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How to make a multimillion-pound business selling biscuits: Harriet Hastings #9
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Dec 5, 2024
Building a successful business takes a focused mind and a steady hand. One look at the intricate biscuits made by entrepreneur Harriet Hastings, and it’s clear she has both. In this episode of Founder Favourites, Hastings tells Jennifer Sieg and Emmanuel Nwosu how she launched and scaled her multimillion-pound biscuit brand, Biscuiteers, in the span of 17 years. By mastering the craft of branding and marketing (and of course icing), the 60-year-old entrepreneur is now eyeing up overseas. Major retailers across the US, one of their largest exporters in recent years, are next. Get more Founder Favourites here 👇 https://linktr.ee/city__am Get more of City AM 👇 🌐 http://www.cityam.com X(formerly Twitter): http://twitter.com/CityAM Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cityam Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/city_am LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/cityam Produced by: Jennifer Sieg, Emmanuel Nwosu, Joseph Curay Teneda, Joe Lee #entrepreneurship #entrepreneur #founder #business #startup #startuplife #food #retail #biscuit #cookies
View Video Transcript
0:00
what would you say like the difference between like you know cooking SL baking for like your family and then doing it
0:06
for work you know like what's the difference like is yeah I mean I guess we were talking about this earlier in terms of your family cooking but surely
0:12
you don't like baking that much if you all you do is work with baking or maybe to be honest it's like making a job or
0:19
getting a job in something you love people tell you not to do it because it ruins what you love but I don't know I I haven't really found that yet like yeah
0:25
I wonder if like football players can actually like play football for fun I'm sure I mean I'm sure they I would be
0:30
yeah but I would weird analogy yeah that's not a good one s right I mean I would be cut this out and we went to a
0:36
bakery in New York and we saw some ice cookies and we thought it was kind of
0:41
our light bulb moment and we thought oh my God that's incredible um they are essentially biscuits are blank canvas um
0:49
they can be anything you want them to be so that thing about creating a kind of more sophisticated more personalized
0:54
product that could be um designed for all sorts of occasion I mean I sometimes
1:00
say that we are really running a design business in general terms I think that being an entrepreneur is a lonely
1:06
business and it carries a lot of uh responsibility and challenges along the way so yeah absolutely I'm I think coof
1:13
finder is a great [Music]
1:21
idea cookies or biscuits cookies or bisc I mean depends on what you're what you're asking here are cookies better
1:27
than bis wait a minute yeah they're not the same thing are they no like cookies and milk or biscuits and gravy see the
1:37
UK they have things backwards here so I was just starting to deal with like you know Crips and chips and that difference
1:45
and fries fries crisp yeah now they call biscuits cookies and what's the
1:52
other one I'm thinking of what else and you say now they call they've always called biscuit I mean yeah I mean I'm
1:58
realizing it no they ation is heightened today yeah
2:04
yeah so everybody uh today the podcast is actually about biscuits um for the UK
2:13
view viewers and listeners that is biscuits as in the the the sweet sugar biscuit um and for our you mean for the
2:19
US no and for the US viewers this is technically a cookie oh okay we're just
2:26
this is so C no we're keeping all of this in
2:33
right and basically we have the founder of biscuit teers uh and it is a
2:39
confectionary brand basically um specializes in sugar cookies with icing
2:44
so really fun designs and you know they they have everything from Christmas designs to gingerbread houses to um
2:51
Halloween boo baskets that we're probably going to talk about because Emanuel is obsessed with them now um I
2:56
just learned about it it's a gifting basket for Halloween two minutes ago love yeah and so but what's interesting
3:02
is they have quite a big International presence they're they're launching in the US and they kind of have to go
3:08
through luckily she's really well well known in branding um but you kind of have to go through you know that
3:14
different culture in terms of what a manual and I know is biscuits is not sweet and confectionary it is Savory and
3:22
Flaky like a scone um whereas we call them cookies with the sweet I'm getting
3:28
so confused in my words now does this make sense Joey our producer is laughing at us um
3:35
I'm getting so confused we we're honestly keeping all the in so biscuits is apparently like the UK's original
3:40
hand ice Biscuit Company it launched in 2007 yes and well I mean he said it
3:46
better than I did they have a clear mission to offer you know more stylish and personalized
3:52
gifts um of biscuits which are cookies for our us listeners and we do have a
3:59
lot of us listeners I will say that cuz I get some texts from my friends back home so it's good that we established
4:05
that that we're talking about biscuits as in the suite this time around yes biscuit tear not the cookie
4:10
tears um well yeah so they have um they have an ice Cafe located in nton
4:17
hill so you guys can go check it out if uh after this podcast um if you know you're feeling a little bit hungry and
4:23
you want to try some biscuits yeah it's a really interesting brand um given that you know launching in 2007 and
4:30
apparently they're not being really a big market for icing of cookies and gifting and and e-commerce and things
4:35
like that so they kind of have a lot of channels that they work across um like Emanuel said they have an icing Cafe
4:41
where people come and it's an experience and not just you know you don't go in and buy cookies and then that's the end of it um you know you can bring your
4:47
children in and your friends in and Ice biscuits for the day and learn how to do it because apparently it's quite complicated and if anybody here has made
4:54
a gingerbread house they definitely know that yeah I mean I'm really looking forward to speaking with Harry and
5:00
learning more about biscuit thank you for joining us Harriet thank you for having me yes and we are so excited to
5:06
talk all things about biscuits um and kind of what led you onto that Journey
5:11
so I guess I don't know where you really want to start unless you want to go right back to the beginning and your
5:16
love for baking maybe yeah I mean actually that is the story but we I'm assuming um I think people do assume
5:23
that um it wasn't really like that um I had a sort of FY uh I suppose conventional uh career before I ever got
5:31
to biscuits I spent 5 years in book publishing and then I moved on to uh
5:36
working in brand PR uh I ran the consumer Tech division um in fact during
5:42
the doom boom for a big PR Company which um I think was relevant because I think it really sort of exposed me to a very
5:49
kind of entrepreneurial culture which is what it was like then um and then after
5:56
I had my fourth baby I decided to take a bit bit of time out I was helping my
6:01
husband who has um a cing events company and it the idea came out of that really
6:07
so I was had a bit more time on my hands and I suddenly started thinking about
6:13
gifting um and I was particularly thinking about food gifting and what a big space it was in the market and how
6:20
it wasn't being really well served by I guess the sort of existing players at the time and there was just it was just
6:26
an opportunity um and we started to think about what sort of um a product might
6:33
serve uh you know the market we were looking for something that would be uh
6:39
really easy to personalize we knew there was a really big corporate Market as well so we wanted something that we could um we could create sort of
6:46
basically a branded product um and at the time it was very big in cupcakes but there was nothing kind of like this and
6:52
actually it was a it was a trip to the states um and to New York specifically
6:57
and we went to a bakery in New York and we saw some ice cookies and we thought
7:03
it was kind of our light bul moment and we thought oh my God that's incredible um they are essentially biscuits are a
7:09
blank canvas um they can be anything you want them to be so that thing about creating a kind of more sophisticated
7:15
more personalized product that could be um designed for all sorts of occasion I
7:20
mean I sometimes say that we are really running a design business I mean the kind of the look and the presentation of
7:26
what we do is a very big part of it and have you always liked baking though was it kind of a hard I'm not the cook in my
7:32
family right okay I I come from a family of chefs so my my husband obviously Cooks cuz he uh ran the coaching
7:38
business which now my daughter runs so she's now an entrepreneur um and my uh
7:45
son is a chef so there is a lot of cooking in our family and I've always there's not a lot of room in the kitchen
7:50
M basically so you guys are always like fighting for who who's going to make dinner or is it the opposite where it's
7:56
like it's your turn no yeah I cooked yesterday so you have to cook today well they like to plan food that's
8:02
it's I mean it's a really big subject I've basically taken over um
8:07
where there is baking actually that is the area that I recently decided is my space because they don't do that so much gu you have to isn't it what was it like
8:14
transitioning from you know PR agency to the world of like food and baking and
8:20
cooking like how was that transition last and book publishing as well cuz am man and I both studied publishing as well so yeah we have a range of things
8:27
to discuss with you about well I I mean I love publishing and for years I ran the women's prize for fiction until two
8:34
years ago actually um so it's been a big part of my life even while I've been uh
8:40
running biscuits what was it like um I I sort of sometimes feel I just
8:46
fell into it I don't think there was this kind of culture of entrepreneurialism that I think that slightly is now so I did fall into it um
8:54
I've really enjo well two things I would say one is that that my sort of training
8:59
in marketing and brand has been the single most useful thing that I have brought to the experience I am a massive
9:07
believer that the world is full of great ideas that don't ever see the light of day and that most about starting a
9:14
business is about execution um and and that and often what happens is people have great ideas and
9:19
great product and they focus so much on the product that they forget about the marketing you know and the and the sort
9:25
of saddest thing is you know a great product that never Finds Its Market m um so I think that's really informed the
9:32
way that I've run the business the way that I look at the business the way I I believe that everything is a marketing
9:37
opportunity whether it's you know the most conventional idea whether you're hiring people or you're raising money or
9:43
your everything can be framed in in that way and you have to work really hard if
9:48
you're you know particularly I mean my business is not all consumer but it but it was for a while if you're running a
9:54
consumer business and you have to attract that many customers to your website on a daily basis you know you
10:00
your marketing it better be your DNA what would you say is kind of the key to finding the right Market cuz you know
10:07
you mentioned that you have great businesses and never find the the right Market how can they you know accomplish
10:13
this well I mean when you say the right Market I mean I would I mean I actually
10:18
meant you know find a market I mean I think you need to understand your Market quite early early on I mean I that bit
10:25
and I think that also came down to the fact that I'm was trained in marketing is that bit I found relatively easy is
10:31
to understand and think from the perspective of the customer always think from the perspective of the customer um
10:37
and it's quite interesting how difficult people find that you know that when you're looking at things always thinking about how it how it looks from kind of
10:44
the other side um you know we are all only as good as you know our last order
10:49
um and I just think it's you know you have to be so customer Centric in
10:54
everything you do particular if you want to run a consumer business and it's become a very complicated landscape I
11:00
mean when I uh started there was no social media so in fact we launched uh
11:07
biscuits using conventional PR and I still think that PR and now social media
11:13
is the the best way to start you know it's the best um you know returnal
11:19
investment you can get you know what you don't want to do is jump straight into kind of pay channels and paid marketing
11:24
M but you know we now find you know the amount of content that we have to kind
11:29
of produce just to manage our own social channels and that you know there what are there five six that we're running at any one time um as well as all of our
11:37
PID channels as well as running websites and you know it's a it's a very complicated thing I think now and how
11:44
was that I mean from starting with a consumer focused business and then transitioning into more B2B I mean why
11:50
did you kind of see that that was an necess necessity um because I'm assuming
11:57
it did well enough to be a consumer brand for so so long but I guess where was that transition the concept of the business
12:04
when we started was a DTC brand and I think that was also probably um the kind
12:09
of fashionable way to look at things in those days um you know it was part of the you know it was early on in the
12:14
excitement that ecommer was everything really because it cut a lot of the costs out of business you know um you could
12:20
build I mean that's still true it's like you you can build businesses quite quickly and kind of create awareness we
12:25
always did B2B and initially the way we thought about it and doing corporate so I think what really built our brand
12:32
funny enough and that's how we looked at it originally was that we were adopted very early on by sort of fashion
12:38
particularly because some of our earliest biscuits were collections of sort of fashion Handbags and you know if
12:44
you're if you're selling biscuits to people like sort of Burberry and mury and an your hin March you obviously it's
12:49
incredibly helpful for a tiny brand because it it you know sets a a platform so it really helped us to build our
12:56
brand as the years went on it became obvious that it was actually a really important also um uh Revenue stream for
13:03
the business what actually happened um is oh and then the other thing was that we
13:08
were approached by selfes to go in there and you're like you don't say no to selfes when you're right you know so
13:14
you're like obviously we're going to do that but we still weren't really focused on wholesale as a channel um anyway time
13:21
moved on um obviously uh I'm as I'm sure you would expect in covid our business
13:27
our online business grew massively um and I think that post that
13:33
there was sort of Correction in the market that came I mean we were quite lucky we we retained most of the customers that we did get in Co but it
13:41
became clear that the market was going to be was much much trickier for online consumer businesses post that so we
13:48
basically pivoted the focus of our business and started looking into B2B channels for growth um and that's really
13:55
helped because I think if you're M genuinely multi- Channel um as we are when one you know if one channel is not
14:01
working as well as you want you've got other channels that you can focus on so we now have well I guess we are cover
14:08
the whole range really because we we we sell wholesale uh into retailers uh we
14:13
sell direct to corporates uh we obviously have a DTC brand and we have two icing cafes so we have a high Street
14:20
retail model of our own as well what do you find it like easier to to deal with the d2c the B2B like what part of the
14:27
business I ca what what part do you find like the easiest to work with with in terms of clients and customers Etc uh
14:35
well I suppose the the I mean the most challenging is the i in cafes unquestionably I mean High Street retail
14:43
is not for the faint-hearted in my experience and it took us uh quite a long time to work out how to how to make
14:49
the model and was a new model nobody done an icing Cafe before right so we were just working it out um and we knew
14:57
that it needed to be well partly because we'd also never had a sort of biscuit Boutique before so when we decided to
15:03
open our our shop which was in Notting Hill we were genuinely worried about how
15:08
we were going to pay the rent and rates and like what we're going to sell enough biscuits because it was such a new thing
15:13
and actually it was that it was that challenge that um and it was inspired by POI cafes actually thinking that if we
15:19
can create an experiential side to this you know that basically diversify it
15:24
that's basically another Revenue stream that we can make it work and it sort of developed from there so we have a we
15:30
call it the school of icing so we have a you can go there and you can do DIY icing um but also we teach icing we
15:37
teach adults we teach children we do corporate events we do so and we now have a second a much larger um one in
15:44
Belgravia and they are both in my mind marketing hubs really important
15:50
marketing hubs for the business really important ways you know places where we can kind of engage with our
15:55
customers um but but also now we've created a model which actually also you
16:01
know works as well um and it's a sort of brand experience a brand immersion experience so I guess we were kind of
16:07
exper you know taking the experiential route before a lot of people did as a sort of you know kind of needs must kind
16:13
of thing in terms of other channels I mean they're just different I mean uh
16:19
say which one's easier I suppose in a way selling B2B channels is is probably the most straightforward and the most um
16:27
you know dtoc as to my earlier comments you have to work hard uh at DTC um to make it work
16:36
and to keep your brand you know absolutely kind of front and center of people's minds you know well speaking of
16:41
challenges before we started this podcast we were talking about the cookies vers biscuits um and for the the
16:48
the listeners or viewers that don't know Manuel and I are American so we were talking about the difference between calling biscuits in the UK cookies in
16:55
the US and vice versa you mentioned that you were launching in the like in the US so I guess do you want to go into that
17:01
challenge of of branding and and going between the biscuits and the cookies he
17:07
biscuits I I don't think like you know yeah we think gravy scones I think is
17:14
kind of the yeah I mean I I I have to say I didn't think about this challenge obviously back in you know whenever we
17:20
launched the business um and it's only recently um become something that we've really had to to consider because as you
17:28
say we are well I mean we have an we have a Us website um and we are actually this
17:34
Autumn launching in three big uh us retailers from the point of view of the
17:39
website um and the point of view of kind of being disco you know discoverable digitally we have had to adopt the
17:45
cookies because I mean basically if if you didn't have cookies in your metadata no one would ever find you but actually
17:51
if you when you're actually on the website we do actually explain the difference between a twice baked English
17:57
biscuit and and a cookie because there are some differences um it's not perfect
18:03
if I'm honest but on the other hand we are very much presenting ourselves in the US as a very kind of British brand
18:11
so the decision we've taken is we kind of lean into that and so while there is a sort of level of explanation sometimes
18:17
required around that a a British biscuit is probably closest to an American sugar
18:23
cookie um which is you know but honestly it's just one of those things if you could look in you know into the future
18:30
um it just didn't wouldn't ever have occurred to us when we named it bcers that this would ever be a challenge and
18:37
other than you know the words biscuit and cookies being you know meaning meaning completely different things in
18:42
the states what are the other kind of challenging aspects that you faced in the American Market compared to like the
18:50
UK Market because it's much bigger isn't it oh oh yeah little bit slightly we
18:56
actually have been um effectively expor in in the sense that we fulfill from our UK website all over the world and and
19:02
always have done so we've known for a long time that the US is our biggest export Market we meet a lot of us
19:09
tourists in our icing cafes in London so you know we're sort of aware that that it would have some traction there we are
19:17
a small business so we can't actually afford you know to go in there in a kind
19:22
of big way so what we decided to do is we have gone the B2B route and we are
19:28
basically uh testing the market um by demonstrating through you know the kind
19:33
of wholesale contracts that we're doing that there is a kind of demand for it so our website which is US focus is really
19:39
organic it it picks up kind of organic um and what I hope is that as we get a
19:45
bit more brand awareness there that that will build as well what was the market
19:50
like you know 15 years ago in terms of um entrepreneurship was it more
19:56
favorable to entrepreneur and startups and Founders compared to now or would you say now is more favorable like you
20:03
know getting Investments and Seed rounds how was it like then compared to now
20:08
like what are the struggles that you were facing your time compared to maybe the struggles that um entrepreneurs are probably facing
20:15
now I think it's important to say that I think the approach has changed um so uh
20:21
it didn't I mean there is a lot that you know you would learn looking back but when I started my business it didn't
20:28
really occur to me for quite a while that we were going to seek external investment if you talk to young
20:34
entrepreneurs now there's an automatic assumption that everybody's going to go rounds through rounds of series a series
20:40
B you know it's almost their the kind of default and I think that the reason it
20:46
didn't UT to me is because um we had run business I mean my husband run a business for years so in a sense what
20:52
might call an oldfashioned kind of business which is you know needs to make money and make profit and pay its way
20:58
and that is really how we ran biscuits um that it was our money uh it
21:03
had to be profitable so it always was because that was the only way it was going to survive what became clear and
21:11
and I think in hindsight if I sort of realized um belatedly is we are a manufacturing business um so one of you
21:20
know the aspects of what we do is it's it's actually almost impossible for us to kind of Outsource what we do because
21:25
we've had to solve a very complicated Manufacturing problem which is how to handise 3 million biscuits a year we've
21:32
built our own manufacturing models we built our own Factory and we've had to really solve quite a lot of those
21:40
problems and ultimately that meant that we need did need investment because it was that was a big deal to to build a
21:46
factory um but it wasn't but in a way that wasn't so obvious at the beginning because we kind of grew the business
21:52
organically um I had young children and I suppose we weren't trying to grow it that fast it was growing but it was and
21:59
then at some point everything changed and we were like okay now we're ready now we're ready to go now we can see
22:05
that we've got a really good model here and now we really want to grow this business and to see how far we can take it and then 219 we launched into the
22:12
factory that we built which is in Wimbledon um and what we've done is we've we've built capacity now a lot of
22:19
capacity to sort of double the size of the business in that site and so that's what we're really focused on trying to
22:26
do so that's a very long way round of answering a question actually which is say do I think things have changed I think attitudes to how you start
22:32
businesses have changed dramatically um I'm not particularly making a judgment about better but I think people approach
22:38
it differently is it easier to get investment now compared to well I think there's a lot of evidence that is
22:44
extremely hard for women to get investment I mean they're not just you know it's absolutely disgraceful the amount of investing money that is going
22:51
to women um 2% 2% yeah I mean it's it's baffling actually and it's falling um
22:57
yeah I me I I mean I'm part called by women built which you know very much exists to well apart from it's apart
23:05
from getting people to support women's only business to a kite Market it's also about to some extent drawing attention
23:11
to the fact that women aren't getting investment I think the other thing that I would say and I actually you say that
23:17
this like a mindset issue in terms of like investing in women and female le start could be something to do with the
23:22
fact that the investment Community is largely led by men um you know so it's
23:28
sort of and a lot of women start businesses that often are quite female focused yeah that's what I've heard as
23:33
well is that it's almost like it's a mindset issue because to like the economy is already struggling and so to
23:39
convince a a male investor let's say about a startup tech company about menopause they don't get the they don't
23:46
understand the business so they don't understand it enough to want to give their money to the business is what I've heard so it's just a weird I think maybe
23:52
that's going off what you mean by mindset I think there's I mean I think that can be a part of it um there is I
23:58
mean there is another thing that I wish I had known um which which I think is a really good thing but um we didn't
24:04
benefit from it which is e investment so e you're only eligible for Eis
24:10
investment if you're I think seven years and under um and it's it's like it's
24:16
created a kind of investment Cliff basically so Angel investment is all focused to Eis companies so if you're
24:24
older than seven years it's like you know the whole aspect of that kind of investment is not available to you and I
24:31
personally feel that um it needs completely restructuring so that all businesses regardless of time scale get
24:38
one shot at Eis because I think it also disadvantages women um because I'm not
24:44
the only woman I know who started a business fairly slowly because they had young children then at the point at
24:51
which they got ready to scale it was like oh you missed that and I mean I
24:57
have to be fair I didn't even know about it so I often say to people now I said do not miss that deadline because you
25:03
know if you want to raise investment it will be incredibly hard for you to do so once that's passed and I think I think
25:09
it's one of those things which a really good scheme which is really important by the way to stimulating investment has
25:15
unintended consequences in the way that it's structured and how would you how
25:21
would you like you know consider going about like know the restructuring of um
25:27
how female Le businesses is you know get investment you know who can we like who has that kind of power or authority like
25:33
who who needs to kind of take that step to to make that change because it is like like you mentioned it is abysmal
25:38
less than like 2% on declining is is is terrible so like what would you say or do you know to kind of change that
25:45
mindset that that the industry has right now in investing in women well I think that there are funds that are are being
25:53
launched which are entirely focused I mean I think to some extent you have to take a sort of certain level of sort of
25:58
you know positive investment in and and in women to change that
26:04
because at the moment so I think those funds that are focused particularly on supporting women that's really important
26:11
or you know people really need to look at quas in that sense or Banks need to look at how they you know banks are very
26:18
keen to talk about how they support women which is great but mostly that requires practical action rather than
26:25
statement of of intent and support you know I mean most things are about practically setting aside money to
26:31
support women yeah I think the whole um there's a lot of initiatives around getting more women to back more women
26:38
because women women are doing I think women are doing that and I think I mean one one of the things I really do think
26:44
has changed is that uh women's networks have become uh much more
26:49
effective um and powerful and I think that women are supporting women and I
26:54
think uh I can think of a number of successful female Entre R preneurs who are going out of their way to support
27:00
other women as well um so probably in
27:05
practice that's the that's the most effective way but I but I do think that some of the kind of Institutions that
27:10
talk about sporting women could put more kind of practical measures behind that good intention I mean it's been a
27:17
conversation for so long um and very little movement if not backwards movement in terms of the number of
27:23
funding um it's quite interesting because our event our next event that we're having with Founders is about
27:28
investing in women would love to give you an invite um that's coming up soon y that is coming up soon subtle plug
27:34
subtle plug even though this epis will probably come out after it but uh that's keeping the date away from it um but you
27:40
mentioned at the early bit of your career you know before that seven-year Mark you said you missed it you know you started slow you had children I guess
27:47
what were those early days like I mean were you experimenting with recipes because I mean we're quite interested in
27:52
the whole quality control of you know now you have a factory how does every cookie I mean now that I think about it from a consum perspective you go to a
27:59
bakery it's like every cookie tastes just as good so it's like how do you have that quality control did you come up with a recipe at the start what was
28:06
that you know build like the early days were just I mean looking back on it it
28:11
seems extraordinary that we did this and I guess that's the sort of optimism of uh Youth and you know lack of experience
28:18
I mean to be fair um my because my husband had a company we had access to
28:24
uh commercial kitchens and so we were able to test the recipes um and it
28:30
wasn't just it is the recipes for the biscuits but it's also creating a biscuit that is uh kind of robust enough
28:36
to to sort of carry the icing and then to work out how to do the icing as well and we used to um we basically we were
28:43
right next door to um in fact a city and guilds art school and we used to employ
28:49
artists to work for us um to ice the biscuits so we found that people who had those kind of skills I guess it's you
28:55
know it's a it is basically art it's just that what you're using is you're using icing bags not if paint brushes or you
29:03
know I mean it is the it really is the same thing um and so we created these
29:09
kind of first uh designs uh we knew that it was going to be very occasion Le so the designs were you know new babies and
29:16
birthdays and weddings and that kind of thing as well as these kind of fashion Collections and then I literally sent
29:21
out a press release um because that's what I did I run a PR Company so that's the obvious thing to do um and it was
29:28
amazing actually we just I think because we were first to Market it was the first time anybody had thought of gifting ice
29:35
biscuits in this kind of way we just got a lot of coverage a lot of traction and therefore a lot of orders very quickly
29:41
which then actually um made it clear that we hadn't quite worked out how to deliver the biscuits and for them to
29:48
arrive you know in the condition that they were when we sent them out that so and at that point I have to say there
29:53
was a kind of slight heart stopping moment because like oh my you know if we can't deliver the biscuits and to arrive
29:59
perfectly we haven't got a business here yeah and we resolved that um by working
30:04
out that we could use the icing to stick the biscuits basically down in the turn
30:11
H like at the bottom yeah and that was that was probably you know that it was a big moment because doesn't matter how
30:16
great your tin is if it's got to survive You Know rawal M or equivalent um it has
30:22
to LIT you've got to literally be be able to assume that you can throw it from one side of the room to the other and it will still be okay um and so that
30:29
was what happened and then it it sort of within 3 months we'd moved out of um
30:35
lettuce which is the my husband's company out of their kitchens um into our own that we'd rent we'd sort of
30:41
rented down the road so we had our own Bakery and then another Point weirdly we reversed back into the lettuce kitchens
30:47
and then we took on we just basically kept on taking on more and more bits of space so it became quite chaotic at its
30:53
worst moment before we moved to Wimbledon we were operating out of four different
30:58
locations which is obviously very inefficient uh you'll never get good productivity uh running business like
31:05
that so it was a kind of a moment where we go we just literally don't think we could get through another Christmas unless we can get everybody into one
31:12
place so uh the ministry of biscuits in Wimbledon which is where we are now is
31:18
not only all the manufactur I mean all the manufacturing staff you know the the grand icing Hall is there but also all
31:23
of the office staff are there as well mhm and are you good at icing or or have you had to keep the artist on to do the
31:30
actual icing I keep thinking I lived with a baker my roommate my old roommate was a baker which is why I know about
31:35
the icing on the bottom to keep things from moving um but I can't think about all or I keep thinking about all of
31:40
those years that we would make our gingerbread houses and he would just blow it out of the park and mine would just look horrendous so I don't know I
31:46
mean I think it's a skill in of itself too so it's a I mean it's a real skill I mean I you know we have obviously a wide
31:53
kind of variety of people but there we still over index on people with probably artistic training um and I think they're
32:01
all artists you know it's it's a it's a particular so I absolutely don't include myself in that in fact I should enroll
32:08
myself immediately into school of icing iing yeah the icing CA to improve that situation it's funny you mentioned
32:14
gingerbread houses actually because they are have remained consistently we have a very kind of beautiful doy yourself
32:20
gingerbread house at Christmas and um it's consistently one of our bestsellers absolutely love them might have to get
32:26
one and try again this year so so what is it like I guess preparing for all of these different seasons every year I
32:32
mean I think it's one when I speak with seasonal startups you know Christmas Focus businesses you know Christmas ends
32:38
and they're like finally it's over but actually you used to have to start planning right away start again start so
32:45
you have like Easter Valentine Halloween Christmas are those like the big Cash
32:51
Money times for you guys how do you organize all the yeah that's really interesting well in terms of the designs and the planning we we're sort of uh I
32:59
mean we're signing off designs nine months ahead so we we design seasonally so I'm kind of I've passed Mother's Day
33:06
am I now yeah I feel like the calendar head I think I'm on to Father's Day I
33:11
was like again now anyway so that you know that's how far we have to work and obviously Christmas is the biggest time
33:17
of the you know the big and so we that's the hardest as well is that the hardest like most stressful time um period for
33:23
you guys I think it's stressful I think it would be odd if it wasn't stressful for any body working in a retail
33:29
business because so much of your business is dependent on the success of a relatively you know two months of the
33:35
year so it to that extent you're planning for it all year um I think that
33:42
uh you know one of one of the odd things about businesses that have some seasonality built into them is that it
33:49
gets worse the bigger you get because um if you've got a kind of massive you know
33:54
Peak at Christmas then the Peaks get peier you know basic is what happened and that that creates loads of challenges including you know managing
34:01
your own cash flow because in our case you know we're obviously producing U
34:06
what we're going to sell before we've before we've before Christmas and before we've got the money in we're having to
34:12
pay the people to make it so we have to manage our cash flow around that too which is all sort of I think that the
34:19
the particular challenge of our business actually is that it's and the thing that I'm actually most proud of and I think
34:24
people don't necessarily see from the outside is that we've built a manufacturing business and and built one
34:31
in London and building manufacturing businesses these days is really really hard and it's the thing that by far the
34:38
hardest thing that we've done and and I guess especially at an international scale as well I mean fortunately most
34:45
holidays are the same worldwide but then you get into the little differences I guess like the US has a different
34:51
Father's Day yeah that's annoing the US has a different Mother's Day I don't know why that's a thing but it is it's
34:57
always been I like four Father Day year to manufacture for all these different you know like I guess markets and then
35:03
also with different changing yeah I mean we do we cover I mean not only you know we've mentioned Easter and I mean we
35:10
also me now Dali you know we do Dali and we do you know Chinese New Year so we
35:15
cover pretty much everything well Seas locations but the other the big I
35:20
suppose the thing that underpins our businesses all year around occasions so our bread and butter is you know
35:27
birthdays new babies and you know and those kind of Life occasions or at the
35:32
moment because everybody's got flu you know get well no really literally season
35:37
changes season changes season changes everybody everybody gets on well and then you see
35:43
the literally first aid kids that we sell you know sales cop like that really you can you can measure the season what
35:49
is your most popular product then like based on each season are they different
35:54
well the Jed house I guess Christmas I'm sure they had that one well and the way we do we have a sort of Nutcracker
35:59
collection which is probably our bestselling Christmas collection which we've done for years um all year round
36:06
uh occasions I mean in the end birthdays are probably the biggest we I tell you one we have we do quite a few licensed
36:13
products um as well one of which is um Mr Men and Little Miss hug is very
36:19
popular so I can send you hug in the post anytime so that kind of just because gifting is something that I mean
36:26
it was obviously massive in um lockdown um but actually to be fair it's pretty strong all the time is is really
36:32
kind of people wanting to give sort of relatively so that's just one biscuit in a box we could our letter boxes
36:39
collections um and obviously that kind of just because gifting is a really important part of it too and the boo
36:44
baskets that we were talking about earlier I guess it's really important to keep up on TR what that is today and now I want one
36:53
it's that thing about you know you just can't be complacent you know you have to keep kind of looking ahead and trying to
37:00
predict what people will want and what they'll you know and boo baskets I mean
37:05
I have to say that I didn't know about Boo baskets till about three weeks ago and then I started reading about them
37:11
I'm like okay be you know boo baskets for Halloween is a thing so we've obviously got got to go in there well
37:18
and you mentioned you know at the start there wasn't a lot of type of icing biscuits in this in this space and you
37:23
kind of were one of the first what is the competition like now I mean I'm assuming there's there's more than there
37:29
was and and how do you stay ahead of it as one of those well there wasn't anybody to start with that was really nice while no worries yeah that's not a
37:37
problem um I think that um then what happened obviously is you know we were around and we had a successful business
37:43
so inevitably there are other people in the market and actually I've really come
37:48
to understand that that's really important because we wanted we we wanted to we didn't want to be like a niche we
37:54
wanted to create a new sector in the gifting world so if you when we launch we launch
38:01
with why send flowers when you can send biscuit to to really help people to understand that that's how we thought of
38:07
our you know how we thought of our product what we expected you to do with it it was a kind of education
38:15
piece flowers can have biscuits um and anyway the point being that so the
38:20
ambition of the business was was to create a new sector um in in the kind of gifting space and more person
38:27
personalized um proposition really because the nature of what we sell is that apart I mean it can be actually
38:33
personalized in icing but and that's a big part of our business about 25% but
38:38
more importantly every time you go onto a website and you choose a design you're making a a personalized Choice according
38:44
to you know who you're and and I think that's our kind of superpower that we you know if you're some had a baby we're
38:50
sending new baby biscuits you know um if we're somebody's not feeling well we're selling a first aid kit it's it's that
38:56
very kind of specific or they like skiing and we're sending them an APR ski collection um and I think that you know
39:04
what we tried to do now is say well yes there we have lots of um other people come into the space and that means
39:10
that's a sector that everybody understood you know it's kind of it's kind of worked people will now consider
39:15
uh sending biscuits like they might consider sending flowers or chocolates or any other kind of version of it and
39:21
we've just I just think it means that we've just got to continue to work on being the best and you know the kind of leader in our space
39:28
why do you think nobody thought of it though before you did I mean was it I guess you said it was a bit difficult
39:34
but you know I feel like it's I think I think the answer is that it wasn't that people weren't icing biscuits because
39:39
that clearly they were and hence why we saw them it was because at that time the
39:44
e-commerce space was really new right so I know it seems like it's been around
39:49
but you know at that time launching e-commerce Brands was was a much more
39:55
kind of new thing to do and and what we saw was that you could create a gifting service so in a way you can only do a
40:02
service online because that's how it works you know isn't it great you can go on it takes you three minutes and you can send a gift to somebody um so I
40:10
think it's it was about adapting a known product to a new use does that make sense you yeah merging it we talk about
40:17
that quite often calls it idea sex yeah one idea
40:22
and another he really wanted to coin that being honest um I think he said a few times into the microphone but um
40:29
yeah there's one idea and another idea and kind of making a new put all finding a kind of almost a new
40:35
application for something um you know that's the trick isn't it I keep people keep telling me that but I mean it
40:41
really it really was a lot less sophisticated uh when we launched the 2007 in terms Comm space that it is now
40:47
yeah and what would you say like the difference between like you know cooking SL baking for like your family and then
40:53
doing it for work you know like what's the difference like is yeah I mean we were talking about this earlier in terms of your family cooking but surely you
41:00
don't like baking that much if you all you do is work with baking or maybe Vice ver to be honest it's like making a job
41:06
or getting a job in something you love people tell you not to do it because it ruins what you love but I don't know I haven't really found that yet like yeah
41:12
I wonder if like football players can actually like play football for fun I'm sure I mean I'm sure they do I would be
41:18
yeah but I would weird analogy that's not a good one all right I mean I would be cut this out yeah I'd be being
41:24
dishonest there if I left you the impression that I am in a bakery all day I I am working above one my office
41:31
smells incredible you know they cook the brownies and the macarons right underneath me no way I'm sure it's just
41:36
incred you know makes you feel happy you know you know um but actually you know I'm not I'm not you know working in the
41:42
kind of main prod in the main production space I mean I'm a mo I'm a mocker really than a brown person that's what I
41:49
brought to the party okay I was going to ask you like who's the better Baker you your husband like your your son who's
41:55
the better chef but now son is a train Chef oh okay so so here so I think on balance I woulde baking I feel is so
42:02
much different than cooking because with cooking you can just throw things in and you know try it experiment but like with
42:08
baking it has to be quite articulate so much baking powder so much baking soda otherwise it's going to go flat or all
42:15
the all the professional chefs just heard you say that and lost their mind Gordon Ry listen to this podcast like
42:21
you should just say you can just throw things in if he's listening to the podcast and BR I'm actually very excited about that it's very precise obviously
42:28
the recipes are you know but yeah with baking I feel like it is genuinely chemistry like it has to be the right
42:34
amount it doesn't we and what what we're doing as well is we're cooking as you would cook at home you know we're cooking with high quality local
42:41
ingredients scale it up quite a lot but you know fundamentally that's what we're doing we're doing a kind of like a
42:47
homecooked biscuit um and then so it has L of two stages but then the big part is
42:52
when it goes into the icing Hall you know when it goes into the icing Hall that's where I would say know a lot of the magic happens you know I think is a
42:59
very difficult thing to do well and you know biscuit starts its Journey here and a few hours later it ends up at the
43:04
other end and it's it's kind of beautiful thing you know it's like the Willy Wonka Factory it is like it really
43:10
honestly it really is a bit like the Willy Wonka Factory you guys have like Oompa Loompa is working it's like a river of icing
43:17
coming down that you're constantly smelling in your office I mean you mentioned quality but you know I'm sure
43:22
eventually you you're speaking about you know scaling to the US and you know all all over the world and which other
43:28
country would you like to scale to and how do you plan on maintaining quality
43:34
control in a sort of how do we I mean it's funny it's not that's oddly not an
43:39
area we have a massive problem with because we've been working on that problem I guess for such a long time
43:45
that and as I said we've we've built our own kind of manufacturing model I mean the guys work with screens um and things
43:51
you know so it's they're not just sort of sitting there and kind of you know it's it's it's pretty precise
43:57
in the way that you would imagine that a manufacturing model would be organized um in terms of uh scale yes you know we
44:06
do we obviously try and put things in which help us to automate as much as possible what we're doing but in the end
44:13
the it is a hand iced biscuit I mean and that's not changing we can we can use tools that help us to do it faster and
44:19
more efficiently and you know but it is still a hand IED and I think that's part
44:24
of what we're selling actually what we believe um is that people um in in
44:30
today's world really value something that has that kind of care exactly in it
44:36
I mean you know the biscuits are not cheap they're priced actually a bit like flowers you know that that sort of uh
44:41
price point and the reason for it is because you our customers really understand what they're buying and they
44:47
understand that you know it's been handmade for them with a lot of with a lot of love and care you know and if if
44:52
that's what you want then you know if it was just a biscuit that came out of a machine it wouldn't really have quite
44:58
the same you know with it being you know handmade in Britain for example and then shipping it to the US I mean is there
45:05
any difficulties with shipping it and customs and and having a baked good kind of going across the board well there's a
45:11
lot of rate yes I mean I could imagine I mean being from America my friends have tried to ship me like goods and it just
45:17
does not go well but obviously I'm not a business so I'm not I mean obviously as a business we have to kind of you know solve that problem we have to be kind of
45:23
FDA regulated as well we have to use um ingredients that are acceptable all over
45:28
the world which can be really complicated and all I can retail you is that it's easier to ship into the US
45:35
than it is into Europe that's that's that makes sense us my boxes are from the US to I mean
45:41
stepping into Europe post brexit has been an absolute nighta um particular
45:47
anybody who's in the food world will tell you yeah we've heard I've heard that quite often about like I mean post
45:52
brexit just been harder as a UK business to especially in retail especially especially food food and drink and
45:59
because um it turns out that when you're going into Europe even though they're all part of the EU you every country is
46:05
regulated differently do you find when it comes to scaling then it might be easier someday to have manufacturing
46:12
yeah in different countries or would that kind of take away from the whole British no no I no I don't think that's at all I I think that it's just a
46:18
question of you know kind of life stage of the business and kind of where you get to um uh at the moment we have quite
46:25
a lot of Headroom and capacity in in the UK and the one thing we can do putting aside regulation is we can ship fast I
46:32
mean what that's become we can get to um something to the states in a couple of days so it's it's not a problem for us
46:39
to fulfill there are some cost barriers obviously if you were a customer in the US it would be good if I get it to you a
46:45
bit cheaper if we really wanted to and that's probably the main reason why you would start to distribute uh in the US
46:51
because of the cost of uh delivery is prob is a limitation um but for the moment you
46:57
know what we're trying to do is to kind of prove a model and we I also feel that that would be a kind of next stage for
47:03
the business to say this is a a country in which we want to you know whether that was to have something in Europe or
47:08
have something in the US what country do you see yourself opening you know um another store sooner rather than later I
47:16
mean I think probably at the moment the US is the most obvious one even if we tried um I mean the the really great
47:23
thing about Bisk is that we're such a highly differenti iated business model I
47:28
mean I think that's probably our greatest strength there is nobody doing what we're doing quite the way that
47:33
we're doing anywhere else so it you know I believe that you could do it in many
47:39
I'm a f I know this because we have so many International customers and customers who come to visit us in our
47:44
shops how interested people are in what we do um so that's the kind of big
47:50
opportunity I guess and you know speaking of opportunities and scaling um
47:55
what was it like when you made your first Mill we read the Artic or
48:01
pound I am what was it like I mean I I think that it's interesting isn't it because
48:08
um you know we're still a small business but we're a bit bigger P that we were I
48:13
actually found it um easy I often say to people in starting their businesses you should really enjoy you know the first
48:20
bit the first five million because actually that's kind of for me when I looked back on it that was kind of really the fun bit
48:27
well not not I mean growing the business in the early stages the
48:34
responsibilities just get bigger yeah is has been my experience so um I actually
48:39
think that uh you know as it get I mean it's partly because of the nature of the business that we uh we run you know we
48:46
we have to employ a disproportionate number of people compared to other businesses might be the same size
48:51
because we're a manufacturing business and how big how large is like your staff
48:56
uh I'm trying to think right now because I mean it's up to about 200 okay a peak times it's probably about 100 I mean it
49:03
does change quite a lot but about 180 or something now but I mean it's a lot of people and you know and that's and that
49:10
does bring a lot of responsibility with it as well um you know but it's also
49:16
it's also kind of what's quite cool about it you know so it's kind of like depends slightly on your why does it change so much is
49:21
ite okay although we're trying very hard to kind of cut that aspect of it out of the the business which were succeeding
49:28
so in the past we've had to take on significant number of additional staff
49:33
to get through Christmas but what we're doing now is we've found out worked out how to spread our manufacturing over a longer period so that we could have a
49:39
flatter manufacturing model and therefore we don't have to take on you know the peaky number of stuff and how
49:46
was biscuit when you first started just to touch on that a little bit more compared to like now cuz you just
49:52
mentioned that this you just you've taken on much you know more responsibility so how was it like back
49:58
then compared to now like walk us through that a little bit yeah and I guess did you always expect to scale it as big as it is now or were you just
50:05
really trying to make some cookies in a market that didn't exist biscuits I'm so
50:10
sorry I'm going to keep calling them cookies on accident she's like for American audience okay so so if you kind
50:16
of going back to what I did before I did this you know I was a consumer brand director for a PR Company so I
50:24
absolutely was not in the interested in sort of having I think what's sometimes called a kitchen table business that
50:30
wasn't what I wanted to do I wanted actually what I wanted to do is create a brand I wanted to create an e-commerce
50:35
brand uh because that because I had spent a good chunk of my life uh
50:41
advising and helping people to do exactly that and at some point you go oh I wonder if I could do that so so I and
50:48
I think this a really it's quite an interesting point because if you it's that thing about
50:54
knowing where you want to go when you start helps you to um make certain decisions
51:00
you know at at the beginning so I brought in a in fact they became um a kind of stakeholder in our business so I
51:06
brought in a branding agency at the point at which we lit it was literally a sort of um idea on the back of a
51:13
envelope and I did that partly because I knew that um I wanted the sort of brand
51:18
the kind of branding of the business on to be what it was going to be on day one
51:24
you know and to some extent although obviously brands do re evolve the essence of what we were was created on
51:30
day one and we've had okay five six different websites since then and you know all of those things but you know in
51:35
the end what we're doing now was as it was um at the beginning so I and I think
51:42
that I also knew I wanted to work with because that was sort of my background too I I wanted to bring in you know
51:47
really good people to kind of work with with us as well just to make sure that we got those things right and would you
51:54
say that would be your advice to someone starting is focused on the brand at the start first or I guess because that that
52:02
does seem like a really core aspect like figure out where you want to get to and make
52:08
decisions I think if you know what your ambition is it does help you to make it helps to inform the important decisions
52:14
that you could have got to make along the way um do I think well in consumer businesses I think yes I think brands
52:21
are the differentiator aren't they yeah so yes I think that you really do need to think about your brand and what you
52:27
stand for I mean it's un it was quite unusual and that when we when mentioned that we were you know first to Market
52:33
that's quite an unusual situation normally what you're doing is you're going into a market with a clear range
52:38
of competitors so your brand is your differentiator um so I think that's a
52:45
really important thing to be and I mean I also think that you know people come in to start businesses with different skill sets they're not necessarily all
52:51
going to come in with with a marketing background um but so my point really is
52:57
to bring the people in that you need to support you so that you know that you've got the things that you're good at and
53:03
that you need to bring other people in uh to help you and what what would you say is like your favorite thing of being
53:08
a founder or a biscuito or a marketer a lot of T
53:14
um I have found it uh intellectually challenging um and I enjoy that I enjoy
53:21
solving problems it's it's been an absolute kind of learning
53:26
because the market and indeed you know marketing and everything around it changes so dramatically I find it's
53:33
amazing that it's quite a privilege I think that kind of my stage in my career that I'm still on such a kind of big
53:39
learning curve I I also enjoy the fact that our business is really 360 so we
53:45
don't Outsource anything so uh you know we obviously design create manufacture
53:50
the products Market them sell them and we fulfill them so I've had to learn about things like fulf fillment in ways
53:57
that I'd never imagined that I would have to do before you know so it's that it's like a little mini kind of business
54:04
uh course for me really in terms of understanding all aspects of how businesses um are run and I enjoy that
54:10
side of it and what is you know what would be your advice to an an entrepreneur you know someone who's on
54:17
you starting their Journey they're about to start their company you know they're writing down the blueprints what would you be your advice to
54:25
them I I well when I let's assume because lots
54:30
of different kinds of businesses so you know but let's assume we're talking about a consumer business just for the pur direct to Consumer business which
54:37
was like what I was doing because I think that kind of varies funny enough I've I've sometimes say to people I'm I
54:43
mean I am a big believer I think I've made that clear in marketing and understanding your market and thinking about that before you ever launch a
54:50
business and I've sometimes found one of the most useful ways to do that is to try and write a press release if you if
54:56
you can write a press release about your business and what it stands for you're forcing yourself to confront how you're
55:01
going to have to communicate that to the outside world and what the USPS of your business are and and how you know it's a
55:08
kind of shorthand way of going have I what what are the elements do I understand my market and do I understand
55:14
what I'm selling I mean all entrepreneurs actually in just any kind of business we're just selling all the time you know that is the job really at
55:22
the end of running a business just to keep selling it you know do you say communication skills is probably the key
55:29
to to being a good entrepreneur well there are all kinds of entrepreneurs and and uh you know if you haven't got the I
55:35
mean as I say if you haven't got the good communication skills then you need to be work probably bringing somebody in who has I mean you do have to be
55:42
constantly yes be prepared to talk up your business you know it is I do
55:47
consider it to be part of the job um and
55:53
you know I mean I it's quite funny because I because I was in PR I spent
55:58
the first half of my career telling people how to do this not hoping I'd never have to do it
56:03
myself you are here I am you come an expert without realizing it I I think my
56:09
final question is be co-founder or no co-founder oh I think a co-founder is
56:14
great I mean I'm my husband's my co-founder and um well there are some
56:19
challenges unquestionably in working with your partner uh he brings a completely
56:25
different set of skills to me he's very much responsible for the development of the manufacturing side of our business I
56:32
mean that is not my skill set I'm I'm the kind of sales and marketing product person um but in general terms I think
56:40
that being an entrepreneur is a lonely business and it carries a lot of uh
56:45
responsibility and challenges along the way so yeah absolutely I'm I think co-founder is a great idea and I guess
56:51
my final question would be what's next I mean it sounds like it's been quite a journey uphill um so I guess what does
56:58
the next five years look like and I guess leading up to Christmas Even I'm sure that's your focus in the time being
57:03
but I think I think what we're we're looking at is all kinds of opportunities within the business I mentioned that we
57:09
have really built we've really built the B2B side of our business up so we've got a much bigger wholesale business than we
57:15
used to that was we're nearly B2B we're nearly sorry 5050 um B2B
57:21
DTC um and we see a lot of opportunity in that side of the business um so what
57:27
we have really trying to do is to we're going we've got an absolutely great product but the way I look at it as as
57:34
I'm agnostic about channels and markets so the the way I look at it is to go you know how do we build new markets and new
57:41
channels and there's an element of product diversification that we look at too so we've we' we do make other things
57:46
you know we've got quite a big Market in kind of macarons we've just launched iced brownies which are quite cool which
57:52
are brownies with kind of iced designs on I mean essentially I need to try all this I'm getting I'm listening to all
58:00
this if if we can if we can decorate it and make it beautiful and put it in beautiful packaging and send it as a gift we think it's in our territory
58:06
really and do you have to I guess that is my question about the actual product is does it have to be a design that you guys already have or can you order any
58:12
design I mean given for like birthdays and and yeah no we do we do have a we have a bespoke service um in fact in our
58:19
Belgravia shop there is an icing Studio at the back where we do quite a lot of bespoke I mean they have to be at a
58:25
certain level of you know of scale but we do a lot of um bespoke cakes for
58:31
instance aneliz bespoke biscuits um sometimes for kind of very significant birthdays we'll do a kind of whole
58:37
collection of biscuits so yes there is a there is a my birthday's coming up so like brainstorming way I could get
58:43
something going but I'm definitely getting the what do you guys call it boo package boo boo basket boo basket yeah
58:50
I'm definitely getting the boo basket definitely uh but thank you so much for joining
58:56
yeah thank you yeah thank you great it's great having you enjoy talking
59:03
[Music]
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