Up next in 10
Dougie talks to Ava Cherry, legendary backing singer with David Bowie and later Luther Vandross. We talk Bowie, Luther and the struggles for new emerging talent versus AI.
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foreign
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[Music]
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hello honey how are you
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hello Charlie how's Chicago
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oh it's good I mean actually we've been
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having uh spring-like weather the last
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week so that makes me happy it's
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freezing here you would not believe when
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I moved to Spain in my first winter I
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thought that's gonna be all right it's
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Spain it never gets cold it does get
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cold there too yeah terrible
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jacket weather
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well actually jacket scarf Overcoat the
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whole thing well yeah you're gonna
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remember here the buildings aren't made
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for uh keeping heat in it kind of keeps
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keeping you out
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where do you live in Spain
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it's near Valencia okay so maybe that's
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cooler than Madrid right away guys I
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love Spain
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yeah so what you've been up to
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ah just everything and my record's doing
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real good around you know I love love
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love love love that song we've been
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playing it to death oh I'm so happy
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thank you so much thank you yeah uh
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that's happening and I've been getting
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the next song prepared so that'll be out
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in March
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oh we got an album on the horizon
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well I don't know I mean I'm sort of
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happy we're doing singles because I'm
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working with different people right I'm
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trying not to you know it's hard when
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you're dealing with people in an album
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situation sometimes singles are
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sometimes easier to do but who who knows
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I don't I can't tell you what's going to
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happen with that and you'll just you'll
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just keep continuing to get good music
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though I mean the single is great if the
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future stuff's anything go by is that
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right you're working with um the guys
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from cool million yes yes Rob hurts the
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Rob Parts produced and uh
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um David Tobin wrote the song Love It I
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was playing one a while ago by with
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James D train Williams oh yeah Jimmy you
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know Jimmy D train
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um yes I know we're looking forward to
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some more new stuff as well but back to
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the beginning how did it all start for
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you you've you've probably lost this a
2:32
million times but I have Doogie I have
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darling I have it as a million times but
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well you know um I think I started like
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a lot of people do when I was when I was
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a kid I I was admiring you know all the
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artists at the time Ariza and
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um Motown stuff and and all that and uh
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I I just I I used to there was there's a
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place here in in Chicago called the
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Regal Theater but it used to be the
3:01
Regal Theater and it was the most
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incredible place it was uh on on King
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Drive and it was every every other
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Sunday they had
3:12
a roster of like 15 artists who are the
3:16
top artists that that ever were you know
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James Brown Marvin Gaye reads Franklin
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Michael Jackson everybody was on the
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same bill in that one night and all of
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us kids after church on Sundays we go
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running down there so you could get like
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front row seats and everything you know
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and it was fantastic and I was just just
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sit there in my seat with my mouth open
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watching all the great perform it was
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amazing what I've noticed is that jazz
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is coming up even more Jazz has always
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been fantastic Jazz has always been
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great but it's it's remained the same
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over years because my dad was a jazz
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musician but now it seems like r b pop
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artists are incorporating Jazz into
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their songs now and jet and it's and
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it's really opening up it's really good
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because I mean on this with the sacks I
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mean I got so many jazz people now that
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love me because of the saxophone
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is another one that you've probably been
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asked probably more than a million times
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what was it like working with Bowie
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of course you would ask that because
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you've been Brit mate yeah well I I I
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queued up to see him when I was 12 years
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old queued up all night to get a ticket
4:30
wow okay my mum and dad my mum and dad
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queued with us overnight they took turns
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it's great
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that's funny well
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it was an experience like no I'll do my
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friend I'm as you can probably imagine
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I when I got with him I was only like
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just getting ready to make 18 years old
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and I was like
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totally in awe of this man I mean when I
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met him he wasn't really big yet in
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America he wasn't he was just taking off
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started to really get big in in in
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Europe and then his first tour was when
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I met him here in America in New York
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and he was playing Radio City and uh and
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I'd listened to his album about two
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months before he arrived my man my
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manager said listen to this new guy from
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England he's going to be big I think I
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mean he's absolutely right and I
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listened to it and we had moonage day
5:28
dream on it and stuff like that and I
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was like oh my God I love this music I
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love I love talking about star man and
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all that and then and then of course I
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just fell in love with the record and
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fell in love with him and then two
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months later a Stevie Wonder party that
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I helped to put on he was there and
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that's when we met where did he go from
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there what happened after that because
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you were on Young Americans right yes
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yes I mean mean after that we
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um we were still in Europe and we were
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there for a while doing things different
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shows Hammer Smith you know 1984 show
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those kind of things and he was also you
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know trying to groom me for something
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the astronauts it was uh he'd formed a
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group called Ava cherry and the
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astronauts and did some production on on
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that and then then he decided that he
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wanted to be a soul man so he started
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listening to Aretha and Marvin Gaye and
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Michael Jackson The Isley Brothers on
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and he was like well Ava where do we go
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what do we do I want to put a Soul band
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together
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and I said we got to go to New York I
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said because if we go to the Apollo
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we'll see some of the best acts and some
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of the best bands so that's exactly what
6:39
we did and uh and then on to Sigma sound
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went to Sigma sounds onto Sigma sound
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and then that's where we were introduced
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to Luther Vandross
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Carl Stoudemire brought him to the
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studio
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yeah I don't remember the story about
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um what was it um Luther vandross's
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Funky Music getting changed to
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um well yeah that was the nation I mean
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I have to say David it was called Funky
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Music to begin with it was the wrote
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and then David changed it's a
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Fascination and then there was a dispute
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about the publishing in Luther one
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Luther one though cool excellent awesome
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I know I wish he was still with us
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Luther I wish he was to uh
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what would he be doing now do you think
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what would Luther be doing now
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oh man he'd be on tour right now we'd be
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on tour or something he he'd be you know
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giving us some more beautiful tones of
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his voice and
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I mean Luther would be
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um just just creating like he always did
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and and just giving us what we're all
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missing so much with Luther Vandross
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which was that beautiful tone and and
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and and making us feel love you know I
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remember seeing your name on the sleeve
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notes of give me the reason and I
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spotted the Bowie Luther connection then
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you taught extensively with Luther I did
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like I did like five four or five tours
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with loser I saw you at Wembley Arena
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back in 87 what a show he couldn't have
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picked a better back line me and Lucy
8:18
Fisher and Kevin Owens on the stage do
8:20
you know that was two and a half hours
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of Goosebumps
8:23
I know listen I'm going to tell you
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something live at Wembley was one of our
8:28
most incredible shows a sign of the
8:31
obvious vocal talents you're an actor
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too oh yeah I'm I'm an actor as well I
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mean I do you know a voice over and you
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know on camera things yeah I mean
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actually I'm I'm hoping and praying with
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Smurfette we're getting ready to work on
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a film
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um he's probably like in um April
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something like that and I'm I'm very
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much looking forward to it cool
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excellent keep us posted on that of
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course I will of course I will
8:58
and um your genres go from sort of
9:02
started out disco Skylee with with um it
9:06
was um Robert stigwood's uh label wasn't
9:08
it RSO all right so yeah well it was I
9:12
was actually on Capital signed by Bobby
9:14
Columbia who was with Blood Sweat and
9:16
Tears he was the head of enr at Capital
9:18
at the time and then I and but I was
9:21
signed really to Curtis Mayfield's label
9:23
which was curtain Curtis produced a song
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uh on my first album called love is good
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news and you never loved me
9:31
so
9:33
um but anyway somehow it ended up being
9:35
tied up with capital and RSO I don't I
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don't know how that all happened but it
9:40
did and
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um you know it was it was a good record
9:45
streetcar streetcar but and it was a
9:48
record ahead of its time when you know
9:51
because I mean you know I I really
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believe and I and I mean this in all
9:54
humility that I was always a little bit
9:57
ahead of myself where people were like
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what what do we put what genre do we put
10:01
this artist in and they were always
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asking that question I mean there were
10:05
times when the streetcar record came out
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that they were asking so we're saying
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things like you know she reminds me of
10:12
Donna Summers and then his little Grace
10:15
Jones and then there's a little this
10:17
person ever so I was just a mixed bag at
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the time and I mean I would leave but
10:24
they saw all these different artists
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within me I guess so
10:29
um you know that was uh my my situation
10:33
with um
10:35
Streetcar Named Desire was was was good
10:38
but they just you know of course record
10:41
companies mess up things and
10:44
I mean they spent so much money on
10:46
recording the record and so much money
10:48
on this that and the other but not on
10:51
what a lot of record companies don't do
10:53
is spend the money on promotion that's
10:55
where you need money and I I didn't
10:57
realize it for many years after that
10:59
well you know like you spent 300 000 on
11:02
a record and then you don't you spend
11:04
the same amount promoting it well
11:07
talking of a mixed bag I was listening
11:09
to a quite a mixed bag this morning
11:11
while I was uh well I was jumping about
11:13
in the shower to I am a laser
11:17
from back in the day and that album
11:20
actually it was funny listening to that
11:22
album I could really hear the Bowie
11:24
influence there well yeah he produced it
11:26
yeah and um Ainsley Dunbar as well well
11:30
Easley oh yeah all the great musicians
11:32
that played with us
11:34
um David has the most wonderful
11:36
musicians but that was a that was a
11:39
great record but the point was is that
11:41
it was only a demo it was not a finished
11:43
product we had just begun it and then
11:47
all of a sudden sort of some weird stuff
11:49
started to happen with David's
11:51
management and him feeling that his
11:53
money was being stolen and then we had
11:55
to stop the project right and then David
11:59
said well I said well what are we going
12:00
to do was the Masters and he goes oh
12:02
don't worry I'm going to put him
12:03
somewhere safe where my manager won't
12:06
get to them but of course he did and
12:08
then he released unfinished
12:11
uh demos of that album right
12:15
it's funny because after that because
12:17
that was kind of like almost almost
12:19
psychedelic Rock almost but it it then
12:22
went to the album
12:25
um picture me which I was also listening
12:27
to this morning what a great album yeah
12:29
oh yeah I love Victor me you like a
12:31
picture
12:32
did you enjoy that it was it was
12:34
typically what was it 1987 wasn't it yes
12:37
yeah and it's got that
12:39
almost Electro Boogie whole thing about
12:43
it which
12:45
lovely satisfied and and yeah and stuff
12:50
like that and yeah there were a lot of I
12:53
really loved that record so much it's
12:55
one of my favorite recordings of myself
12:58
of all of your albums do you have a
13:01
favorite
13:02
or is it like having children you're not
13:04
allowed to have a favorite they're all
13:05
they're all good no I I know I just told
13:07
you that was my favorite album ah that
13:10
was the one I thought it might be
13:12
somehow I thought it might be yeah that
13:14
was my favorite album uh because it was
13:17
just so um
13:18
I I don't know it just was you know I
13:21
mean my I I did love what I did with um
13:24
Curtis Mayfield but that but picture me
13:27
was my favorite
13:29
so over the years the industry has
13:32
changed almost
13:35
unrecognizable these days so what what
13:37
do you make of all the changes over the
13:39
years
13:40
some of it I don't like
13:43
because uh there's so many I mean there
13:47
used to be a time you would watch the
13:48
Grammys the American Music Awards
13:51
and I I have the utmost respect people
13:54
for everyone out there who makes it and
13:57
whatever but some of the music when I
14:00
see these award shows and things I don't
14:01
even know who the artists are until the
14:03
award still comes on and I find people
14:06
on the internet going who was that who
14:08
was that where'd that song come from the
14:10
the industry seems to make the music
14:13
make the music successful that they want
14:15
a lot not everybody like the American
14:18
Music Awards I think is your is the the
14:20
in is more your peers but the Grammys
14:23
are I mean the Grammys are your peers
14:25
the American Music Awards are like your
14:27
the the actual audiences that buy your
14:29
records and stuff
14:31
um but I I you know I I I'm hopeful I I
14:36
still love RMB I still love rock you
14:39
know I still you know uh I still look I
14:42
love hip-hop
14:43
what do you reckon of the biggest
14:45
challenges for new artists now
14:50
well there's a lot of challenges for
14:53
them if we for you new artists out there
14:55
and one of them is is getting a record
14:57
deal I mean there's so many ways that
14:59
you can do it on your own independently
15:01
you know which is is good because you
15:03
can keep your money when you make it
15:06
um but it's it's it's difficult because
15:08
you still need people sometimes labels
15:12
if you if you're brand new you might
15:13
need a label unless you've got a really
15:16
hit record to to push you out there and
15:19
the good thing about being on a label
15:21
especially if it's a small label is that
15:23
and if they do the right thing is if
15:25
they promote you if they you know
15:27
promote you the radio if they if they do
15:29
the different things for you but I think
15:31
that you know you have to have I don't
15:35
care what you do you have to have people
15:36
helping you but um there's just a lot a
15:40
lot more challenges in in the old days
15:42
they would groom you people would sign
15:44
you to a label whatever and they would
15:46
groom you but now people aren't even
15:48
groomed anymore you know use this they
15:50
just put your record out there and it's
15:52
not even you know I I don't know I have
15:55
a lot of mixed feelings I I'm hoping and
15:58
praying that we go into a new era with
16:00
music and that it is more it is
16:03
respected in the way that I remember it
16:05
when I was starting out in the business
16:08
have you got a tick tock account
16:11
they keep trying to get me to get one
16:14
I got one but I rarely use it I can't be
16:17
bothered no I don't really have a tick
16:19
tock account but I do look at it and and
16:21
some of it's interesting I mean some
16:24
records have become some tunes have
16:26
become massive hits on the back of it I
16:28
know I noticed that I noticed that so
16:30
and so believe me I won't ignore it
16:33
totally for that reason after that yeah
16:36
it's I guess it's the future uh speaking
16:39
future for speaking of this yeah now
16:42
what about AI making music and writing
16:45
songs for people oh I love that I'm I'm
16:48
well I'm a songwriter I mean like the
16:52
next thing that I release in March is
16:55
going to become so delicious
16:58
it's I rode and and co-produced myself
17:01
and and after that I'm good at
17:04
everything after that is going to be
17:05
again because this is really the song
17:07
that you have now Love Shine so bright
17:09
is really the first song I have not had
17:11
writing on in a long time
17:14
but that's that's that's come from you
17:16
from the heart
17:17
um you know so your stuff that you do
17:19
now but when I when I say AI artificial
17:22
intelligence is now making music for
17:26
people and uh well it's going that way
17:29
and writing songs for people so surely
17:32
and Mary spender I don't know if you
17:34
know her on YouTube She searched great
17:36
musician and um she
17:39
um mentioned I saw something today she
17:42
said well it's fine but
17:45
there's going to be a lot of legal
17:47
issues if you release a song that's been
17:49
written by AI who owns the copyright is
17:52
it the software company or is it the
17:55
person that generated it in the first
17:57
place it's gonna get crazy really is
17:59
yeah see that's that whole thing it's
18:01
really like she said is it gets sticky
18:04
so you have to be very very careful when
18:07
you do something and then you know you
18:09
contributed but they take the credit so
18:11
we're always dealing with that as as
18:14
artists are always dealing with that
18:15
issue so you have to be very careful and
18:18
have some real legal advice on that I
18:21
think there's uh they certainly as far
18:22
as that's concerned I think there's
18:24
going to be a lot of uh interesting
18:26
legal battles and maybe one or two
18:29
equally interesting loopholes as well oh
18:32
yes of course I I just that's what I
18:34
just said you you've got to make sure
18:35
you have an attorney that knows
18:37
entertainment law so that you can you
18:40
don't get messed up because you can
18:42
really get messed up here and have
18:44
written or co-written beautiful songs
18:47
and then never get credit or never get
18:49
paid believe me we can be so careful
18:52
guys make sure you have an entertainment
18:55
law attorney when you're doing deals
18:59
otherwise
19:01
let's get on to music audio quality
19:05
what do you think of this stuff I mean I
19:08
feel sorry for the kids today that that
19:10
are being brought up on YouTube and and
19:13
Spotify because that's not full
19:15
frequency recording it's compressed so
19:20
much that they're not getting the full
19:22
experience that we would have got oh
19:24
Monty I mean I I agree with you I think
19:27
some of it sounds so generic and
19:30
um
19:31
tinny and prepared to you know the way
19:35
that we that we did music from from back
19:39
then you know and you know people like
19:41
um that I still admire that tries to
19:44
keep it there I mean even though he's an
19:46
old school artist too sting yeah because
19:48
he's not old school but middle
19:52
um I was listening to a recording that
19:54
he did um that um how fragile we are he
19:58
he was on stage and Stevie Wonder came
20:00
up and sang it with him I remember oh my
20:03
God
20:07
sting was looking at him like did you
20:09
write this song and did I write this
20:11
song because it sounds like you wrote it
20:13
I mean just songs like that songs like
20:18
that beautiful beautiful yeah speaking
20:22
of um audio and format
20:24
are you a new school girl do you go I
20:28
mean are you talking are we talking um
20:30
streaming here or are you are you still
20:33
vinyl CD
20:35
what what are you listening well I'm
20:37
sort of in I'm sort of in the middle
20:39
streaming because that's what's supposed
20:41
to happen
20:42
that they're saying that's what's
20:44
supposed to happen anyway I'm I'm I'm
20:46
I'm still kind of a CD girl and I Still
20:49
Love CDs and and things like that but of
20:53
course in this age that we're in if
20:55
you're an old school artist you have to
20:57
get you have to reinvent yourself so if
21:00
they're telling you streaming is the it
21:03
it you you must be streaming too then
21:05
you must be because you have to you have
21:07
to otherwise the only reason that you
21:10
might have to conform there is that you
21:11
may not get your record played so you
21:13
know you gotta you gotta go wherever you
21:15
can to get that record played that's
21:18
what it is totally agree totally agree
21:20
but um I'm I'm lucky enough I've still
21:23
got done you can probably see them down
21:25
there that's just a bit of my vinyl
21:27
there from back in the day
21:29
I have a lot of vinyl too I have a whole
21:32
um okay never get rid of your vinyl I'm
21:35
not no I have all my old records Cherry
21:39
Cherry vinyl and all that stuff really
21:41
and
21:43
um that that was just something I love
21:45
to watch DJ spin on vinyl I love that I
21:49
love it so much that's how I started it
21:51
was always vinyl when I started it
21:53
wasn't even 12 inches there was only
21:56
seven inches when I started
21:58
wow yes yes that's old yeah
22:02
but also the good thing about having CDs
22:06
is they're smaller and you can keep them
22:09
I've got about two trunk loads in the
22:11
other room in the spare room and
22:14
um I'll always keep them because
22:16
the thing is with streaming services I
22:19
don't know if you you know about this
22:21
that you know you might go to listen to
22:23
something one week following week it's
22:25
disappeared for whatever reason it could
22:28
be right legal publishing reason
22:30
whatever or the artist saying no I'm
22:33
pulling that whatever but it doesn't
22:35
help the consumer you know the uh
22:38
exactly so always keep your CDs because
22:42
you know if you want to hear it if it's
22:44
not where you normally stream it yeah oh
22:47
no I have it's in the box I have
22:48
listened I have so many CDs that I can't
22:51
even find places to put them in my house
22:56
so I love CDs and and I've also gone
22:59
back to writing where I did a song that
23:03
wasn't released and I did it on CD and
23:06
then I was able to go back to it on the
23:08
CD yeah there you go yeah always a good
23:11
reason to and not only that it's full
23:13
quality it's it's like you know there's
23:16
no compression it's just as it would as
23:19
it should be so that's good you've been
23:23
doing this for ages music
23:25
how do you stay motivated
23:27
well
23:30
I I don't I don't know I mean because
23:33
with covet happened it kind of it could
23:36
have put cold water and everybody being
23:37
out being able to perform and everything
23:39
but I I just love music so much and I
23:43
know that that that they're doing music
23:45
and being creative a creative musician
23:49
is is the way to stay happy I mean
23:51
without music I would die I just would
23:53
die I just would lay down and die if I
23:55
couldn't do it and so I just I actually
23:58
did more writing while I well cope it
24:01
happened it kind of helped me to to just
24:03
you know have the time on my hands to be
24:05
able to do that and and also
24:08
um my fans that loved me they just keep
24:11
saying give us more give us more give us
24:13
more so I just want to keep giving them
24:15
more and I feel as though my calling
24:18
right now is to give people happiness
24:21
and through the music as I always did
24:24
anyway a long Maya continue please thank
24:28
you darling thank you so much yeah
24:32
oh yeah yeah so delicious you make sure
24:37
we get a copy of bay radio of course you
24:39
will we'll have that on straight away
24:41
straight away all right
24:43
thank you so much thank you Spain I love
24:46
Spain I wish I could be in Spain right
24:48
now
24:49
drinking certain sangria huh one more
24:53
tiny thing here that I've always wanted
24:55
to ask you if you could go back in time
24:58
what advice would you give to your
25:01
younger self
25:03
if I could go back in time I would say
25:09
that
25:10
have that I would have been more
25:12
conscious of the business end of this of
25:15
this of this music business I would have
25:18
been more conscious because I wasn't I
25:20
was so just wanting to do it and so just
25:22
wanting to be creative that I didn't
25:24
take care of the business and sometimes
25:27
I lost because I didn't do that so if I
25:30
could go back in time I would definitely
25:32
that's why I'm telling you all do it get
25:35
make sure your business is together even
25:37
though you're creative you've got to do
25:39
business as well and also I would say
25:43
you know when I was with David you know
25:46
sometimes I would want to work with
25:47
other artists other producers and he was
25:49
like no no
25:51
and and and I didn't insist and I wish I
25:54
had insisted right ah so listen kids you
25:58
kids out there in YouTube land listen
26:01
yeah Eva Cherry said it like it is
26:04
take care of the business end yourself
26:06
or apparently be aware of it they are be
26:09
aware of it yes and then you'll be cool
26:11
you have your creative and you have your
26:14
money
26:15
love you all thank you just a quick
26:19
mention for your book yes it came out
26:22
last year
26:23
yes are there Glitters please get my
26:26
book it's on Amazon it it just it just
26:29
what it does it documents me from when I
26:31
started out in this business and and
26:33
when I was how close I am to my family
26:36
and how much I love my mama and how much
26:39
I she encouraged me so much she's such a
26:42
focal point in this book and then it
26:44
just takes you on a journey with me
26:46
until now so please All That Glitters
26:49
available now from Amazon they off good
26:52
voice over there for you
26:55
thank you avo's been so lovely talking
26:58
to you thanks so much for joining us and
27:00
uh give my love to Chicago I will may I
27:04
will I will son
27:08
all right my darling hopefully at some
27:11
point we could do this again and have a
27:12
catch up we will I'll give you I'll keep
27:14
you posted on everything just sending
27:16
love and peace to everybody God bless
27:19
you God bless you darling
27:22
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