assembler I was fascinated by whatever I could I was
23:16
was fascinated by whatever I could I was
23:16
was fascinated by whatever I could I was just fascinated by just the logic of
23:18
just fascinated by just the logic of
23:18
just fascinated by just the logic of that stuff and so I actually went on to
23:21
that stuff and so I actually went on to
23:21
that stuff and so I actually went on to uh study jazz guitar I have a jazz
23:24
uh study jazz guitar I have a jazz
23:24
uh study jazz guitar I have a jazz guitar performance degree which has done
23:27
guitar performance degree which has done
23:27
guitar performance degree which has done a lot for me I yes um that's that was
23:30
a lot for me I yes um that's that was
23:30
a lot for me I yes um that's that was sarcastic I I'm not I'm not playing jazz
23:32
sarcastic I I'm not I'm not playing jazz
23:32
sarcastic I I'm not I'm not playing jazz guitar as much as I uh as as my my
23:34
guitar as much as I uh as as my my
23:34
guitar as much as I uh as as my my degree would have had me do but um you
23:37
degree would have had me do but um you
23:37
degree would have had me do but um you know that helped me learn to learn even
23:40
know that helped me learn to learn even
23:40
know that helped me learn to learn even more right and so uh I wound up you know
23:44
more right and so uh I wound up you know
23:44
more right and so uh I wound up you know kind of getting again getting fascinated
23:47
kind of getting again getting fascinated
23:47
kind of getting again getting fascinated um by things that helped me write code
23:51
um by things that helped me write code
23:51
um by things that helped me write code right like productivity stuff uh things
23:53
right like productivity stuff uh things
23:53
right like productivity stuff uh things that just made me go faster I um wound
23:56
that just made me go faster I um wound
23:57
that just made me go faster I um wound up at the
23:59
up at the
23:59
up at the uh as a as a deli programmer at the time
24:01
uh as a as a deli programmer at the time
24:01
uh as a as a deli programmer at the time I wrote Visual Basic uh and starting in
24:03
I wrote Visual Basic uh and starting in
24:03
I wrote Visual Basic uh and starting in vb5 and then on VB6 and then I I moved
24:06
vb5 and then on VB6 and then I I moved
24:06
vb5 and then on VB6 and then I I moved on to Deli um and wound up at uh the
24:10
on to Deli um and wound up at uh the
24:10
on to Deli um and wound up at uh the worst name conference that's ever
24:12
worst name conference that's ever
24:12
worst name conference that's ever existed the Borland conference which was
24:13
existed the Borland conference which was
24:13
existed the Borland conference which was called Boron um in
24:16
called Boron um in
24:16
called Boron um in 2001 yeah and uh and wound up working on
24:21
2001 yeah and uh and wound up working on
24:21
2001 yeah and uh and wound up working on uh meeting you know a guy there who uh
24:24
uh meeting you know a guy there who uh
24:24
uh meeting you know a guy there who uh some of you guys probably know Mark
24:26
some of you guys probably know Mark
24:26
some of you guys probably know Mark Miller right ended up working with him
24:27
Miller right ended up working with him
24:27
Miller right ended up working with him on uh productivity tools and I decid
24:30
on uh productivity tools and I decid
24:30
on uh productivity tools and I decid that's what I really wanted to do and
24:31
that's what I really wanted to do and
24:31
that's what I really wanted to do and there's always kind of been a space for
24:33
there's always kind of been a space for
24:33
there's always kind of been a space for me carved out in this in like you know
24:36
me carved out in this in like you know
24:36
me carved out in this in like you know IDE work compiler work whatever um and
24:39
IDE work compiler work whatever um and
24:39
IDE work compiler work whatever um and so um I worked there I worked on on on
24:43
so um I worked there I worked on on on
24:43
so um I worked there I worked on on on those tools for a while code Rush um I
24:45
those tools for a while code Rush um I
24:45
those tools for a while code Rush um I worked on I worked closely with
24:47
worked on I worked closely with
24:47
worked on I worked closely with Microsoft as a partner and then joined
24:51
Microsoft as a partner and then joined
24:51
Microsoft as a partner and then joined Microsoft in 2008 it's been 16 years now
24:55
Microsoft in 2008 it's been 16 years now
24:55
Microsoft in 2008 it's been 16 years now wow I remember I I joined as a program
24:57
wow I remember I I joined as a program
24:58
wow I remember I I joined as a program manager and I was um I didn't know what
25:00
manager and I was um I didn't know what
25:00
manager and I was um I didn't know what I was doing uh but I but I was
25:04
I was doing uh but I but I was
25:04
I was doing uh but I but I was introduced to my current the current
25:07
introduced to my current the current
25:07
introduced to my current the current acting developer lead on the VB uh IDE
25:10
acting developer lead on the VB uh IDE
25:10
acting developer lead on the VB uh IDE Jared Parsons um and we came from right
25:13
Jared Parsons um and we came from right
25:13
Jared Parsons um and we came from right and uh and so yeah it's kind of weird
25:15
and uh and so yeah it's kind of weird
25:15
and uh and so yeah it's kind of weird I'm like oh that's nice I'm glad Jared's
25:17
I'm like oh that's nice I'm glad Jared's
25:17
I'm like oh that's nice I'm glad Jared's on this um so like that was and now over
25:22
on this um so like that was and now over
25:22
on this um so like that was and now over the years I've continued to work on just
25:24
the years I've continued to work on just
25:24
the years I've continued to work on just productivity tools compilers I was there
25:26
productivity tools compilers I was there
25:26
productivity tools compilers I was there when uh we kicked off the rosin project
25:29
when uh we kicked off the rosin project
25:29
when uh we kicked off the rosin project and worked as uh worked on the ID
25:31
and worked as uh worked on the ID
25:31
and worked as uh worked on the ID tooling for that and help design that
25:34
tooling for that and help design that
25:34
tooling for that and help design that um I've worked on I help built the
25:37
um I've worked on I help built the
25:37
um I've worked on I help built the helped build the original C for visual
25:39
helped build the original C for visual
25:39
helped build the original C for visual studio code extension I've done all
25:41
studio code extension I've done all
25:41
studio code extension I've done all those kinds of things and then nowadays
25:44
those kinds of things and then nowadays
25:44
those kinds of things and then nowadays I get to continue working with Jared um
25:46
I get to continue working with Jared um
25:46
I get to continue working with Jared um you know and uh and we're working on a
25:49
you know and uh and we're working on a
25:49
you know and uh and we're working on a number of things together uh right now
25:51
number of things together uh right now
25:51
number of things together uh right now I'm focused on trying to make Razer uh
25:53
I'm focused on trying to make Razer uh
25:53
I'm focused on trying to make Razer uh development really great so cool cool
25:56
development really great so cool cool
25:56
development really great so cool cool yeah awesome well thank you for being
25:58
yeah awesome well thank you for being
25:58
yeah awesome well thank you for being here and last but not least is Sean
26:00
here and last but not least is Sean
26:00
here and last but not least is Sean Wilder M I knew I was going to pronounce
26:03
Wilder M I knew I was going to pronounce
26:03
Wilder M I knew I was going to pronounce that wrong either way either way sorry
26:06
that wrong either way either way sorry
26:06
that wrong either way either way sorry about this when people ask me how to
26:07
about this when people ask me how to
26:07
about this when people ask me how to pronounce my last name I say
26:09
pronounce my last name I say
26:09
pronounce my last name I say Sean it's just easier it's just easier
26:14
Sean it's just easier it's just easier
26:14
Sean it's just easier it's just easier uh thanks for having me on I really
26:16
uh thanks for having me on I really
26:16
uh thanks for having me on I really appreciate it uh this is I'm a bit
26:18
appreciate it uh this is I'm a bit
26:18
appreciate it uh this is I'm a bit humbled by the um cast of characters
26:21
humbled by the um cast of characters
26:21
humbled by the um cast of characters that you've thrown me in with um I have
26:24
that you've thrown me in with um I have
26:24
that you've thrown me in with um I have uh this is my 34th year doing software
26:27
uh this is my 34th year doing software
26:27
uh this is my 34th year doing software development
26:28
development
26:28
development um so I'm uh very much in David's Camp
26:32
um so I'm uh very much in David's Camp
26:32
um so I'm uh very much in David's Camp of kind of figuring it out but uh you
26:36
of kind of figuring it out but uh you
26:36
of kind of figuring it out but uh you know through the years I guess I'll and
26:39
know through the years I guess I'll and
26:39
know through the years I guess I'll and I so want to get into the advice and uh
26:41
I so want to get into the advice and uh
26:41
I so want to get into the advice and uh I'm going to try to preempt that by just
26:43
I'm going to try to preempt that by just
26:43
I'm going to try to preempt that by just telling you sort of my career I dropped
26:44
telling you sort of my career I dropped
26:44
telling you sort of my career I dropped out of uh High School to start
26:47
out of uh High School to start
26:47
out of uh High School to start programming um uh uh S100 systems which
26:53
programming um uh uh S100 systems which
26:53
programming um uh uh S100 systems which uh CPM and mpm back in the day uh that
26:57
uh CPM and mpm back in the day uh that
26:57
uh CPM and mpm back in the day uh that was after I got my uh Vic 20 and then
26:59
was after I got my uh Vic 20 and then
26:59
was after I got my uh Vic 20 and then eventually a commer 64 where I learned
27:02
eventually a commer 64 where I learned
27:02
eventually a commer 64 where I learned basic uh and had to um um uh copy games
27:07
basic uh and had to um um uh copy games
27:07
basic uh and had to um um uh copy games I also learned a lot about copying games
27:10
I also learned a lot about copying games
27:10
I also learned a lot about copying games from my friends back then uh and you
27:14
from my friends back then uh and you
27:14
from my friends back then uh and you know I didn't have a good plan uh so I I
27:19
know I didn't have a good plan uh so I I
27:19
know I didn't have a good plan uh so I I spent probably the
27:20
spent probably the
27:20
spent probably the first um many years uh going from sort
27:24
first um many years uh going from sort
27:24
first um many years uh going from sort of job to job it looked like I had been
27:26
of job to job it looked like I had been
27:27
of job to job it looked like I had been a contractor the first
27:28
a contractor the first
27:28
a contractor the first 15 years of my career because once I got
27:31
15 years of my career because once I got
27:31
15 years of my career because once I got bored at a company I would move on to
27:33
bored at a company I would move on to
27:33
bored at a company I would move on to try to find something more interesting I
27:36
try to find something more interesting I
27:36
try to find something more interesting I get bored very easily and um that
27:39
get bored very easily and um that
27:39
get bored very easily and um that doesn't make for a great employee
27:42
doesn't make for a great employee
27:42
doesn't make for a great employee frankly uh just just my experience with
27:44
frankly uh just just my experience with
27:44
frankly uh just just my experience with it uh I my career has really taken uh
27:48
it uh I my career has really taken uh
27:48
it uh I my career has really taken uh has really come in chapters of about 15
27:51
has really come in chapters of about 15
27:51
has really come in chapters of about 15 years uh first 15 I was sort of um I had
27:55
years uh first 15 I was sort of um I had
27:55
years uh first 15 I was sort of um I had specialized in learning the language
27:57
specialized in learning the language
27:57
specialized in learning the language that no one else world was using
27:59
that no one else world was using
27:59
that no one else world was using figuring how to do uh forms over data in
28:02
figuring how to do uh forms over data in
28:02
figuring how to do uh forms over data in it and then moving on to something else
28:04
it and then moving on to something else
28:04
it and then moving on to something else so I've got a lot of esoteric languages
28:08
so I've got a lot of esoteric languages
28:08
so I've got a lot of esoteric languages like U um visual objects if anyone
28:11
like U um visual objects if anyone
28:11
like U um visual objects if anyone remembers that and I did a lot of
28:13
remembers that and I did a lot of
28:13
remembers that and I did a lot of clipper back in the day and um um put
28:16
clipper back in the day and um um put
28:16
clipper back in the day and um um put myself in Deli dely whatever the right
28:19
myself in Deli dely whatever the right
28:19
myself in Deli dely whatever the right pronunciation is Dustin I don't know
28:22
pronunciation is Dustin I don't know
28:22
pronunciation is Dustin I don't know anymore um and then I got into to C for
28:25
anymore um and then I got into to C for
28:25
anymore um and then I got into to C for a long time I was doing C on uh
28:28
a long time I was doing C on uh
28:28
a long time I was doing C on uh Windows 31 just sort of set the scale
28:32
Windows 31 just sort of set the scale
28:32
Windows 31 just sort of set the scale the period I was doing it and uh uh be
28:36
the period I was doing it and uh uh be
28:36
the period I was doing it and uh uh be became enamored with uhet um right after
28:40
became enamored with uhet um right after
28:40
became enamored with uhet um right after 911 frankly it became sort of an
28:42
911 frankly it became sort of an
28:42
911 frankly it became sort of an obsession of mine to keep my mind away
28:44
obsession of mine to keep my mind away
28:44
obsession of mine to keep my mind away from the other things that were
28:46
from the other things that were
28:46
from the other things that were happening and uh I've been an MVP since
28:49
happening and uh I've been an MVP since
28:49
happening and uh I've been an MVP since 2002 um and uh I'm not sure why they
28:53
2002 um and uh I'm not sure why they
28:53
2002 um and uh I'm not sure why they keep on giving it to me but I keep on
28:55
keep on giving it to me but I keep on
28:55
keep on giving it to me but I keep on doing it what I realized
28:58
doing it what I realized
28:58
doing it what I realized uh you know from my early career to my
29:00
uh you know from my early career to my
29:00
uh you know from my early career to my late career that what I was good at was
29:02
late career that what I was good at was
29:02
late career that what I was good at was figuring out and investigating hard
29:05
figuring out and investigating hard
29:05
figuring out and investigating hard things and being able to explain it to
29:07
things and being able to explain it to
29:07
things and being able to explain it to people and so I sort of backed myself
29:09
people and so I sort of backed myself
29:09
people and so I sort of backed myself into a career where I've done most of
29:11
into a career where I've done most of
29:11
into a career where I've done most of the last 15 years has been trading uh I
29:14
the last 15 years has been trading uh I
29:14
the last 15 years has been trading uh I have a bunch of courses on plural site I
29:16
have a bunch of courses on plural site I
29:16
have a bunch of courses on plural site I do private
29:17
do private
29:17
do private training YouTube channel all the things
29:19
training YouTube channel all the things
29:19
training YouTube channel all the things that you would expect for someone who
29:21
that you would expect for someone who
29:21
that you would expect for someone who likes teaching so uh uh without that
29:25
likes teaching so uh uh without that
29:25
likes teaching so uh uh without that college degree they they were asked me
29:27
college degree they they were asked me
29:27
college degree they they were asked me to teach at the college
29:28
to teach at the college
29:28
to teach at the college so yeah it it's it's certainly one of
29:31
so yeah it it's it's certainly one of
29:31
so yeah it it's it's certainly one of those you know I I'm proud of a lot of
29:33
those you know I I'm proud of a lot of
29:33
those you know I I'm proud of a lot of the things the books I've written uh n
29:36
the things the books I've written uh n
29:36
the things the books I've written uh n none of them ever sold well enough but
29:38
none of them ever sold well enough but
29:38
none of them ever sold well enough but they helped me really understand how
29:41
they helped me really understand how
29:41
they helped me really understand how certain Technologies worked it forced me
29:43
certain Technologies worked it forced me
29:43
certain Technologies worked it forced me to to uh look deeper and I I've been
29:47
to to uh look deeper and I I've been
29:47
to to uh look deeper and I I've been mostly a specialist in forms over data
29:50
mostly a specialist in forms over data
29:50
mostly a specialist in forms over data data backends uh you know my first real
29:54
data backends uh you know my first real
29:54
data backends uh you know my first real um name uh that I had for my original
29:57
um name uh that I had for my original
29:57
um name uh that I had for my original blog was the Ado guy not the ado.net guy
30:00
blog was the Ado guy not the ado.net guy
30:00
blog was the Ado guy not the ado.net guy but the Ado guy um and uh I've
30:04
but the Ado guy um and uh I've
30:04
but the Ado guy um and uh I've maintained that blog since then I think
30:07
maintained that blog since then I think
30:07
maintained that blog since then I think that's 25 years old 22 years old
30:10
that's 25 years old 22 years old
30:10
that's 25 years old 22 years old something like that so you know that's I
30:13
something like that so you know that's I
30:13
something like that so you know that's I think I think that's enough about me but
30:16
think I think that's enough about me but
30:16
think I think that's enough about me but what about
30:17
what about
30:17
what about me it's all about me right um well again
30:22
me it's all about me right um well again
30:22
me it's all about me right um well again thanks everybody for being on the show
30:24
thanks everybody for being on the show
30:24
thanks everybody for being on the show if if you could mute your your mic it if
30:28
if if you could mute your your mic it if
30:28
if if you could mute your your mic it if you're typing uh that might help out a
30:30
you're typing uh that might help out a
30:30
you're typing uh that might help out a little bit I know Simon's been saying
30:33
little bit I know Simon's been saying
30:33
little bit I know Simon's been saying something about it
30:35
something about it
30:35
something about it um but uh Ado azer devop
30:41
um but uh Ado azer devop
30:41
um but uh Ado azer devop yeah uh I I I was going to say well I'm
30:45
yeah uh I I I was going to say well I'm
30:45
yeah uh I I I was going to say well I'm GNA say it now a visual
30:47
GNA say it now a visual
30:47
GNA say it now a visual interdev oh yeah version two to six
30:51
interdev oh yeah version two to six
30:51
interdev oh yeah version two to six right yeah that was our first uh you
30:54
right yeah that was our first uh you
30:54
right yeah that was our first uh you know asp.net uh IDE and and we all C it
30:58
know asp.net uh IDE and and we all C it
30:58
know asp.net uh IDE and and we all C it but you know you know it was the first
31:00
but you know you know it was the first
31:00
but you know you know it was the first one so you know it's it's just like
31:03
one so you know it's it's just like
31:03
one so you know it's it's just like visual Source sa was was cursed but you
31:06
visual Source sa was was cursed but you
31:06
visual Source sa was was cursed but you know it was the first one we had so we
31:08
know it was the first one we had so we
31:08
know it was the first one we had so we moved on to bigger and better things and
31:10
moved on to bigger and better things and
31:10
moved on to bigger and better things and we have all moved on to different things
31:12
we have all moved on to different things
31:12
we have all moved on to different things in our careers and and that's why like I
31:15
in our careers and and that's why like I
31:15
in our careers and and that's why like I said I I invited you all on to be this
31:17
said I I invited you all on to be this
31:18
said I I invited you all on to be this uh different you know uh uh paths in
31:21
uh different you know uh uh paths in
31:21
uh different you know uh uh paths in this career different struggles you know
31:23
this career different struggles you know
31:23
this career different struggles you know things like that so to help other people
31:25
things like that so to help other people
31:25
things like that so to help other people so with that said does anybody like I
31:28
so with that said does anybody like I
31:28
so with that said does anybody like I said if you have a number one tip uh
31:30
said if you have a number one tip uh
31:30
said if you have a number one tip uh we're going to do that at the end uh but
31:33
we're going to do that at the end uh but
31:33
we're going to do that at the end uh but you know if you have anything you want
31:35
you know if you have anything you want
31:35
you know if you have anything you want to kind of start out with Floors open to
31:38
to kind of start out with Floors open to
31:38
to kind of start out with Floors open to anybody who wants to start I wouldn't
31:40
anybody who wants to start I wouldn't
31:40
anybody who wants to start I wouldn't mind just going ahead and and laying out
31:44
mind just going ahead and and laying out
31:44
mind just going ahead and and laying out the obvious that if you want to go far
31:48
the obvious that if you want to go far
31:48
the obvious that if you want to go far in a career in Tech you've got to really
31:51
in a career in Tech you've got to really
31:51
in a career in Tech you've got to really enjoy learning yes and and no you know
31:56
enjoy learning yes and and no you know
31:56
enjoy learning yes and and no you know it seems like every year that it becomes
31:59
it seems like every year that it becomes
31:59
it seems like every year that it becomes more and more important that things are
32:00
more and more important that things are
32:00
more and more important that things are changing so fast if you don't love to
32:03
changing so fast if you don't love to
32:03
changing so fast if you don't love to learn and love to dig in and and uh go
32:07
learn and love to dig in and and uh go
32:07
learn and love to dig in and and uh go deep on Tech Technologies and figure
32:11
deep on Tech Technologies and figure
32:11
deep on Tech Technologies and figure things out and problem solve and all
32:13
things out and problem solve and all
32:13
things out and problem solve and all that kind of stuff then it may not be
32:15
that kind of stuff then it may not be
32:15
that kind of stuff then it may not be the the right career for you but it's
32:17
the the right career for you but it's
32:17
the the right career for you but it's the reason why I got into it in the
32:18
the reason why I got into it in the
32:18
the reason why I got into it in the first place and the reason that keeps me
32:21
first place and the reason that keeps me
32:21
first place and the reason that keeps me uh learning or doing more and more is
32:25
uh learning or doing more and more is
32:25
uh learning or doing more and more is because I love to learn and never ending
32:29
because I love to learn and never ending
32:29
because I love to learn and never ending supply of uh things to learn yeah well
32:33
supply of uh things to learn yeah well
32:33
supply of uh things to learn yeah well the number the number six tip and the
32:35
the number the number six tip and the
32:35
the number the number six tip and the very first tip which is the number six
32:37
very first tip which is the number six
32:37
very first tip which is the number six tip in my article is that right and and
32:41
tip in my article is that right and and
32:41
tip in my article is that right and and it's something I didn't really realize
32:43
it's something I didn't really realize
32:43
it's something I didn't really realize in the beginning uh but I really loved
32:46
in the beginning uh but I really loved
32:46
in the beginning uh but I really loved once I learned it I mean once I found it
32:48
once I learned it I mean once I found it
32:49
once I learned it I mean once I found it out because you know like I said in the
32:51
out because you know like I said in the
32:51
out because you know like I said in the article is it's just like being a
32:53
article is it's just like being a
32:53
article is it's just like being a musician you can't learn everything
32:55
musician you can't learn everything
32:55
musician you can't learn everything right and and that quest of always
32:58
right and and that quest of always
32:58
right and and that quest of always having something to learn is is what
33:01
having something to learn is is what
33:01
having something to learn is is what gets me up in the morning right well let
33:03
gets me up in the morning right well let
33:03
gets me up in the morning right well let me let me piggyback on that with
33:05
me let me piggyback on that with
33:05
me let me piggyback on that with something that's not necessarily obvious
33:07
something that's not necessarily obvious
33:07
something that's not necessarily obvious to some younger
33:09
to some younger
33:09
to some younger developers this pace of having to keep
33:13
developers this pace of having to keep
33:13
developers this pace of having to keep learning things and the the accelerating
33:16
learning things and the the accelerating
33:16
learning things and the the accelerating complexity and constant change in the
33:19
complexity and constant change in the
33:19
complexity and constant change in the industry is a strain it is and there are
33:23
industry is a strain it is and there are
33:23
industry is a strain it is and there are people I let's say the the majority of
33:26
people I let's say the the majority of
33:26
people I let's say the the majority of the people I started out working with I
33:29
the people I started out working with I
33:29
the people I started out working with I saw them Fade Out of tech and
33:31
saw them Fade Out of tech and
33:31
saw them Fade Out of tech and development careers usually in their
33:33
development careers usually in their
33:34
development careers usually in their their late 40s or early 50s uh that the
33:37
their late 40s or early 50s uh that the
33:37
their late 40s or early 50s uh that the pace of change and the need to
33:39
pace of change and the need to
33:39
pace of change and the need to constantly keep up with things just
33:41
constantly keep up with things just
33:41
constantly keep up with things just became too much for them to Bear the the
33:44
became too much for them to Bear the the
33:44
became too much for them to Bear the the stress of it was just too much and so if
33:47
stress of it was just too much and so if
33:47
stress of it was just too much and so if you're at a young State you may be at
33:50
you're at a young State you may be at
33:50
you're at a young State you may be at that State where you're knocking out 10
33:52
that State where you're knocking out 10
33:52
that State where you're knocking out 10 hours of coding a day or whatever right
33:54
hours of coding a day or whatever right
33:54
hours of coding a day or whatever right now um you need to prepare for the time
33:57
now um you need to prepare for the time
33:57
now um you need to prepare for the time when that would will not be the case
33:59
when that would will not be the case
33:59
when that would will not be the case when you won't be able to do it I can't
34:01
when you won't be able to do it I can't
34:01
when you won't be able to do it I can't do I five or six hours of coding a day
34:03
do I five or six hours of coding a day
34:03
do I five or six hours of coding a day is all I can do now and and that's one
34:05
is all I can do now and and that's one
34:05
is all I can do now and and that's one of the reasons I don't do as much so one
34:08
of the reasons I don't do as much so one
34:08
of the reasons I don't do as much so one of the ways that you deal with that is
34:10
of the ways that you deal with that is
34:10
of the ways that you deal with that is to make sure that it isn't just code and
34:13
to make sure that it isn't just code and
34:13
to make sure that it isn't just code and technology that you know how to do I
34:14
technology that you know how to do I
34:14
technology that you know how to do I know we're going to talk later about and
34:16
know we're going to talk later about and
34:16
know we're going to talk later about and I think one of your points uh in the
34:18
I think one of your points uh in the
34:18
I think one of your points uh in the article was about soft skills and I'm
34:20
article was about soft skills and I'm
34:20
article was about soft skills and I'm sure we'll get into some of that that
34:22
sure we'll get into some of that that
34:22
sure we'll get into some of that that the way I think about it is you want to
34:23
the way I think about it is you want to
34:23
the way I think about it is you want to have kind of what some people call a
34:25
have kind of what some people call a
34:25
have kind of what some people call a talent stack you don't want to just be
34:27
talent stack you don't want to just be
34:28
talent stack you don't want to just be be great at one thing you want to be
34:30
be great at one thing you want to be
34:30
be great at one thing you want to be really good at several things and that
34:33
really good at several things and that
34:33
really good at several things and that gives you more latitude more flexibility
34:37
gives you more latitude more flexibility
34:37
gives you more latitude more flexibility as you reach that point um call it kind
34:40
as you reach that point um call it kind
34:40
as you reach that point um call it kind of the middle-aged crisis of developers
34:42
of the middle-aged crisis of developers
34:42
of the middle-aged crisis of developers or something that when you reach that
34:44
or something that when you reach that
34:44
or something that when you reach that point where you're having trouble going
34:46
point where you're having trouble going
34:46
point where you're having trouble going on with stress that you have various
34:48
on with stress that you have various
34:48
on with stress that you have various kinds of directions that you can shift
34:51
kinds of directions that you can shift
34:51
kinds of directions that you can shift your focus and your time and and various
34:54
your focus and your time and and various
34:54
your focus and your time and and various ways to make yourself valuable to
34:56
ways to make yourself valuable to
34:56
ways to make yourself valuable to software development efforts yeah I I
34:58
software development efforts yeah I I
34:58
software development efforts yeah I I think I'd like to follow on with
35:00
think I'd like to follow on with
35:00
think I'd like to follow on with something real quick and that is this
35:02
something real quick and that is this
35:02
something real quick and that is this idea of needing to learn uh constantly
35:05
idea of needing to learn uh constantly
35:05
idea of needing to learn uh constantly is absolutely true like I'm on board
35:07
is absolutely true like I'm on board
35:07
is absolutely true like I'm on board with it completely but there is a
35:09
with it completely but there is a
35:09
with it completely but there is a segment of our community that probably I
35:13
segment of our community that probably I
35:13
segment of our community that probably I think it get skewed because of the kind
35:15
think it get skewed because of the kind
35:15
think it get skewed because of the kind of people that are on um places like
35:17
of people that are on um places like
35:17
of people that are on um places like this or people that have uh YouTube
35:19
this or people that have uh YouTube
35:19
this or people that have uh YouTube channels or that run user groups there's
35:22
channels or that run user groups there's
35:22
channels or that run user groups there's a ton of developers out there who are
35:24
a ton of developers out there who are
35:24
a ton of developers out there who are really good at the one thing that they
35:26
really good at the one thing that they
35:26
really good at the one thing that they do the language they first learned or
35:28
do the language they first learned or
35:28
do the language they first learned or whatever and there's nothing wrong with
35:30
whatever and there's nothing wrong with
35:30
whatever and there's nothing wrong with that you know they can have longstanding
35:33
that you know they can have longstanding
35:33
that you know they can have longstanding careers uh just you know I used to joke
35:36
careers uh just you know I used to joke
35:36
careers uh just you know I used to joke that uh if you want to make money in
35:38
that uh if you want to make money in
35:38
that uh if you want to make money in this industry you should become a Ms
35:39
this industry you should become a Ms
35:39
this industry you should become a Ms programmer which is a every hospital
35:42
programmer which is a every hospital
35:42
programmer which is a every hospital used to use Ms and some of them a lot of
35:44
used to use Ms and some of them a lot of
35:44
used to use Ms and some of them a lot of them still do um because there's only
35:46
them still do um because there's only
35:46
them still do um because there's only like a hundred guys that really know
35:48
like a hundred guys that really know
35:48
like a hundred guys that really know that and they're dying off right so I
35:52
that and they're dying off right so I
35:52
that and they're dying off right so I think that if learning isn't your Forte
35:54
think that if learning isn't your Forte
35:54
think that if learning isn't your Forte you will still need to learn of course
35:56
you will still need to learn of course
35:56
you will still need to learn of course you're going to need to learn but don't
35:58
you're going to need to learn but don't
35:58
you're going to need to learn but don't be too afraid that you have to keep up
36:00
be too afraid that you have to keep up
36:00
be too afraid that you have to keep up with every new technology that comes out
36:03
with every new technology that comes out
36:03
with every new technology that comes out uh you know old code is good code is
36:05
uh you know old code is good code is
36:05
uh you know old code is good code is what I was told early in my career and
36:07
what I was told early in my career and
36:07
what I was told early in my career and long as it works right yeah well I I had
36:10
long as it works right yeah well I I had
36:10
long as it works right yeah well I I had a really really quick I just want to
36:12
a really really quick I just want to
36:12
a really really quick I just want to interject I had a
36:14
interject I had a
36:14
interject I had a professor uh a talk about this in his
36:16
professor uh a talk about this in his
36:16
professor uh a talk about this in his class about it was a class on system
36:19
class about it was a class on system
36:19
class about it was a class on system design and Analysis the best class I
36:21
design and Analysis the best class I
36:21
design and Analysis the best class I ever took and he termed it techn stress
36:25
ever took and he termed it techn stress
36:25
ever took and he termed it techn stress you know and when I write about it or
36:27
you know and when I write about it or
36:27
you know and when I write about it or talk about it in class or whatever I
36:29
talk about it in class or whatever I
36:29
talk about it in class or whatever I always tell people I have like 110% of
36:31
always tell people I have like 110% of
36:32
always tell people I have like 110% of that you know it causes a lot of stress
36:34
that you know it causes a lot of stress
36:34
that you know it causes a lot of stress in me and and worry you know and and
36:37
in me and and worry you know and and
36:37
in me and and worry you know and and that's been difficult to deal with in my
36:38
that's been difficult to deal with in my
36:39
that's been difficult to deal with in my career and I'm sure all of you too but
36:42
career and I'm sure all of you too but
36:42
career and I'm sure all of you too but Dustin yeah what I was gonna I was going
36:44
Dustin yeah what I was gonna I was going
36:44
Dustin yeah what I was gonna I was going to just kind of point out the metap
36:46
to just kind of point out the metap
36:46
to just kind of point out the metap point of the learning thing but I I and
36:47
point of the learning thing but I I and
36:47
point of the learning thing but I I and I will address what you were discussing
36:49
I will address what you were discussing
36:49
I will address what you were discussing uh which you kind of led me to but but
36:51
uh which you kind of led me to but but
36:51
uh which you kind of led me to but but just the meta point of this that
36:53
just the meta point of this that
36:53
just the meta point of this that learning and we're you know it's there's
36:55
learning and we're you know it's there's
36:55
learning and we're you know it's there's going to be a lot of crossover amongst
36:56
going to be a lot of crossover amongst
36:56
going to be a lot of crossover amongst these tips right learning isn't just
36:58
these tips right learning isn't just
36:58
these tips right learning isn't just about technology learning isn't just
37:00
about technology learning isn't just
37:00
about technology learning isn't just about but but definitely the
37:02
about but but definitely the
37:02
about but but definitely the specifically the learning technology
37:03
specifically the learning technology
37:03
specifically the learning technology thing it's hard um and you want to have
37:09
thing it's hard um and you want to have
37:09
thing it's hard um and you want to have like it's not just about Comfort like
37:12
like it's not just about Comfort like
37:12
like it's not just about Comfort like you know you that's part of it you want
37:13
you know you that's part of it you want
37:13
you know you that's part of it you want to you all kind of temp to stay where
37:16
to you all kind of temp to stay where
37:16
to you all kind of temp to stay where we're comfortable you know and say well
37:18
we're comfortable you know and say well
37:18
we're comfortable you know and say well I'm good at this I know how to solve
37:20
I'm good at this I know how to solve
37:20
I'm good at this I know how to solve problems in this framework or on this
37:23
problems in this framework or on this
37:23
problems in this framework or on this platform or with this language right but
37:26
platform or with this language right but
37:26
platform or with this language right but being able to to to put yourself out of
37:29
being able to to to put yourself out of
37:29
being able to to to put yourself out of your comfort zone is how I mean you
37:31
your comfort zone is how I mean you
37:31
your comfort zone is how I mean you actually learn um I don't learn
37:33
actually learn um I don't learn
37:33
actually learn um I don't learn programming by reading books I don't
37:35
programming by reading books I don't
37:35
programming by reading books I don't learn them by reading blog posts I
37:36
learn them by reading blog posts I
37:36
learn them by reading blog posts I learned them by building something right
37:38
learned them by building something right
37:38
learned them by building something right right and so having to go and put myself
37:42
right and so having to go and put myself
37:42
right and so having to go and put myself in a place where I need to go and learn
37:45
in a place where I need to go and learn
37:45
in a place where I need to go and learn that new next thing uh for me and I
37:47
that new next thing uh for me and I
37:47
that new next thing uh for me and I might be I might be learning the next
37:49
might be I might be learning the next
37:50
might be I might be learning the next thing it's just my next thing it's
37:51
thing it's just my next thing it's
37:51
thing it's just my next thing it's actually everybody else knows it I just
37:53
actually everybody else knows it I just
37:53
actually everybody else knows it I just haven't done it yet you know um when I
37:55
haven't done it yet you know um when I
37:55
haven't done it yet you know um when I joined Microsoft in 2008 like
37:58
joined Microsoft in 2008 like
37:58
joined Microsoft in 2008 like the dirty secret there was and this was
37:59
the dirty secret there was and this was
37:59
the dirty secret there was and this was the new hotness of the time right this
38:01
the new hotness of the time right this
38:01
the new hotness of the time right this was kind of the big deal for UI
38:03
was kind of the big deal for UI
38:03
was kind of the big deal for UI Frameworks was nobody at Microsoft
38:05
Frameworks was nobody at Microsoft
38:05
Frameworks was nobody at Microsoft seemed to no WPF at all but
38:08
seemed to no WPF at all but
38:08
seemed to no WPF at all but all okay at that still don't yeah and
38:12
all okay at that still don't yeah and
38:12
all okay at that still don't yeah and all it's still it's so deep right it's
38:14
all it's still it's so deep right it's
38:14
all it's still it's so deep right it's like well how many yeah how much how
38:16
like well how many yeah how much how
38:16
like well how many yeah how much how much could you possibly know um but you
38:19
much could you possibly know um but you
38:19
much could you possibly know um but you know I put myself in that like what's my
38:22
know I put myself in that like what's my
38:22
know I put myself in that like what's my personal project I need to go and build
38:25
personal project I need to go and build
38:25
personal project I need to go and build something that puts me deeply in that so
38:27
something that puts me deeply in that so
38:27
something that puts me deeply in that so that I can understand what the hell is
38:30
that I can understand what the hell is
38:30
that I can understand what the hell is going on right and and and talk cogently
38:33
going on right and and and talk cogently
38:33
going on right and and and talk cogently about it um and so to this day personal
38:36
about it um and so to this day personal
38:36
about it um and so to this day personal projects that's usually a red flag for
38:38
projects that's usually a red flag for
38:38
projects that's usually a red flag for me if you don't have any when we go to
38:40
me if you don't have any when we go to
38:40
me if you don't have any when we go to me too right definitely me too and
38:42
me too right definitely me too and
38:43
me too right definitely me too and reason and to piggy back off with some
38:45
reason and to piggy back off with some
38:45
reason and to piggy back off with some really quick what you said is you know
38:47
really quick what you said is you know
38:47
really quick what you said is you know you you said this but you have to find
38:50
you you said this but you have to find
38:50
you you said this but you have to find ways of challenging yourself and and so
38:53
ways of challenging yourself and and so
38:53
ways of challenging yourself and and so one of the ways I've always challenged
38:55
one of the ways I've always challenged
38:55
one of the ways I've always challenged myself at least when you know when I was
38:57
myself at least when you know when I was
38:57
myself at least when you know when I was at the University was I would actually
38:58
at the University was I would actually
38:58
at the University was I would actually pick classes of teach I really didn't
39:00
pick classes of teach I really didn't
39:00
pick classes of teach I really didn't know a lot about right because I wanted
39:03
know a lot about right because I wanted
39:03
know a lot about right because I wanted to to learn about that technology and
39:05
to to learn about that technology and
39:05
to to learn about that technology and and my feeling is well if people are
39:07
and my feeling is well if people are
39:07
and my feeling is well if people are paying you know whatever much money they
39:09
paying you know whatever much money they
39:09
paying you know whatever much money they pay for those classes I better at least
39:12
pay for those classes I better at least
39:12
pay for those classes I better at least be able to talk about it right and so I
39:14
be able to talk about it right and so I
39:14
be able to talk about it right and so I spent I would spend at least 40 hours a
39:17
spent I would spend at least 40 hours a
39:17
spent I would spend at least 40 hours a week preparing for the first you know
39:20
week preparing for the first you know
39:20
week preparing for the first you know every day you know the first couple
39:22
every day you know the first couple
39:22
every day you know the first couple times I taught that at the University
39:25
times I taught that at the University
39:25
times I taught that at the University and and that pushed me into into doing
39:28
and and that pushed me into into doing
39:28
and and that pushed me into into doing uncomfortable things and learning things
39:30
uncomfortable things and learning things
39:30
uncomfortable things and learning things that you know that I wanted to learn but
39:33
that you know that I wanted to learn but
39:33
that you know that I wanted to learn but needed a way to do it
39:36
needed a way to do it
39:36
needed a way to do it right I I was I take slightly different
39:39
right I I was I take slightly different
39:39
right I I was I take slightly different directions like J you're you're uh you
39:42
directions like J you're you're uh you
39:42
directions like J you're you're uh you got robot mic you a robot
39:50
mic better no
39:53
mic better no
39:53
mic better no no robot mik it may be your throat if
39:58
no robot mik it may be your throat if
39:58
no robot mik it may be your throat if sorry buddy can you please say all your
40:00
sorry buddy can you please say all your
40:00
sorry buddy can you please say all your bases belong to
40:04
us on
40:06
us on
40:06
us on M see I fig this
40:11
out maybe I maybe Simon has an idea
40:14
out maybe I maybe Simon has an idea
40:14
out maybe I maybe Simon has an idea maybe you need to jump off and back on
40:16
maybe you need to jump off and back on
40:16
maybe you need to jump off and back on again or something anybody else have
40:18
again or something anybody else have
40:18
again or something anybody else have something to say while Jared's coming
40:19
something to say while Jared's coming
40:19
something to say while Jared's coming back I I do it took me a long time to
40:22
back I I do it took me a long time to
40:22
back I I do it took me a long time to figure out the phases of learning
40:25
figure out the phases of learning
40:25
figure out the phases of learning because I used to just think I'm stupid
40:28
because I used to just think I'm stupid
40:28
because I used to just think I'm stupid that I don't get this right away and so
40:30
that I don't get this right away and so
40:30
that I don't get this right away and so I've talked about it as uh I when I
40:33
I've talked about it as uh I when I
40:33
I've talked about it as uh I when I start learning something I I start with
40:35
start learning something I I start with
40:35
start learning something I I start with the phase of they're stupid right why
40:38
the phase of they're stupid right why
40:38
the phase of they're stupid right why would they possibly do it this way and
40:40
would they possibly do it this way and
40:40
would they possibly do it this way and then I get into I'm stupid why didn't I
40:43
then I get into I'm stupid why didn't I
40:43
then I get into I'm stupid why didn't I see this and then you finally sort of
40:45
see this and then you finally sort of
40:45
see this and then you finally sort of reach a peak of like oh just this oh and
40:49
reach a peak of like oh just this oh and
40:49
reach a peak of like oh just this oh and then it um goes off but knowing that you
40:52
then it um goes off but knowing that you
40:52
then it um goes off but knowing that you have to be in those other phases of it's
40:55
have to be in those other phases of it's
40:55
have to be in those other phases of it's not going to be perfect not going to be
40:58
not going to be perfect not going to be
40:58
not going to be perfect not going to be you know that
41:00
you know that
41:00
you know that uh that you're not dumb because it's
41:02
uh that you're not dumb because it's
41:02
uh that you're not dumb because it's hard at first a lot of the stuff is
41:05
hard at first a lot of the stuff is
41:05
hard at first a lot of the stuff is difficult and yeah and persevering
41:06
difficult and yeah and persevering
41:06
difficult and yeah and persevering through that instead of just beating
41:08
through that instead of just beating
41:08
through that instead of just beating yourself up yes and you know one thing
41:10
yourself up yes and you know one thing
41:10
yourself up yes and you know one thing that I've noticed with software
41:11
that I've noticed with software
41:12
that I've noticed with software Engineers because I have this too that I
41:14
Engineers because I have this too that I
41:14
Engineers because I have this too that I didn't know about for most of my career
41:16
didn't know about for most of my career
41:16
didn't know about for most of my career really is is is impostor syndrome which
41:18
really is is is impostor syndrome which
41:18
really is is is impostor syndrome which really you'll kind of hold you back from
41:21
really you'll kind of hold you back from
41:21
really you'll kind of hold you back from a lot of this right and and so that's
41:24
a lot of this right and and so that's
41:24
a lot of this right and and so that's another thing a lot of us need to deal
41:26
another thing a lot of us need to deal
41:26
another thing a lot of us need to deal with is is is those kind of learning
41:30
with is is is those kind of learning
41:30
with is is is those kind of learning learning you know gets a way of learning
41:33
learning you know gets a way of learning
41:33
learning you know gets a way of learning I guess is what I'm trying to say Jared
41:35
I guess is what I'm trying to say Jared
41:35
I guess is what I'm trying to say Jared you want to see if you're better all
41:37
you want to see if you're better all
41:37
you want to see if you're better all right is this better or not oh yeah
41:40
right is this better or not oh yeah
41:40
right is this better or not oh yeah great don't don't mute your uh mic
41:43
great don't don't mute your uh mic
41:43
great don't don't mute your uh mic anymore yeah yeah again you guys are
41:46
anymore yeah yeah again you guys are
41:46
anymore yeah yeah again you guys are gonna hear all my typing um uh the one
41:49
gonna hear all my typing um uh the one
41:49
gonna hear all my typing um uh the one thing I was gonna say is is particularly
41:51
thing I was gonna say is is particularly
41:51
thing I was gonna say is is particularly when you talk about growing your career
41:53
when you talk about growing your career
41:53
when you talk about growing your career and I uh it's kind of a wall I hit um
41:56
and I uh it's kind of a wall I hit um
41:56
and I uh it's kind of a wall I hit um kind of going from more of a junior
41:58
kind of going from more of a junior
41:58
kind of going from more of a junior developer to a senior developer was
42:00
developer to a senior developer was
42:00
developer to a senior developer was actually like the ability to communicate
42:02
actually like the ability to communicate
42:02
actually like the ability to communicate my ideas and WR and in big groups like I
42:05
my ideas and WR and in big groups like I
42:05
my ideas and WR and in big groups like I absolutely like I was someone
42:07
absolutely like I was someone
42:07
absolutely like I was someone particularly early in career like you
42:08
particularly early in career like you
42:08
particularly early in career like you give me like I I enjoyed the learning I
42:10
give me like I I enjoyed the learning I
42:10
give me like I I enjoyed the learning I enjoyed the grind I enjoyed just kind of
42:11
enjoyed the grind I enjoyed just kind of
42:11
enjoyed the grind I enjoyed just kind of like give me a hard problem I don't
42:14
like give me a hard problem I don't
42:14
like give me a hard problem I don't necessarily know that area but I'll I'll
42:15
necessarily know that area but I'll I'll
42:15
necessarily know that area but I'll I'll go figure it out like I can do this and
42:17
go figure it out like I can do this and
42:17
go figure it out like I can do this and I could I was very good at producing
42:18
I could I was very good at producing
42:18
I could I was very good at producing code I was very good at producing good
42:20
code I was very good at producing good
42:20
code I was very good at producing good code and like showing people how to do
42:22
code and like showing people how to do
42:22
code and like showing people how to do better testing things like that but I
42:24
better testing things like that but I
42:24
better testing things like that but I was definitely not once I kind of wanted
42:26
was definitely not once I kind of wanted
42:26
was definitely not once I kind of wanted to go to more the senior level I was
42:29
to go to more the senior level I was
42:29
to go to more the senior level I was kind of hitting a wall because I just
42:30
kind of hitting a wall because I just
42:30
kind of hitting a wall because I just couldn't get I was not a good writer
42:32
couldn't get I was not a good writer
42:32
couldn't get I was not a good writer like if I I really quickly noticed I was
42:34
like if I I really quickly noticed I was
42:34
like if I I really quickly noticed I was like I was getting frustrated with my
42:36
like I was getting frustrated with my
42:36
like I was getting frustrated with my career like why is that person having
42:39
career like why is that person having
42:39
career like why is that person having success in the type area I want to be
42:40
success in the type area I want to be
42:40
success in the type area I want to be successful in and then I started
42:42
successful in and then I started
42:42
successful in and then I started noticing like looking more like the
42:44
noticing like looking more like the
42:44
noticing like looking more like the emails they wrote the documents they
42:46
emails they wrote the documents they
42:46
emails they wrote the documents they wrote like what kind of reactions are
42:47
wrote like what kind of reactions are
42:47
wrote like what kind of reactions are they getting to their documents and
42:49
they getting to their documents and
42:49
they getting to their documents and their emails that compared to what I am
42:51
their emails that compared to what I am
42:51
their emails that compared to what I am getting and at some point I realized
42:54
getting and at some point I realized
42:54
getting and at some point I realized kind of like I was very good one-on-one
42:56
kind of like I was very good one-on-one
42:56
kind of like I was very good one-on-one with people like you put in a room with
42:57
with people like you put in a room with
42:57
with people like you put in a room with someone oneon-one I can get my idea
42:59
someone oneon-one I can get my idea
42:59
someone oneon-one I can get my idea across I can get you on board with my
43:01
across I can get you on board with my
43:01
across I can get you on board with my idea you put me in a room with like 10
43:03
idea you put me in a room with like 10
43:03
idea you put me in a room with like 10 people I was not as good of a
43:05
people I was not as good of a
43:05
people I was not as good of a communicator email terrible uh I just
43:08
communicator email terrible uh I just
43:08
communicator email terrible uh I just was not I I was not as effective as a
43:11
was not I I was not as effective as a
43:11
was not I I was not as effective as a writer as I needed to be it's so one of
43:13
writer as I needed to be it's so one of
43:13
writer as I needed to be it's so one of the reasons I started a Blog about 15
43:16
the reasons I started a Blog about 15
43:16
the reasons I started a Blog about 15 years ago and I started uh spending a
43:18
years ago and I started uh spending a
43:18
years ago and I started uh spending a lot more time participating on sites
43:21
lot more time participating on sites
43:21
lot more time participating on sites like stack Overflow uh when it was kind
43:23
like stack Overflow uh when it was kind
43:23
like stack Overflow uh when it was kind of starting up was I realized like these
43:25
of starting up was I realized like these
43:25
of starting up was I realized like these are way particularly stack overflow I'm
43:27
are way particularly stack overflow I'm
43:27
are way particularly stack overflow I'm Gonna Learn really fast you know to be a
43:29
Gonna Learn really fast you know to be a
43:29
Gonna Learn really fast you know to be a better writer and a more effective
43:31
better writer and a more effective
43:31
better writer and a more effective writer and I will get points based
43:33
writer and I will get points based
43:33
writer and I will get points based feedback on how good I am doing and I
43:36
feedback on how good I am doing and I
43:36
feedback on how good I am doing and I and I it took me a couple years to get
43:38
and I it took me a couple years to get
43:38
and I it took me a couple years to get to a point where my writing was uh
43:41
to a point where my writing was uh
43:41
to a point where my writing was uh legible by but it is something
43:44
legible by but it is something
43:44
legible by but it is something particularly now as we've shifted from
43:46
particularly now as we've shifted from
43:46
particularly now as we've shifted from in like Microsoft a world where everyone
43:48
in like Microsoft a world where everyone
43:48
in like Microsoft a world where everyone is in the office and I'm able to talk to
43:51
is in the office and I'm able to talk to
43:51
is in the office and I'm able to talk to people and use my hands I'm a very I'm a
43:52
people and use my hands I'm a very I'm a
43:53
people and use my hands I'm a very I'm a good hands talker um to a point where so
43:56
good hands talker um to a point where so
43:56
good hands talker um to a point where so much of our community ation is
43:58
much of our community ation is
43:58
much of our community ation is asynchronous and writing and emailing
44:00
asynchronous and writing and emailing
44:00
asynchronous and writing and emailing teams like the writing skills are more
44:03
teams like the writing skills are more
44:03
teams like the writing skills are more and more important and it's something I
44:05
and more important and it's something I
44:05
and more important and it's something I kind of like I just didn't care about
44:07
kind of like I just didn't care about
44:07
kind of like I just didn't care about when I was in school I was like yeah
44:08
when I was in school I was like yeah
44:08
when I was in school I was like yeah whatever I passed I didn't either I
44:10
whatever I passed I didn't either I
44:10
whatever I passed I didn't either I passed English I'm good I I don't like I
44:12
passed English I'm good I I don't like I
44:12
passed English I'm good I I don't like I got I got through that I can focus on my
44:14
got I got through that I can focus on my
44:14
got I got through that I can focus on my computers I gotta see I'm happy yeah
44:16
computers I gotta see I'm happy yeah
44:16
computers I gotta see I'm happy yeah yeah I got through
44:17
yeah I got through
44:17
yeah I got through that I I definitely think that
44:20
that I I definitely think that
44:20
that I I definitely think that people I have found a number of other
44:22
people I have found a number of other
44:22
people I have found a number of other Junior gavs who have really undervalued
44:24
Junior gavs who have really undervalued
44:24
Junior gavs who have really undervalued that same skill I've had to take them
44:26
that same skill I've had to take them
44:26
that same skill I've had to take them aside and be like you really have to get
44:27
aside and be like you really have to get
44:27
aside and be like you really have to get better at that because it will your
44:30
better at that because it will your
44:30
better at that because it will your technical skills will take you this far
44:32
technical skills will take you this far
44:32
technical skills will take you this far but you will hit a wall if you can't be
44:34
but you will hit a wall if you can't be
44:34
but you will hit a wall if you can't be a good communicator right Jared are you
44:36
a good communicator right Jared are you
44:36
a good communicator right Jared are you familiar with the million word
44:38
familiar with the million word
44:38
familiar with the million word hypothesis no I am not familiar with
44:41
hypothesis no I am not familiar with
44:41
hypothesis no I am not familiar with people who in that this came out of
44:43
people who in that this came out of
44:43
people who in that this came out of people who do writing as a profession
44:45
people who do writing as a profession
44:45
people who do writing as a profession that training your brain to be effective
44:47
that training your brain to be effective
44:47
that training your brain to be effective at writing requires you to write about a
44:49
at writing requires you to write about a
44:49
at writing requires you to write about a million
44:50
million
44:50
million words that's and and that that if it
44:53
words that's and and that that if it
44:53
words that's and and that that if it doesn't almost doesn't matter what you
44:55
doesn't almost doesn't matter what you
44:55
doesn't almost doesn't matter what you write you're just training that part of
44:57
write you're just training that part of
44:57
write you're just training that part of your brain and a typical blog post is
44:59
your brain and a typical blog post is
45:00
your brain and a typical blog post is probably a couple thousand words so that
45:01
probably a couple thousand words so that
45:01
probably a couple thousand words so that kind of gives you some scale about what
45:04
kind of gives you some scale about what
45:04
kind of gives you some scale about what it takes you said a couple of years I'm
45:06
it takes you said a couple of years I'm
45:06
it takes you said a couple of years I'm guessing during that couple of years you
45:08
guessing during that couple of years you
45:08
guessing during that couple of years you probably wrote hundreds of thousands of
45:09
probably wrote hundreds of thousands of
45:09
probably wrote hundreds of thousands of words you might have been closing in on
45:11
words you might have been closing in on
45:11
words you might have been closing in on that that million word mark But for
45:13
that that million word mark But for
45:13
that that million word mark But for those of you who out there kind of
45:15
those of you who out there kind of
45:15
those of you who out there kind of starting that Journey don't expect
45:17
starting that Journey don't expect
45:17
starting that Journey don't expect results too fast it it's it's a a it it
45:20
results too fast it it's it's a a it it
45:20
results too fast it it's it's a a it it takes some time to train up that portion
45:22
takes some time to train up that portion
45:22
takes some time to train up that portion of your brain yeah and one of the
45:24
of your brain yeah and one of the
45:24
of your brain yeah and one of the rewarding ones if you do like a blog
45:26
rewarding ones if you do like a blog
45:26
rewarding ones if you do like a blog post or something is like go back and
45:28
post or something is like go back and
45:28
post or something is like go back and read the things you wrote six months ago
45:31
read the things you wrote six months ago
45:31
read the things you wrote six months ago if you cring if you cringe you're making
45:35
if you cring if you cringe you're making
45:35
if you cring if you cringe you're making progress
45:37
progress
45:37
progress yeah true I've I've gone back on my blog
45:40
yeah true I've I've gone back on my blog
45:40
yeah true I've I've gone back on my blog you know especially because I I really
45:43
you know especially because I I really
45:43
you know especially because I I really uh utilize chat GPT to help me edit my
45:46
uh utilize chat GPT to help me edit my
45:46
uh utilize chat GPT to help me edit my books and everything now I've really
45:48
books and everything now I've really
45:48
books and everything now I've really I've gone back on my blog to some of my
45:50
I've gone back on my blog to some of my
45:50
I've gone back on my blog to some of my favorite articles I've written a long
45:51
favorite articles I've written a long
45:51
favorite articles I've written a long time ago and re redid them right uh with
45:57
time ago and re redid them right uh with
45:57
time ago and re redid them right uh with not only the knowledge I have but also
45:58
not only the knowledge I have but also
45:58
not only the knowledge I have but also with you know chat TBT assisting me with
46:01
with you know chat TBT assisting me with
46:01
with you know chat TBT assisting me with editing but uh I've done that you know
46:04
editing but uh I've done that you know
46:04
editing but uh I've done that you know because 10 years ago I was worse than I
46:06
because 10 years ago I was worse than I
46:06
because 10 years ago I was worse than I am now I
46:07
am now I
46:08
am now I think one thing about the million uh uh
46:11
think one thing about the million uh uh
46:11
think one thing about the million uh uh words though it can't be the same word
46:14
words though it can't be the same word
46:14
words though it can't be the same word please don't write the same word no no
46:16
please don't write the same word no no
46:16
please don't write the same word no no you have to put thought in between the
46:18
you have to put thought in between the
46:18
you have to put thought in between the words yes Excel is not a database Excel
46:20
words yes Excel is not a database Excel
46:20
words yes Excel is not a database Excel is not a database yeah can't you can't
46:22
is not a database yeah can't you can't
46:22
is not a database yeah can't you can't do
46:23
do
46:24
do that it people of my era I think
46:27
that it people of my era I think
46:27
that it people of my era I think are a little different than that I got
46:29
are a little different than that I got
46:29
are a little different than that I got into this because it I thought it wasn't
46:32
into this because it I thought it wasn't
46:32
into this because it I thought it wasn't about people and I was wholly wrong you
46:37
about people and I was wholly wrong you
46:37
about people and I was wholly wrong you know uh sitting down and developing for
46:40
know uh sitting down and developing for
46:40
know uh sitting down and developing for you know 6 to 10 hours a day is fine but
46:43
you know 6 to 10 hours a day is fine but
46:43
you know 6 to 10 hours a day is fine but that's not the job the job is to uh
46:47
that's not the job the job is to uh
46:47
that's not the job the job is to uh collaborate work through
46:49
collaborate work through
46:49
collaborate work through designs together as a group you know and
46:54
designs together as a group you know and
46:54
designs together as a group you know and um um I I really wanted to you know you
46:57
um um I I really wanted to you know you
46:57
um um I I really wanted to you know you Pizza you put pizza under the door and
46:59
Pizza you put pizza under the door and
46:59
Pizza you put pizza under the door and code comes out um sort of programmer and
47:03
code comes out um sort of programmer and
47:03
code comes out um sort of programmer and that just you know that was a shock to
47:05
that just you know that was a shock to
47:05
that just you know that was a shock to me that your career is GNA suffer if you
47:07
me that your career is GNA suffer if you
47:07
me that your career is GNA suffer if you do that because I the two of the most
47:10
do that because I the two of the most
47:10
do that because I the two of the most talented people I ever worked with both
47:11
talented people I ever worked with both
47:11
talented people I ever worked with both worked with very early in my career in
47:13
worked with very early in my career in
47:13
worked with very early in my career in terms of writing code they were
47:15
terms of writing code they were
47:15
terms of writing code they were extraordinary but they had that mindset
47:18
extraordinary but they had that mindset
47:18
extraordinary but they had that mindset of of of you you know people like this
47:22
of of of you you know people like this
47:22
of of of you you know people like this they're they're awful at design
47:24
they're they're awful at design
47:24
they're they're awful at design sometimes they're great at coding which
47:26
sometimes they're great at coding which
47:26
sometimes they're great at coding which if they think something should be a
47:27
if they think something should be a
47:27
if they think something should be a certain way they don't understand why
47:29
certain way they don't understand why
47:29
certain way they don't understand why other people should should think it
47:31
other people should should think it
47:31
other people should should think it should be any different those people
47:32
should be any different those people
47:32
should be any different those people don't generally get along with people
47:34
don't generally get along with people
47:34
don't generally get along with people people get the impression that they
47:36
people get the impression that they
47:36
people get the impression that they don't care about them yeah you need to
47:38
don't care about them yeah you need to
47:39
don't care about them yeah you need to give the impression that you care about
47:40
give the impression that you care about
47:40
give the impression that you care about the people you're writing stuff for
47:42
the people you're writing stuff for
47:42
the people you're writing stuff for because those are going to be a key
47:44
because those are going to be a key
47:44
because those are going to be a key source of the opportunities that you're
47:47
source of the opportunities that you're
47:47
source of the opportunities that you're going to have at various points in your
47:50
going to have at various points in your
47:50
going to have at various points in your career if you just do the job and you
47:52
career if you just do the job and you
47:52
career if you just do the job and you just knock out the code and it can be
47:54
just knock out the code and it can be
47:54
just knock out the code and it can be spectacularly technically great
47:57
spectacularly technically great
47:57
spectacularly technically great nevertheless if you don't accomplish the
48:00
nevertheless if you don't accomplish the
48:00
nevertheless if you don't accomplish the the the objective of having them see
48:03
the the objective of having them see
48:03
the the objective of having them see that you care about their problem that
48:05
that you care about their problem that
48:05
that you care about their problem that you wanted to solve their problem you
48:07
you wanted to solve their problem you
48:07
you wanted to solve their problem you wanted to help them if if that's what
48:09
wanted to help them if if that's what
48:09
wanted to help them if if that's what they walk away with not just that you
48:11
they walk away with not just that you
48:11
they walk away with not just that you can write good code but that you care
48:13
can write good code but that you care
48:13
can write good code but that you care about their problem their ability to
48:15
about their problem their ability to
48:15
about their problem their ability to assist you in your career going forward
48:18
assist you in your career going forward
48:18
assist you in your career going forward is dramatically greater because if you
48:20
is dramatically greater because if you
48:20
is dramatically greater because if you don't get that across to them then
48:21
don't get that across to them then
48:21
don't get that across to them then they're never going to think about you
48:23
they're never going to think about you
48:23
they're never going to think about you again no matter how good a job you did
48:26
again no matter how good a job you did
48:26
again no matter how good a job you did yeah true commun very true yeah written
48:29
yeah true commun very true yeah written
48:29
yeah true commun very true yeah written verbal commun visual communication is so
48:32
verbal commun visual communication is so
48:32
verbal commun visual communication is so important in this and and and I I think
48:34
important in this and and and I I think
48:34
important in this and and and I I think you've all most of you alluded to this
48:37
you've all most of you alluded to this
48:37
you've all most of you alluded to this is is you know like Sean said is you
48:41
is is you know like Sean said is you
48:41
is is you know like Sean said is you know a lot of us don't want to do any of
48:43
know a lot of us don't want to do any of
48:43
know a lot of us don't want to do any of that we just want to code right that's
48:44
that we just want to code right that's
48:44
that we just want to code right that's what we love to do but you know that's
48:46
what we love to do but you know that's
48:46
what we love to do but you know that's not going to get you uh going you know
48:50
not going to get you uh going you know
48:50
not going to get you uh going you know moving up the career ladder if you if
48:53
moving up the career ladder if you if
48:53
moving up the career ladder if you if you don't find a way to communicate to
48:56
you don't find a way to communicate to
48:56
you don't find a way to communicate to not only your team but others you know
48:58
not only your team but others you know
48:58
not only your team but others you know in your company too yeah if I can jump
49:01
in your company too yeah if I can jump
49:01
in your company too yeah if I can jump on that I'm sorry Sean this is how this
49:03
on that I'm sorry Sean this is how this
49:03
on that I'm sorry Sean this is how this is going to be without a handra feature
49:06
is going to be without a handra feature
49:06
is going to be without a handra feature um but um what what I you know at
49:09
um but um what what I you know at
49:09
um but um what what I you know at Microsoft and I can only really speak
49:11
Microsoft and I can only really speak
49:12
Microsoft and I can only really speak for that as as far as career advancement
49:13
for that as as far as career advancement
49:13
for that as as far as career advancement and I can't really speak for you know
49:16
and I can't really speak for you know
49:16
and I can't really speak for you know Consulting and that kind of thing but
49:17
Consulting and that kind of thing but
49:17
Consulting and that kind of thing but maybe maybe there is an analog here but
49:19
maybe maybe there is an analog here but
49:19
maybe maybe there is an analog here but like there's a particular like level
49:22
like there's a particular like level
49:22
like there's a particular like level career level where you know you're
49:24
career level where you know you're
49:24
career level where you know you're compensated and all that that's that
49:27
compensated and all that that's that
49:27
compensated and all that that's that that's pretty much as good as you're
49:28
that's pretty much as good as you're
49:28
that's pretty much as good as you're ever going to get at coding and that's
49:30
ever going to get at coding and that's
49:30
ever going to get at coding and that's how they that that seems like well if
49:32
how they that that seems like well if
49:32
how they that that seems like well if you if you've hit this level of senior
49:35
you if you've hit this level of senior
49:35
you if you've hit this level of senior we're not expecting you to be you're
49:36
we're not expecting you to be you're
49:36
we're not expecting you to be you're you're expected to be the top notch at
49:38
you're expected to be the top notch at
49:38
you're expected to be the top notch at that point so going above that is
49:41
that point so going above that is
49:41
that point so going above that is everything else you know it requires
49:43
everything else you know it requires
49:43
everything else you know it requires you're GNA as you get and that's that's
49:45
you're GNA as you get and that's that's
49:45
you're GNA as you get and that's that's you know later in career stuff is you're
49:47
you know later in career stuff is you're
49:47
you know later in career stuff is you're you're going to grow scope right you're
49:49
you're going to grow scope right you're
49:49
you're going to grow scope right you're going to be working on more things
49:50
going to be working on more things
49:50
going to be working on more things you're going to be working with more
49:51
you're going to be working with more
49:51
you're going to be working with more people more teams you're going to be um
49:54
people more teams you're going to be um
49:54
people more teams you're going to be um needing to build not just like
49:57
needing to build not just like
49:57
needing to build not just like soft skills but like that's you know
50:00
soft skills but like that's you know
50:00
soft skills but like that's you know very much part of those interpersonal
50:02
very much part of those interpersonal
50:02
very much part of those interpersonal skills but also like the leadership
50:03
skills but also like the leadership
50:04
skills but also like the leadership skills like being able to actually lead
50:06
skills like being able to actually lead
50:06
skills like being able to actually lead and say and bring in all the opinions
50:08
and say and bring in all the opinions
50:08
and say and bring in all the opinions and come up with a conclusion and drive
50:10
and come up with a conclusion and drive
50:10
and come up with a conclusion and drive consensus and all those sorts of things
50:12
consensus and all those sorts of things
50:12
consensus and all those sorts of things that sound terrifying to uh you know an
50:16
that sound terrifying to uh you know an
50:16
that sound terrifying to uh you know an introvert who wants to sit coding all
50:18
introvert who wants to sit coding all
50:18
introvert who wants to sit coding all day yeah but that's that's what it
50:21
day yeah but that's that's what it
50:21
day yeah but that's that's what it that's what it where you go that's what
50:22
that's what it where you go that's what
50:22
that's what it where you go that's what it means and and one of the one of the
50:24
it means and and one of the one of the
50:24
it means and and one of the one of the results that comes out of that that you
50:27
results that comes out of that that you
50:27
results that comes out of that that you talk about there and and and the
50:28
talk about there and and and the
50:29
talk about there and and and the tendency of developers to want to be
50:30
tendency of developers to want to be
50:30
tendency of developers to want to be focusing on this thing is that our
50:32
focusing on this thing is that our
50:32
focusing on this thing is that our industry has a horrible horrible
50:36
industry has a horrible horrible
50:36
industry has a horrible horrible shortage of what I guess we could call
50:39
shortage of what I guess we could call
50:39
shortage of what I guess we could call facilitators people who do know how to
50:41
facilitators people who do know how to
50:41
facilitators people who do know how to lead a group through work through any of
50:44
lead a group through work through any of
50:44
lead a group through work through any of the conflicts between members of the
50:46
the conflicts between members of the
50:46
the conflicts between members of the group get to decisions good decisions in
50:49
group get to decisions good decisions in
50:49
group get to decisions good decisions in an expeditious way I end up going into
50:52
an expeditious way I end up going into
50:52
an expeditious way I end up going into clients a lot who just called me every
50:55
clients a lot who just called me every
50:55
clients a lot who just called me every couple of years and and say would you
50:57
couple of years and and say would you
50:57
couple of years and and say would you come and help us work through this
50:59
come and help us work through this
51:00
come and help us work through this because I mean we're talking about in
51:01
because I mean we're talking about in
51:02
because I mean we're talking about in some cases billion dollar companies
51:03
some cases billion dollar companies
51:03
some cases billion dollar companies don't have anybody that's good at that
51:06
don't have anybody that's good at that
51:06
don't have anybody that's good at that think about that you're talking about
51:07
think about that you're talking about
51:07
think about that you're talking about staffs of two and three hundred people
51:09
staffs of two and three hundred people
51:09
staffs of two and three hundred people in these companies and not one of them
51:11
in these companies and not one of them
51:11
in these companies and not one of them is able to leader group through an
51:13
is able to leader group through an
51:13
is able to leader group through an effective decision-making process and so
51:16
effective decision-making process and so
51:16
effective decision-making process and so if if that terrifies you and you don't
51:18
if if that terrifies you and you don't
51:18
if if that terrifies you and you don't want to do it okay but if you feel like
51:21
want to do it okay but if you feel like
51:21
want to do it okay but if you feel like that's something you're able to do well
51:22
that's something you're able to do well
51:22
that's something you're able to do well that will add a lot of value to your
51:24
that will add a lot of value to your
51:24
that will add a lot of value to your career yeah and that's quite frankly you
51:27
career yeah and that's quite frankly you
51:27
career yeah and that's quite frankly you know in in the past 10 years or more
51:31
know in in the past 10 years or more
51:31
know in in the past 10 years or more I've been trying
51:32
I've been trying
51:32
I've been trying to search for jobs exactly what you just
51:36
to search for jobs exactly what you just
51:36
to search for jobs exactly what you just explained how can I use my you know 20
51:39
explained how can I use my you know 20
51:39
explained how can I use my you know 20 30 years of knowledge to help people
51:42
30 years of knowledge to help people
51:42
30 years of knowledge to help people development projects not coding but
51:44
development projects not coding but
51:44
development projects not coding but doing exactly what you just said and and
51:47
doing exactly what you just said and and
51:47
doing exactly what you just said and and my experience is finding jobs like that
51:49
my experience is finding jobs like that
51:49
my experience is finding jobs like that is near impossible you know for a a wide
51:52
is near impossible you know for a a wide
51:52
is near impossible you know for a a wide variety of reasons but but that kind of
51:55
variety of reasons but but that kind of
51:55
variety of reasons but but that kind of I kind of wanted Mo topics a little bit
51:58
I kind of wanted Mo topics a little bit
51:58
I kind of wanted Mo topics a little bit uh and because this is one thing I
51:59
uh and because this is one thing I
51:59
uh and because this is one thing I really want to talk about before we run
52:01
really want to talk about before we run
52:01
really want to talk about before we run out of time and especially since I had
52:03
out of time and especially since I had
52:03
out of time and especially since I had some older developers on here is uh and
52:06
some older developers on here is uh and
52:07
some older developers on here is uh and this is one of the
52:08
this is one of the
52:08
this is one of the questions on the on the show notes is
52:10
questions on the on the show notes is
52:10
questions on the on the show notes is that is you know how how you all
52:13
that is you know how how you all
52:13
that is you know how how you all navigated the challenges of agism in
52:16
navigated the challenges of agism in
52:16
navigated the challenges of agism in this career which is something I'm I've
52:18
this career which is something I'm I've
52:18
this career which is something I'm I've hit a wall with right now and uh so I
52:21
hit a wall with right now and uh so I
52:21
hit a wall with right now and uh so I kind of wanted to see what other people
52:23
kind of wanted to see what other people
52:23
kind of wanted to see what other people think about
52:24
think about
52:24
think about that uh I I've been U running into that
52:28
that uh I I've been U running into that
52:28
that uh I I've been U running into that you know I I've um the end of one of my
52:30
you know I I've um the end of one of my
52:30
you know I I've um the end of one of my 15year Cycles started a couple of years
52:32
15year Cycles started a couple of years
52:32
15year Cycles started a couple of years ago and I've been sort of searching on
52:34
ago and I've been sort of searching on
52:34
ago and I've been sort of searching on what I want to do next whether that's
52:36
what I want to do next whether that's
52:36
what I want to do next whether that's continuing the consulting company that
52:38
continuing the consulting company that
52:38
continuing the consulting company that I've had since 2007 or uh figuring out
52:42
I've had since 2007 or uh figuring out
52:42
I've had since 2007 or uh figuring out new ways to teach because I spent a lot
52:44
new ways to teach because I spent a lot
52:44
new ways to teach because I spent a lot of time uh in sort of the teaching realm
52:46
of time uh in sort of the teaching realm
52:46
of time uh in sort of the teaching realm and and dipping my toe back into sending
52:48
and and dipping my toe back into sending
52:48
and and dipping my toe back into sending resumés out and seeing how that works
52:52
resumés out and seeing how that works
52:52
resumés out and seeing how that works and uh has been really a challenge
52:54
and uh has been really a challenge
52:54
and uh has been really a challenge because um I don't think it's just a
52:57
because um I don't think it's just a
52:58
because um I don't think it's just a agism but um something that uh David you
53:02
agism but um something that uh David you
53:02
agism but um something that uh David you mentioned uh uh early on and and that is
53:06
mentioned uh uh early on and and that is
53:06
mentioned uh uh early on and and that is agism plus the sort of um um uh salary
53:11
agism plus the sort of um um uh salary
53:11
agism plus the sort of um um uh salary um changes you know bill was it Billy
53:14
um changes you know bill was it Billy
53:14
um changes you know bill was it Billy that mentioned at 50 everyone loses
53:16
that mentioned at 50 everyone loses
53:17
that mentioned at 50 everyone loses their yeah their mind um I I think
53:21
their yeah their mind um I I think
53:21
their yeah their mind um I I think that's really really true uh my advice
53:24
that's really really true uh my advice
53:24
that's really really true uh my advice around that is that I don't know to fix
53:26
around that is that I don't know to fix
53:27
around that is that I don't know to fix the agism problem um but I do know that
53:31
the agism problem um but I do know that
53:31
the agism problem um but I do know that you should plan for it so what I mean by
53:34
you should plan for it so what I mean by
53:34
you should plan for it so what I mean by that is if you're
53:36
that is if you're
53:36
that is if you're making a lot of money right now please
53:38
making a lot of money right now please
53:38
making a lot of money right now please don't get into credit card debt and buy
53:41
don't get into credit card debt and buy
53:41
don't get into credit card debt and buy new cars every year because when it runs
53:44
new cars every year because when it runs
53:44
new cars every year because when it runs out you want to be on a solid footing
53:46
out you want to be on a solid footing
53:46
out you want to be on a solid footing yes you know we won't talk about you
53:47
yes you know we won't talk about you
53:48
yes you know we won't talk about you know saving for retirements and all that
53:49
know saving for retirements and all that
53:49
know saving for retirements and all that but just the logistics of when you have
53:51
but just the logistics of when you have
53:51
but just the logistics of when you have a down cycle if you're servicing a lot
53:55
a down cycle if you're servicing a lot
53:55
a down cycle if you're servicing a lot of debt your stress is going to be way
53:58
of debt your stress is going to be way
53:58
of debt your stress is going to be way higher just way higher yes and so uh I
54:01
higher just way higher yes and so uh I
54:02
higher just way higher yes and so uh I did that back in uh uh 200000 I thought
54:06
did that back in uh uh 200000 I thought
54:06
did that back in uh uh 200000 I thought everything was great and I I I I
54:09
everything was great and I I I I
54:09
everything was great and I I I I borrowed through the hilt because I
54:10
borrowed through the hilt because I
54:11
borrowed through the hilt because I thought it was never going to end and uh
54:14
thought it was never going to end and uh
54:14
thought it was never going to end and uh the DT Bubble Plus 911 it it ended it
54:19
the DT Bubble Plus 911 it it ended it
54:19
the DT Bubble Plus 911 it it ended it ended uh and so you know living on a
54:22
ended uh and so you know living on a
54:22
ended uh and so you know living on a cash basis has been really important to
54:23
cash basis has been really important to
54:23
cash basis has been really important to me and I I think that takes the pressure
54:25
me and I I think that takes the pressure
54:25
me and I I think that takes the pressure over having to take a job that you don't
54:27
over having to take a job that you don't
54:27
over having to take a job that you don't want as well which can hurt your career
54:30
want as well which can hurt your career
54:30
want as well which can hurt your career yeah definitely definitely can you know
54:33
yeah definitely definitely can you know
54:33
yeah definitely definitely can you know Sean tying that to something that was
54:35
Sean tying that to something that was
54:35
Sean tying that to something that was that we were talking about earlier that
54:37
that we were talking about earlier that
54:37
that we were talking about earlier that stress and I've been there too like
54:39
stress and I've been there too like
54:39
stress and I've been there too like before Microsoft I came saddled with
54:42
before Microsoft I came saddled with
54:42
before Microsoft I came saddled with like I don't I'll I'll throw a number I
54:44
like I don't I'll I'll throw a number I
54:44
like I don't I'll I'll throw a number I I was saddled with 70k in credit card
54:45
I was saddled with 70k in credit card
54:45
I was saddled with 70k in credit card debt when I joined Microsoft um and that
54:49
debt when I joined Microsoft um and that
54:49
debt when I joined Microsoft um and that stress from that makes it harder to deal
54:52
stress from that makes it harder to deal
54:52
stress from that makes it harder to deal with that techn stress right if you're
54:54
with that techn stress right if you're
54:54
with that techn stress right if you're not like clearing the deck for stress so
54:56
not like clearing the deck for stress so
54:57
not like clearing the deck for stress so that you can go and then like do the you
54:58
that you can go and then like do the you
54:58
that you can go and then like do the you know deal with the stress that like
54:59
know deal with the stress that like
55:00
know deal with the stress that like helps you like grow um you know where
55:03
helps you like grow um you know where
55:03
helps you like grow um you know where you're just you're dealing with the
55:04
you're just you're dealing with the
55:04
you're just you're dealing with the stress that you're just trying to get
55:06
stress that you're just trying to get
55:06
stress that you're just trying to get get your head above water H it's it's
55:08
get your head above water H it's it's
55:08
get your head above water H it's it's it's misery yeah I I got out of debt
55:11
it's misery yeah I I got out of debt
55:11
it's misery yeah I I got out of debt about 20 years ago and I cannot think of
55:14
about 20 years ago and I cannot think of
55:15
about 20 years ago and I cannot think of a more freeing more effective way to to
55:19
a more freeing more effective way to to
55:19
a more freeing more effective way to to manage the rest of your career than to
55:22
manage the rest of your career than to
55:22
manage the rest of your career than to not have to you know have that kind of
55:25
not have to you know have that kind of
55:25
not have to you know have that kind of uh stuff looming
55:27
uh stuff looming
55:27
uh stuff looming over your your head I do want to say on
55:30
over your your head I do want to say on
55:30
over your your head I do want to say on the on the subject of aism I don't know
55:33
the on the subject of aism I don't know
55:33
the on the subject of aism I don't know the answer uh but I will say that I
55:36
the answer uh but I will say that I
55:37
the answer uh but I will say that I think uh if there's any glimmer of hope
55:40
think uh if there's any glimmer of hope
55:40
think uh if there's any glimmer of hope um it's the connections that we've made
55:43
um it's the connections that we've made
55:43
um it's the connections that we've made in our career and how important it is
55:46
in our career and how important it is
55:46
in our career and how important it is that um you know to use the the terrible
55:50
that um you know to use the the terrible
55:50
that um you know to use the the terrible term you know to have a network but to
55:52
term you know to have a network but to
55:52
term you know to have a network but to to know people in the industry to know
55:55
to know people in the industry to know
55:55
to know people in the industry to know people who are who are also influential
55:58
people who are who are also influential
55:58
people who are who are also influential who are in positions of you know that
56:00
who are in positions of you know that
56:00
who are in positions of you know that can of influence right of or power and
56:05
can of influence right of or power and
56:05
can of influence right of or power and like the in the last year and a half
56:08
like the in the last year and a half
56:08
like the in the last year and a half that I've been like active seeking
56:12
that I've been like active seeking
56:12
that I've been like active seeking employment more than I I have in my
56:15
employment more than I I have in my
56:15
employment more than I I have in my entire
56:16
entire
56:16
entire career
56:18
career
56:18
career um sending resumes you know cold type
56:22
um sending resumes you know cold type
56:22
um sending resumes you know cold type things I I have not gotten one interview
56:25
things I I have not gotten one interview
56:25
things I I have not gotten one interview I haven't had inter a long time yeah so
56:28
I haven't had inter a long time yeah so
56:28
I haven't had inter a long time yeah so the only interviews that I've had are
56:31
the only interviews that I've had are
56:31
the only interviews that I've had are with folks that I had a connection be
56:35
with folks that I had a connection be
56:35
with folks that I had a connection be prior you know that I had a personal
56:37
prior you know that I had a personal
56:37
prior you know that I had a personal connection with who knew me or knew my
56:39
connection with who knew me or knew my
56:39
connection with who knew me or knew my reputation who knew um you know the the
56:43
reputation who knew um you know the the
56:43
reputation who knew um you know the the kind of work that I'm capable of doing
56:45
kind of work that I'm capable of doing
56:45
kind of work that I'm capable of doing that gave me the opportunity to have
56:48
that gave me the opportunity to have
56:48
that gave me the opportunity to have those conversations and to you know have
56:51
those conversations and to you know have
56:51
those conversations and to you know have a an interview with a potential U
56:55
a an interview with a potential U
56:55
a an interview with a potential U employer so I cannot stress enough uh
56:58
employer so I cannot stress enough uh
56:58
employer so I cannot stress enough uh this would be my number one tip that
57:01
this would be my number one tip that
57:01
this would be my number one tip that that you get involved in your community
57:04
that you get involved in your community
57:04
that you get involved in your community and you find ways that you can make
57:07
and you find ways that you can make
57:07
and you find ways that you can make yourself known in um the the technology
57:12
yourself known in um the the technology
57:12
yourself known in um the the technology that you work with and the the types of
57:14
that you work with and the the types of
57:15
that you work with and the the types of areas that you want to um you know
57:18
areas that you want to um you know
57:18
areas that you want to um you know invest in yeah I I would not be where I
57:21
invest in yeah I I would not be where I
57:21
invest in yeah I I would not be where I am if I didn't get involved in community
57:23
am if I didn't get involved in community
57:23
am if I didn't get involved in community flat out and I've written about this
57:25
flat out and I've written about this
57:25
flat out and I've written about this it's in my artic but flat out that
57:28
it's in my artic but flat out that
57:28
it's in my artic but flat out that really really changed the you know where
57:31
really really changed the you know where
57:31
really really changed the you know where my career was going was getting involved
57:33
my career was going was getting involved
57:33
my career was going was getting involved in community yeah I I think that
57:37
in community yeah I I think that
57:37
in community yeah I I think that building you know again the the bad word
57:39
building you know again the the bad word
57:39
building you know again the the bad word network is
57:40
network is
57:40
network is important I think that as you do it
57:43
important I think that as you do it
57:43
important I think that as you do it something to just be aware of is that uh
57:47
something to just be aware of is that uh
57:47
something to just be aware of is that uh you being kind to people people will
57:49
you being kind to people people will
57:49
you being kind to people people will absolutely remember and that means not
57:52
absolutely remember and that means not
57:52
absolutely remember and that means not coming across as arrogant or looking
57:55
coming across as arrogant or looking
57:55
coming across as arrogant or looking down at Junior dead or anything because
57:56
down at Junior dead or anything because
57:56
down at Junior dead or anything because you don't know where these people will
57:58
you don't know where these people will
57:58
you don't know where these people will be and if you don't have it in you which
58:00
be and if you don't have it in you which
58:00
be and if you don't have it in you which some people don't to just be kind and
58:02
some people don't to just be kind and
58:02
some people don't to just be kind and not trying to prove their intellect
58:04
not trying to prove their intellect
58:05
not trying to prove their intellect every time they open their mouth there's
58:07
every time they open their mouth there's
58:07
every time they open their mouth there's there's a a pragmatic reason for being
58:10
there's a a pragmatic reason for being
58:10
there's a a pragmatic reason for being kind anyway uh you know I've met so many
58:13
kind anyway uh you know I've met so many
58:13
kind anyway uh you know I've met so many people and uh that have come up to me
58:16
people and uh that have come up to me
58:16
people and uh that have come up to me years later and told me that what I was
58:20
years later and told me that what I was
58:20
years later and told me that what I was nice to them and they looked up to that
58:22
nice to them and they looked up to that
58:22
nice to them and they looked up to that and that's important you know I've had a
58:24
and that's important you know I've had a
58:24
and that's important you know I've had a couple people say the opposite don't
58:26
couple people say the opposite don't
58:26
couple people say the opposite don't don't get me wrong but um sure I think
58:29
don't get me wrong but um sure I think
58:29
don't get me wrong but um sure I think just uh having compassion for people
58:32
just uh having compassion for people
58:32
just uh having compassion for people that are trying to learn this especially
58:33
that are trying to learn this especially
58:33
that are trying to learn this especially when you're sort of in 30s 40s and 50s
58:36
when you're sort of in 30s 40s and 50s
58:36
when you're sort of in 30s 40s and 50s when you have enough experience behind
58:38
when you have enough experience behind
58:38
when you have enough experience behind you they're not your competition they're
58:41
you they're not your competition they're
58:41
you they're not your competition they're your community right right yeah Sean I I
58:44
your community right right yeah Sean I I
58:44
your community right right yeah Sean I I was actually going to bring that up too
58:46
was actually going to bring that up too
58:46
was actually going to bring that up too that it's not just about building out a
58:47
that it's not just about building out a
58:47
that it's not just about building out a network like horizontally like you know
58:51
network like horizontally like you know
58:51
network like horizontally like you know we all know each other but um but
58:53
we all know each other but um but
58:53
we all know each other but um but building it up you know if to deal help
58:56
building it up you know if to deal help
58:56
building it up you know if to deal help combat agism a little bit it's hard
58:59
combat agism a little bit it's hard
58:59
combat agism a little bit it's hard right this is this there's there's
59:00
right this is this there's there's
59:00
right this is this there's there's biases and and stigmas and it's and it's
59:02
biases and and stigmas and it's and it's
59:02
biases and and stigmas and it's and it's and it's it's really difficult and I'm I
59:04
and it's it's really difficult and I'm I
59:04
and it's it's really difficult and I'm I I'm sorry guys I hate hearing that but
59:08
I'm sorry guys I hate hearing that but
59:08
I'm sorry guys I hate hearing that but having that Network that's a little
59:09
having that Network that's a little
59:09
having that Network that's a little deeper agewise um you know mentoring
59:13
deeper agewise um you know mentoring
59:13
deeper agewise um you know mentoring people that are younger in career but
59:16
people that are younger in career but
59:16
people that are younger in career but also not just being more than nice like
59:18
also not just being more than nice like
59:18
also not just being more than nice like being an ally to help them in their
59:20
being an ally to help them in their
59:20
being an ally to help them in their career right um advocating for them when
59:24
career right um advocating for them when
59:24
career right um advocating for them when you know they're doing great stuff and
59:26
you know they're doing great stuff and
59:26
you know they're doing great stuff and making sure that's seen um you know and
59:29
making sure that's seen um you know and
59:29
making sure that's seen um you know and again it depends on the environment
59:30
again it depends on the environment
59:30
again it depends on the environment you're working on in how much uh you
59:33
you're working on in how much uh you
59:33
you're working on in how much uh you know that how much impact that has but
59:36
know that how much impact that has but
59:36
know that how much impact that has but it can go a long ways towards making
59:38
it can go a long ways towards making
59:38
it can go a long ways towards making that Network more than just kind of a
59:40
that Network more than just kind of a
59:41
that Network more than just kind of a LinkedIn graph and like you know real
59:44
LinkedIn graph and like you know real
59:44
LinkedIn graph and like you know real people stuff which as we said that's
59:46
people stuff which as we said that's
59:46
people stuff which as we said that's what this is turns out this is about
59:48
what this is turns out this is about
59:48
what this is turns out this is about yeah yeah I definitely think like all of
59:50
yeah yeah I definitely think like all of
59:50
yeah yeah I definitely think like all of us like when you're especially you're
59:52
us like when you're especially you're
59:52
us like when you're especially you're growing up at a big company like at some
59:54
growing up at a big company like at some
59:54
growing up at a big company like at some point you had someone that worked with
59:57
point you had someone that worked with
59:57
point you had someone that worked with you and who was your mentor and helped
59:59
you and who was your mentor and helped
59:59
you and who was your mentor and helped you go through things and I think you
1:00:01
you go through things and I think you
1:00:01
you go through things and I think you really as you get up in your career you
1:00:03
really as you get up in your career you
1:00:03
really as you get up in your career you have to ask yourself who is looking at
1:00:06
have to ask yourself who is looking at
1:00:06
have to ask yourself who is looking at me the way I looked at that person like
1:00:08
me the way I looked at that person like
1:00:08
me the way I looked at that person like who thinks of me as the person that
1:00:10
who thinks of me as the person that
1:00:10
who thinks of me as the person that helped them get over those humps and
1:00:11
helped them get over those humps and
1:00:11
helped them get over those humps and helped them kind of like advance and
1:00:13
helped them kind of like advance and
1:00:13
helped them kind of like advance and learn and I think there's you know kind
1:00:15
learn and I think there's you know kind
1:00:15
learn and I think there's you know kind of two roles you take with that some
1:00:16
of two roles you take with that some
1:00:16
of two roles you take with that some people turn into managers or lead roles
1:00:19
people turn into managers or lead roles
1:00:19
people turn into managers or lead roles and then that's a very natural place
1:00:20
and then that's a very natural place
1:00:20
and then that's a very natural place where you can have that but if you're
1:00:22
where you can have that but if you're
1:00:22
where you can have that but if you're not that um you're not a lead you're
1:00:24
not that um you're not a lead you're
1:00:24
not that um you're not a lead you're still like an individual contributor
1:00:26
still like an individual contributor
1:00:26
still like an individual contributor like you can and probably should like
1:00:28
like you can and probably should like
1:00:28
like you can and probably should like figure out like who is that Junior who
1:00:30
figure out like who is that Junior who
1:00:30
figure out like who is that Junior who is that Junior person or persons that I
1:00:32
is that Junior person or persons that I
1:00:32
is that Junior person or persons that I am helping who who do I want to look up
1:00:34
am helping who who do I want to look up
1:00:34
am helping who who do I want to look up to me the way I look up to that person
1:00:37
to me the way I look up to that person
1:00:37
to me the way I look up to that person who helped me get through the ranks yeah
1:00:39
who helped me get through the ranks yeah
1:00:39
who helped me get through the ranks yeah and one and one thing because I want to
1:00:41
and one and one thing because I want to
1:00:41
and one and one thing because I want to move on to our our one question here in
1:00:43
move on to our our one question here in
1:00:43
move on to our our one question here in a second but you know one thing is is
1:00:46
a second but you know one thing is is
1:00:46
a second but you know one thing is is those of younger developers or more shy
1:00:49
those of younger developers or more shy
1:00:49
those of younger developers or more shy people you know don't be afraid to ask
1:00:51
people you know don't be afraid to ask
1:00:51
people you know don't be afraid to ask somebody right and because nothing's
1:00:53
somebody right and because nothing's
1:00:53
somebody right and because nothing's going to happen unless you ask right and
1:00:55
going to happen unless you ask right and
1:00:56
going to happen unless you ask right and so if there's somebody you look up to
1:00:57
so if there's somebody you look up to
1:00:58
so if there's somebody you look up to you know like a billy Hollis reach out
1:01:00
you know like a billy Hollis reach out
1:01:00
you know like a billy Hollis reach out to him I mean I mean you might get
1:01:02
to him I mean I mean you might get
1:01:02
to him I mean I mean you might get rejected you know but but you're not
1:01:06
rejected you know but but you're not
1:01:06
rejected you know but but you're not you're always going to be rejected if
1:01:07
you're always going to be rejected if
1:01:07
you're always going to be rejected if you don't try right and so you've got to
1:01:11
you don't try right and so you've got to
1:01:11
you don't try right and so you've got to get out of your comfort zone and
1:01:12
get out of your comfort zone and
1:01:12
get out of your comfort zone and actually reach out you know because
1:01:15
actually reach out you know because
1:01:15
actually reach out you know because there's many of us you know I would say
1:01:17
there's many of us you know I would say
1:01:17
there's many of us you know I would say everybody on this call that are more
1:01:19
everybody on this call that are more
1:01:19
everybody on this call that are more than willing to to help people right but
1:01:22
than willing to to help people right but
1:01:22
than willing to to help people right but you have to be the one to ask for it
1:01:24
you have to be the one to ask for it
1:01:24
you have to be the one to ask for it right so I just want to say it it's not
1:01:28
right so I just want to say it it's not
1:01:28
right so I just want to say it it's not weird to be hesitant to reach out to
1:01:31
weird to be hesitant to reach out to
1:01:31
weird to be hesitant to reach out to like someone like I'm 20 years into my
1:01:33
like someone like I'm 20 years into my
1:01:33
like someone like I'm 20 years into my career the other day I was like arguing
1:01:35
career the other day I was like arguing
1:01:35
career the other day I was like arguing with someone on teens and I and I it
1:01:37
with someone on teens and I and I it
1:01:37
with someone on teens and I and I it took me and I don't know why 20 years to
1:01:39
took me and I don't know why 20 years to
1:01:39
took me and I don't know why 20 years to still have this problem and me just like
1:01:40
still have this problem and me just like
1:01:40
still have this problem and me just like messaged them privately like hey let's
1:01:42
messaged them privately like hey let's
1:01:42
messaged them privately like hey let's just get on a car we call real quick man
1:01:44
just get on a car we call real quick man
1:01:44
just get on a car we call real quick man like let's just we're clearly we're just
1:01:46
like let's just we're clearly we're just
1:01:46
like let's just we're clearly we're just something's wrong here let's just get on
1:01:48
something's wrong here let's just get on
1:01:48
something's wrong here let's just get on a call and talk to each other 20 years
1:01:49
a call and talk to each other 20 years
1:01:49
a call and talk to each other 20 years and I still have like social hesitation
1:01:52
and I still have like social hesitation
1:01:52
and I still have like social hesitation in that so it's not weird to feel that
1:01:54
in that so it's not weird to feel that
1:01:54
in that so it's not weird to feel that way no no
1:01:56
way no no
1:01:56
way no no but the number of times I've reached out
1:01:58
but the number of times I've reached out
1:01:58
but the number of times I've reached out with someone said hey I want to talk hey
1:01:59
with someone said hey I want to talk hey
1:01:59
with someone said hey I want to talk hey I want to learn more hey let's grab some
1:02:01
I want to learn more hey let's grab some
1:02:01
I want to learn more hey let's grab some coffee like the number of times that has
1:02:03
coffee like the number of times that has
1:02:03
coffee like the number of times that has been a successful Thing versus
1:02:04
been a successful Thing versus
1:02:04
been a successful Thing versus non-successful is like mountains like it
1:02:07
non-successful is like mountains like it
1:02:07
non-successful is like mountains like it is just porters of magnitude well you
1:02:10
is just porters of magnitude well you
1:02:10
is just porters of magnitude well you know one thing you know I want to say
1:02:12
know one thing you know I want to say
1:02:12
know one thing you know I want to say that Simon has said to me many many
1:02:14
that Simon has said to me many many
1:02:14
that Simon has said to me many many times he goes Dave how do you get all
1:02:17
times he goes Dave how do you get all
1:02:17
times he goes Dave how do you get all these awesome guests right and my answer
1:02:20
these awesome guests right and my answer
1:02:20
these awesome guests right and my answer is I
1:02:21
is I
1:02:21
is I ask that's that's the secret you know
1:02:25
ask that's that's the secret you know
1:02:25
ask that's that's the secret you know they can't say yes if you don't ask
1:02:27
they can't say yes if you don't ask
1:02:27
they can't say yes if you don't ask exactly and you've been
1:02:30
exactly and you've been
1:02:30
exactly and you've been nice so uh the the question we have
1:02:33
nice so uh the the question we have
1:02:33
nice so uh the the question we have which is interesting is uh what do we
1:02:35
which is interesting is uh what do we
1:02:35
which is interesting is uh what do we all think about project manager should
1:02:37
all think about project manager should
1:02:37
all think about project manager should it be a technical or
1:02:39
it be a technical or
1:02:39
it be a technical or managerial uh what do you guys all
1:02:43
managerial uh what do you guys all
1:02:43
managerial uh what do you guys all think I would say it can be both I think
1:02:46
think I would say it can be both I think
1:02:46
think I would say it can be both I think you can be you there are there are
1:02:49
you can be you there are there are
1:02:49
you can be you there are there are different styles of management and they
1:02:51
different styles of management and they
1:02:51
different styles of management and they can both be very successful I have
1:02:53
can both be very successful I have
1:02:53
can both be very successful I have worked with managers who are purely like
1:02:55
worked with managers who are purely like
1:02:55
worked with managers who are purely like a people manager I just facilitate this
1:02:58
a people manager I just facilitate this
1:02:58
a people manager I just facilitate this way and they're very successful I tend
1:03:00
way and they're very successful I tend
1:03:00
way and they're very successful I tend to be one who's more on the tech I'm a
1:03:02
to be one who's more on the tech I'm a
1:03:02
to be one who's more on the tech I'm a manager and I tend to be more on the
1:03:04
manager and I tend to be more on the
1:03:04
manager and I tend to be more on the technical side of management I hope I'm
1:03:06
technical side of management I hope I'm
1:03:06
technical side of management I hope I'm successful um the one thing I will tell
1:03:09
successful um the one thing I will tell
1:03:09
successful um the one thing I will tell that I kind of caution people who want
1:03:10
that I kind of caution people who want
1:03:11
that I kind of caution people who want to be more of a technical manager um and
1:03:13
to be more of a technical manager um and
1:03:13
to be more of a technical manager um and be a techn contributor is the one thing
1:03:15
be a techn contributor is the one thing
1:03:15
be a techn contributor is the one thing I tell people is I've always had the
1:03:17
I tell people is I've always had the
1:03:17
I tell people is I've always had the mentality as a manager it's like I code
1:03:20
mentality as a manager it's like I code
1:03:20
mentality as a manager it's like I code and I'm still technically involved
1:03:22
and I'm still technically involved
1:03:22
and I'm still technically involved because I enjoy helping out with the
1:03:23
because I enjoy helping out with the
1:03:23
because I enjoy helping out with the architecture I enjoy helping people want
1:03:25
architecture I enjoy helping people want
1:03:26
architecture I enjoy helping people want to know enough that I can help my team
1:03:27
to know enough that I can help my team
1:03:27
to know enough that I can help my team design their features make sure it's
1:03:29
design their features make sure it's
1:03:29
design their features make sure it's fitting into our product the right way
1:03:31
fitting into our product the right way
1:03:31
fitting into our product the right way and that we're building the right things
1:03:32
and that we're building the right things
1:03:33
and that we're building the right things and I still code because it's what keeps
1:03:34
and I still code because it's what keeps
1:03:34
and I still code because it's what keeps me sane I think I would lose my mind if
1:03:36
me sane I think I would lose my mind if
1:03:36
me sane I think I would lose my mind if I didn't check in code every now and
1:03:37
I didn't check in code every now and
1:03:37
I didn't check in code every now and then but if you look at what I code as a
1:03:40
then but if you look at what I code as a
1:03:40
then but if you look at what I code as a manager I'm always helping out on the
1:03:42
manager I'm always helping out on the
1:03:42
manager I'm always helping out on the margins it's like hey no one wants to go
1:03:44
margins it's like hey no one wants to go
1:03:44
margins it's like hey no one wants to go fix the test infrastructure I'll go fix
1:03:47
fix the test infrastructure I'll go fix
1:03:47
fix the test infrastructure I'll go fix like that will be my contribution Jared
1:03:48
like that will be my contribution Jared
1:03:48
like that will be my contribution Jared I will tell you Jared takes the crap
1:03:50
I will tell you Jared takes the crap
1:03:50
I will tell you Jared takes the crap jobs yeah he does so everybody else can
1:03:52
jobs yeah he does so everybody else can
1:03:52
jobs yeah he does so everybody else can shine exactly because it's like I I I
1:03:55
shine exactly because it's like I I I
1:03:55
shine exactly because it's like I I I feel like removing roadblocks from my
1:03:57
feel like removing roadblocks from my
1:03:57
feel like removing roadblocks from my team to do the big things that they want
1:03:59
team to do the big things that they want
1:03:59
team to do the big things that they want to do to be successful and so I often
1:04:01
to do to be successful and so I often
1:04:01
to do to be successful and so I often like there's still like a couple of
1:04:02
like there's still like a couple of
1:04:02
like there's still like a couple of areas of the compiler I own and I often
1:04:04
areas of the compiler I own and I often
1:04:04
areas of the compiler I own and I often tell people like if anyone wants to take
1:04:06
tell people like if anyone wants to take
1:04:06
tell people like if anyone wants to take that away from me like you know feel
1:04:08
that away from me like you know feel
1:04:08
that away from me like you know feel free I'll I'll gladly see this feature
1:04:10
free I'll I'll gladly see this feature
1:04:10
free I'll I'll gladly see this feature area to someone and then I'll just go
1:04:11
area to someone and then I'll just go
1:04:12
area to someone and then I'll just go pick up some other crap job um so I do
1:04:14
pick up some other crap job um so I do
1:04:14
pick up some other crap job um so I do want to encourage people like if you're
1:04:15
want to encourage people like if you're
1:04:15
want to encourage people like if you're a technical manager still realize like
1:04:17
a technical manager still realize like
1:04:17
a technical manager still realize like your job is to make your people
1:04:19
your job is to make your people
1:04:19
your job is to make your people successful and think about your
1:04:21
successful and think about your
1:04:21
successful and think about your technical role in that way it's like I'm
1:04:24
technical role in that way it's like I'm
1:04:24
technical role in that way it's like I'm I you shouldn't be building the big ch
1:04:26
I you shouldn't be building the big ch
1:04:26
I you shouldn't be building the big ch feature doing the things that help your
1:04:29
feature doing the things that help your
1:04:29
feature doing the things that help your team members build a big shiny feature
1:04:31
team members build a big shiny feature
1:04:31
team members build a big shiny feature right right exactly I think to become a
1:04:33
right right exactly I think to become a
1:04:33
right right exactly I think to become a uh a technical manager you have to let
1:04:35
uh a technical manager you have to let
1:04:35
uh a technical manager you have to let go of one thing is is the code you're
1:04:38
go of one thing is is the code you're
1:04:38
go of one thing is is the code you're looking at good or uh is the code you're
1:04:41
looking at good or uh is the code you're
1:04:41
looking at good or uh is the code you're looking at bad or is it just not written
1:04:43
looking at bad or is it just not written
1:04:43
looking at bad or is it just not written the way you would have written it right
1:04:46
the way you would have written it right
1:04:46
the way you would have written it right it's a there's a big difference between
1:04:47
it's a there's a big difference between
1:04:47
it's a there's a big difference between the two and really getting your head
1:04:49
the two and really getting your head
1:04:49
the two and really getting your head around that I think is important I
1:04:51
around that I think is important I
1:04:51
around that I think is important I actually I I agree with you and I also
1:04:54
actually I I agree with you and I also
1:04:54
actually I I agree with you and I also think it applies to individual contribut
1:04:56
think it applies to individual contribut
1:04:56
think it applies to individual contribut like in a in a team where you're like
1:04:58
like in a in a team where you're like
1:04:58
like in a in a team where you're like code reviewing that is important right
1:05:01
code reviewing that is important right
1:05:01
code reviewing that is important right to not just be like no make it like mine
1:05:04
to not just be like no make it like mine
1:05:04
to not just be like no make it like mine yeah yeah yeah that's that's true I I
1:05:07
yeah yeah yeah that's that's true I I
1:05:07
yeah yeah yeah that's that's true I I just want to say one thing about this
1:05:08
just want to say one thing about this
1:05:08
just want to say one thing about this really quick and that is uh the best uh
1:05:13
really quick and that is uh the best uh
1:05:13
really quick and that is uh the best uh project managers I've known have a
1:05:15
project managers I've known have a
1:05:15
project managers I've known have a technical background and the worst ones
1:05:18
technical background and the worst ones
1:05:18
technical background and the worst ones don't you know and that's just my
1:05:20
don't you know and that's just my
1:05:20
don't you know and that's just my experience but uh I think to to answer
1:05:23
experience but uh I think to to answer
1:05:23
experience but uh I think to to answer ganesha's question is I think you have
1:05:25
ganesha's question is I think you have
1:05:25
ganesha's question is I think you have to be good at both right if you're
1:05:28
to be good at both right if you're
1:05:28
to be good at both right if you're really going to be successful and really
1:05:29
really going to be successful and really
1:05:29
really going to be successful and really put out you know a product or a service
1:05:31
put out you know a product or a service
1:05:31
put out you know a product or a service that the users love and will pay for uh
1:05:34
that the users love and will pay for uh
1:05:35
that the users love and will pay for uh I think you have to be both that's my
1:05:37
I think you have to be both that's my
1:05:37
I think you have to be both that's my opinion as long as you're not treating
1:05:40
opinion as long as you're not treating
1:05:40
opinion as long as you're not treating your staff as your assistants yeah I'm
1:05:42
your staff as your assistants yeah I'm
1:05:42
your staff as your assistants yeah I'm going to micromanaging yeah yeah yeah
1:05:45
going to micromanaging yeah yeah yeah
1:05:45
going to micromanaging yeah yeah yeah yeah micromanagement Will dist I I
1:05:48
yeah micromanagement Will dist I I
1:05:48
yeah micromanagement Will dist I I recently worked on a team at Verizon
1:05:50
recently worked on a team at Verizon
1:05:50
recently worked on a team at Verizon Wireless that the whole team was
1:05:52
Wireless that the whole team was
1:05:52
Wireless that the whole team was destroyed because of micromanagement and
1:05:55
destroyed because of micromanagement and
1:05:55
destroyed because of micromanagement and uh so
1:05:58
uh so
1:05:58
uh so um oh you're welcome ganes uh the next
1:06:01
um oh you're welcome ganes uh the next
1:06:01
um oh you're welcome ganes uh the next thing I want to talk about really quick
1:06:02
thing I want to talk about really quick
1:06:02
thing I want to talk about really quick before we run out of time I'm not used
1:06:05
before we run out of time I'm not used
1:06:05
before we run out of time I'm not used to doing an hour and a half show is uh
1:06:07
to doing an hour and a half show is uh
1:06:07
to doing an hour and a half show is uh is we've we've talked about this already
1:06:10
is we've we've talked about this already
1:06:10
is we've we've talked about this already but you know how about soft skills you
1:06:12
but you know how about soft skills you
1:06:13
but you know how about soft skills you know what what are the good soft skills
1:06:14
know what what are the good soft skills
1:06:14
know what what are the good soft skills people besides communication uh need to
1:06:17
people besides communication uh need to
1:06:17
people besides communication uh need to know uh to to to last a long time in
1:06:20
know uh to to to last a long time in
1:06:21
know uh to to to last a long time in this
1:06:22
this
1:06:22
this career conflict resolution and being
1:06:24
career conflict resolution and being
1:06:24
career conflict resolution and being willing to have conflict those are the
1:06:28
willing to have conflict those are the
1:06:28
willing to have conflict those are the the two pieces the first the second one
1:06:29
the two pieces the first the second one
1:06:29
the two pieces the first the second one I think is more important is a polyana
1:06:33
I think is more important is a polyana
1:06:33
I think is more important is a polyana or I'm just going to save my stay in my
1:06:35
or I'm just going to save my stay in my
1:06:35
or I'm just going to save my stay in my safe place doesn't help doesn't help at
1:06:39
safe place doesn't help doesn't help at
1:06:39
safe place doesn't help doesn't help at all because if you can't voice the
1:06:41
all because if you can't voice the
1:06:41
all because if you can't voice the things that you're unhappy about you're
1:06:43
things that you're unhappy about you're
1:06:43
things that you're unhappy about you're going to stay unhappy and your
1:06:46
going to stay unhappy and your
1:06:46
going to stay unhappy and your performance is going to go down and it
1:06:47
performance is going to go down and it
1:06:47
performance is going to go down and it it will be noticed yes uh you're not
1:06:49
it will be noticed yes uh you're not
1:06:49
it will be noticed yes uh you're not causing trouble just because you're
1:06:51
causing trouble just because you're
1:06:51
causing trouble just because you're voicing your opinion right right even
1:06:55
voicing your opinion right right even
1:06:55
voicing your opinion right right even even just the language that you use yeah
1:06:58
even just the language that you use yeah
1:06:58
even just the language that you use yeah sometimes can you don't realize how big
1:07:01
sometimes can you don't realize how big
1:07:01
sometimes can you don't realize how big a difference it can make I I I don't
1:07:03
a difference it can make I I I don't
1:07:03
a difference it can make I I I don't know that I've ever said in in when you
1:07:07
know that I've ever said in in when you
1:07:07
know that I've ever said in in when you get into a conflict I disagree with you
1:07:10
get into a conflict I disagree with you
1:07:10
get into a conflict I disagree with you what I say is I challenge that yeah okay
1:07:14
what I say is I challenge that yeah okay
1:07:14
what I say is I challenge that yeah okay which is a much softer way to be able to
1:07:16
which is a much softer way to be able to
1:07:16
which is a much softer way to be able to get into a discussion of what you don't
1:07:19
get into a discussion of what you don't
1:07:19
get into a discussion of what you don't agree on yes yes I would say also
1:07:23
agree on yes yes I would say also
1:07:23
agree on yes yes I would say also understanding your position in power in
1:07:27
understanding your position in power in
1:07:27
understanding your position in power in those situations right um with those
1:07:29
those situations right um with those
1:07:29
those situations right um with those sofware skills right being cognizant of
1:07:32
sofware skills right being cognizant of
1:07:32
sofware skills right being cognizant of what your words mean coming from you uh
1:07:36
what your words mean coming from you uh
1:07:36
what your words mean coming from you uh sometimes is is a huge deal right um as
1:07:39
sometimes is is a huge deal right um as
1:07:39
sometimes is is a huge deal right um as as Billy says like that turn a phrase it
1:07:41
as Billy says like that turn a phrase it
1:07:41
as Billy says like that turn a phrase it seems like oh come on no it's real right
1:07:44
seems like oh come on no it's real right
1:07:44
seems like oh come on no it's real right coming from Billy Hollis I'd be
1:07:46
coming from Billy Hollis I'd be
1:07:46
coming from Billy Hollis I'd be terrified he's like I disagree with
1:07:48
terrified he's like I disagree with
1:07:48
terrified he's like I disagree with everything Dustin said I'd be like I'm
1:07:51
everything Dustin said I'd be like I'm
1:07:51
everything Dustin said I'd be like I'm out I quit right but over
1:07:57
but but really it's true and and it's
1:07:59
but but really it's true and and it's
1:07:59
but but really it's true and and it's got to be that you recognize like what
1:08:03
got to be that you recognize like what
1:08:03
got to be that you recognize like what your opin how you how whether your
1:08:05
your opin how you how whether your
1:08:05
your opin how you how whether your opinion matters how much it matters and
1:08:07
opinion matters how much it matters and
1:08:07
opinion matters how much it matters and you know being able to then kind of
1:08:09
you know being able to then kind of
1:08:09
you know being able to then kind of shape how you how you communicate around
1:08:11
shape how you how you communicate around
1:08:11
shape how you how you communicate around that yeah and not getting entrenched yes
1:08:14
that yeah and not getting entrenched yes
1:08:14
that yeah and not getting entrenched yes yeah and and never communicate just to
1:08:16
yeah and and never communicate just to
1:08:16
yeah and and never communicate just to make yourself look smarter right that
1:08:19
make yourself look smarter right that
1:08:19
make yourself look smarter right that that that never works and will just
1:08:22
that that never works and will just
1:08:22
that that never works and will just alienate people in an instant if you do
1:08:24
alienate people in an instant if you do
1:08:24
alienate people in an instant if you do that yeah I uh I think it was uh um
1:08:29
that yeah I uh I think it was uh um
1:08:29
that yeah I uh I think it was uh um Richard Campbell that I first heard uh
1:08:31
Richard Campbell that I first heard uh
1:08:31
Richard Campbell that I first heard uh say this he said you've already got the
1:08:33
say this he said you've already got the
1:08:33
say this he said you've already got the job stop trying to convince me to hire
1:08:37
job stop trying to convince me to hire
1:08:37
job stop trying to convince me to hire you like that that happens a lot in that
1:08:41
you like that that happens a lot in that
1:08:41
you like that that happens a lot in that you know a lot of us have fragile Egos
1:08:43
you know a lot of us have fragile Egos
1:08:43
you know a lot of us have fragile Egos and you know and and and knowing that
1:08:46
and you know and and and knowing that
1:08:46
and you know and and and knowing that people are in different places uh and at
1:08:49
people are in different places uh and at
1:08:49
people are in different places uh and at the end of that the best advice I ever
1:08:52
the end of that the best advice I ever
1:08:52
the end of that the best advice I ever got was being willing to say I don't
1:08:54
got was being willing to say I don't
1:08:54
got was being willing to say I don't know yeah
1:08:56
know yeah
1:08:56
know yeah there's a huge power in Just let's
1:08:59
there's a huge power in Just let's
1:08:59
there's a huge power in Just let's figure it out or can you help me figure
1:09:02
figure it out or can you help me figure
1:09:02
figure it out or can you help me figure this out you don't have to remember
1:09:04
this out you don't have to remember
1:09:04
this out you don't have to remember every syntax in your head you don't have
1:09:06
every syntax in your head you don't have
1:09:06
every syntax in your head you don't have to and it very much feels like you have
1:09:08
to and it very much feels like you have
1:09:08
to and it very much feels like you have to because you see people present or do
1:09:10
to because you see people present or do
1:09:10
to because you see people present or do videos and they have everything at the
1:09:12
videos and they have everything at the
1:09:12
videos and they have everything at the tip of their fingers because they've
1:09:14
tip of their fingers because they've
1:09:14
tip of their fingers because they've practiced it 34 times and they've got a
1:09:16
practiced it 34 times and they've got a
1:09:16
practiced it 34 times and they've got a script in their head right right that is
1:09:18
script in their head right right that is
1:09:18
script in their head right right that is not the real world no yeah true dealing
1:09:23
not the real world no yeah true dealing
1:09:23
not the real world no yeah true dealing with conflict has been one of the
1:09:25
with conflict has been one of the
1:09:25
with conflict has been one of the hardest things for me to learn in my
1:09:28
hardest things for me to learn in my
1:09:28
hardest things for me to learn in my career you know how to because I have
1:09:31
career you know how to because I have
1:09:31
career you know how to because I have literally quit jobs and you know or
1:09:34
literally quit jobs and you know or
1:09:34
literally quit jobs and you know or found other jobs to avoid having
1:09:37
found other jobs to avoid having
1:09:37
found other jobs to avoid having conflict in the jobs that I was at at
1:09:40
conflict in the jobs that I was at at
1:09:40
conflict in the jobs that I was at at the time and so um I think one of the
1:09:44
the time and so um I think one of the
1:09:44
the time and so um I think one of the most amazing
1:09:45
most amazing
1:09:45
most amazing tools that I have learned in the last 12
1:09:50
tools that I have learned in the last 12
1:09:50
tools that I have learned in the last 12 15
1:09:51
15
1:09:51
15 years is a perspective on conflict and
1:09:56
years is a perspective on conflict and
1:09:56
years is a perspective on conflict and and that is uh someone taught me that a
1:10:01
and that is uh someone taught me that a
1:10:01
and that is uh someone taught me that a one way to look at conflict is that you
1:10:04
one way to look at conflict is that you
1:10:04
one way to look at conflict is that you and that other person or team or what
1:10:07
and that other person or team or what
1:10:07
and that other person or team or what whoever that other side of the story is
1:10:10
whoever that other side of the story is
1:10:10
whoever that other side of the story is that you're having conflict with one
1:10:13
that you're having conflict with one
1:10:13
that you're having conflict with one they're not your enemy they're you know
1:10:17
they're not your enemy they're you know
1:10:17
they're not your enemy they're you know they deserve respect they they're part
1:10:18
they deserve respect they they're part
1:10:19
they deserve respect they they're part of your you know if you're part of the
1:10:20
of your you know if you're part of the
1:10:20
of your you know if you're part of the same company you're you're on the same
1:10:22
same company you're you're on the same
1:10:22
same company you're you're on the same team right you should all have you're
1:10:24
team right you should all have you're
1:10:24
team right you should all have you're working towards the same thing um but
1:10:27
working towards the same thing um but
1:10:27
working towards the same thing um but number two is think of that problem
1:10:33
number two is think of that problem
1:10:33
number two is think of that problem as as something that you and that other
1:10:36
as as something that you and that other
1:10:36
as as something that you and that other person or other team can solve together
1:10:39
person or other team can solve together
1:10:39
person or other team can solve together to to to disconnect the problem from
1:10:43
to to to disconnect the problem from
1:10:43
to to to disconnect the problem from that person right uh so that it's not
1:10:47
that person right uh so that it's not
1:10:47
that person right uh so that it's not you and them going head-to-head and and
1:10:50
you and them going head-to-head and and
1:10:50
you and them going head-to-head and and fighting it's hey how can we you know
1:10:53
fighting it's hey how can we you know
1:10:53
fighting it's hey how can we you know here's the problem objectively
1:10:55
here's the problem objectively
1:10:55
here's the problem objectively how can you and I work together to make
1:10:59
how can you and I work together to make
1:10:59
how can you and I work together to make this situation better and I think that
1:11:03
this situation better and I think that
1:11:03
this situation better and I think that perspective really really helped me to
1:11:06
perspective really really helped me to
1:11:06
perspective really really helped me to um embrace the power of you know good
1:11:10
um embrace the power of you know good
1:11:10
um embrace the power of you know good conflict resolution so that you know we
1:11:13
conflict resolution so that you know we
1:11:13
conflict resolution so that you know we could all be better for it in the end
1:11:17
could all be better for it in the end
1:11:17
could all be better for it in the end yeah that's the conflict re uh
1:11:21
yeah that's the conflict re uh
1:11:21
yeah that's the conflict re uh resolution is diffic it's always been
1:11:24
resolution is diffic it's always been
1:11:24
resolution is diffic it's always been difficult for me it always be difficult
1:11:26
difficult for me it always be difficult
1:11:26
difficult for me it always be difficult I try really hard to be better at it but
1:11:29
I try really hard to be better at it but
1:11:29
I try really hard to be better at it but like I think a lot of you have already
1:11:30
like I think a lot of you have already
1:11:30
like I think a lot of you have already said is is I try to you know my way of
1:11:33
said is is I try to you know my way of
1:11:33
said is is I try to you know my way of dealing with it you you said this daveid
1:11:35
dealing with it you you said this daveid
1:11:35
dealing with it you you said this daveid my way of dealing with it is avoiding it
1:11:37
my way of dealing with it is avoiding it
1:11:37
my way of dealing with it is avoiding it right and and that doesn't deal with it
1:11:39
right and and that doesn't deal with it
1:11:39
right and and that doesn't deal with it right and so I've learned that the hard
1:11:42
right and so I've learned that the hard
1:11:42
right and so I've learned that the hard way you know throughout my life and and
1:11:44
way you know throughout my life and and
1:11:44
way you know throughout my life and and I'm trying constantly to be better at
1:11:46
I'm trying constantly to be better at
1:11:46
I'm trying constantly to be better at that but that is definitely because you
1:11:49
that but that is definitely because you
1:11:49
that but that is definitely because you you're not going to go to any job and
1:11:51
you're not going to go to any job and
1:11:51
you're not going to go to any job and have everybody go yeah we all like each
1:11:53
have everybody go yeah we all like each
1:11:53
have everybody go yeah we all like each other we all have the same ideas
1:11:55
other we all have the same ideas
1:11:56
other we all have the same ideas it doesn't work that way right and so
1:11:58
it doesn't work that way right and so
1:11:58
it doesn't work that way right and so and also as Sean pointed out earlier
1:12:00
and also as Sean pointed out earlier
1:12:00
and also as Sean pointed out earlier with kindness with empathy yeah you know
1:12:04
with kindness with empathy yeah you know
1:12:04
with kindness with empathy yeah you know having you know giving other folks the
1:12:07
having you know giving other folks the
1:12:07
having you know giving other folks the benefit of the doubt that maybe you
1:12:08
benefit of the doubt that maybe you
1:12:08
benefit of the doubt that maybe you don't have the whole story maybe you've
1:12:10
don't have the whole story maybe you've
1:12:10
don't have the whole story maybe you've made up some stories in your head on why
1:12:12
made up some stories in your head on why
1:12:12
made up some stories in your head on why they're behaving the way that they're
1:12:14
they're behaving the way that they're
1:12:14
they're behaving the way that they're behaving and um you know being being
1:12:18
behaving and um you know being being
1:12:18
behaving and um you know being being open and willing to work out that those
1:12:22
open and willing to work out that those
1:12:22
open and willing to work out that those U those conflicts is can be a huge win
1:12:25
U those conflicts is can be a huge win
1:12:25
U those conflicts is can be a huge win for everyone yes I I'll add something
1:12:28
for everyone yes I I'll add something
1:12:28
for everyone yes I I'll add something else in this uh mix is that when
1:12:31
else in this uh mix is that when
1:12:31
else in this uh mix is that when conflict has gone too far being quick to
1:12:33
conflict has gone too far being quick to
1:12:33
conflict has gone too far being quick to apologize yeah right if you've taken it
1:12:35
apologize yeah right if you've taken it
1:12:36
apologize yeah right if you've taken it too far if you if it got the better of
1:12:37
too far if you if it got the better of
1:12:37
too far if you if it got the better of you this is happened to Jared and I you
1:12:39
you this is happened to Jared and I you
1:12:39
you this is happened to Jared and I you know um but like nice Grimace jarus nice
1:12:42
know um but like nice Grimace jarus nice
1:12:43
know um but like nice Grimace jarus nice uh but you know um but you it be the one
1:12:46
uh but you know um but you it be the one
1:12:46
uh but you know um but you it be the one to like say look I'm sorry I totally
1:12:50
to like say look I'm sorry I totally
1:12:50
to like say look I'm sorry I totally messed that up this is this is off on
1:12:52
messed that up this is this is off on
1:12:52
messed that up this is this is off on the wrong foot and and reboot right
1:12:55
the wrong foot and and reboot right
1:12:55
the wrong foot and and reboot right um you know as you guys are talking
1:12:57
um you know as you guys are talking
1:12:57
um you know as you guys are talking about conflict avoidance and those kinds
1:12:59
about conflict avoidance and those kinds
1:12:59
about conflict avoidance and those kinds of things and like that that being kind
1:13:01
of things and like that that being kind
1:13:01
of things and like that that being kind of a first inclination my inclination is
1:13:05
of a first inclination my inclination is
1:13:05
of a first inclination my inclination is just get mad um and I've got to deal
1:13:08
just get mad um and I've got to deal
1:13:08
just get mad um and I've got to deal with that right I'm I'm ADHD and my and
1:13:10
with that right I'm I'm ADHD and my and
1:13:10
with that right I'm I'm ADHD and my and so my first inclination is get
1:13:12
so my first inclination is get
1:13:12
so my first inclination is get emotionally disregulated and uh get
1:13:14
emotionally disregulated and uh get
1:13:14
emotionally disregulated and uh get frustrated um so knowing
1:13:18
frustrated um so knowing
1:13:18
frustrated um so knowing yourself how you might respond to
1:13:20
yourself how you might respond to
1:13:20
yourself how you might respond to something so that you can keep the
1:13:22
something so that you can keep the
1:13:22
something so that you can keep the things that are going to you know make
1:13:24
things that are going to you know make
1:13:24
things that are going to you know make the conflict resolution harder in the
1:13:26
the conflict resolution harder in the
1:13:26
the conflict resolution harder in the end in check yeah I think there's two
1:13:29
end in check yeah I think there's two
1:13:29
end in check yeah I think there's two things about that that I think are
1:13:30
things about that that I think are
1:13:30
things about that that I think are important one is to be able to separate
1:13:33
important one is to be able to separate
1:13:33
important one is to be able to separate the difference between being right and
1:13:35
the difference between being right and
1:13:35
the difference between being right and being
1:13:37
being
1:13:37
being heard if if I'm heard and the decision
1:13:40
heard if if I'm heard and the decision
1:13:40
heard if if I'm heard and the decision is not in my you know favor if you want
1:13:42
is not in my you know favor if you want
1:13:42
is not in my you know favor if you want to use those perjorative words uh I'm
1:13:45
to use those perjorative words uh I'm
1:13:45
to use those perjorative words uh I'm still on the bus I'm still on the team
1:13:48
still on the bus I'm still on the team
1:13:48
still on the bus I'm still on the team like that none of that really solves
1:13:51
like that none of that really solves
1:13:51
like that none of that really solves that in these skills we're talking about
1:13:53
that in these skills we're talking about
1:13:53
that in these skills we're talking about conflict resolution and communication
1:13:56
conflict resolution and communication
1:13:56
conflict resolution and communication um they happen to help you in your
1:13:59
um they happen to help you in your
1:13:59
um they happen to help you in your personal life like I would not have the
1:14:01
personal life like I would not have the
1:14:01
personal life like I would not have the relationship I have with my wife if I
1:14:03
relationship I have with my wife if I
1:14:03
relationship I have with my wife if I was still that 25y old that wanted to
1:14:06
was still that 25y old that wanted to
1:14:06
was still that 25y old that wanted to hide and avoid conflict at all
1:14:09
hide and avoid conflict at all
1:14:09
hide and avoid conflict at all costs one thing I I've a technique I've
1:14:12
costs one thing I I've a technique I've
1:14:12
costs one thing I I've a technique I've definitely found especially like like
1:14:15
definitely found especially like like
1:14:15
definitely found especially like like mid to later in my career is
1:14:16
mid to later in my career is
1:14:16
mid to later in my career is particularly like when I'm having
1:14:17
particularly like when I'm having
1:14:17
particularly like when I'm having conflict often if you're in a corporate
1:14:19
conflict often if you're in a corporate
1:14:19
conflict often if you're in a corporate environment it's going to be a repeat
1:14:21
environment it's going to be a repeat
1:14:21
environment it's going to be a repeat conflict with certain people is finding
1:14:24
conflict with certain people is finding
1:14:24
conflict with certain people is finding ways to have a technical conversation
1:14:26
ways to have a technical conversation
1:14:26
ways to have a technical conversation with that person and get to see them as
1:14:28
with that person and get to see them as
1:14:28
with that person and get to see them as a human like for instance like this Star
1:14:31
a human like for instance like this Star
1:14:31
a human like for instance like this Star Destroyer back here that was put there
1:14:33
Destroyer back here that was put there
1:14:33
Destroyer back here that was put there originally just because I had no other
1:14:35
originally just because I had no other
1:14:35
originally just because I had no other place to put it but turns out it has
1:14:37
place to put it but turns out it has
1:14:37
place to put it but turns out it has been an amazing like conversation
1:14:39
been an amazing like conversation
1:14:39
been an amazing like conversation Icebreaker with people like oh you did
1:14:41
Icebreaker with people like oh you did
1:14:41
Icebreaker with people like oh you did that Lego or what is that how big is
1:14:43
that Lego or what is that how big is
1:14:43
that Lego or what is that how big is that and the number of meetings I've had
1:14:45
that and the number of meetings I've had
1:14:45
that and the number of meetings I've had which have started or ended with someone
1:14:47
which have started or ended with someone
1:14:47
which have started or ended with someone asking about that Lego or that Lego or
1:14:48
asking about that Lego or that Lego or
1:14:48
asking about that Lego or that Lego or something like that and we can just have
1:14:50
something like that and we can just have
1:14:50
something like that and we can just have a conversation as just two people and
1:14:52
a conversation as just two people and
1:14:52
a conversation as just two people and we're just like hey like this and then
1:14:53
we're just like hey like this and then
1:14:53
we're just like hey like this and then they start telling me about like oh yeah
1:14:55
they start telling me about like oh yeah
1:14:55
they start telling me about like oh yeah like I've done this or like I build this
1:14:57
like I've done this or like I build this
1:14:57
like I've done this or like I build this type of thing on the side and once you
1:14:59
type of thing on the side and once you
1:14:59
type of thing on the side and once you start communicating with someone like
1:15:01
start communicating with someone like
1:15:01
start communicating with someone like just as a human and like you've gotten
1:15:03
just as a human and like you've gotten
1:15:03
just as a human and like you've gotten all the technical stuff aside I mean it
1:15:06
all the technical stuff aside I mean it
1:15:06
all the technical stuff aside I mean it creates a bit of a base relationship
1:15:07
creates a bit of a base relationship
1:15:08
creates a bit of a base relationship where you're just going to want to like
1:15:09
where you're just going to want to like
1:15:09
where you're just going to want to like be have more empathy for that other
1:15:11
be have more empathy for that other
1:15:11
be have more empathy for that other person when you start having that
1:15:13
person when you start having that
1:15:13
person when you start having that technical conversation later on and I I
1:15:16
technical conversation later on and I I
1:15:16
technical conversation later on and I I try to stress to people it's like find
1:15:17
try to stress to people it's like find
1:15:17
try to stress to people it's like find ways to build non-technical
1:15:19
ways to build non-technical
1:15:19
ways to build non-technical relationships with these people that
1:15:21
relationships with these people that
1:15:21
relationships with these people that you're having problems with and I think
1:15:22
you're having problems with and I think
1:15:22
you're having problems with and I think you'll find the technical problems they
1:15:24
you'll find the technical problems they
1:15:24
you'll find the technical problems they start getting softer because you start
1:15:26
start getting softer because you start
1:15:26
start getting softer because you start to see each other as people and no
1:15:28
to see each other as people and no
1:15:28
to see each other as people and no longer as opposing people on like a
1:15:31
longer as opposing people on like a
1:15:31
longer as opposing people on like a problem yeah you've You' you've all
1:15:34
problem yeah you've You' you've all
1:15:34
problem yeah you've You' you've all reminded me of of a story basically of
1:15:37
reminded me of of a story basically of
1:15:37
reminded me of of a story basically of uh of of doing you know getting to know
1:15:40
uh of of doing you know getting to know
1:15:40
uh of of doing you know getting to know like you just said getting to know
1:15:42
like you just said getting to know
1:15:42
like you just said getting to know people outside of the work environment
1:15:44
people outside of the work environment
1:15:44
people outside of the work environment right and so I will say that I'm not a
1:15:47
right and so I will say that I'm not a
1:15:47
right and so I will say that I'm not a big person that likes going to Christmas
1:15:50
big person that likes going to Christmas
1:15:50
big person that likes going to Christmas office parties and things like that not
1:15:52
office parties and things like that not
1:15:52
office parties and things like that not really you know uh but I have found that
1:15:57
really you know uh but I have found that
1:15:57
really you know uh but I have found that that's really where I get to know people
1:15:59
that's really where I get to know people
1:15:59
that's really where I get to know people right and you get to know people and go
1:16:01
right and you get to know people and go
1:16:01
right and you get to know people and go hey they're not really that way in real
1:16:03
hey they're not really that way in real
1:16:03
hey they're not really that way in real life so maybe I have more common ground
1:16:06
life so maybe I have more common ground
1:16:06
life so maybe I have more common ground with them right or you know when I was
1:16:09
with them right or you know when I was
1:16:09
with them right or you know when I was working at a do com uh you know back in
1:16:12
working at a do com uh you know back in
1:16:12
working at a do com uh you know back in the internet bubble days you know I uh I
1:16:15
the internet bubble days you know I uh I
1:16:15
the internet bubble days you know I uh I hosted two team building events uh that
1:16:18
hosted two team building events uh that
1:16:18
hosted two team building events uh that me and and one other uh person uh did
1:16:21
me and and one other uh person uh did
1:16:21
me and and one other uh person uh did for the our entire development team and
1:16:24
for the our entire development team and
1:16:24
for the our entire development team and I still remember like the first one the
1:16:27
I still remember like the first one the
1:16:27
I still remember like the first one the next Monday after we came back from the
1:16:29
next Monday after we came back from the
1:16:29
next Monday after we came back from the first one it just the mood of the entire
1:16:31
first one it just the mood of the entire
1:16:31
first one it just the mood of the entire team was different right just because we
1:16:34
team was different right just because we
1:16:34
team was different right just because we went and spent the afternoon bowling and
1:16:38
went and spent the afternoon bowling and
1:16:38
went and spent the afternoon bowling and and uh drinking beer and and playing
1:16:41
and uh drinking beer and and playing
1:16:41
and uh drinking beer and and playing silly games to win prizes right that's
1:16:43
silly games to win prizes right that's
1:16:44
silly games to win prizes right that's all we did and it was such a big help
1:16:46
all we did and it was such a big help
1:16:46
all we did and it was such a big help for our team yeah make friends I think
1:16:49
for our team yeah make friends I think
1:16:49
for our team yeah make friends I think is a good way to say right like just
1:16:51
is a good way to say right like just
1:16:51
is a good way to say right like just just don't be afraid to make friends it
1:16:53
just don't be afraid to make friends it
1:16:53
just don't be afraid to make friends it it it's it's um
1:16:55
it it's it's um
1:16:55
it it's it's um like and it doesn't have to be on that
1:16:58
like and it doesn't have to be on that
1:16:58
like and it doesn't have to be on that like you know very specific like Hey
1:17:01
like you know very specific like Hey
1:17:01
like you know very specific like Hey we're all going to go have beers
1:17:03
we're all going to go have beers
1:17:03
we're all going to go have beers together that's not for everybody right
1:17:04
together that's not for everybody right
1:17:04
together that's not for everybody right I have a a mentee who I love interacting
1:17:08
I have a a mentee who I love interacting
1:17:08
I have a a mentee who I love interacting with her outside of work that's all
1:17:10
with her outside of work that's all
1:17:10
with her outside of work that's all through good reads and letter boxed and
1:17:13
through good reads and letter boxed and
1:17:13
through good reads and letter boxed and other things that she's really into and
1:17:15
other things that she's really into and
1:17:15
other things that she's really into and I'm like cool you know I'll sign up
1:17:18
I'm like cool you know I'll sign up
1:17:18
I'm like cool you know I'll sign up let's do this and it's it's great fun
1:17:20
let's do this and it's it's great fun
1:17:20
let's do this and it's it's great fun and I we and those are things we can
1:17:22
and I we and those are things we can
1:17:22
and I we and those are things we can talk about the next time we meet if
1:17:24
talk about the next time we meet if
1:17:24
talk about the next time we meet if there's a technical thing we can just
1:17:26
there's a technical thing we can just
1:17:26
there's a technical thing we can just talk about like the stuff we're into and
1:17:29
talk about like the stuff we're into and
1:17:29
talk about like the stuff we're into and it's it's cool and being able to do that
1:17:31
it's it's cool and being able to do that
1:17:31
it's it's cool and being able to do that in your community whether that's you
1:17:33
in your community whether that's you
1:17:33
in your community whether that's you going to a conference or going to a a
1:17:36
going to a conference or going to a a
1:17:36
going to a conference or going to a a Meetup or or user group have some human
1:17:40
Meetup or or user group have some human
1:17:40
Meetup or or user group have some human conversations not everything has to be
1:17:42
conversations not everything has to be
1:17:42
conversations not everything has to be technical
1:17:44
technical
1:17:44
technical right I've always sought out
1:17:46
right I've always sought out
1:17:46
right I've always sought out non-technical discussions at conferences
1:17:48
non-technical discussions at conferences
1:17:49
non-technical discussions at conferences always right because my brain can only
1:17:51
always right because my brain can only
1:17:51
always right because my brain can only take so much technical in the day and so
1:17:53
take so much technical in the day and so
1:17:53
take so much technical in the day and so I want to do other I want to talk about
1:17:55
I want to do other I want to talk about
1:17:56
I want to do other I want to talk about other stuff exactly you're in a
1:17:57
other stuff exactly you're in a
1:17:57
other stuff exactly you're in a technical show like why do I want to
1:17:59
technical show like why do I want to
1:17:59
technical show like why do I want to talk about this you know that's what I'm
1:18:01
talk about this you know that's what I'm
1:18:01
talk about this you know that's what I'm doing all day I want to know what you're
1:18:03
doing all day I want to know what you're
1:18:03
doing all day I want to know what you're excited about and if it's service bus
1:18:06
excited about and if it's service bus
1:18:06
excited about and if it's service bus that's fine but I I don't think it's
1:18:08
that's fine but I I don't think it's
1:18:08
that's fine but I I don't think it's service bus
1:18:12
no well um we're getting close to the
1:18:14
no well um we're getting close to the
1:18:14
no well um we're getting close to the end already I I was just thinking we
1:18:18
end already I I was just thinking we
1:18:18
end already I I was just thinking we need to do a part two or something maybe
1:18:20
need to do a part two or something maybe
1:18:20
need to do a part two or something maybe but someday but uh because I still think
1:18:22
but someday but uh because I still think
1:18:22
but someday but uh because I still think we have so much to talk about but we're
1:18:24
we have so much to talk about but we're
1:18:25
we have so much to talk about but we're getting close to the the hour and a half
1:18:27
getting close to the the hour and a half
1:18:27
getting close to the the hour and a half so um I kind of want to uh oh uh hello
1:18:32
so um I kind of want to uh oh uh hello
1:18:32
so um I kind of want to uh oh uh hello from AF uh who uh Ledger from Africa
1:18:35
from AF uh who uh Ledger from Africa
1:18:35
from AF uh who uh Ledger from Africa thanks for joining I I don't remember
1:18:37
thanks for joining I I don't remember
1:18:37
thanks for joining I I don't remember seeing anybody from Africa before so I'm
1:18:39
seeing anybody from Africa before so I'm
1:18:39
seeing anybody from Africa before so I'm glad you're here um uh so I wanted to
1:18:43
glad you're here um uh so I wanted to
1:18:43
glad you're here um uh so I wanted to like I said at the beginning of the show
1:18:45
like I said at the beginning of the show
1:18:45
like I said at the beginning of the show I wanted to end up with uh your final
1:18:47
I wanted to end up with uh your final
1:18:47
I wanted to end up with uh your final thoughts Andor uh your number one tip
1:18:50
thoughts Andor uh your number one tip
1:18:50
thoughts Andor uh your number one tip which I've saved my number one uh to the
1:18:52
which I've saved my number one uh to the
1:18:53
which I've saved my number one uh to the end um on you know what advice you would
1:18:56
end um on you know what advice you would
1:18:56
end um on you know what advice you would give to help people have a long
1:18:58
give to help people have a long
1:18:58
give to help people have a long successful career in in Tech so uh with
1:19:01
successful career in in Tech so uh with
1:19:01
successful career in in Tech so uh with that said Billy do you want to go first
1:19:04
that said Billy do you want to go first
1:19:04
that said Billy do you want to go first I I guess I
1:19:07
I I guess I
1:19:07
I I guess I can and my number one tip is number one
1:19:11
can and my number one tip is number one
1:19:11
can and my number one tip is number one because of the small investment and the
1:19:14
because of the small investment and the
1:19:14
because of the small investment and the huge return that comes from it and that
1:19:19
huge return that comes from it and that
1:19:19
huge return that comes from it and that is spend some structured time on your
1:19:23
is spend some structured time on your
1:19:23
is spend some structured time on your listening skills
1:19:25
listening skills
1:19:25
listening skills H because it's key to everything you do
1:19:27
H because it's key to everything you do
1:19:27
H because it's key to everything you do in this industry it's key to everything
1:19:29
in this industry it's key to everything
1:19:29
in this industry it's key to everything you do in life and human beings in
1:19:31
you do in life and human beings in
1:19:31
you do in life and human beings in general are just not very good at
1:19:33
general are just not very good at
1:19:33
general are just not very good at listening and and you know that because
1:19:36
listening and and you know that because
1:19:36
listening and and you know that because you've seen it you've seen when you're
1:19:38
you've seen it you've seen when you're
1:19:38
you've seen it you've seen when you're talking to someone and they get that
1:19:39
talking to someone and they get that
1:19:40
talking to someone and they get that glazed look on their face where where
1:19:42
glazed look on their face where where
1:19:42
glazed look on their face where where they're pretending to listen but they're
1:19:44
they're pretending to listen but they're
1:19:44
they're pretending to listen but they're not really listening anymore yeah well
1:19:46
not really listening anymore yeah well
1:19:46
not really listening anymore yeah well if you can see it in other people they
1:19:48
if you can see it in other people they
1:19:48
if you can see it in other people they can see it in you too and it turns out
1:19:51
can see it in you too and it turns out
1:19:51
can see it in you too and it turns out that the typical amount of time for
1:19:53
that the typical amount of time for
1:19:53
that the typical amount of time for active listening
1:19:55
active listening
1:19:55
active listening is about 15 to 20 seconds before
1:19:57
is about 15 to 20 seconds before
1:19:57
is about 15 to 20 seconds before people's minds wander there's research
1:20:00
people's minds wander there's research
1:20:00
people's minds wander there's research based on that and you can get that up to
1:20:03
based on that and you can get that up to
1:20:03
based on that and you can get that up to a couple of minutes and there are
1:20:05
a couple of minutes and there are
1:20:05
a couple of minutes and there are exercises and such that you can use to
1:20:07
exercises and such that you can use to
1:20:07
exercises and such that you can use to do it there are various places you can
1:20:09
do it there are various places you can
1:20:09
do it there are various places you can find to do these uh but I recommend
1:20:13
find to do these uh but I recommend
1:20:13
find to do these uh but I recommend there's a chapter in a book called The
1:20:15
there's a chapter in a book called The
1:20:15
there's a chapter in a book called The Charisma myth by Olivia Fox cabain who
1:20:19
Charisma myth by Olivia Fox cabain who
1:20:19
Charisma myth by Olivia Fox cabain who is very very well known in helping
1:20:21
is very very well known in helping
1:20:21
is very very well known in helping people increase their presence she works
1:20:23
people increase their presence she works
1:20:23
people increase their presence she works with very high Executives well the
1:20:26
with very high Executives well the
1:20:26
with very high Executives well the advice in that book is good for just
1:20:28
advice in that book is good for just
1:20:28
advice in that book is good for just about anybody in any career but the
1:20:30
about anybody in any career but the
1:20:30
about anybody in any career but the chapter on listening is the one that I
1:20:32
chapter on listening is the one that I
1:20:32
chapter on listening is the one that I recommend people go to first uh and and
1:20:35
recommend people go to first uh and and
1:20:36
recommend people go to first uh and and you won't spend that much time on it a
1:20:38
you won't spend that much time on it a
1:20:38
you won't spend that much time on it a couple hours maybe and then some of the
1:20:40
couple hours maybe and then some of the
1:20:40
couple hours maybe and then some of the exercises that you focus on as you as
1:20:43
exercises that you focus on as you as
1:20:43
exercises that you focus on as you as you go through the next week or two of
1:20:44
you go through the next week or two of
1:20:44
you go through the next week or two of your life but if you if you ingrain
1:20:47
your life but if you if you ingrain
1:20:47
your life but if you if you ingrain those habits then the effects upon your
1:20:50
those habits then the effects upon your
1:20:50
those habits then the effects upon your career are likely to be bigger than you
1:20:53
career are likely to be bigger than you
1:20:53
career are likely to be bigger than you think and longer term than you would
1:20:57
think and longer term than you would
1:20:57
think and longer term than you would imagine yes that's so true I'm sorry
1:21:00
imagine yes that's so true I'm sorry
1:21:00
imagine yes that's so true I'm sorry Billy what were you
1:21:02
Billy what were you
1:21:02
Billy what were you saying I checked out after 20 seconds
1:21:05
saying I checked out after 20 seconds
1:21:05
saying I checked out after 20 seconds thanks for throwing yourself per I was
1:21:08
thanks for throwing yourself per I was
1:21:08
thanks for throwing yourself per I was not gonna do that
1:21:09
not gonna do that
1:21:09
not gonna do that joke but thank I'm glad it was I have no
1:21:14
shame um David you're next yeah well I I
1:21:19
shame um David you're next yeah well I I
1:21:19
shame um David you're next yeah well I I kind of let the cat out of the bag I
1:21:20
kind of let the cat out of the bag I
1:21:20
kind of let the cat out of the bag I already said earlier that my number one
1:21:22
already said earlier that my number one
1:21:22
already said earlier that my number one tip was was getting involved in the
1:21:24
tip was was getting involved in the
1:21:24
tip was was getting involved in the community
1:21:25
community
1:21:25
community and you know developing relationships uh
1:21:28
and you know developing relationships uh
1:21:28
and you know developing relationships uh both you know as as was pointed out you
1:21:30
both you know as as was pointed out you
1:21:30
both you know as as was pointed out you know up and down um because you never
1:21:34
know up and down um because you never
1:21:34
know up and down um because you never know where one of those connections can
1:21:37
know where one of those connections can
1:21:37
know where one of those connections can lead in the future and what kind of
1:21:39
lead in the future and what kind of
1:21:39
lead in the future and what kind of opportunities that can open up for you U
1:21:42
opportunities that can open up for you U
1:21:42
opportunities that can open up for you U Down the Road uh I will plug one book
1:21:46
Down the Road uh I will plug one book
1:21:46
Down the Road uh I will plug one book that has been um kind of eye openening
1:21:49
that has been um kind of eye openening
1:21:49
that has been um kind of eye openening to me in the last um five years and that
1:21:53
to me in the last um five years and that
1:21:53
to me in the last um five years and that is uh the 15 commitments of conscious
1:21:57
is uh the 15 commitments of conscious
1:21:57
is uh the 15 commitments of conscious leadership and there's a kind of a a
1:22:01
leadership and there's a kind of a a
1:22:01
leadership and there's a kind of a a perspective in that book that that get
1:22:03
perspective in that book that that get
1:22:03
perspective in that book that that get that talks about either being above the
1:22:05
that talks about either being above the
1:22:05
that talks about either being above the line or below the line so in a nutshell
1:22:07
line or below the line so in a nutshell
1:22:07
line or below the line so in a nutshell above the line is you're open you're
1:22:10
above the line is you're open you're
1:22:10
above the line is you're open you're you're creative you're you're willing to
1:22:13
you're creative you're you're willing to
1:22:13
you're creative you're you're willing to receive uh criticism willing to give
1:22:16
receive uh criticism willing to give
1:22:16
receive uh criticism willing to give criticism and it's all like you have
1:22:19
criticism and it's all like you have
1:22:19
criticism and it's all like you have genuinely genuine care for the people
1:22:22
genuinely genuine care for the people
1:22:22
genuinely genuine care for the people that you that are around you
1:22:25
that you that are around you
1:22:25
that you that are around you and um you work you know you're working
1:22:28
and um you work you know you're working
1:22:28
and um you work you know you're working unselfishly and you know there's all
1:22:30
unselfishly and you know there's all
1:22:30
unselfishly and you know there's all kinds of facets to this and I I would
1:22:32
kinds of facets to this and I I would
1:22:32
kinds of facets to this and I I would highly recommend uh checking out that
1:22:36
highly recommend uh checking out that
1:22:36
highly recommend uh checking out that book and and related
1:22:38
book and and related
1:22:38
book and and related material cool uh
1:22:41
material cool uh
1:22:41
material cool uh Jared yeah i' say I think most people
1:22:45
Jared yeah i' say I think most people
1:22:45
Jared yeah i' say I think most people like most people get into Tech because
1:22:47
like most people get into Tech because
1:22:47
like most people get into Tech because you have some particular technology that
1:22:49
you have some particular technology that
1:22:49
you have some particular technology that you're passionate about you have a
1:22:50
you're passionate about you have a
1:22:50
you're passionate about you have a certain level of curiosity and you've
1:22:51
certain level of curiosity and you've
1:22:51
certain level of curiosity and you've demonstrated a certain level of skill to
1:22:53
demonstrated a certain level of skill to
1:22:53
demonstrated a certain level of skill to get in there um and I do think you need
1:22:55
get in there um and I do think you need
1:22:55
get in there um and I do think you need to definitely keep up you have to
1:22:57
to definitely keep up you have to
1:22:57
to definitely keep up you have to maintain the learning like that's one
1:22:59
maintain the learning like that's one
1:22:59
maintain the learning like that's one thing you do have to figure out is how
1:23:00
thing you do have to figure out is how
1:23:00
thing you do have to figure out is how do I maintain the learning but I'll say
1:23:02
do I maintain the learning but I'll say
1:23:02
do I maintain the learning but I'll say like the people who have been in tech
1:23:05
like the people who have been in tech
1:23:05
like the people who have been in tech for a long time like every single one of
1:23:07
for a long time like every single one of
1:23:07
for a long time like every single one of them I talk to it's like why are you
1:23:09
them I talk to it's like why are you
1:23:09
them I talk to it's like why are you still on the team you on what do you get
1:23:12
still on the team you on what do you get
1:23:12
still on the team you on what do you get about this they won't talk about the
1:23:14
about this they won't talk about the
1:23:14
about this they won't talk about the tech they talk about the people they're
1:23:16
tech they talk about the people they're
1:23:16
tech they talk about the people they're like hey like I've met my friends
1:23:17
like hey like I've met my friends
1:23:17
like hey like I've met my friends through this job like Dustin and I have
1:23:19
through this job like Dustin and I have
1:23:19
through this job like Dustin and I have worked together for 16 years now and he
1:23:21
worked together for 16 years now and he
1:23:21
worked together for 16 years now and he is one of my good friends and people ask
1:23:24
is one of my good friends and people ask
1:23:24
is one of my good friends and people ask me like body you st on the team and I'm
1:23:25
me like body you st on the team and I'm
1:23:25
me like body you st on the team and I'm like man look like I've been working
1:23:27
like man look like I've been working
1:23:27
like man look like I've been working with these people for this many years
1:23:28
with these people for this many years
1:23:28
with these people for this many years and I like them they're my friends like
1:23:30
and I like them they're my friends like
1:23:30
and I like them they're my friends like we hang out we've we've developed
1:23:32
we hang out we've we've developed
1:23:32
we hang out we've we've developed outside work relationships and I do like
1:23:35
outside work relationships and I do like
1:23:35
outside work relationships and I do like want to emphasize to people it's like
1:23:36
want to emphasize to people it's like
1:23:36
want to emphasize to people it's like the reason you will get much more
1:23:38
the reason you will get much more
1:23:38
the reason you will get much more enjoyment out of this job you will feel
1:23:40
enjoyment out of this job you will feel
1:23:40
enjoyment out of this job you will feel fulfilled and you will have better
1:23:42
fulfilled and you will have better
1:23:42
fulfilled and you will have better staying power if you view your job as a
1:23:44
staying power if you view your job as a
1:23:44
staying power if you view your job as a way to build relationships not just get
1:23:46
way to build relationships not just get
1:23:46
way to build relationships not just get some code written yeah that's that's so
1:23:49
some code written yeah that's that's so
1:23:49
some code written yeah that's that's so important that I've learned too is that
1:23:52
important that I've learned too is that
1:23:52
important that I've learned too is that and I've stayed I've stayed on team
1:23:54
and I've stayed I've stayed on team
1:23:54
and I've stayed I've stayed on team teams longer than I wanted to because of
1:23:56
teams longer than I wanted to because of
1:23:56
teams longer than I wanted to because of that right and because it's so to me
1:23:59
that right and because it's so to me
1:23:59
that right and because it's so to me it's so hard to find a good team and a
1:24:03
it's so hard to find a good team and a
1:24:03
it's so hard to find a good team and a and a good group of people you really
1:24:05
and a good group of people you really
1:24:05
and a good group of people you really get along with uh that's the hardest
1:24:07
get along with uh that's the hardest
1:24:07
get along with uh that's the hardest thing for me has been able to find that
1:24:10
thing for me has been able to find that
1:24:10
thing for me has been able to find that in the company right so I'll stay longer
1:24:13
in the company right so I'll stay longer
1:24:13
in the company right so I'll stay longer than I really should sometimes
1:24:15
than I really should sometimes
1:24:15
than I really should sometimes yeah um uh Dustin yeah I'll just I knew
1:24:20
yeah um uh Dustin yeah I'll just I knew
1:24:20
yeah um uh Dustin yeah I'll just I knew I was coming up next I'll just comment
1:24:21
I was coming up next I'll just comment
1:24:21
I was coming up next I'll just comment on that but I also and I got a tip as
1:24:23
on that but I also and I got a tip as
1:24:23
on that but I also and I got a tip as well but the uh you know when I'm you
1:24:25
well but the uh you know when I'm you
1:24:25
well but the uh you know when I'm you know when I'm gigging a lot doing music
1:24:27
know when I'm gigging a lot doing music
1:24:27
know when I'm gigging a lot doing music and I know this applies to to some of
1:24:29
and I know this applies to to some of
1:24:29
and I know this applies to to some of you guys you know I've always said
1:24:31
you guys you know I've always said
1:24:31
you guys you know I've always said there's an inverse relationship between
1:24:32
there's an inverse relationship between
1:24:32
there's an inverse relationship between how much I need to be paid and how much
1:24:34
how much I need to be paid and how much
1:24:34
how much I need to be paid and how much fun the gig is right and if it's gonna
1:24:36
fun the gig is right and if it's gonna
1:24:36
fun the gig is right and if it's gonna be fun fine whatever I'll do it um it's
1:24:41
be fun fine whatever I'll do it um it's
1:24:41
be fun fine whatever I'll do it um it's it's very simpar uh my number one tip is
1:24:43
it's very simpar uh my number one tip is
1:24:43
it's very simpar uh my number one tip is to take care of your health uh physical
1:24:45
to take care of your health uh physical
1:24:45
to take care of your health uh physical and mental and for engineers that might
1:24:48
and mental and for engineers that might
1:24:48
and mental and for engineers that might be different right there's you know
1:24:50
be different right there's you know
1:24:50
be different right there's you know we're sedentary we're sitting on our
1:24:51
we're sedentary we're sitting on our
1:24:51
we're sedentary we're sitting on our butts all day um writing code uh where
1:24:55
butts all day um writing code uh where
1:24:55
butts all day um writing code uh where but also
1:24:57
but also
1:24:57
but also Vision how many people here have
1:24:59
Vision how many people here have
1:24:59
Vision how many people here have experienced hand injuries it's kind of
1:25:01
experienced hand injuries it's kind of
1:25:01
experienced hand injuries it's kind of terrifying right I know David you've got
1:25:03
terrifying right I know David you've got
1:25:03
terrifying right I know David you've got one right now I mean it's like okay but
1:25:07
one right now I mean it's like okay but
1:25:07
one right now I mean it's like okay but this is what I do and uh and so don't
1:25:09
this is what I do and uh and so don't
1:25:09
this is what I do and uh and so don't ignore hand pain don't ignore like I
1:25:12
ignore hand pain don't ignore like I
1:25:12
ignore hand pain don't ignore like I strin go deal with those things and then
1:25:15
strin go deal with those things and then
1:25:15
strin go deal with those things and then on the mental side you know take it
1:25:17
on the mental side you know take it
1:25:17
on the mental side you know take it seriously um you know the stress is real
1:25:21
seriously um you know the stress is real
1:25:21
seriously um you know the stress is real and just even knowing enough about about
1:25:24
and just even knowing enough about about
1:25:24
and just even knowing enough about about yourself and how you react to situations
1:25:27
yourself and how you react to situations
1:25:27
yourself and how you react to situations how you learn what are the things that
1:25:30
how you learn what are the things that
1:25:30
how you learn what are the things that work for you um that's that's huge so
1:25:34
work for you um that's that's huge so
1:25:34
work for you um that's that's huge so that's that's kind of that's that would
1:25:36
that's that's kind of that's that would
1:25:36
that's that's kind of that's that would be my biggest tip is to just know
1:25:37
be my biggest tip is to just know
1:25:37
be my biggest tip is to just know yourself well physically and mentally
1:25:39
yourself well physically and mentally
1:25:39
yourself well physically and mentally yes I totally agree with that you know
1:25:42
yes I totally agree with that you know
1:25:42
yes I totally agree with that you know I've shared my story that I've you know
1:25:44
I've shared my story that I've you know
1:25:44
I've shared my story that I've you know in the last 12 years or 13 years now
1:25:46
in the last 12 years or 13 years now
1:25:46
in the last 12 years or 13 years now I've lost 140 pounds and you know and
1:25:49
I've lost 140 pounds and you know and
1:25:49
I've lost 140 pounds and you know and and that one thing I did was
1:25:52
and that one thing I did was
1:25:52
and that one thing I did was just really made a huge change for me
1:25:56
just really made a huge change for me
1:25:56
just really made a huge change for me you know and and uh uh so yeah staying
1:26:00
you know and and uh uh so yeah staying
1:26:00
you know and and uh uh so yeah staying healthy and staying healthy is something
1:26:02
healthy and staying healthy is something
1:26:02
healthy and staying healthy is something we don't think a lot about right because
1:26:03
we don't think a lot about right because
1:26:03
we don't think a lot about right because like you said we sit we eat bad food we
1:26:06
like you said we sit we eat bad food we
1:26:06
like you said we sit we eat bad food we drink too much you know but you've got
1:26:08
drink too much you know but you've got
1:26:08
drink too much you know but you've got to be healthy if you're going to stick
1:26:10
to be healthy if you're going to stick
1:26:10
to be healthy if you're going to stick around this this long right um
1:26:14
around this this long right um
1:26:14
around this this long right um Sean
1:26:17
Sean
1:26:17
Sean so mine is a little different um I think
1:26:21
so mine is a little different um I think
1:26:21
so mine is a little different um I think and that is be uh be unafraid to take
1:26:25
and that is be uh be unafraid to take
1:26:25
and that is be uh be unafraid to take risks there was a point in my career I
1:26:27
risks there was a point in my career I
1:26:27
risks there was a point in my career I was sort of the Superstar at a 100 man
1:26:30
was sort of the Superstar at a 100 man
1:26:30
was sort of the Superstar at a 100 man company and I would work you know way
1:26:32
company and I would work you know way
1:26:32
company and I would work you know way too many hours to maintain that like
1:26:34
too many hours to maintain that like
1:26:34
too many hours to maintain that like well sea will come save us and that is a
1:26:37
well sea will come save us and that is a
1:26:37
well sea will come save us and that is a you know it's a laudable position to be
1:26:38
you know it's a laudable position to be
1:26:38
you know it's a laudable position to be in but when I got an opportunity to work
1:26:41
in but when I got an opportunity to work
1:26:41
in but when I got an opportunity to work with uh this name goes back in a little
1:26:44
with uh this name goes back in a little
1:26:44
with uh this name goes back in a little while the develop Menor guys on some
1:26:46
while the develop Menor guys on some
1:26:46
while the develop Menor guys on some things chessel's dumbox and stuff right
1:26:48
things chessel's dumbox and stuff right
1:26:48
things chessel's dumbox and stuff right I was very close to not uh taking that
1:26:52
I was very close to not uh taking that
1:26:52
I was very close to not uh taking that because I was afraid to not feel like I
1:26:55
because I was afraid to not feel like I
1:26:55
because I was afraid to not feel like I was the smartest one in the room and
1:26:58
was the smartest one in the room and
1:26:58
was the smartest one in the room and realize that taking that risk and not
1:27:00
realize that taking that risk and not
1:27:00
realize that taking that risk and not being the smartest one in the room will
1:27:03
being the smartest one in the room will
1:27:03
being the smartest one in the room will help you understand
1:27:05
help you understand
1:27:05
help you understand how uh people work together you know
1:27:09
how uh people work together you know
1:27:09
how uh people work together you know when one of my heroes said I don't know
1:27:12
when one of my heroes said I don't know
1:27:12
when one of my heroes said I don't know for the first time I was like but if you
1:27:14
for the first time I was like but if you
1:27:14
for the first time I was like but if you don't know how does anybody know because
1:27:16
don't know how does anybody know because
1:27:16
don't know how does anybody know because we're all just people and you you'll
1:27:19
we're all just people and you you'll
1:27:19
we're all just people and you you'll gain a benefit from taking that risk
1:27:22
gain a benefit from taking that risk
1:27:22
gain a benefit from taking that risk yeah you know uh if you're worried about
1:27:24
yeah you know uh if you're worried about
1:27:24
yeah you know uh if you're worried about it because you don't need it because
1:27:26
it because you don't need it because
1:27:26
it because you don't need it because you're smart and all this other stuff
1:27:29
you're smart and all this other stuff
1:27:29
you're smart and all this other stuff really look at that as are you arrogant
1:27:32
really look at that as are you arrogant
1:27:32
really look at that as are you arrogant or insecure and they can they can look
1:27:35
or insecure and they can they can look
1:27:35
or insecure and they can they can look like the same thing to a lot of us
1:27:37
like the same thing to a lot of us
1:27:37
like the same thing to a lot of us especially earlier in our
1:27:39
especially earlier in our
1:27:39
especially earlier in our career yeah that's that's uh that's one
1:27:44
career yeah that's that's uh that's one
1:27:44
career yeah that's that's uh that's one I didn't think about until right now but
1:27:46
I didn't think about until right now but
1:27:46
I didn't think about until right now but I'm going to put all these I I I'm going
1:27:48
I'm going to put all these I I I'm going
1:27:48
I'm going to put all these I I I'm going to make notes of this I'm going to put
1:27:49
to make notes of this I'm going to put
1:27:49
to make notes of this I'm going to put it all on the on the blog post for this
1:27:52
it all on the on the blog post for this
1:27:52
it all on the on the blog post for this uh but you know my my number one tip and
1:27:55
uh but you know my my number one tip and
1:27:55
uh but you know my my number one tip and and like I said I'll I'll publish it on
1:27:57
and like I said I'll I'll publish it on
1:27:57
and like I said I'll I'll publish it on my blog tomorrow and and that and
1:28:00
my blog tomorrow and and that and
1:28:00
my blog tomorrow and and that and someone else I I think maybe David's
1:28:02
someone else I I think maybe David's
1:28:02
someone else I I think maybe David's already uh mentioned this and that is
1:28:05
already uh mentioned this and that is
1:28:05
already uh mentioned this and that is financial planning you know um you know
1:28:08
financial planning you know um you know
1:28:09
financial planning you know um you know we we we talked about this a little bit
1:28:11
we we we talked about this a little bit
1:28:11
we we we talked about this a little bit you know when we were talking about
1:28:11
you know when we were talking about
1:28:11
you know when we were talking about agism right and and you know this part
1:28:17
agism right and and you know this part
1:28:17
agism right and and you know this part of my career will be a lot better if I
1:28:19
of my career will be a lot better if I
1:28:19
of my career will be a lot better if I did Financial Planning in the beginning
1:28:21
did Financial Planning in the beginning
1:28:21
did Financial Planning in the beginning right uh you know as far as far as my
1:28:24
right uh you know as far as far as my
1:28:24
right uh you know as far as far as my background goes you know uh when I went
1:28:26
background goes you know uh when I went
1:28:26
background goes you know uh when I went to school there was no classes in high
1:28:28
to school there was no classes in high
1:28:28
to school there was no classes in high school or anything for this right I'm
1:28:30
school or anything for this right I'm
1:28:30
school or anything for this right I'm not sure if there still is to tell you
1:28:32
not sure if there still is to tell you
1:28:32
not sure if there still is to tell you the truth right um my parents never
1:28:36
the truth right um my parents never
1:28:36
the truth right um my parents never taught me about financial planning and
1:28:38
taught me about financial planning and
1:28:38
taught me about financial planning and therefore I haven't taught my kids and
1:28:40
therefore I haven't taught my kids and
1:28:40
therefore I haven't taught my kids and so I feel really bad about that you know
1:28:42
so I feel really bad about that you know
1:28:42
so I feel really bad about that you know in a way um and you know the the the
1:28:46
in a way um and you know the the the
1:28:47
in a way um and you know the the the pain I've been experiencing the last uh
1:28:49
pain I've been experiencing the last uh
1:28:49
pain I've been experiencing the last uh year uh would not be near as bad and
1:28:53
year uh would not be near as bad and
1:28:53
year uh would not be near as bad and cause as near as many mental problems
1:28:56
cause as near as many mental problems
1:28:56
cause as near as many mental problems with me if I had the financial back uh
1:28:59
with me if I had the financial back uh
1:28:59
with me if I had the financial back uh uh Nest Egg uh you know uh that I didn't
1:29:03
uh Nest Egg uh you know uh that I didn't
1:29:03
uh Nest Egg uh you know uh that I didn't have to worry about gaps in my career
1:29:05
have to worry about gaps in my career
1:29:05
have to worry about gaps in my career you know and and you know a long time
1:29:07
you know and and you know a long time
1:29:08
you know and and you know a long time ago uh before I went Consulting you know
1:29:10
ago uh before I went Consulting you know
1:29:10
ago uh before I went Consulting you know one of my Consulting friends said Dave
1:29:12
one of my Consulting friends said Dave
1:29:12
one of my Consulting friends said Dave Dave you know before you go Consulting
1:29:14
Dave you know before you go Consulting
1:29:14
Dave you know before you go Consulting you need to have at least three months
1:29:16
you need to have at least three months
1:29:16
you need to have at least three months of uh operating capital in the bank
1:29:18
of uh operating capital in the bank
1:29:18
of uh operating capital in the bank right and at that time I still was
1:29:21
right and at that time I still was
1:29:21
right and at that time I still was supporting my kids and I was going oh
1:29:23
supporting my kids and I was going oh
1:29:23
supporting my kids and I was going oh man I don't know how how I can ever do
1:29:25
man I don't know how how I can ever do
1:29:25
man I don't know how how I can ever do that you know um but after going through
1:29:29
that you know um but after going through
1:29:29
that you know um but after going through you know not having a contract for a
1:29:31
you know not having a contract for a
1:29:31
you know not having a contract for a while or being laid off or whatever you
1:29:33
while or being laid off or whatever you
1:29:33
while or being laid off or whatever you know I I'm revising that to at least six
1:29:36
know I I'm revising that to at least six
1:29:36
know I I'm revising that to at least six months to a year right and three months
1:29:39
months to a year right and three months
1:29:39
months to a year right and three months is not good enough right because it
1:29:40
is not good enough right because it
1:29:41
is not good enough right because it takes so long to find a new position
1:29:43
takes so long to find a new position
1:29:43
takes so long to find a new position these days uh even if you are new in
1:29:46
these days uh even if you are new in
1:29:46
these days uh even if you are new in this job it takes a long time these days
1:29:49
this job it takes a long time these days
1:29:49
this job it takes a long time these days because just a sheer number of people
1:29:51
because just a sheer number of people
1:29:51
because just a sheer number of people that are applying to jobs as opposed to
1:29:53
that are applying to jobs as opposed to
1:29:53
that are applying to jobs as opposed to when we all started out right and
1:29:57
when we all started out right and
1:29:57
when we all started out right and so my my thing and I like I said it's
1:29:59
so my my thing and I like I said it's
1:29:59
so my my thing and I like I said it's going to be on my blog is is as soon as
1:30:02
going to be on my blog is is as soon as
1:30:02
going to be on my blog is is as soon as you become a software engineer because
1:30:04
you become a software engineer because
1:30:04
you become a software engineer because most software Engineers all start out
1:30:07
most software Engineers all start out
1:30:07
most software Engineers all start out you know this varies on what country
1:30:08
you know this varies on what country
1:30:08
you know this varies on what country you're in but we all start out pretty
1:30:10
you're in but we all start out pretty
1:30:10
you're in but we all start out pretty dang good pay you know in America we are
1:30:13
dang good pay you know in America we are
1:30:13
dang good pay you know in America we are way above average just starting pay in
1:30:16
way above average just starting pay in
1:30:16
way above average just starting pay in America for software Engineers right and
1:30:18
America for software Engineers right and
1:30:18
America for software Engineers right and so uh and and and we I'm a parent just
1:30:23
so uh and and and we I'm a parent just
1:30:23
so uh and and and we I'm a parent just like many of you on the show and and and
1:30:26
like many of you on the show and and and
1:30:26
like many of you on the show and and and being young and being a parent and
1:30:28
being young and being a parent and
1:30:28
being young and being a parent and trying to save money is near impossible
1:30:30
trying to save money is near impossible
1:30:30
trying to save money is near impossible you know right and so but you have to
1:30:32
you know right and so but you have to
1:30:33
you know right and so but you have to find a way to save money start you know
1:30:37
find a way to save money start you know
1:30:37
find a way to save money start you know invest don't take investment advice from
1:30:39
invest don't take investment advice from
1:30:39
invest don't take investment advice from me but you need to start investing and
1:30:42
me but you need to start investing and
1:30:42
me but you need to start investing and the you know the number one thing I did
1:30:44
the you know the number one thing I did
1:30:44
the you know the number one thing I did which wasn't really my idea uh it was my
1:30:47
which wasn't really my idea uh it was my
1:30:47
which wasn't really my idea uh it was my accountants idea the one number one
1:30:49
accountants idea the one number one
1:30:49
accountants idea the one number one thing I did right was buy this home
1:30:52
thing I did right was buy this home
1:30:52
thing I did right was buy this home right that was the only thing I did as
1:30:54
right that was the only thing I did as
1:30:54
right that was the only thing I did as far as financial planning correctly
1:30:56
far as financial planning correctly
1:30:56
far as financial planning correctly because this home especially because the
1:30:59
because this home especially because the
1:30:59
because this home especially because the where I bought it you know I'm a mile
1:31:01
where I bought it you know I'm a mile
1:31:01
where I bought it you know I'm a mile from the beach you know I'm next to two
1:31:03
from the beach you know I'm next to two
1:31:03
from the beach you know I'm next to two major highways I knew this home was not
1:31:06
major highways I knew this home was not
1:31:06
major highways I knew this home was not going to go down and it never did even
1:31:08
going to go down and it never did even
1:31:08
going to go down and it never did even during the 2008 downturn and so the one
1:31:12
during the 2008 downturn and so the one
1:31:12
during the 2008 downturn and so the one thing I did right was buy property so my
1:31:15
thing I did right was buy property so my
1:31:15
thing I did right was buy property so my quick advice is save money and buy as
1:31:17
quick advice is save money and buy as
1:31:17
quick advice is save money and buy as much properties as you
1:31:20
can David's advice is Real Estate
1:31:25
can David's advice is Real Estate
1:31:25
can David's advice is Real Estate all and don't have kids it's much easier
1:31:28
all and don't have kids it's much easier
1:31:28
all and don't have kids it's much easier to plan
1:31:29
to plan
1:31:29
to plan financially I you a lot of money not
1:31:32
financially I you a lot of money not
1:31:32
financially I you a lot of money not having kids yeah if financial planning
1:31:34
having kids yeah if financial planning
1:31:34
having kids yeah if financial planning is your thing if learning and and and
1:31:37
is your thing if learning and and and
1:31:37
is your thing if learning and and and combating agism is your thing having
1:31:39
combating agism is your thing having
1:31:39
combating agism is your thing having kids can help yeah yeah yeah if you
1:31:42
kids can help yeah yeah yeah if you
1:31:43
kids can help yeah yeah yeah if you enjoy doing conflict resolution smaller
1:31:46
enjoy doing conflict resolution smaller
1:31:46
enjoy doing conflict resolution smaller versions of yourself with somebody else
1:31:48
versions of yourself with somebody else
1:31:48
versions of yourself with somebody else who's no good at it yeah
1:31:51
who's no good at it yeah
1:31:51
who's no good at it yeah yeah try try doing conflict resolution
1:31:55
yeah try try doing conflict resolution
1:31:55
yeah try try doing conflict resolution with a 2-year-old
1:31:57
with a 2-year-old
1:31:57
with a 2-year-old yeah or a
1:32:00
yeah or a
1:32:00
yeah or a 14-year-old hey my kids are in the 30s
1:32:02
14-year-old hey my kids are in the 30s
1:32:02
14-year-old hey my kids are in the 30s and I still have problems right so um
1:32:06
and I still have problems right so um
1:32:06
and I still have problems right so um actually my son's going to be here
1:32:07
actually my son's going to be here
1:32:07
actually my son's going to be here tomorrow I'm really looking uh forward
1:32:09
tomorrow I'm really looking uh forward
1:32:09
tomorrow I'm really looking uh forward to it I haven't seen him in two years in
1:32:10
to it I haven't seen him in two years in
1:32:11
to it I haven't seen him in two years in person so um anyway so uh thank we're a
1:32:16
person so um anyway so uh thank we're a
1:32:16
person so um anyway so uh thank we're a little bit over time uh sorry Simon and
1:32:19
little bit over time uh sorry Simon and
1:32:19
little bit over time uh sorry Simon and uh I I want to thank all of you for
1:32:22
uh I I want to thank all of you for
1:32:22
uh I I want to thank all of you for being on the show I wish this longer
1:32:24
being on the show I wish this longer
1:32:24
being on the show I wish this longer because I think we all have a lot to
1:32:26
because I think we all have a lot to
1:32:26
because I think we all have a lot to give but you know we all have limited
1:32:28
give but you know we all have limited
1:32:28
give but you know we all have limited time and we all want to get to the
1:32:29
time and we all want to get to the
1:32:29
time and we all want to get to the weekend and and uh but I want to thank
1:32:32
weekend and and uh but I want to thank
1:32:32
weekend and and uh but I want to thank all of you for not only accept you know
1:32:34
all of you for not only accept you know
1:32:34
all of you for not only accept you know coming on the show but giving all of you
1:32:37
coming on the show but giving all of you
1:32:37
coming on the show but giving all of you great advice and you know for for for
1:32:40
great advice and you know for for for
1:32:40
great advice and you know for for for everybody watching I hope this will uh
1:32:43
everybody watching I hope this will uh
1:32:43
everybody watching I hope this will uh help you you know have a long successful
1:32:45
help you you know have a long successful
1:32:45
help you you know have a long successful career uh rewarding career uh with less
1:32:49
career uh rewarding career uh with less
1:32:49
career uh rewarding career uh with less stress and and to be happy right we all
1:32:52
stress and and to be happy right we all
1:32:52
stress and and to be happy right we all want I've always believe that you need
1:32:54
want I've always believe that you need
1:32:54
want I've always believe that you need to find a job you're happy with and and
1:32:57
to find a job you're happy with and and
1:32:57
to find a job you're happy with and and and for the most part software
1:32:59
and for the most part software
1:32:59
and for the most part software engineering has been really great for me
1:33:01
engineering has been really great for me
1:33:01
engineering has been really great for me um uh but you need to find that and and
1:33:03
um uh but you need to find that and and
1:33:03
um uh but you need to find that and and stick with it so thanks everybody for
1:33:06
stick with it so thanks everybody for
1:33:06
stick with it so thanks everybody for being on the show I've got a couple more
1:33:07
being on the show I've got a couple more
1:33:07
being on the show I've got a couple more slides I'll stick I'll hang out
1:33:09
slides I'll stick I'll hang out
1:33:09
slides I'll stick I'll hang out afterwards if any of you want to chat
1:33:11
afterwards if any of you want to chat
1:33:11
afterwards if any of you want to chat really quick but uh uh if I if you don't
1:33:14
really quick but uh uh if I if you don't
1:33:14
really quick but uh uh if I if you don't uh chat after the show I hope you all
1:33:16
uh chat after the show I hope you all
1:33:16
uh chat after the show I hope you all have a great weekend and and uh and uh
1:33:19
have a great weekend and and uh and uh
1:33:19
have a great weekend and and uh and uh have fun with your family and uh thanks
1:33:22
have fun with your family and uh thanks
1:33:22
have fun with your family and uh thanks again so much for being on this special
1:33:24
again so much for being on this special
1:33:24
again so much for being on this special panel show thanks for having me thanks a
1:33:26
panel show thanks for having me thanks a
1:33:26
panel show thanks for having me thanks a lot thanks he
1:33:28
lot thanks he
1:33:28
lot thanks he everybody
1:33:30
everybody
1:33:30
everybody um wow that was Simon you awake hey he's
1:33:35
um wow that was Simon you awake hey he's
1:33:35
um wow that was Simon you awake hey he's waking up you know it's it's late in
1:33:39
waking up you know it's it's late in
1:33:39
waking up you know it's it's late in India
1:33:43
uh
1:33:45
uh
1:33:45
uh Simon maybe Simon went to the
1:33:48
Simon maybe Simon went to the
1:33:49
Simon maybe Simon went to the bathroom uh I'm trying to get him to
1:33:50
bathroom uh I'm trying to get him to
1:33:50
bathroom uh I'm trying to get him to switch
1:33:51
switch
1:33:51
switch slides um
1:33:54
slides um
1:33:54
slides um there we
1:33:55
there we
1:33:55
there we go well uh to to finish off this uh
1:34:00
go well uh to to finish off this uh
1:34:00
go well uh to to finish off this uh special panel show I want to say again
1:34:03
special panel show I want to say again
1:34:03
special panel show I want to say again uh uh I hope you will help me help the
1:34:06
uh uh I hope you will help me help the
1:34:06
uh uh I hope you will help me help the kids from the slums in in Delhi India uh
1:34:09
kids from the slums in in Delhi India uh
1:34:09
kids from the slums in in Delhi India uh by going to the voiceof slam.org and
1:34:11
by going to the voiceof slam.org and
1:34:11
by going to the voiceof slam.org and donating whatever you can whe whatever
1:34:13
donating whatever you can whe whatever
1:34:13
donating whatever you can whe whatever that is uh because you know this is a a
1:34:16
that is uh because you know this is a a
1:34:16
that is uh because you know this is a a great organization that I've uh not only
1:34:19
great organization that I've uh not only
1:34:19
great organization that I've uh not only visited but have been helping out ever
1:34:21
visited but have been helping out ever
1:34:21
visited but have been helping out ever since my first visit and uh these are
1:34:24
since my first visit and uh these are
1:34:24
since my first visit and uh these are pictures and videos from uh the last
1:34:26
pictures and videos from uh the last
1:34:26
pictures and videos from uh the last time I was there and uh you know Dave
1:34:29
time I was there and uh you know Dave
1:34:29
time I was there and uh you know Dave and chandi who do a wonderful job you
1:34:32
and chandi who do a wonderful job you
1:34:32
and chandi who do a wonderful job you know getting kids out of the slums um
1:34:35
know getting kids out of the slums um
1:34:35
know getting kids out of the slums um feeding them clothing them teaching them
1:34:38
feeding them clothing them teaching them
1:34:38
feeding them clothing them teaching them helping them with a career a learning
1:34:40
helping them with a career a learning
1:34:40
helping them with a career a learning career and and things like that
1:34:42
career and and things like that
1:34:42
career and and things like that so if you can give five bucks you know
1:34:46
so if you can give five bucks you know
1:34:46
so if you can give five bucks you know they would really really love that so uh
1:34:50
they would really really love that so uh
1:34:50
they would really really love that so uh after the show uh or right now because
1:34:53
after the show uh or right now because
1:34:53
after the show uh or right now because the show is pretty much over uh please
1:34:55
the show is pretty much over uh please
1:34:55
the show is pretty much over uh please go to the voiceof slam.org and please
1:34:57
go to the voiceof slam.org and please
1:34:57
go to the voiceof slam.org and please donate whatever you can and and keep
1:34:58
donate whatever you can and and keep
1:34:59
donate whatever you can and and keep donating because it's a great great
1:35:02
donating because it's a great great
1:35:02
donating because it's a great great organization all right with that said um
1:35:05
organization all right with that said um
1:35:05
organization all right with that said um as always um I can't donate blood right
1:35:08
as always um I can't donate blood right
1:35:08
as always um I can't donate blood right now but you can so uh you know America
1:35:11
now but you can so uh you know America
1:35:11
now but you can so uh you know America and I'm sure other countries are dealing
1:35:13
and I'm sure other countries are dealing
1:35:13
and I'm sure other countries are dealing with a huge shortage uh for some reason
1:35:16
with a huge shortage uh for some reason
1:35:16
with a huge shortage uh for some reason right now with blood donations so uh
1:35:19
right now with blood donations so uh
1:35:19
right now with blood donations so uh please please please go uh donate blood
1:35:21
please please please go uh donate blood
1:35:21
please please please go uh donate blood this weekend it only takes 30 minutes of
1:35:24
this weekend it only takes 30 minutes of
1:35:24
this weekend it only takes 30 minutes of your time and that one donation can help
1:35:27
your time and that one donation can help
1:35:27
your time and that one donation can help up to three people and and like I always
1:35:30
up to three people and and like I always
1:35:30
up to three people and and like I always say you know uh you need to bank up that
1:35:32
say you know uh you need to bank up that
1:35:32
say you know uh you need to bank up that Karma or whatever because you know uh
1:35:34
Karma or whatever because you know uh
1:35:34
Karma or whatever because you know uh someday you might need that blood and
1:35:36
someday you might need that blood and
1:35:36
someday you might need that blood and you're going to want uh people like uh
1:35:38
you're going to want uh people like uh
1:35:38
you're going to want uh people like uh yourself and and myself uh to be uh
1:35:41
yourself and and myself uh to be uh
1:35:41
yourself and and myself uh to be uh regular blood Don donators so I hope you
1:35:44
regular blood Don donators so I hope you
1:35:44
regular blood Don donators so I hope you will go through that and with that
1:35:46
will go through that and with that
1:35:46
will go through that and with that thanks so much for being on this special
1:35:48
thanks so much for being on this special
1:35:48
thanks so much for being on this special panel show I hope you all got something
1:35:50
panel show I hope you all got something
1:35:50
panel show I hope you all got something out of it uh thanks for watching the
1:35:52
out of it uh thanks for watching the
1:35:52
out of it uh thanks for watching the fourth season of Rock on the code world
1:35:55
fourth season of Rock on the code world
1:35:55
fourth season of Rock on the code world and and as always thanks to my awesome
1:35:58
and and as always thanks to my awesome
1:35:58
and and as always thanks to my awesome producer uh Simon who's always in the
1:36:01
producer uh Simon who's always in the
1:36:01
producer uh Simon who's always in the background doing an excellent job I
1:36:03
background doing an excellent job I
1:36:03
background doing an excellent job I couldn't do a show without him so thank
1:36:05
couldn't do a show without him so thank
1:36:05
couldn't do a show without him so thank you so much Simon and uh I'll see you
1:36:08
you so much Simon and uh I'll see you
1:36:08
you so much Simon and uh I'll see you all next time
1:36:12
[Applause]
1:36:20
[Applause]
1:36:20
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1:36:20
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1:36:20
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[Music]
1:36:38
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1:36:40
[Applause]
1:36:40
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[Music]
1:36:54
[Music]
1:36:54
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1:37:03
[Music]
1:37:05
[Music]
1:37:05
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Rockin’ The Code World with dotNetDave - Ep. 106

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