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Join us on March 6 with Claire Novotny on Rockin' The Code World with dotNetDave - a weekly show to learn & live Q&A on .NET and other programming technologies.
GUEST SPEAKER
Claire is the Executive Director of the .NET Foundation, and a Program Manager on the .NET team at Microsoft. She is passionate about reducing friction in the development process and creating modern software solutions to solve complex business challenges. Prior to joining Microsoft, Claire was a Regional Director and MVP, with a major focus on the open-source .NET ecosystem. She has been writing code on the Microsoft platform since the days a 2400 baud modem was considered cutting-edge.
Twitter: https://twitter.com/clairernovotny
C# Corner - Community of Software and Data Developers
https://www.c-sharpcorner.com
#CSharpCorner #rockinthecodeworls #live #dotnet
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Hey, geeks. Welcome to the 17th episode of Rockin' the Cold World with Donat Dave
2:08
I'm Donat Dave, Dave McCarter. I'm really glad you're here. I'm happy you were back. We were off
2:13
last week, which I'm kind of glad because it gave me a week to recover from the illness I was
2:20
dealing with. And so I'm all better now. I got a COVID test last week. I'm free of COVID. Yay
2:26
so I'm really excited to get back to doing shows. So this week we have Claire Navante on and I'm
2:35
really excited to interview her. She works at Microsoft and so I've been looking forward to
2:43
this. I've been following her for a while and so it'll be nice to you know chat with somebody that
2:49
you know I've only known through Twitter so far. So anyway let's get going. I got lots to do today
2:55
and lots to talk about. So Monday, I released my brand new open source project called SparGene
3:08
You can go to spargene.net to go learn about it. And these open source projects, I released four open source projects Monday
3:19
and four NuGet packages, all written 100% in .NET 5. So if you're moving to .NET 5, which you should be moving to .NET 5
3:30
because the performance increase in .NET 5 is pretty freaking amazing, if you ask me, based on the benchmarking I've done
3:39
So if you forget .NET framework, forget .NET Core, move to .NET 5 now just because of the performance gains
3:47
but there's lots of other great things in .NET 5 too. So I hope you'll go check out SparGene
3:53
Also, I hope you'll contribute. So please, you know, do a pull request and contribute to the program
4:00
And, you know, I just might send you some free cool Donna Tips swag
4:10
So and my friend Mark, I think he's asking me about that animation
4:16
Oh, the name. Oh, SparGene. So, you know, I was trying to come up with a, you know, a unique name for this project instead of calling it the .NET Tips Utility, which is kind of a boring name
4:29
So I wanted to come up with something halfway exciting. So one of the things I like to do, and my friends, my team members at work know this, is I like to make up words
4:40
So I use a word combiner on the web and I combine words together to make a new word
4:45
So that's what I did for SparGene. So Spark Gene is actually a combination of Spark and Engine
4:52
So that's how it came about. And I made that cool little animation
4:57
It gave me something to do last year. And I call that my code cannon
5:01
It's shooting out binary code. So that's what I do when I'm bored and have some free time
5:09
So anyway, I hope you go check it out. Go to Spark Gene.net
5:14
and I'm already working on the next version including comprehensive documentation. So stay tuned for all that
5:27
If you don't know by now, my brand new book is out. Here it is right here
5:34
David Carter's Down at Coding Standards for Microsoft.net, the seventh edition. And so I hope you go pick it up on Amazon
5:44
It's got over 130 new pages from the last version. And there's lots of great stuff in the new book
5:54
And it's the thickest book I've self-published. It's actually kind of heavy
5:59
So I hope you go check it out. So we're going to do some giveaways today
6:07
Everybody's going to get a copy of CodeRest from DevExpress like every week
6:11
and then we're going to give away some C-sharp corner swag too
6:16
So let's do that. Oh, first, before that, I did a Twitter
6:20
I'm doing Twitter polls all the time and basically because I have questions
6:25
about what other people are thinking most of the time. And so my question last week, I think, was
6:32
you know, what's using statement you guys doing? There's kind of like three ways
6:37
to deal with disposable objects at .NET. And actually, while I'm on this subject, there's not enough developers to worry about disposable objects
6:52
Because every code base I look at, I have to fix everything. And it takes me a long time
6:58
So you need to care about iDisposable objects. And you need to dispose of them properly when you're done using them
7:07
So in the beginning of .NET, you know, we had the try finally
7:11
That's how we did it. And we can see here no one's using that anymore
7:15
And then we got the using statement, which is a little bit confusing
7:19
because in C sharp there's also using for namespaces. And that's what we've been dealing with
7:24
We been using for a really long time And now recently they have a simple using statement that makes one line of code and i was kind of wondering you know what people prefer i kind of
7:37
kind of prefer the using statement block because that's what i'm used to and it makes it nice and
7:42
structured but you know i'm trying to use the simple using statement to kind of get used to it
7:49
and see how it goes but anyway it looks like every the majority of people at this point
7:55
are still using the um using statement block so anyway that's that poll all right so everybody
8:02
gets a copy of uh code rest from dev express the dev express it's my favorite code refactoring tool
8:10
in visual studio it's the only refactoring tool i've used in visual studio and i love it it makes
8:17
me so really really productive in my code and and it makes me code better
8:24
makes it actually teaches me things too right so please download a copy go to
8:32
devexpress.com slash Donna Dave it's free it's a real copy it's not you know
8:39
limited in any matter it's a real copy of code rest from DevExpress so if if
8:45
If you're getting into refactoring or need a better refactoring tool than what's in Visual Studio, then check this out
8:54
It's free. Why not? Right. So. And like the last show, this show to get to win the C Sharp Corner gifts, tweet a screen grab of the guest
9:11
of me interviewing Claire today and tweeted to C Sharp Corner Live Show
9:17
and to me. And Simon will pick probably the first person that does that
9:24
and you'll win the prize. And so if you do that, you'll get your name up on the show
9:31
How about that? There's an incentive besides winning free stuff because I know you guys like free stuff, right
9:36
So. Alright, so I want to talk a little, just a minute, about something that I showed you guys last year
9:49
And so if you've been following my show or following me, you know I'm working on some geek kind of related art
9:57
And this one is actually hanging up right above my desk here
10:03
And I call it my rock computer. and it's an old bass guitar that I put electronics on
10:12
and a working speaker and LED lights around it. And so anyway, you know, I've been thinking about
10:18
what my next project's going to be. So last week I was at the repair shop
10:25
where I get my guitar set up and repaired, picking up a brand new guitar to get
10:30
because they set it up for me. and and so they have some old stuff they're selling now which is which is
10:39
actually my suggestion the last time I was at the shop and so I picked this up
10:45
let me show you it's pretty pretty freaking cool yeah this is a an old
10:54
Chinese musical instrument if anybody knows what this thing is actually called
11:00
I'd really love to know the actual name of it, but I'm going to turn this into some
11:06
techie geeky art kind of thingy. And so I actually had a discussion before the show with Simon and
11:15
we might put a Raspberry Pi or something in the back here because it's hollow and
11:21
On the front me and Simon are going to work on some kind of LED display of the Wi-Fi signal in Strength in your home. Pretty cool, huh? So I'm
11:33
going to collaborate with Simon, who's my producer on this show, and we're going to do that. I think
11:38
it's pretty cool. So, you know, so what are you guys doing to keep your creative stuff going
11:45
during the pandemic or for your job, right? This is one of the things I do besides playing guitar
11:51
and doing photography and stuff like that. So if you have any ideas for something I can make
12:00
or any ideas for that guitar, please let me know. You can make a comment here
12:04
or you can just email me or tweet me. But I'm always looking for stuff to do
12:09
I actually have another project sitting over there I'm working on, which is actually an old Dell Server
12:17
dual CPU motherboard. It's freaking huge. and wait till you see what that is
12:24
So I guess that's actually my next one and then the guitars after that. So anyway, just wanted to show you guys that
12:31
and see if you guys have any opinions on what you'd like to see. So, all right
12:38
So with that, I'd like to introduce Claire. Claire is the program manager
12:42
on the .NET team at Microsoft and is also the executive director
12:47
of the .NET Foundation. She's been writing code on the Microsoft platform since the days before .NET
12:53
Me too. I was actually in production in beta one of .NET
12:59
So we have a lot to talk about. And she's passionate about empowering others to build great things, which is great
13:06
And I've been following her for a while. And that's why I asked her to be on the show
13:11
So welcome, Claire. Thank you for having me, Dave. Hey, how's it going
13:16
I'm doing well. And yourself? Good. You know, before we start, I have a favor to ask you
13:23
Sure. Ready? So when you post those pictures of food, can you delay it by three hours
13:33
Because you're making me hungry every freaking day in the middle of the afternoon
13:39
because you post those pictures of that wonderful food you make, and it makes me hungry
13:45
So stop it. Well, I'm guessing by that you're on the West Coast. So I'm based in New York City
13:50
And so that's the dangers of food Twitter, right? I know. I know
13:56
So you make me hungry every afternoon. But luckily, it comes around my snack time
14:02
Well, that's good. Hopefully, you get a chance to have something. I know
14:07
So how are you doing during the pandemic and all this stuff? I've also been watching the pictures you've been posting around
14:14
You've taken around New York City because that's where you live. Yeah. And I've been following that. So how's it going there
14:21
Oh, it's it's doing a lot better now than it was. I think that folks are in a more of a routine
14:28
like mask usage and everything else is pretty high here. I mean, no more is perfect, but in general
14:35
I think folks take it pretty seriously and it's crowded. You're on the sidewalk and there's people around
14:41
but we all do what we can to stay safe. Yeah good And hope everybody else is doing that too You know I know I know things are looking better in America at least and but don let the foot off the gas you know you we need to stay the way we doing it now until it over right or you know until we reach herd immunity so uh you know don listen to you know some
15:08
particular governors in in america and uh you know listen to the cdc right and uh uh so anyway
15:16
enough about that so um so you're the executive director at the dotnet foundation so the kind of
15:23
of the first thing I wanted to talk about really quick was, you know, just a kind of a brief
15:28
overview exactly what the .NET Foundation is and what it does. So the .NET Foundation is an
15:35
organization that is separate from Microsoft. I mean, we, Microsoft does not own or control the
15:42
organization, but it's an organization that is there to help hold the intellectual property
15:49
the IP of open source projects to help ensure the continuity, make sure that these projects are
15:56
they exist both now and in the future, that there's a healthy ecosystem for maintainers
16:03
for consumers, for new folks learning who want to use it. And it's really just there to promote
16:10
that all and just keep everything healthy. So as an executive director, what do you do
16:18
in that position? So my day-to-day job for that is mostly that of a cat herder. So
16:24
we have a board of directors, which has seven members that are all volunteers. So I thank them
16:33
generously for their time. But the board of directors lead up various committees from marketing
16:40
members, projects, outreach. There's an ecosystem growth committee now. And there's going to be an education committee that's spinning up. We have a lot of ideas on that front
16:57
And the vast majority of the work happens in those committees. These things are discussed
17:02
what should we do which project should come on what standards should there be what can we do in
17:10
various areas and my role is to keep it all moving forward what's going on who are we talking to the
17:18
right people are things moving forward and you know so it's steering that all and keeping things
17:24
on track is a lot of what I do. Yeah. That's great. And that's all side job, right? That's
17:32
not your main job. So that is part of my main job. So Microsoft has me, I work for Microsoft
17:38
on the .NET team and I wear several hats in that role. One of them is as executive director of the
17:46
foundation. So I am the only paid employee whose job, who part of their job is to be on the
17:53
foundation. But when I work and I do foundation things, I have my other hat on as a, you know
18:01
as in that role. I'm also on the PM on the Microsoft.net team, and I'm looking at secure
18:08
supply chain stories and how we work on that. It's particularly relevant these days with the
18:14
all about solar winds and those breaches. And I'm also looking at the future and strategic
18:23
direction of ms build the the tool that helps everyone who's on the dotnet platform actually
18:29
compile your code yeah yeah i've seen your tweets about that and you know one of the things i was
18:35
thinking about just while it hit my head you know i i think i asked scott hunter to do this uh when
18:42
he you know maybe after he was on my show or before he was on my show last year and um you know one of
18:47
things i wish visual studio would do was would surface more the ms build uh compiler stuff in
18:54
the properties of that project right you know and especially moving to down at five i know i was
19:00
talking to the guys in code factory yesterday and um you know and you know the differences between
19:07
the project file you know you know down at framework down at core and down at five are
19:12
really, really different. Right. And so, you know, I've tried to, you know, figure it out and I've
19:20
done things wrong, you know, and had to back things out. And so, I don't know, it would be nice
19:27
you know, if we kind of had, especially the people that don't know a lot about that stuff
19:31
it would be nice to have more switches because, you know, those things haven't changed forever
19:36
in .NET, in Visual Studio? We are actually working on a new project UI page
19:42
I believe it's available in 16.9 in the preview. You may have to turn it on in the experimental features section
19:51
In the Visual Studio options, there's an area which lets you turn on preview features
19:57
that may be a work in progress. So there is a new project UI page that applies to certain project types
20:05
in certain conditions right now and that's being worked on to help improve that because the existing
20:11
properties page that you've seen you know it's a little long in the tooth it hasn't changed much
20:15
in a very long time no no not at all hopefully that will help and be able to support some of the
20:22
more dynamic options in the project file and make it easier to discover and change without
20:27
mucking up your project file either yeah yeah yeah it's like you know one of my favorite new features
20:32
of .NET 5 is the single file executable thing. I like that. I do all my NuGet packages that
20:44
way now. Also, I like the trimmed feature too. I use CodeRush to get rid of the old stuff
20:57
in the project, but trimmed will do that too, right? Yeah, so assembly t will help get rid of all the code that you don't use in your project
21:06
So it makes it easier to say, well, we have this giant framework and all these packages
21:12
Here's the code paths you're actually using. Yeah. Where that gets a little tricky are things like reflection-based technologies, like WPF data binding
21:24
or other places where you might be using reflection to invoke code in certain cases
21:30
You need to teach or tell the trimmer that, hey, I actually kind of need that code there
21:35
So there's a lot of attention being made to that area ongoing
21:42
Yeah, yeah. I should look later. But, you know, I was looking at the sizes of my new, you know, my new SparGene assemblies
21:50
And, man, they're small. Very cool. They're pretty amazing how small they are, you know
21:56
And so I think that's cool. So anyway, I think we need more visibility
22:02
So I'll check that out later in the preview. I haven't really looked too much at the preview
22:07
since Donate 5 came out, so I'll check that out. Yeah, it should just be the same
22:12
publish trimmed equals true on the compile, on the publish option, and it will do its thing
22:19
Yeah, cool. Yeah, and Mahesh, you know, the guy who runs C Sharp Corner
22:23
just said I believe there not enough show talks about Visual Studio features I agree And that why my last two guests were you know on from the visual studio team so i plan to have uh for everybody out there you know i plan
22:36
to have more as many visual studio people i can convince to come on the show and to come on the
22:41
show and talk about those features so um and i and i plan to you know ask people who have been on the
22:47
show to come back you know like when donna six comes out and things like that so um so let's um
22:55
We don't have any questions yet. So, you know, one of the things, you know, so we have a couple of topics we can talk about during this show
23:04
And, you know, one of the things we'll see how this goes. But, you know, one of the things I learned quite a number of years ago
23:12
And the reason the way I learned this was, you know, it's actually up in Silicon Valley and to speak at the Silicon Valley Code Camp
23:23
And I went to the speaker's dinner, but I got there early and someone else from, she was from Microsoft, but she was working at GitHub, joined me and we had some drinks and talked
23:38
And she told me for the first time about this dark side of the open source world
23:45
And I didn't know it existed, because I don't do that. You know, and so, and actually, quite frankly, I've been kind of hesitant to say I'm an open source developer because of this subject
24:00
Right. And even though I am and I have been for a really long time, even before, you know, GitHub and NuGet was out
24:09
But, you know, what she told me was just floored me, you know, that, you know, the way that men, you know, treat women, you know, on, you know, these open source sites chat where you can chat and make comments and things like that
24:29
and I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe people actually waste
24:35
and spend their time doing this just really negative thing. And I just don't understand it because, you know, I'm not that way
24:44
So what do you think about this subject? I don't understand it either, right
24:55
Like, why would anyone want to be so negative? But unfortunately, I don't think it's limited just to software either
25:01
No, no. I do think that you see in many industries, many places where that women were initially dominating and it became more popular
25:13
Men came in and we kind of got pushed out. Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that computer science programming actually started out as primarily women
25:23
Yeah, I know. I know. And I've, you know, and things, you know, back when I started, you know, software engineering, you know, 27 plus years ago, you know, the demographics of software teams are a lot different, you know, than they were back then
25:41
You know, primarily back then, you know, the teams I worked with were all white, you know
25:46
And now I'm the only white person in my team and the only American in my team
25:51
and which I think that's great. And also I noticed when I first started going to conferences and stuff
26:01
there's not enough women either. And I've always wanted, I've always encouraged women
26:06
I'm mentoring a 26-year-old woman on my team right now. I helped her get into a master's degree program
26:17
I'm mentoring her in her schooling and work and other things. And so I've been working really hard at, you know, making this better
26:24
And it has gotten better, you know, in the last 27 years, but nearly not good enough, you know
26:30
And because, yeah, it was started by women, right? Women, I will flatly agree, women are usually smarter than men, you know
26:42
Sorry, sorry, all you men out there, you know, but they're way smart because they can multithread
26:47
We can't, right? And so when I see tweets, I've been seeing a lot of these tweets lately about women just complaining about what men do, you know, online
27:05
It's not just online, though. I mean. Well, yeah, I know. I know
27:10
Yeah. It's conferences, too. You have creepers everywhere. I mean. Yeah. I was outside the subway
27:18
It wasn't late. It was 8 o'clock. and you had some older person kind of coming near me and, you know, backing off
27:26
And I was like, backing off and he's kind of coming near me again
27:31
And it's just like, no, dude, back off. Eventually did, but it was very like, why would you do that
27:42
It's everywhere. Yeah, yeah. Politics too, unfortunately, right? And so, you know, because I know a lot of women, you know, have not gotten into this, you know, career or in jumping out of the career because of this
28:01
Right. And I think that's just horrible. Right. Especially when we need more women
28:05
You know, men are actively trying to get rid of them, which is insane
28:10
I think that if you just have healthy environments, treat people with respect
28:14
I don't think that women or other groups need special treatment. It's just let's just be kind to one another
28:23
Let's not do creepy things. Let's be positive. Let's be supportive. Let's be encouraged
28:29
Let's be open to new ideas and different ideas. benefit from that diversity of thought and experience that everyone brings to the table
28:41
everyone new everyone different has their own perspective that they were brought up with their
28:47
own way of thinking about a problem and you don't know which one it will be or both or all of them
28:54
that might lead to the solution that really ultimately benefits or works yeah yeah and uh
29:01
Yeah. So guys cut it out. Really? I mean, this is ridiculous. You know, it's, it's, we're all in this together. Right. And if we all help each other and collaborate and work with each other, you know, software engineering will be a lot better world to, to work in, you know, and to be in. Right. And, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on in the world. We don't need to do this too. You know, you know, we've got enough problems going on, especially in America, you know
29:30
And so, yeah, so, you know, I'd love to do more shows about this
29:37
It may be in the future. And if anybody wants me to do them, let me know. But, you know, I just wanted to at least talk about a little bit because
29:46
like I said, when when when this person, you know, first told me
29:50
you know, I just wasn't aware, you know, and so I think maybe part of the
29:55
you know, part of the solution is just the awareness. Right. It's not something that people want to actively bring up and talk about, but it's absolutely there
30:06
And as, yeah, you know, most people who are not targets of this, you're just not going to see it
30:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, okay, guys, cut it out, you know, or just stop doing it to anybody
30:22
I don't care what it is, women, people of color, it doesn't matter, right
30:26
We all have something to give and to try to cut somebody out is just, you're not my friend if you do that
30:34
Let's put it that way. I hate to say it. I'm not being politically correct
30:40
I'm being correct. You know, so. There's no politics in doing the right thing
30:46
Right, right. Politics. So, see, what else can we talk about
30:56
speaking. So you want to talk a little bit about speaking? You know, what's, I know I
31:03
unfortunately, have, I'm used to my speaking withdrawal right now, you know, which I don't
31:08
like to be. Oh, it's so hard. I mean, I don't know about you. I mean, I've mostly been avoiding
31:16
the virtual conference circuit. Yeah. Have you done any of the virtual conferences
31:21
I have. The first one I did last year was NDC and then I've done a bunch for C-Strap Corner and I've
31:29
done some other conferences last year. And me personally, I don't enjoy them near as much
31:38
as being in person. For me, I mean, I love speaking. I love helping people out. I help
31:45
hopefully showing folks you know some something new and learning with them together and doing it
31:54
on a virtual screen feels to me it's very one way it feels to me like it's all of the work
32:02
of assembling those talks taking a ton of time so yeah i'm sure you know and you know i don't think
32:08
most people in the audience truly understand how much time and effort goes into even a 20 minute
32:15
or 30 minute or 60 minute talk yeah i mean we don't get paid for this no no even if it's part
32:23
of our jobs officially we're spending plenty of personal time on these things yep and you know
32:31
for me part of the reward of giving these talks is that interaction the person to person you know
32:38
let's talk after the event one-on-one yeah let's you know meet up after the session let's
32:46
connect and figure things out or if i can help people or just network and get to know everyone
32:54
if those are all the human things that are you know i haven't yet really seen it done well in
33:00
a virtual setting that works for me yeah yeah me neither and uh you know i've been thinking a lot
33:06
about this recently and and one of the things that um you know for me because the way this the way i
33:13
speak and you know part of the way i speak is i don't ever sit or stand behind the podium ever
33:19
right i'm constantly walking and i walk an average of three miles per hour you know when i'm doing um
33:26
sessions which that's amazing you get your exercise in and you give a talk like right did you do
33:32
during your talk. Yeah, I calculated it once, so it was a lot, you know, and I forget what it was
33:40
now, but, you know, that was like five or six years ago, but yeah, it's a lot, and, but, you know
33:45
part of, you know, walking and the style that I speak in, you know, boosts my endorphins
33:55
right, and that's why I actually get a real big letdown when I stop speaking, you know
34:00
when the hour's over and it actually causes some depression in a way too but
34:06
it's over yeah yeah yeah but the the endorphins is you know what really helps
34:11
me do a good process session and helps me keep my weight off right because I've
34:17
lost 130 pounds and so so I really missed that part but you're right about
34:22
the in-person part because you know one of the things and I'm sure every every
34:26
speaker will complain about is when you know when you're speaking online like this you know yeah I get to talk to you but if I'm doing a conference I am
34:34
talking to nobody right and no one to make eye contact with you play you know
34:38
the room or the energy in it yeah and and I do that you know I look I try to
34:44
look at every single person in my audience right and I usually pick out a
34:47
couple people to focus on you know just so I'm not looking at everybody the
34:52
whole time, you know, but I try to look at everybody, but, and that's how you were talking
34:57
about reading the room. That's how I read the room. Right. And I instantly change my talk based
35:03
on what I'm seeing in people's eyes and expressions. Right. Yeah. And you can't do that online. Right
35:11
I'm seeing some hope. I mean, I was browsing, you know, I came across my Twitter feed the other day
35:16
that ndc oslo seems to have an open cfp now and they're aiming for an in-person event the november
35:26
was it september 13th to 17th it's on their site and fingers crossed maybe we'll be have enough
35:35
vaccines by then like it's some hope anyway yeah i'll i'll definitely have my vaccine by then because
35:46
because I should be able to get it pretty soon, I hope. And so I'm, you know, my big thing is I'm not going on a plane
35:55
I'm not traveling, nothing until I get the vaccine, right? You know, I have not gone 10 miles from my house
36:01
you know, in a year, you know, and- I can't wait for the party
36:05
Once it's over, once the world opens up again, it's like, get me on an airplane
36:11
I want to go anywhere. Anywhere. I don't care. Anywhere. I don't care where it is. I'll go to Palm Springs. I don't care. You know, it's it's it's I don't. Yeah, I'm so I have cabin fever so bad. It's just not funny, you know, and cabin fever withdrawal from human contact
36:31
I mean, yeah, I got my hair done yesterday and that's literally in the last year, the only time I get a hug because, you know, my hairdresser, I live, I'm single, I live alone
36:46
And, you know, my hairdresser, I've known since the 90s. And so we've known each other a long time and she actually lives near me now
36:55
And so I just go to her house, you know, to get my hair done. and yeah, that's like the only time I get a human contact
37:05
It's crazy. It is, but light at the end of the tunnel
37:09
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, I don't think this is announced
37:14
and I don't know if Hess is going to get mad at me, but I know he's thinking about doing a speaker tour later on in the year
37:22
of me and Magnus and him and a couple other people to go go tour Europe I never actually spoken in Europe And I never actually really been in Europe except for airports
37:38
And that's where my heritage is from. And so I really want to go and check out, you know, kind of where I'm from
37:47
Yeah, Europe's amazing. I mean, I can say I was in England a couple of times, London for NDC
37:54
the last, oh, so I can't say last year, that didn't happen. Oh wait, this year, but previous
38:01
two. And I did Tech-A-Rama and the Dev Sum in Sweden, and every country, every city there
38:13
was beautiful and amazing, and I just want to see more. And then, you know, pandemic
38:19
shut everything down so it's like let's let's go i know i've i was really really bummed when that
38:27
happened last year because there's two conferences i really wanted to go to last year one was
38:34
you know the my first ndc conference right i was chosen to speak at um ndc in portugal and
38:42
i've never been there either and so i really really wanted to go and especially because i've
38:46
been trying to get into ndc and so i finally got in and i couldn't go it's so bummed you know and
38:53
then um i was supposed to speak in um russia too and uh of course that got shut down you know i've
39:01
been trying to go back to i spoke in ukraine in 2015 and i've been trying to go back ever since
39:06
i freaking love the ukraine you know it's it's so beautiful i've heard nice things about it i've
39:13
I've never personally been. Yeah, it's so beautiful where I was. I went to a city in Lviv called Lviv
39:22
which is, I think it's north east of Kiev, I think. And before I went there
39:33
I was actually speaking in Los Angeles and somebody from the Ukraine came up to me after my talk
39:38
and said, what city are you going to? And I said, Lviv. And he goes, oh my God
39:42
That's the most beautiful city in the Ukraine. And after being there, I can't imagine anything better, to tell you the truth
39:48
I'll make sure to check that out if I'm in the neighborhood. And the food, oh my God, the food is so good there
39:57
And coffee, oh, I hate American coffee. Americans don't have coffee. They have diluted something
40:06
Brown water. It's dessert. yeah that was the ukrainian coffees they also they also have a lot of turkish coffee there too
40:16
and uh the ukrainian coffee i cannot drink without putting some sugar in it it is so freaking strong
40:23
and uh kind of like that was right up my alley bring it so i've been trying to go back oh i didn't go to the place where they like coffee on fire i really
40:34
wanted to go to that place. Coffee on fire? That sounds... Some coffee bar where they like coffee
40:39
on fire, you know. Yeah. And this is in Ukraine? Yeah, yeah. That sounds amazing. Yeah, yeah. And
40:47
one of the trips I did, so the conference was really awesome because, you know, I told them
40:53
you know, this is my first time in Ukraine. If I'm coming there, I want to do stuff, you know and so they arranged two private tours for me private a driver a tour guide and me
41:04
it was very cool and the first uh the first tour which was the day after the big conference
41:10
uh we drove i think an hour or so to or hour two outside the city and we and uh we went to these
41:19
uh three castles that were built in like the 11th and 12th centuries
41:22
Sounds incredible. I never have seen anything like that before. And the first one we had lunch in and my tour guide, her name's Diana
41:35
She knew the person who ran the restaurant. So the person in the restaurant put us in a room by ourselves, right
41:43
And it was one of those rooms like you saw out of the Knights of the Round Table kind of movies, right
41:49
everything's brick and there's animal skins on the wall all the chairs and the tables that is big
41:55
thick heavy wood you know and it's real it's not the fakie stuff you see in america right
42:01
and uh you know at lunchtime you know when we're waiting for our food you know she she says to me
42:07
she goes dave i i think do you want to go back to the hotel and i go why she goes you don't look
42:15
like you're that interested i go oh yes i am i'm just in shock you know and i don't know what to
42:23
say because i've never seen anything like this i've never been in a building that old in my life
42:29
right and i'm just information overload right that's amazing i mean yeah america is a young
42:36
country we look at it you know 200 years you know or 200 years old some of the earlier settlements
42:43
16s 40s and or maybe a little earlier but you look at europe or the middle east and those parts of
42:52
the world and you look at the ruins that they have in the history and you know i was in when
42:59
i visited jerusalem you know you're there or in haifa or any of the areas there you're places that
43:07
are a thousand years bce there's you know you just for me i would love to imagine the history the
43:16
people over the 3 000 years old like 3 000 years of history occurred between when that stone this
43:24
structure was there and today and like like wow yeah yeah yeah and it's it's uh it's it's pretty
43:35
cool you know like you said you know us in america you know we don't get to see those kind
43:40
of things right if we see a castle america it's fake you know and um yeah you know people go to
43:46
that uh you know the the the dinner thing the dinner theater thing where they're doing jousting
43:52
and stuff like that come on really they're good they're fun they're good actors yeah but uh yeah
44:01
I love doing that. And one of the things I love is I love traveling and speaking in different
44:07
not only different places in America, but different countries, because I love learning
44:11
how software engineering is different from place to place. And it's literally different from every
44:17
region you go to. I don't care if it's Southern California, Northern California
44:21
back East, Texas, it's all different. And the one thing that I really noticed
44:30
uh oh there's two things i'd like to point out the one thing is uh i was asked the toughest questions
44:36
at a conference in the ukraine yeah i they they stopped me you know and most conferences can't do
44:43
that you know and so they were they were pretty hard with their questions there they and they came
44:48
prepared that good that awesome yeah it great and then the other thing was before i spoke at the conference i was standing in the back there were about i don know three or four hundred people there i think and um in this one big gigantic room and um and standing in back and
45:06
one of the you know girls who was running the conference comes up to me and you know i was
45:10
looking around before that and i asked her i said and and i noticed there were a lot of women in the
45:16
audience a lot i mean more than i've ever seen at a conference and you know i asked her i said are
45:24
Are all these women here programmers? You know, because, you know, I thought maybe they were just here with their boyfriends or husbands or something
45:31
And she goes, no, they're all programmers. And I go, so what do you think the ratio of, you know, men to women are in the Ukraine
45:39
And she said 40 percent are women. And I think that's very good
45:44
Yeah. So whatever they're doing over there, they're doing better. We are. Sounds like I need to check out a conference in Ukraine
45:52
Yeah. Yeah. So what's like a conference you really like going to in a different country or city or something
45:59
So, I mean, NBC was fun. I mean, they've always been very hospitable. And DevSum and TechRam were all fantastic
46:07
I mean, the European conferences really know how to put on an event and treat their speakers quite well
46:14
So quite enjoy all of those. And, you know, I would like to try others, right
46:21
I'd love to go to Australia at some point although that is a heck of a flight
46:27
but I'd just go for a couple of weeks at that point
46:31
and work for an extra week or two from down under just to have some time to explore
46:38
Yeah, I've tried to get to the NDC there and I can't get accepted
46:42
and I also want to go speak in New Zealand too I might stay there
46:48
because they did one of the best countries on the pandemic I don't know. They're not going to let us in. We're plane carriers
46:57
Well, I just got a COVID test, so maybe they'll let me in. But yeah, I love going to different
47:05
places and that's what I really miss, you know, and the human interaction. And that's, you know
47:10
because I work at home and I live alone, that's how I get a lot of my interaction, you know, and I
47:15
I haven't had that for over a year now. So, yeah, it's, there's some other point I wanted to make about speaking
47:26
I don't know. Any other tips you have about speaking while I'm trying to remember what I was trying to think
47:30
One thing I do enjoy doing is also trying to help others who aren't as well known
47:36
Like people say, what do I want to speak about? What should, what do I know
47:40
I see this a lot around people that haven't spoken yet or maybe more junior developers
47:47
And, you know, I think it goes one thing that just always needs to be said
47:53
I always we I always know we all feel like imposters every time we go up there
47:58
And the other part is that just because others are telling a similar story, they're not your story
48:07
I think the thing I always try and mentor and guide folks who are asking me for help coming up with, what do I talk about
48:16
I kind of ask back, what is it you enjoy doing? What's that technology that you're doing
48:22
What's your recent project? What was the last thing that you did that was really exciting to you
48:28
And it doesn't even matter what it is, whether it's seemingly beginner or something
48:35
I think the interesting thing, and I try and coach folks, are how did you learn it
48:42
What's your story? What's your journey to get from where you were before to figuring this thing out
48:50
And what did you learn from it? And that's a story that is uniquely theirs and would often hopefully catch and resonate with the audience
49:01
because all of those audiences are always going to have someone else who might be just like that
49:07
other person they're gonna be like they're beginner or they say look that sounds really
49:12
interesting and they're gonna put themselves in the speaker's shoes and try and learn how did they
49:19
get from where they were to the end point and it's that telling a story that's about how you
49:28
learned something, how you did something is not something anyone else can do. No one else can take
49:35
it. It's not yet another story in an ocean because it's uniquely yours. I think you always
49:42
everyone has something to tell if they want. I totally agree. 100%. And my thing, my thinking
49:51
you know because i've been speaking for 27 years and and and writing for 27 years and uh you know
49:58
one of one of the things i tell people usually privately is it my goal is just to reach one
50:04
person that's it you know and that's why the tagline on my website is you know improving
50:09
code quality one developer at a time right because that's my goal i just want to touch one sorry i
50:17
one inspire one person you know uh when i do a talk right and uh uh and that's my goal so if i
50:25
do that i'm happy right and so hopefully more people will get something from it right but
50:30
i only go for one yeah yeah and and with that there's always going to be one person the audience
50:37
doesn't like you so it's all right i don't have to like everyone and they don't have to like me
50:43
Yeah. Yeah. So kind of forget the negativity when you hear that, you know
50:49
if they're posted on YouTube, don't read them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody's got an opinion
50:58
you know, and if I help one person, I don't really care about everybody else's opinion
51:03
Absolutely. So I do have a question. Oh, we've got a couple of questions now
51:09
Oh, crap. We only have nine minutes left. So someone asked they want to learn .NET Core. So
51:17
can you tell them quick where they could go learn .NET Core
51:21
I would say go to there's a lot of 101 learning content on .NET slash learn. And so if you go there
51:30
there's a lot of pointers to some videos, to some LinkedIn learning courses that are free
51:36
there's also the a whole bunch of plural site courses that if you have access to that
51:42
there's a lot of great content um i think if you start on dot dot net and there's slash learn
51:50
you'll have a good directory to a lot of that yeah yeah and i also recommend uh checking out
51:57
plural site yeah i think you can get a month for free or two weeks for free and so plural site's a
52:02
great place to learn and uh i highly if you're learning i highly recommend getting a plural size
52:09
subscription um so yeah um uh so the other question was um uh what to learn down at core uh what do
52:22
you don like about offline conferences what simon what do you mean about offline Like recorded Yeah in person
52:37
In person, in person. In person conferences. Oh, in person. What don't you like about in person conferences
52:48
Is that what you're asking? Yep. Oh, okay. Yes. So Claire, what don't you like about in-person conference
52:57
What don't I like about in-person conferences? Well, I don't know. I mean, some conferences, the food is less than ideal, and you're hungry, and you're crowded, and you're like, all right
53:13
Or it's depending on the time, and you're like, I have to prepare for my talk, and lunch is over there
53:19
and I'm not eating first because like maybe many of you, I get the pre-talk butterflies and I'm just like, I'm not hungry
53:30
After my talk is done, I'll be starving, but then there'll be nothing left
53:34
Right, right, right. Or I'll be caught up in the conversation, which I love with everyone else
53:41
Meanwhile, I'm like eyeing the steak or the food or there's something over there
53:45
And I'm like, I don't want to be rude. I want to talk to everyone here, but I also want to eat
53:51
Yeah, I have to eat gluten-free. And so that's always a struggle at conferences
53:57
But, you know, I thought about this a little bit ago and I'll say it again is all you conferences in America, you need to learn from foreign conferences because foreign conferences treat their speakers really, really well
54:12
Right. I mean, I am taking care of so well at conferences, not in this country
54:17
it just floors me you know that they bend over backwards to take care of me even my dietary
54:24
restrictions any weird things I might like to you know have you know when I speak and you know things
54:30
like that and American conferences basically just say that big F you to you you know and so American
54:37
conferences I don't like speaking here anymore and it's because of the way you treat your speakers
54:41
and this is how you make money or this is how you you gain you get people to come to your conferences
54:47
if you don't treat us well guess what I'm not coming back you know and there's
54:51
some conferences I won't go to anymore in America because of that and so come
54:56
on really I mean it's it's like treating authors bad right oh wait they do that
55:01
too never mind so so my friend mark asked you know what are your favorite
55:12
Twitter accounts to follow? Ah, Twitter accounts. Unfortunately, I don't have them memorized. Like
55:20
so I couldn't tell you right off the top of my head. But there are a whole bunch of lists out
55:27
there. Practically speaking, there's one there's a dotnet team alias or list if you want to follow
55:34
all of the members on the dotnet team. If it's I believe the list is published from the dotnet
55:39
Twitter account. Definitely check that out. We also have the .NET Foundation, .NET FDN
55:46
where we tweet out news and try and amplify other community projects and news. And we do that out of
55:54
that account for any foundation member and anything that's relevant to the .NET community. It's
56:00
definitely not a Microsoft handle, the .NET FDN one. The other accounts, I don't know, anything that
56:08
has fun tweets that starts food fights. Let's get that Chicago pizza versus
56:17
Chicago versus New York pizza. I mean, is that a pizza or a casserole or a pie
56:24
A cake? Cake, yeah, maybe. Or pie. I think I call Chicago
56:30
a pie, not a pizza. Too thick for a pizza. Now I'm just asking
56:38
for a fight yeah yeah you know uh in 2015 i was actually in new york city speaking at the
56:45
code camp there and because i eat gluten-free i was literally if i really wanted some new york
56:51
pizza but i was deathly afraid to ask somebody in one of those restaurants to make a gluten-free
56:56
pizza because i i kept hearing seinfeld you know the the soup nazi uh guy in my head going get out
57:03
out of here we don't have no gluten-free pizza for you get out so I didn't have any because I was a
57:10
I was afraid I was gonna get kicked out of the restaurant so okay enough laughing
57:19
do we care I think we took care of all the questions oh we'll do one more because we
57:28
We only have a couple minutes left. So Mahesh asks, what's the most exciting technology
57:34
you were most excited about at Microsoft's working on right now? It's the most exciting technology
57:40
Oh, there's so much. I mean, ah, that's a tough one. I mean, I'll be biased and I'll say .NET
57:47
and I know that is not shocking probably, but I think that it is that along with some of the UI stacks
57:54
we're doing with .NET MAUI and some of the community projects like Uno platform allow the .NET technology stack
58:03
to really work everywhere. So as people who have followed me for a while
58:07
or probably know, not a huge fan of HTML, JavaScript, and CSS
58:13
I kind of get scared by those divs in CSS and JavaScript
58:19
My thoughts on JavaScript can be summed into, I like my compiler to give me errors, thank you
58:24
and TypeScript doesn't quite get there for me. I'm with you on that
58:30
Uno is pretty cool. They allow you to write WinUI, modern UI style XAML
58:37
and have that work everywhere on the desktop apps and on the web through WebAssembly
58:45
And then GUNNET MAUI will allow you to have XAML, a different flavor that works on iOS and Android
58:52
and on the Mac and on Windows. so you can write applications that are cross-platform pretty easily
58:59
and get that native performance. Always been a fan of native over the, you know, put too much on the web
59:07
and, you know, there's always a pendulum. And for a while it shifted entirely to the web
59:15
And I think that some of these newer technologies kind of allow it
59:19
to shift back a little bit because the effort of creating native isn't so bad when you can
59:25
have native and the web much more easily. Well, that's one of the big reasons the web got so popular, right
59:32
Is because, you know, we didn't have to install native apps and we could do things, you know
59:37
in this generic browser, you know, and we had to deal with JavaScript and, you know
59:42
but now we can use Blazor and, you know, other technologies coming down the pipe
59:46
And now you can use Blazor in a desktop application for a component
59:54
Scott Hunter talked about that last week at .NET Comp, focus on the desktop
59:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so cool. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to Blazor
1:00:04
I'm interested in Blazor and .NET 6, of course. I haven't tried .NET 6 yet, but I'm looking forward to it
1:00:11
Oh, .NET 6, go for it. I mean, if you're already on .NET 5, our goal is to make going from 5 to 6 to 7
1:00:18
as seamless and as painless as possible. Yeah, yeah. I maintain NuGet Package Explorer, as many of you may know
1:00:25
and that's already running on .NET 6 Preview 1. I shifted that over as soon as there was a Preview 1 build available
1:00:35
And so if any of you are running that, you're already running .NET 6 Preview 1 apps on your machine
1:00:41
And I got support for ARM64 on that for free, basically. So that's fantastic
1:00:48
Cool. Yeah, that's great. What was I going to say about that
1:00:53
I forgot. The show is over time. So I think we got all the questions answered
1:01:01
So before we go, I do want to ask you, besides, you know, posting those pictures three hours before I want you to, you know, what do you like to do for fun
1:01:12
Besides that? For fun, I have to say I am a huge I like photography
1:01:17
I like to go around and try and take a lot of I do scenery, landscapes, but then I'll go on photo hunts
1:01:24
Like I'll set a goal where one time in the fall or in the late fall, I kind of said, I want to get a picture of bees on flowers
1:01:33
Just to like have a target, have a mission, as it were. And I took a number of those and I posted those online
1:01:42
So really just trying to find something, an outlet for the creativity
1:01:47
Cool. Yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm an award-winning photographer and I actually work for a lot of rock bands, including big recording acts
1:01:55
You know, when they come into town, they call me up and say, Hey, Dave, come do photos of our concert and stuff
1:01:59
And so I rarely exchange notes at some point, right? Like, yeah, that that's there in that URL
1:02:05
But if you go to the, to the root of that site, it's hosted on SmugMug, which I love their gallery system
1:02:13
I have a bunch of galleries, including the, the one with the bees is there somewhere
1:02:18
Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I've actually been updating my smug mug this this week, actually
1:02:24
That and Lightroom. I love Lightroom Classic. The new Lightroom doesn't exist for me. It's Lightroom Classic
1:02:30
Export that to smug mug and yeah, party on. Yeah. I use Lightroom too. I've been using it for a long time
1:02:37
I have Adobe Cloud, you know, and yeah. And for a couple of years, I got them to give it to me for free
1:02:44
I strong armed them because I told them on Microsoft MVP and they gave me it for like two or three years for free Very cool Yeah I think I found a promo at the Christmas season where there was some discount
1:02:56
I'm like, grab that. Yeah. Well, you know, you gave me an idea
1:03:02
Maybe we should do like a geek photo challenge like monthly, you know
1:03:06
and challenge geeks to go take a picture, you know, with their iPhone or picture
1:03:10
I like that. I mean, one of the things I always, sometimes I like the freeform walks
1:03:15
I'll just kind of go out with my camera and a couple of lenses and just see what inspires me
1:03:20
But other times, having a goal, like let me aim this, especially when we're not traveling a lot
1:03:27
And it's like, I know the park. I know my immediate neighborhood. So trying to keep the inspiration and see or think of something different, like the bees, at that point, I'm like, all right
1:03:39
The whole point was to see, can I get the honeybees on the flowers and such in different ways
1:03:46
So it was something different within the familiar to keep it more of something to do
1:03:51
Cool. Yeah, we should talk about that. And here's a tip for you if you're taking pictures of flowers, right
1:03:58
If I know I'm going to someplace like the Balboa Park here, which used to, which a long time ago did the World's Fair
1:04:05
they have a rose garden down there that has roses all year you know and so one of the tips I do when
1:04:13
I go take pictures of flowers is I take a little spray bottle of water and I spray the water on
1:04:20
the sheet to get the dew drops on it yeah yeah because dew drops make it look so much better
1:04:27
right oh totally and but that's so hard to find because you have to do it like first thing in the
1:04:31
morning or something, right? Yeah, but the light first thing in the morning is the reward for that
1:04:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Actually, one of the photos that got into the photography
1:04:41
exhibit was one I did exactly like that. I was hiking with my girlfriend at the time, you know
1:04:47
early in the morning, and I got this awesome photo that I actually blew up in print and gave it to
1:04:53
you know, one of the people I know, you know, my therapist, you know, to hang on her wall
1:04:58
So now whenever I go in there, I see my own picture. Very cool
1:05:03
So do you have anything to plug? We're way over time. Oh, no
1:05:07
I mean, I'd say just do good things. Contribute to open source
1:05:13
If you have questions about any of the stuff I mentioned or the foundation or .NET 6, tag me on Twitter, and I'll try and connect you with the right person or the right team
1:05:22
Yep. And one thing I say a lot, even on this show, is you have to reach out and ask people
1:05:28
You know, a lot of people like Claire and I are willing to help you, but you need to ask you know and it OK to ask you know and of course it about photography I mean hit me up whatever yeah yeah Ask me about photography music or coding It pretty much all I know Very cool All right Thanks
1:05:49
And if you want to hang out to see what you're how many people are reviewing the show, you can hang out
1:05:53
We can chat afterwards. But I really appreciate you being on the show. I really appreciate you taking some of your, you know, Saturday afternoon out and to talk to everybody and to me
1:06:03
and it was really great knowing you and i hope we can collaborate on like photography stuff and and
1:06:09
yeah i'd love to meet you in person once we get out there and get this likewise and thank you so
1:06:13
much for having me here it's been a lot of fun yeah thank you very much i'll see you next time
1:06:19
see you all right well that was great i really well i enjoyed talking to all my guests i i guess
1:06:25
i'm biased that way but uh i had a great time talking to claire and and uh getting to know her
1:06:30
a bit and uh and i'm glad i did you know and this is what you know how we you know get to know each
1:06:36
other and make things better in our world is by getting to know each other and so this is one of
1:06:41
those ways and i hope i help you get to know you know the people in our world uh that you should be
1:06:47
listening to so i hope i help that with with that let me know if i do or don't um all right so we've
1:06:54
got a couple more things i think to talk about one or two more things uh don't forget about the
1:07:01
azure cosmos db conference i'll be uh watching i'm not speaking uh but i'll be watching so uh that's
1:07:07
on april 20th and uh 21st uh so go uh to that url go sign up and uh mark brown uh you know who was on
1:07:16
my show last year uh here's he's uh spearheading that and uh we're gonna do some cross promotion
1:07:22
i think on c sharp corner live too i'm not sure i simon knows better than that than i do um
1:07:30
i really appreciate you all watching um i'm glad i'm back but we're actually off next week
1:07:36
and the reason we're off is because c-sharp corner is doing their first power platform
1:07:41
virtual conference and so i'm actually glad we don't have a show because i want to attend
1:07:47
i'm not speaking either because i really don't know a lot about the power platform i've played
1:07:51
around with it but i'm definitely uh don't know enough to speak about it so um i i will be watching
1:07:58
that uh this uh coming week so i hope you will do i hope you will too um please be safe i talked
1:08:05
about this at the beginning of the show uh covet is still not good in america um you know we have
1:08:11
over half a million people have died in america now uh so please please be safe listen to the cdc
1:08:18
Don't listen to government. Listen to the CDC. I think things will be a lot better if you do
1:08:24
I'll speak as well. Oh Alexa reminding me my iced tea is ready Thanks Alexa And if you able please donate at your local blood bank I couldn two weeks ago because I was sick
1:08:39
but I do plan to go in a couple more weeks. It's free, and you help your fellow human
1:08:45
It doesn't cost anything except for a little bit of your time, and it makes you feel really good
1:08:53
because you're helping a human stay alive, right? So also make sure you email suggestions about the show to me
1:09:02
what you like on the show, what you don't like on the show, what guests you want me to invite on the show
1:09:09
So far, I haven't got a single email. So come on, the 17th show
1:09:14
I know you guys have opinions, right? So email me there at rockincodeworld at sheesharpcorner.com
1:09:21
and I'll address everything, especially since I'm not getting anything. So come on, send me an email
1:09:28
I don't know if anybody won the C-Sharp Corner stuff, but I hope somebody did
1:09:34
And with that, thanks a lot and I'll see you in two weeks. Thank you
1:10:21
Thank you
1:10:51
Thank you
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