Up next in 10
Ryan Carr is a former student and great friend who has an amazing podcast! Please go follow Ryan over at https://www.youtube.com/@SheetMetalShaping
On Episode 31 of the "Sheet Metal Shaping Podcast" we have Wray Schelin from Pro Shaper Workshop in Charlton, MA
In this episode we chat all about prestigious cars of the past, economics of how those cars are valued/ why that's important, and what he's doing with AI to create beautiful cars of the future.
We also discuss:
- History of how he got started + grandfathers influence
- Identifying opportunity/ Progressing from boat to car restoration
- Auburns, Dusenbergs, and many other prestigious restorations
- Economics of car restoration
- Working in 2 car garage for many years
- Moving the “maglio” hammer into his basement for noise control
- Making Jaguar parts sold via mail order
- Moving to a 3000sf mid size shop in Connecticut
- Upgrading to 20,000sf shop in Charlton, MA
- Hiring and firing employees in his business
- Being a shop manager vs being a business owner
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0:00
thanks for tuning in to the sheet metal
0:01
shaping podcast where we discuss the
0:02
pursuit of sheet metal shaping education
0:04
through traditional coach building
0:06
techniques my guest today on the show
0:07
all the way from Charlton Massachusetts
0:09
the one and only Mr Ray shelene how are
0:11
you hey Ryan good to see you again
0:14
you're you're a regular in my shop let
0:16
people know that you've been at my shop
0:19
probably about six times or so so I have
0:21
I have longtime Mentor longtime friend
0:24
very cool very good to see you on the
0:26
show I'm excited for this so um I
0:30
thought that uh you know there's a lot
0:32
of people uh have have figured out who I
0:36
am for my YouTube videos and also for my
0:39
classes but in my when when I had my
0:42
classes I I actually stopped my classes
0:45
after 18 years in December I had a
0:48
three-day class originally that I I
0:50
morphed it into a 4-day class and um I
0:54
just felt that it was very disruptive
0:56
for my shop and um you know when I was
1:00
teaching a class I I gave people a
1:01
little bit of background but not a full
1:03
background so I this is an opportunity
1:06
for me to to to give a little history of
1:10
where I came from and why I'm so
1:12
interested in what I
1:14
do yeah so it it all starts with um my
1:20
my grandfather who is not my blood
1:23
grandfather but my step-grandfather my
1:26
grandmother's uh first husband my true
1:28
grandfather died in
1:31
1926 and if he hadn't died you and I
1:33
would not be talking he that totally
1:35
changed my entire life and uh was set my
1:39
trajectory anyways because um my
1:43
grandfather the step-grandfather became
1:46
my father's
1:47
stepfather and um my my my grandmother
1:51
was a a widow for I think about 12 years
1:55
so my father grew up a lot without a
1:58
father and um my grandfather came into
2:02
the picture he was from Maine he came
2:04
down to Massachusetts wer Massachusetts
2:06
to get a job he somehow I don't know all
2:09
the history but he met my grandmother
2:11
and my grandmother was a real gregarious
2:13
person and uh my grandfather my
2:17
step-grandfather not so much but he had
2:19
a good mind for business and timing and
2:23
um he decided he was going to be an
2:26
entrepreneur and his first Venture was
2:28
he the TV were coming on strong this is
2:31
like 1948 or so and he he bought a whole
2:35
bunch of TVs and was going to retail
2:37
them and make his profit and go on from
2:39
there well I think that whole Venture
2:41
only lasted like a month and then he
2:44
says no that that's not going to work
2:45
there's just too much
2:47
competition so he rented a building uh
2:50
down by the lake wish the mass is uh
2:53
boarded by this lake lake
2:56
quinaman and um it it it's the uh
3:00
demarcation zone between the next next
3:02
town which would be Shrewsbury the line
3:05
goes right through the middle of the
3:06
lake so Shrewsbury and and Wier are
3:10
divided by Lake when seum and a Seven
3:12
Mile Long Lake on one side anyways so my
3:15
grandfather rented a a building and
3:18
started a little boat business and it
3:20
was really small he had little rowboats
3:22
and canoes and and uh it probably at
3:25
that time all you had to do this is
3:27
we're talking like 4950 or something
3:30
like that he probably had to make a
3:31
phone call and uh was able to get a
3:34
Johnson output motor dealership and at
3:37
that time they only had maybe three or
3:39
four models of of Motors not really high
3:42
horsepower all small small horsepower
3:45
and then he rented a spot right on the
3:47
lake and he did repairs and and so he
3:50
had the the sales place which my
3:52
grandmother ran and he did the sales and
3:55
when I was a little kid I remember going
3:57
over to the sales place with my
3:59
grandmother and I'd spend the time there
4:01
was somewhere along the line in like 49
4:04
or 50 I don't know how he did it but he
4:07
bought like about five to eight acres of
4:10
land or so right on the lake and talk
4:13
about luck and timing it was perfect
4:16
timing and it was like the best spot on
4:19
the entire Lake I mean you just can't
4:20
believe it it was all cover the lake was
4:22
covered with Cottages right the Heyday
4:25
of the lake uh was probably like 1880 to
4:30
1910 a lot of the big companies in Wier
4:34
would have clubs and their employees
4:36
would come down to the lake on the
4:38
weekends and stuff and it was trolley
4:40
cars that would bring you down to the
4:42
lake and then they built um what's call
4:45
an amusement park called White City
4:47
which they had all over the country and
4:50
that was a result of the Chicago World's
4:52
Fair in like 1898 they had a white City
4:55
so this is a great amusement park it was
4:57
right down the street so they had
5:00
fireworks over the lake on Fourth of
5:02
July and uh all the all the you know
5:05
roller coaster and they had a big swing
5:07
out over the water was amazing so my
5:10
grandfather got this boat business going
5:14
and I don't know where the money came
5:15
from to tell you the truth because he he
5:17
didn't have any money I have no idea so
5:20
no that was never discussed but he built
5:22
a beautiful house was probably one of
5:24
the nicest houses a modern style house
5:27
at that time in Shrewsbury on the lake
5:29
in in a commanding position you could
5:32
see like a mile down each way left or
5:35
right and he sold a small lot to my
5:38
father right next door and my father
5:40
built a standard three-bedroom uh Ranch
5:43
was probably like a th000 square feet or
5:45
something my grandfather was probably I
5:48
maybe 1,500 square feet with that time
5:51
was a big house and and the the property
5:54
was a disaster when he bought it it was
5:57
all kind of these little Hills with
5:59
cottage is all dotted out and just so
6:01
happens across the street was a sand and
6:04
gravel yard and they had all the
6:06
equipment and I think made a deal with
6:08
them where they came over and scooped it
6:10
all out sculpted the whole place
6:12
perfectly and they got they got all the
6:14
gravel and sand and everything and my
6:17
grandfather built a beautiful uh
6:20
facility uh for boat showroom at his
6:23
house and I'm growing up as a kid right
6:26
next door literally 40 ft away from my
6:28
grandmother's house
6:30
and I live in my grandmother's house
6:31
right next door I just walk next door
6:34
and um so I was and my father was
6:37
working for my grandfather at that time
6:40
they bought boats and all usually in the
6:43
Detroit area and and Wisconsin my father
6:46
would drive a trailer out there and
6:48
stuff so uh all this is relevant because
6:53
I was soaking this all in I thought this
6:55
is how everybody in the world lived you
6:57
had the successful business and you had
6:58
your house right there and you know to
7:01
me it was amazing you know and U we were
7:04
dirt poor my grandfather was not
7:06
necessarily dirt poor he had he drove a
7:08
Cadillac he went to Florida on vacations
7:11
every year and um he became a criss
7:15
craft dealer he had Johnson outwood
7:17
Motors and the business was the timing
7:20
was just so perfect because all the
7:22
people buying the boats had all gone
7:24
through World War II and prior to that
7:26
they had gone through the depression so
7:29
when the early 50s came along and they
7:32
had employment and they had jobs that
7:34
were paying more they want to have fun
7:37
and they went came down to my
7:38
grandfather's and my grandfather didn't
7:39
have to sell the boats the boats sold
7:41
themselves and and we had like 52 dock
7:44
slips there so it was a social event too
7:47
every weekend it was like literally 50
7:50
there's maybe sometimes a hundred people
7:52
there with their boats and their
7:54
families and they'd come down and they'd
7:56
go out for the whole day with the boat
7:58
and everything it it was just an amazing
8:01
time so about 1956 this is where the
8:04
cars come into the picture my
8:06
grandfather had this idea of uh buying a
8:11
boattail car and using that as an
8:14
advertising tool for his business so
8:17
what better to God buy than auin
8:20
Speedster well he looked around and I
8:22
think it was local he found somebody
8:24
that had three Auburn at this time
8:26
they're only 20 years old so um little
8:30
maybe a little more than 22 years old so
8:32
he got a 34 auin cabet which is
8:35
unbelievably nice car a 35 auin
8:39
Speedster and a 35 auin faton all three
8:43
cars 900 bucks yeah and and the the the
8:47
34 cabet was a running and driving car
8:51
yeah so uh he flipped the Cabret to one
8:54
of his boat customers at the time it
8:56
just uh he just finished U law school
9:00
and he had a little Century in board
9:03
that he was docking there and my
9:05
grandfather turned him on to vintage
9:07
cars and he became a lifelong vintage
9:09
car guy and he just died at like 96
9:12
years old two years ago and he had you
9:14
named the car he had it so my
9:16
grandfather really set the hook in good
9:18
on the vintage car stuff so my
9:20
grandfather um the skill set of
9:22
restoring a car is pretty close to
9:25
restoring a boat all the boats were
9:27
mahogany that time you had to rebuild
9:28
the m you had to refinish the mahogany
9:31
uh you had to reupholster them so all
9:34
those skill sets were already there and
9:37
my grandfather operated his business
9:38
mostly with part-time help and he would
9:41
employ and he never did much he was just
9:44
a businessman he was pretty much hands
9:46
off I probably didn't see him work
9:48
himself physically working more than 20
9:51
hours and and the whole time you know I
9:54
was in his presence you know but he he
9:57
would give people instructions and stuff
9:59
and was pretty simple work restoring a
10:01
car then was really simple when he
10:03
bought the Aubin I was 5 years old so I
10:06
remember the car and he always had it he
10:09
he sold that one and he bought another
10:11
one and restored that one and then he
10:13
had another one so he just loved Aubin
10:16
and when you see an Aubin Speedster they
10:18
only made like a 35 they only made like
10:20
a hundred of them so they were very rare
10:22
a lot of people never saw him so he had
10:25
no intent of going into the restoration
10:28
business or anything it just something
10:29
he had to do is restore this car and uh
10:33
there were pots Avail available because
10:36
the the the remains of the auin cord
10:38
dusenberg company had been bought up and
10:41
eventually went to Broken Arrow
10:43
Oklahoma um where this guy Glen prey uh
10:48
bought all the the the pots and stuff so
10:50
you could buy and just about any part he
10:52
had all these Barns and um you know he
10:56
if you needed a tail light or something
10:57
he had it so so it was and the the
11:01
Restorations they were just old cars and
11:03
they had been taken care of they might
11:05
have had a few dents in them and the
11:07
upholstery needed to be done over and it
11:08
was just so happened that my grandfather
11:10
had this upholstery guy who did the wood
11:13
the the boat of the upholstery so uh he
11:16
took over the upholstering uh aspect of
11:19
it so all new leather interior new
11:21
leather top and the paint we we were
11:24
spraying all kinds of stuff anyway so
11:26
that was no mystery there and restoring
11:30
the motor was no mystery it's a
11:31
supercharged straight 8 and it has a
11:34
dual ax dual ratio rear axle it's it's
11:38
really cool stuff and it's way Advanced
11:41
so the auin C dusenberg company was just
11:43
so great and um so my grandfather sold
11:47
the faton off sold the Cabret off and he
11:50
probably owned the Speedster for nothing
11:52
so he gets it done it probably took him
11:54
I don't know maybe a year or two and
11:56
then he joined all the clubs he joined
11:58
the Au and C dusenberg club and their
12:01
big meet is in September in Aubin
12:03
Indiana so him and my grandmother would
12:06
drive out there in the late 50s and um
12:10
show the car off and so he met a lot of
12:12
people and U then his boat customers saw
12:16
the car driving around the yard and
12:18
stuff and they drove really nice and
12:21
they sound nice they they just so
12:23
amazing it's like they came from out of
12:25
space or something it's the styling is
12:28
so great on them so so I was spoiled
12:30
right from you know the get-go that you
12:32
know I thought all cars are like this
12:34
but um uh so anyways next thing you know
12:38
we had a couple people asking him to
12:40
restore the car and he's already got
12:42
this flourishing boat
12:44
business and um some reason well the bo
12:47
the bat business was April to September
12:50
right and then in the winter you you
12:52
winterise Motors you you restore the or
12:56
or refinish mahogany boats you reholster
13:00
him and all that but he'd lay off a lot
13:03
of his part-time help and they had
13:05
Skeleton Crew and so a good way to keep
13:09
all of his staff keep going this was a
13:11
good way to keep all of his staff going
13:13
throughout the
13:14
winter he says J I don't know how it all
13:16
happened but he said I'm gonna I'm gonna
13:18
start a restoration business yeah so my
13:21
grandmother died in 1959 when I was
13:24
eight years old so my grandfather who's
13:27
my step-grandfather is not blood and
13:29
then he remarries like three months
13:32
later so my world was rocked at this
13:35
point because a new much younger woman
13:37
comes in she was like 20 years younger
13:39
than my grandmother he marries her and I
13:42
used to live in my grandmother
13:43
grandfather's house now I'm no longer
13:46
allowed over there she doesn't want me
13:48
over there really I mean I can go over
13:50
there but after a while I was a nuisance
13:52
and then there was a gate that I had to
13:55
go through and there was a lock on the
13:56
gate you know so U um but my grandfather
14:01
was the only grandfather I ever knew so
14:03
I treated him like my grandfather but
14:05
now my grandmother's out of the picture
14:07
it's not the same so um but I had full
14:11
access to everything you know and he he
14:14
didn't actually even call me grandson he
14:15
called me Rick you know so um I I was
14:19
always industrious and uh for money I
14:22
needed needed money so I had three paper
14:25
Roots When I was like 10 years old you
14:27
know and uh I always worked I never had
14:31
any aversion to work at all so now I got
14:33
an opportunity to work at my
14:35
grandfather's not when my grandmother
14:36
was alive I mean I worked with my
14:38
grandmother doing some tasks and stuff
14:41
but I never got paid for it but now I
14:43
got a situation where I can work for my
14:44
grandfather after school and and and uh
14:48
get paid for it so I got like 50 cents
14:51
an hour I was 12 years old I mean I
14:53
mowed the lawn I he had a big old um
14:58
six-wheel Drive Dodge uh Power Wagon
15:01
from World War II and we put a big boom
15:03
on it so you could lift Wes up and stuff
15:06
the docks and stuff to put the barrels
15:07
under them and and we pulled motors with
15:10
it and all kinds of stuff so I learned
15:12
how to drive that and I'd snowplow the
15:14
yard the yard was like I don't know
15:16
couple acres or something it was all
15:18
gravel and everything was great except
15:20
for the gravel yard you know so um
15:24
anyways uh the the the task that I'd be
15:29
uh assigned would be bo business which
15:33
was running simultaneously so like 12 13
15:37
14 years old I'm I'm outboard mechanic
15:40
yeah and so I learned mechanics by
15:43
fixing Johnson outboard motors you know
15:45
and it was pretty simple I mean change
15:46
Spock plugs change points and then one
15:50
day I'd be doing that and the next day
15:52
I'd be paint removing on a Rolls-Royce
15:54
or something wow my grandfather made
15:56
good decisions as to what ca he made a
15:59
mistakes that you couldn't bring in a
16:01
loow dollar car and restore it because
16:06
you couldn't give him a good restoration
16:07
he was charging $25 an hour at this time
16:10
we're talking the early 60s he
16:12
eventually went up to I think $35 an
16:15
hour and um so which is a fairly
16:17
significant jump like 10 10 bucks an
16:19
hour on 25 is what that 40% well that
16:22
that took like probably in the 70s that
16:24
that he went up to
16:26
35 and and there was high inflation and
16:29
70s too in the early 74 five the
16:33
inflation was really bad yeah so um
16:38
anyways uh so I never knew what I was
16:40
doing I always had asked for the
16:42
assignment and uh he would he would give
16:44
me the assignment and and and I did all
16:46
the grunt work on the Restorations I
16:48
would be doing paint removing sand
16:51
blasting and then later I got to
16:54
dismantling and then I convinced him
16:56
because I watched the other guys we had
16:57
a couple painters and I I watched those
17:00
guys and said okay I can paint right so
17:04
I learned from those guys and I would
17:06
paint small pots like chassis pots and
17:08
brackets and stuff like that with a
17:10
spray gun and uh I got better and better
17:13
and I could disassemble and I kept track
17:15
of things and uh I could reassemble the
17:18
first car he gave me to actually do a
17:21
lot was when I was I think was about 16
17:23
years old and uh it was a Cunningham and
17:28
there's two cunninghams one Briggs
17:30
Cunningham was which is from he's from
17:32
Connecticut super wealthy guy that did
17:34
sailing and all that stuff and then he
17:36
had the cars down in uh West Palm Beach
17:39
Florida I think it was and race cars and
17:41
all that stuff but there was another
17:43
Cunningham company out of Buffalo New
17:45
York so they had a V8 motor and we got a
17:49
Cunningham Restoration in and um like it
17:53
wasn't a super valuable car but the guy
17:56
wanted it restored or something it was
17:58
an open Payton and uh my grandfather
18:01
signed me to job and it got painted a
18:04
white and black color was nothing really
18:06
to write home about and we didn't have
18:08
the motor he had somebody else do the
18:10
motor but I took that all apart I
18:12
cleaned it all up and repainted and
18:15
assembled most of it when I was like 16
18:17
but that was probably the first job that
18:19
I've ever ever did and uh my grandfather
18:23
saw that I could do this so I was doing
18:24
mechanics I was doing restoration all
18:27
the aspects of restoration painting or
18:30
whatever this is where this is where you
18:32
got your skills this was the very
18:33
beginning is what you're saying well
18:34
these are yeah these are the infancy of
18:36
the skills and then you what happened
18:38
was as my grandfather's building
18:40
business grew in like 1963 he landed
18:44
this local
18:45
multi-millionaire a guy that was born
18:47
with a S silver spoon and I don't think
18:49
he ever worked in his life his father
18:50
had built the business and um somewhere
18:54
along the line he decided he was going
18:56
to start a car collection so he bought
18:58
his property with a big barn and he
19:01
started buying cars and he found my
19:03
grandfather and the first thing he
19:05
wanted was a dusenberg a j dusenberg so
19:08
we hadn't had at dusenberg in in the
19:10
shop we had packets and stuff like that
19:12
and and that Cunningham well actually
19:15
the Cunningham came later but uh we had
19:17
some pretty significant cars but now we
19:19
got a A Jay dusenberg my grandfather
19:21
went out and bought it for him went to
19:24
an auction or something and bought it
19:25
and it was like 1963 and drags it back
19:29
well you know they only made uh a run of
19:32
500 dusenberg chassis yeah and that was
19:35
in like 1928 that they did it so the
19:39
dusenberg story is so amazing I mean it
19:41
should be a movie about it it's just
19:43
it's terrible that there isn't um and
19:46
and once you see a dusenberg your whole
19:48
life change you know so I mean it's so
19:51
incredible miss his a car designed in
19:54
1928 it's got a straight eight motor
19:57
with double overhead cams four valves
19:59
per cylinder some of them had
20:01
superchargers with a supercharger with
20:03
320
20:05
horsepower you know so it's just
20:07
absolutely a mindblower and you just see
20:09
the way the whole thing's put together
20:11
it's it's very very solid I mean
20:15
technically Advanced as far as the motor
20:17
goes the chassis it was just a big heavy
20:20
truck chassis I didn't personally have a
20:22
drive one but I think you know didn't
20:24
have power stering or in you had to be
20:26
moving to ster it and um
20:29
and they probably weren't the best cars
20:31
to drive like car today would outperform
20:33
it by miles but um it was just so
20:37
prestigious yeah and most of them were
20:39
all coachbuilt right and meaning um
20:44
bought commission yeah they sent the
20:46
chassis out the chassis would include
20:49
the fenders which were stamped um the
20:54
cowl um the the radiator shell
20:59
and the cowl would be just a firewall
21:01
not not the actual sheet metal so and
21:04
the cow the firewall was a a big giant
21:07
casting it was all polished towards the
21:09
engine it's just gorgeous stuff yeah and
21:12
this the story of it I don't know if
21:14
it's ever been told but you know the
21:17
dusenberg brothers Fred nogi was just an
21:19
amazing amazing story and it should be
21:21
told and I think it's great much better
21:24
story than Enzo Ferrari story or
21:26
something but it' probably never be told
21:28
you know know unfortunately maybe Nobody
21:30
Knows the intimate details but the
21:32
dusenberg brothers were failures as far
21:35
as business goes so uh C ended up buying
21:39
the dusenberg assets and they he brought
21:42
them in as employees and they designed
21:45
everything and it it was sort of like
21:48
they were following the dictate of of
21:51
cord um who who who wanted the most
21:56
prestigious car and he wanted it to be
21:57
an American and he had nobody the best
22:00
people to do it with Fred and Auggie
22:02
dusenberg yeah so uh they they basically
22:05
had a blank check probably to do stuff
22:07
but um cord was dictating how it was
22:11
going to happen so uh it's an amazing
22:14
thing if Fred had his way it would
22:16
probably would have been so much better
22:18
but that said I mean there's nothing
22:20
like it I mean at that time there was no
22:22
car made in the world as good as a
22:25
dusenberg I mean there's there's a of
22:27
franchis and hispanos swers and
22:29
rolls-royces that are in in the
22:32
neighborhood but they can't outperform
22:34
in dusenberg So what at what point in
22:37
your early stages did you realize you
22:40
know what coach building is more my
22:41
thing less or so on the mechanical side
22:44
point at that point I had no idea
22:46
absolutely no idea I was more entranced
22:50
with the the mechanical end of it and
22:52
stuff and um and and then uh what
22:55
happened was the one dusenberg begat
22:58
another dusenberg so next thing know we
22:59
always have like six duesenbergs in the
23:01
shop now we had a couple packets we had
23:03
a couple studes we had a couple Bentley
23:06
and rollers but it was always the
23:08
Topline cars that we were dealing with
23:11
and that's if you're going to be in
23:12
business you have to be dealing with the
23:14
better cars so that um you have
23:18
customers that can pay you it's that's
23:20
the whole deal you know and I was
23:22
totally oblivious to the economics of it
23:25
uh my grandfather was handling that you
23:27
know and actually one of the topics of
23:29
the the show today was the economics of
23:31
the co craft we'll swerve into it so so
23:35
anyways
23:37
um uh my grandfather hired a guy in and
23:42
well uh what happened was um my
23:46
grandfather made all these connections
23:48
with people in the in the the the the
23:50
dusenberg circles and the pack of
23:52
circles and everything and there was a
23:54
couple dealers at that time uh Leo Gart
23:58
from from Ohio he was like one of the
24:01
biggest guys out there buying and
24:03
selling cars and he had started in like
24:05
1950 buying and selling cars and then
24:08
another guy I don't know too much about
24:10
but his name was Tiny Gould he was a big
24:12
heavy guy hence tiny and uh they both
24:16
approached my grandfather and said look
24:18
I've got a dusenberg chassis can you
24:21
make a body so that was a pivotal moment
24:24
because there again is the motivation to
24:27
do something you have to do it on
24:29
somebody's nickel so these guys were
24:31
willing to pay my grandfather to get a
24:33
body made so um my grand at that time
24:39
late 60s early 70s you could hire
24:42
skilled help locally no problem you know
24:45
so the the bodies are ash wooden frame
24:49
uh bodies and we had one that was called
24:52
a Durham torer was owned by one of the
24:55
customers U this guy Puchi from
24:57
Connecticut who owned restaurants and he
25:00
had at least a dozen duesenbergs and uh
25:04
you know he just kept feeding one after
25:06
another to be restored and one of them
25:09
was this uh Durham torer and Durham was
25:12
a company out of Rosemont Pennsylvania
25:14
which is outside of uh
25:17
Philadelphia and they were in business
25:19
for almost I don't know 80 years or
25:21
something like building all kinds of
25:23
Coach building stuff and uh they were
25:26
famous for building these Durham Tes
25:28
which I think they made six of them Gary
25:30
Cooper owned one and uh at that time in
25:34
the club in the Au and C dusenberg Club
25:36
they were considered one of the best
25:38
designs it's a very minimalist design
25:41
the body is super simple so that worked
25:45
in my favor my grandfather we had no
25:47
skills we had no tools no skills or
25:49
anything but he could hire the woodwork
25:52
is to copy the wood in a structure which
25:55
defined the body and you didn't need any
25:59
bucker or anything and and uh so we had
26:02
a mechanic uh local guy who had a
26:05
brother who was an auto body guy and we
26:08
ended up hiring him and um he was very
26:12
uh resourceful and he he wanted to learn
26:15
how to do this so he learned how to gas
26:17
weld aluminum and he actually made the B
26:20
the Skins around the wood in structure
26:23
that these three Woodworkers that we
26:25
hired so I'm absorbing all this stuff I
26:28
used to work with the Woodworkers and
26:30
they taught me a lot of that stuff so I
26:32
know how to do all that stuff and I
26:35
watched Franny was doing the the panel
26:39
work and the panel work there was no
26:41
such thing as an English wheel we didn't
26:42
know what an English wheel was or a
26:44
power hammer or anything like that we
26:46
had no tools I mean zero it was just
26:49
hammer and Dolly and now is it because
26:51
is it that you didn't know what they
26:53
were because they didn't exist in your
26:55
location well yeah they were few and
26:57
five between them my grandfather was a a
26:59
victim of the depression he would not
27:01
spend any money right uh we just had no
27:04
tools the only tool that was decent he
27:05
bought a pretty decent big band saw
27:08
because the the Woodworkers insisted
27:10
that he buy this band saw so other than
27:13
that it was we didn't have a bending
27:14
break in the shop you know and um at
27:18
first the shop we took over the boat
27:20
part of the shop but then he ended up
27:23
selling that part of the property to a
27:26
company that wanted to put condos on and
27:28
they built these condos and we moved
27:31
into a 5,000 square foot Warehouse that
27:34
we used to store the boats in and that
27:37
became the restoration shop which still
27:39
exists and uh it actually still
27:40
functioning with one of the last
27:42
employees of my grandfather who's done a
27:44
really nice job and um he he uh did a
27:49
lot of duesenbergs too after my my
27:51
grandfather passed on in like
27:53
82 so
27:56
um did you guys ever track where those
27:58
duesenbergs went I'm sure they've been
27:59
dispersed over the years oh yeah they
28:01
got they they went everywhere they
28:02
probably sold 20 times since then you
28:04
know so uh anyways my grandfather had
28:08
this this H potential of building these
28:11
bodies and now the process is on
28:13
underway and we got two or three bodies
28:15
being built at once and Fran's hammering
28:18
away with a hammer and Dolly to put a
28:20
little bit of crown in the door skins
28:22
and stuff and uh the tops of the doors
28:25
are Hammer formed around the wood you
28:27
just knel aluminum and Hammer form it
28:30
around so I didn't really learn too much
28:33
there as far you know just hammer and
28:35
Dolly work and I never any good at it so
28:38
what happened was and this is where I
28:40
come into the picture I mean I'm doing
28:43
all these jobs there I didn't do any of
28:44
the skinning at all I just watched I
28:47
made a lot of little parts and stuff and
28:50
um you know I always kept busy so my
28:52
grandfather hired this guy who uh came
28:55
in uh and he was 20 years older than me
28:59
and he was into Jags and like uh some of
29:02
the Fords the 34 Ford 35 Ford and stuff
29:05
like that so he had a couple of the
29:06
Fords and he had like 20 Jags or 18 Jags
29:11
and he had u a lot of acreage in a rural
29:14
area with an old farmhouse and his wife
29:18
worked and and he didn't he never worked
29:21
so he just played with his cars and he
29:24
decided he was going to learn something
29:26
by coming to work at my grandfather so
29:28
my grandfather hired him and he only
29:30
worked for about a month or two but we
29:32
became good friends we had really good
29:35
conversations and he told me because he
29:38
was a Jag guy he wanted to build a c
29:40
type Jag and he had it all planned out
29:42
in his head how he was going to do it
29:44
and he told me you got to get this thing
29:45
called the English wheel you know and I
29:47
might have heard the term before but he
29:49
says yeah you can make this English
29:51
wheel you know and and he he he was very
29:55
lazy so he never ever made an English
29:57
wheel why at that point so he planted
30:01
the seed so I worked for my grandfather
30:04
until
30:07
1975 and I felt that at 75 I was 24 and
30:11
I felt that my grandpa's was getting
30:13
older okay maybe I could take the
30:15
business over you know and he could
30:17
Mentor me to to run the economics of it
30:20
but because he wasn't blood it didn't
30:23
happen so I had to go off on my own and
30:25
I never made any money there you know he
30:28
always did pretty well again he was he
30:30
always had a brand new caddy and always
30:32
taking vacations and stuff and he had he
30:34
didn't have to work so U that that was
30:38
my my my learning curve you know I
30:40
learned a lot about restoration a little
30:42
bit about shaping and my friend Joe who
30:45
had the
30:46
Jags um he he taught me that you know
30:49
you need this English wheel and 75 I
30:53
leave and I think I'm going to start a
30:56
restoration business well I got money I
30:58
have no money and so next thing that
31:02
happens is a couple years go by and I
31:05
get this opportunity to buy this
31:06
property well I still don't have any
31:08
money but I got a great opportunity to
31:10
buy a piece of property and uh it's on a
31:13
nice US Highway the same Highway that my
31:16
my com my building is on now that I I
31:20
lease and um welltrack Road it's it's an
31:24
old road it's called the Boston Post
31:26
Road Route 20 and it goes actually goes
31:29
all the way to Washington State crosses
31:31
the country it was one of the first
31:33
transcontinental uhh roads and um so I
31:37
bought a property on with two acres and
31:40
I'm going to put up a restoration shop
31:42
and I bought the property with owner
31:45
financing and um I I hooked up with my
31:49
wife we weren't married at the time we
31:51
bought it when we're unmarried and I
31:53
said what are we going to do you know so
31:56
first I went to work for a dealership
31:58
with my father work my father had left
32:00
left my grandfather's and he became a
32:02
car salesman so he says to me he says
32:05
well you know you don't have money for a
32:06
building why why don't you just you know
32:09
you get a lot there and you get good
32:10
exposure why don't you buy and sell cars
32:12
I says well I don't know anything about
32:14
that so all I knew was I knew how to fix
32:17
cars so I say okay I'll do that for a
32:19
couple years make some money and put a
32:20
building up so it turned out I did it
32:24
for like eight years I learned how to
32:26
deal with the public and I actually kind
32:28
of enjoyed it and I learned how to do uh
32:31
repairs quickly and I wasn't smart
32:34
enough to flip a car and make a profit I
32:36
had to restore a car and make a profit
32:39
so I fixed them all up I put new brakes
32:41
in them I put new exhaust systems and
32:44
all that I painted them I had a small
32:46
building to work with I had like a four
32:48
car garage and it was really ramshackled
32:51
the town didn't want me working in the
32:52
building but I worked in it anyways and
32:56
uh next thing you know a guy came by and
32:58
offered me a big number for the property
33:00
at that time was huge so okay so now now
33:04
I can buy a brand new house and pay cash
33:06
for it or I can buy a building that was
33:09
my biggest mistake I went I went and
33:11
bought a house and paid cash for it and
33:14
I moved like 20 miles west where you can
33:16
buy a lot more house by moving 20 miles
33:19
so you know I thought I had a pretty
33:21
nice house a nice lot nice nice town the
33:24
best Street in the town and my wife was
33:27
happy she was working and um I says okay
33:31
I'll I'll work out of my two-car garage
33:34
for a little while first I I I was going
33:36
to do restoration so I got a couple
33:38
little restoration jobs and one was a 48
33:42
Lincoln Continental and I did all the
33:45
metal work on that and I had no idea
33:47
what I'm doing I I bought a MIG welder
33:50
uh in the 70s when I was still Linc
33:52
Lincoln Continental it was a Montgomery
33:55
W MIG welder
33:58
and they were made by um uh what the
34:01
what's the century manufacturing which
34:03
is out of Chicago and they made Snap-on
34:06
the same Snap-on MIG welder so it was
34:08
like a Snap-On MIG welder yeah and it
34:11
worked pretty good and I didn't you know
34:12
I learned how to mig weld I I could gas
34:15
weld but uh TIG welding I didn't I
34:17
didn't even consider TIG welding so
34:21
um uh I fixed this 48 linking up for
34:26
this guy did all the panel work on it
34:28
and then the the guy that bought my
34:31
grandfather's 34 cabet became the uh the
34:35
uh uh car collector he had bought a
34:40
1935 uh dual KY Dietrich
34:43
faton um and it's a it's a very valuable
34:47
car and he bought a bunch of pieces and
34:51
it needed to be put all together and he
34:53
had somebody start to do the job back in
34:56
like 1970
34:58
and the GU flubbed it and he put it in
35:00
storage so now from 70 to now it's like
35:03
85 or
35:05
86 uh he offers me the job of putting
35:08
the car together which means I have to
35:09
do all the wood and it was a door
35:12
missing and uh it was a lot of metal
35:14
work the fenders and and the car was
35:17
just a pile of parts that was it yeah so
35:20
uh I put that together for him and I my
35:24
intent was just to do the metal work and
35:27
meanwhile I'm still friends with my
35:29
friend that has all the Jaguars that
35:30
introduced me to the idea of the English
35:32
wheel and he had all these XK Jags I
35:35
came up with the idea of uh making XK
35:39
Jaguar pots which if you had an XK
35:42
Jaguar you had to get him from England
35:45
so I figured well the shipping cost must
35:47
be you know too high so I'd have a big
35:49
advantage and who else was going to make
35:52
them so somebody had to make them right
35:53
so I'm in my twocc car garage and I
35:56
figured oh this is a nice little
35:57
business I I'll grow it out of here I
35:59
did a little bit of restoration work but
36:01
then I the restoration work went away
36:03
the packet was down in the basement I
36:06
had a two car garage down the basement
36:09
as well and I finished the packet up
36:11
down there as much as I could and U that
36:14
was an ongoing job for a year or a year
36:16
or two maybe putting it all together and
36:19
then meanwhile I started this mail a of
36:21
business through Hemmings making XK
36:24
parts and I had all these samples that
36:27
my friend had let me this have the
36:29
sample so I had a reverse engineer all
36:32
skill sets I learned at my grandfathers
36:33
I knew how to measure measuring is the
36:35
most important thing if you don't
36:36
measure right you're not going to get a
36:38
pot proper so I I decided that I didn't
36:42
want people buying my parts and having
36:46
them calling me up saying my God this
36:49
pot doesn't fit and what are you gonna
36:51
do about it you know so I made sure that
36:54
I did him really nicely yeah and um I I
36:57
built an English wheel at Ron for's book
37:00
had come out and I looked at a picture
37:01
of a fabricated English wheel and there
37:04
I say oh I can make that and I had my
37:06
monk arm reward MIG welder and I had a
37:08
stick welder and uh it was 4x4 quer inch
37:12
wall tubing I made it an English wheel
37:15
and I I made it with a straight up um a
37:19
straight up um bottom Anvil holder so uh
37:24
as I started making the Jag Poots I I
37:26
found out that
37:28
uh you don't want that you want a caned
37:30
lower arm because your panels always hit
37:34
that that upright and it just tore the
37:37
panels up tore the machine up and stuff
37:39
I said if I ever make another wheel I'm
37:42
gonna have a caned low around so uh and
37:46
in a top adjuster I put on it that was a
37:49
kind of a fluke but I I soon determined
37:52
that it was so much easier to use a top
37:54
adjuster than trying to kick that bottom
37:56
adjuster right so uh this was all pre-
37:59
internet and I had nobody to ask for
38:02
when I'm building these Jag pods and I
38:04
thought people would be calling me
38:06
looking for all Fender repairs new
38:09
fenders and all this stuff and uh you
38:12
know ultimately I had no idea what I was
38:14
doing on that stuff on the on the the
38:18
fabricated inner structure like The
38:19
Rocker Sills and the floorboards and all
38:22
that I can figure that all out uh that's
38:25
all breake Bend stuff I bought a breake
38:27
and and I had that all under control but
38:30
now to make the compound curve stuff uh
38:33
I had to learn by videos well videos
38:36
were starting to come out and um there
38:39
was a guy in Florida um uh cal cal Davis
38:45
and he was a auto body guy he was in I
38:47
think mclenny Florida or something him
38:49
and his wife Joyce they started a little
38:52
business and they befriended John Glover
38:54
who was the English trained patent
38:57
wheeler
38:58
and he' worked for General Motors in the
39:00
Prototype Department he' worked for the
39:02
havin aircraft and uh he was a superb uh
39:07
English Craftsman so they did videos of
39:10
him and we're really coming into the era
39:12
here of of of she metal education like
39:16
this is kind of the this is the
39:17
Grassroots we're coming into the era of
39:18
she before that it was shrouded or well
39:21
yeah be prior to this is like from 18
39:24
1985 on yeah to 1985 no but nobody knew
39:29
how to do this other than a handful of
39:31
racing guys and and maybe you know I
39:34
would say probably less than 50 people
39:37
in the whole country yeah and oftentimes
39:39
if like Briggs Cunningham when he had
39:43
his facility in West Palm Beach Florida
39:45
if he needed somebody that knew how to
39:47
do she metal shaping they would import
39:49
an English Craftsman and have him live
39:51
there and work for them and um you know
39:54
that's just how it happened and a lot of
39:56
the big shops probably did that they
39:58
they bring bring this outside labor from
40:00
England in and and then then that solved
40:03
the problem but by 85 the the the whole
40:06
scene of the collector cars and we're
40:08
talking the Upper Crust the collector
40:10
cars the Rolls-Royce the Bentley's the
40:12
duesenbergs the packets the P arrows all
40:15
that stuff the value was Rising so much
40:19
that and you couldn't find pots anymore
40:21
so now that was the stimulus to learn
40:24
these new skill sets so the restoration
40:26
shop now they had to make a fender they
40:29
couldn't buy one at Hershey anymore they
40:32
no longer existed right so they had to
40:35
learn the skill sets and uh I I heard uh
40:39
Bobby Walden's uh interview the other
40:42
day that when you did I watched it and
40:44
he went to Scott Knight and he he
40:47
mentioned that Scott Knight was alumni
40:49
of California metal shaping and he was
40:53
sort of like the font of a lot of this
40:55
spread of information
40:57
and I never went to his class but I did
41:00
see a video he started videoing some of
41:02
his first class and and and a a a a guy
41:06
here actually in the town I'm in
41:08
Charlton had a restoration shop and he
41:11
went to one of his classes and had the
41:13
the video and I watched the video and I
41:15
learned a ton from that I could see how
41:17
he's operating both his classes and how
41:20
what he was doing and
41:23
um after after he started teaching one
41:26
of the the students was Fay Butler and
41:28
then Fay Butler started Dent which just
41:30
so happens that um my friend Joe who had
41:33
all the Jags somehow got to know Fay
41:36
Butler and he told me oh this guy's got
41:38
these big hammers and you got to come
41:40
out and see him and all this so I went
41:41
over there and I saw his Hammers and I
41:44
knew my situation with the garage and
41:47
FaZe got a class on at that time and
41:49
he's trying to get me to go to the class
41:51
but I says there's no way he he doesn't
41:53
have an English wheel he doesn't know
41:54
anything about English Wheels I says I
41:57
can't put a hammer in in my
41:59
garage so uh I just didn't have the room
42:02
for it and I wasn't ready to launch out
42:05
of the garage yet as it turns out as a
42:08
big error another big error in my life I
42:11
spent 25 years in that garage in those
42:15
25 years we're learning all the the the
42:18
nuts and bolts of how to do shaping so
42:21
my my medium was XK Jaguar stuff and uh
42:26
I you know
42:27
I I compare it to like the Beatles going
42:29
to Hamburg that's when they became
42:31
musicians because they played like six
42:33
to eight hours a day every day and that
42:37
repetition is where you really learn and
42:40
um you know that really hammered at home
42:43
to me and uh had this substandard
42:46
English wheel and um the next thing was
42:51
uh how can I speed things up a little
42:53
bit well the enticement of the hammer
42:55
it's always the hammer can make things
42:58
go faster well I opened up a auto
43:01
automobile quarterly that I found
43:03
somewhere and it had a picture of an
43:05
Italian style Hammer which is this uh
43:08
the Big Arm deal Sosa Metal Works makes
43:11
one now they call it the
43:14
uh the what shap Matic shap Matic yeah
43:18
but this is real small L and stuff I
43:20
made I made mine look like what the
43:22
Italians did with a wooden
43:23
arm it's and it's real slow as the far
43:26
as the Hammer really
43:28
controllable and uh any shape part that
43:31
I made uh after I made that I made that
43:34
in like 93 because I would pound them
43:37
out all by hand but after I I built that
43:40
hammer and learned how to use it and it
43:42
took me a year to to learn it didn't
43:44
take up any space because it uses the
43:47
floor as a structural element you just
43:49
bolt it to the floor and um it has quite
43:52
a wallup and I figured out you can
43:54
shrink with it so you can stretch and
43:56
Shrink at will and you don't need
43:59
special dyes or anything I just used
44:01
delin dieses and in fact I used uhmw
44:04
dieses at that time which is cheaper
44:06
than delin and uh I could I could pop
44:09
out the the Jag panels pretty quick and
44:12
this was all discovery on my part and um
44:16
you know what was happening at that time
44:18
was um it was the the the powerhammer
44:23
community was grow Leaps and Bounds
44:25
because the perception was the English
44:27
wheel is super slow and the power hammer
44:30
is super fast right so a lot of people
44:33
went to the power hammer and it kind of
44:35
ignored the potential of the English
44:37
wheel well not only did I build that
44:40
Italian style Hammer just from a picture
44:43
it took me a month to build it and um
44:46
you know my skill sets back in 933 and
44:48
not like what they are now so it worked
44:51
okay and it it's never failed I still
44:53
could use it tomorrow if I want to and I
44:56
decided did that the little the wheel
44:58
that I had made which had like I don't
44:59
know 40 inch throat or so I was going to
45:02
make a monster so now I went to the
45:04
scrapyard we had three scrap yards
45:06
really close by and I bought all these
45:08
eye beams and tubes and all kinds of
45:10
stuff and I made this 57 inch throat
45:13
English wheel and um I had the idea that
45:17
a wider top wheel was a much better
45:20
thing than a standard 3in wheel uh as
45:24
soon as I made the the new top wheel
45:26
which I did make it I went to the scrap
45:28
yach and I found a a really nice
45:31
hardened wheel that I could use I just
45:34
had to put baronss in it and the first
45:36
one I had I think was pretty concentric
45:38
I didn't have to do too much to it but
45:41
then I had to make bigger anvils and I
45:43
had a little lathe that I bought and it
45:45
was really pushing the the limitations
45:48
of that lathe and I made new anvils and
45:51
once I started using this is like night
45:52
and day yeah you know so people compare
45:55
English Wheels to power hand
45:57
that's apples and oranges when when you
45:59
have proper English wheel with proper
46:01
tooling now you're on the same uh
46:04
playing field with the power hammer well
46:07
the power hammer can shrink like crazy
46:09
with the thumbnail die you can't shrink
46:12
with an English wheel but there are
46:14
other ways to shrink and so I I I had to
46:16
learn how to other ways to shrink one of
46:18
them was on my Italian style Hammer um
46:22
that I could shrink pretty easily with
46:24
that but I could you could only shrink
46:26
in about two 2 inches with a power
46:28
hammer with a thumbnail dial you can go
46:30
you can technically go in you know
46:32
whatever the throat is on the power
46:34
hammer but but in practicality you never
46:36
shrink that far in all you need to do is
46:39
shrink you know two to six inches or so
46:43
depending on the situation the panel
46:45
you're making and that speeds up the
46:47
event quite a bit so if you have the
46:50
ability to shrink the edges uh that
46:53
that's a good thing so um I used my
46:58
Italian style power hammer for years to
47:00
shrink with and um that worked fine for
47:03
the for the Jaguar parts all the shrink
47:05
marcks totally came out the panels were
47:08
perfect there's a difference between the
47:10
thickness and the in the crown of the
47:13
panel it might be you know four or 5
47:15
thousand of an inch thinner and it might
47:17
be two or three thousand thicker On The
47:19
Edge on a Yoda uh or power hammer the
47:23
the thickness of the center of the panel
47:25
can maintain all almost what you start
47:27
with you might maybe lose a thousand in
47:29
the final planish or whatever but your
47:32
Edge thickness might go up four or 5
47:34
th000 so um that's the only difference
47:38
and um it it's IM material as long as
47:41
the panel that you make and pass the the
47:44
dent resistance test which is to hit it
47:46
hard with your knuckles and not make a a
47:48
mark on it because you can easily Dent
47:51
any Automotive panel so but if you can
47:54
resist a good wrap of the knuckles
47:57
that's Pro positive you're doing the
47:59
right thing you're not you're not making
48:01
the panel totally by stretching it so
48:04
you have the ability to sh stretch and
48:07
shrink and I love the way the English
48:09
wheel planish is out and the fact it
48:12
doesn't make any noise so that was a big
48:15
factor for me I I te I couldn't make
48:17
noise in my two-car garage how close
48:20
were your neighbors were they CL I had
48:21
one neighbor he was about 100 feet away
48:24
and they were never there I could have
48:26
probably made noise and my I had my
48:29
Italian hammer in my twocc car garage
48:31
and my daughter went for a walk down the
48:33
side street and it was about a quarter
48:35
of a mile away and the guy said to my
48:37
daughter what's your father doing in
48:39
that garage he makes a lot of noise so I
48:42
says oh so I moved the hammer down
48:44
into the basement which he couldn't
48:47
couldn't hear then Soh it was a little
48:50
inconvenient I had to walk down the
48:51
basement for that but it wasn't that bad
48:54
of course I ruined my knees going down
48:56
all the steps I need I need two knees
49:00
now 25 this was for 25 years right 25
49:03
years going up and down steps yeah so so
49:06
anyways um I worked I I I got better and
49:09
better and better um but you know I was
49:14
making a moderate living you couldn't
49:16
you couldn't hire anybody I had a couple
49:18
helpers pot time helpers under the table
49:21
type of stuff and um they were my
49:23
daughter's friends they were cutting
49:25
pieces out punching holes and all that
49:28
and then I bought a CNC plasma cutter
49:31
and that was $10,000 and that made a big
49:34
difference is now I can make English
49:35
wheels so I figured oh I could
49:37
supplement my income I'll start making
49:39
English
49:40
wheels and I designed a nice roundish
49:44
English wheel and I found out quickly
49:47
that uh it was too labor intensive to
49:49
make and it was impossible to make any
49:50
money on it but it was great having the
49:53
plasma cutter because I can make all
49:54
kinds of different tools and and U
49:57
brackets and all kinds of stuff um but
50:00
that was a that was a big step forward
50:02
spending the money on that plasma cut
50:04
and then um the plasma cutter became the
50:08
the source of how I could make shrinking
50:10
disc the shrinking disc have been my my
50:12
little money maker through the years so
50:15
I started making shrinking D it was
50:17
actually Scott Knight who gave the
50:20
classes who I don't know who came up
50:22
with it or he did or somebody knows or
50:24
whatever he started selling the
50:26
shrinking do which are now sold by
50:27
sunchaser tools uh what's his name u
50:33
yakamoto p Sakamoto yes yeah who worked
50:36
for Scott Knight in the early years and
50:38
he bought the shrinking disc business
50:40
from him I guess no so the I bought two
50:43
two shrinking discs from from uh from
50:46
Scott Knight back then and uh it came
50:48
with a little mimig graph thing that had
50:51
these Ruffles on the edges that you run
50:53
it on the concrete floor to to kill the
50:55
outer edge because otherwise it'll tear
50:57
up your panel and um and then as the
51:01
internet came in everybody in 95 uh the
51:05
internet came in for everybody and I
51:09
helped start a group called metal
51:11
Shapers and um then then metal meet I
51:15
started with a friend in uh he did all
51:17
the web work uh uh Dave Miller from um
51:21
Nashville and in exchange for working on
51:24
his Lotus he he built the site for me
51:27
and um that was like building the first
51:29
community of Shapers and stuff it was
51:31
fun but um I got fored out pretty quick
51:34
because people uh get really nasty on
51:37
forums and I just I didn't have time for
51:40
it and I was spending too much time on
51:42
the Forum I I tend to go overboard on
51:45
stuff so so anyway early early 2000s
51:49
yeah the metal Shapers uh started at
51:52
2000s then I organized uh with u George
51:56
King who was from Huntsville Alabama his
51:58
father had this basically a billion
52:01
dollar company and he had a beautiful
52:03
7,000 square foot uh play shop and and
52:07
Tom lipon who has a really cool YouTube
52:10
channel uh called Ox Ox tools he's a
52:14
machinist a perb machinist the three of
52:17
us put together a plan that we'd all go
52:19
to Georges and we ended up having I
52:22
don't know about 60 people or something
52:24
from the metal metal meat no from the
52:26
metal shet Pap site go to Huntsville and
52:28
I think we did the Huntsville thing two
52:30
years and I was trying to get everybody
52:32
to scratch build cars and uh we we
52:36
scratch built a couple bodies and but it
52:38
was a crazy mess and um it was a lot of
52:44
fun uh the first one was fun the second
52:46
one was fun and then we moved it to um
52:50
uh Illinois with one of the guys we met
52:52
from Huntsville who had a big five acre
52:56
lot 6 wat Randy Ferguson he well we can
52:59
have it in my y so I say okay he had a
53:02
big building but he didn't have access
53:03
to the whole building so we rented a
53:05
tent and we had the metal meat in a tent
53:09
and um that's a whole funny story is
53:12
that one year um the tent that rained uh
53:17
for like um a week before the event and
53:21
the ground was all soggy and it was
53:23
probably like three three feet of top
53:25
soil there so they said what do you want
53:28
what Stakes do you want you want the the
53:30
short Stakes or the long Stakes well it
53:31
was more money for the long stakes and
53:33
Randy opted for the short
53:35
Stakes so we got this enormous TI it's
53:38
like 200 feet by 100 feet in his
53:41
backyard with like 135 people in it and
53:45
it's all muddy so we've put this straw
53:47
down we're talking like a hundred bales
53:49
of straw we had to buy put on the ground
53:51
and people are grinding and spars are
53:54
going waiting happen so um this is I
53:59
think
54:00
2004 and um we had different lectures
54:04
and stuff and there's a couple guys that
54:06
came in gave lectures I gave lectures on
54:09
how to do this how to do that and we
54:11
were still in that infancy I mean
54:13
everybody was still learning at that
54:15
time and uh I didn't really know how to
54:17
present really well at that time either
54:19
I was very shy and um the the the one
54:24
guy from Washington State to decided
54:26
that because it was getting hot in the
54:28
tent he was going to lit the sides up he
54:30
lets the sides up and there's like these
54:32
gusts of 50 mph winds coming into the
54:35
tent and blowing the tent up and pull
54:39
Stakes out and there's like a hundred
54:41
people at least inside this tent and the
54:43
tent collapsed on him oh
54:46
no nobody got hurt yeah amazingly but
54:51
the local TV came out and video and all
54:54
kind of stuff and we rolled this tent up
54:57
and there was these bubbles in the tent
54:58
and I say oh I just hope there's nobody
55:00
in that bubble funny we we didn't have a
55:04
counting or
55:05
anything did you guys have full full
55:07
machines in there too like did somebody
55:08
bring yeah every everybody brought stuff
55:11
and everybody brought trailed you know
55:13
stuff in and then after that they
55:16
decided that they could rent these local
55:18
Fairgrounds yeah and I pretty much had
55:21
it after that and I left uh I went to
55:24
see the fairgrounds but I never actually
55:26
participated in the
55:28
fairgrounds um it it it was a fun
55:31
premise and I was instrumental in
55:32
getting going and I'm sure a lot of
55:34
people benefited from it but it's not
55:36
for me so um I I I started doing classes
55:42
in
55:43
2005 uh people kept saying oh you should
55:46
do classes so I had the classes I was
55:48
still at my house at that time and I'd
55:50
have three people come to do the class
55:52
yeah and they would bring you know this
55:55
rusty old for Defender and we'd spend
55:57
two days taking the rust off you know
56:00
and you know I I was never a Ford guy I
56:03
was always a packet and a dusenberg guy
56:05
you know so I I was probably an leadest
56:07
snob to them but um you know that I
56:11
learned very early that if you're G to
56:14
do this stuff you have to have the value
56:16
and this is where the economics of it
56:18
come in you know so um finally in 2011
56:23
it was time for me to get out of my
56:25
twocc car garage
56:26
so I couldn't afford to buy anything I
56:29
didn't have any money I never never made
56:31
any money but I had a lot of fun you
56:33
know I have no regrets it was a lot of
56:34
fun my my learning curve just kept going
56:37
better and better and better so I was
56:39
able to rent a small building I was uh
56:42
3,000 square
56:47
no yeah 3,000 square feet and it was
56:49
like 1200 bucks a month in an old
56:52
factory building about half an hour from
56:54
my house in Connecticut so it just so
56:57
happens there's a quarter mile racetrack
56:59
right down the street from where this
57:00
building was so I thought oh boy that's
57:03
going to be good all these people would
57:04
come in and my business is going to Roar
57:06
not one of them ever came in nobody
57:08
they're totally uninterested I'd have an
57:10
open house and I'd get maybe two or
57:12
three people come in yeah yeah you know
57:14
so um I started there I had no employees
57:18
it was all by myself and uh the only
57:22
employees I had were those kids working
57:24
under the table part time for me and and
57:28
now became a parent I got a couple jobs
57:30
in that I had I had to have
57:32
employees and you know I was doing a
57:34
little restoration work I was still
57:36
doing Jag work and I was doing making
57:39
trying to make English real so I was
57:40
kind of scattered around and um I knew
57:44
that being scattered around was the
57:46
problem but and I I couldn't handle all
57:48
the work so I I ended up hiring one of
57:50
my first students guy Jack who was
57:53
really good but he was super slow and
57:55
that's a problem with a lot of your
57:57
employees that that they don't work U
58:00
you know with the same speed that you
58:03
you're expecting them or what you would
58:05
do so um the employee situation became a
58:09
big problem always um so uh I worked
58:13
there at that shop
58:15
for um how many years so 2011 to 2015 so
58:21
it was four years I was there and my
58:23
landlord there was horrible so so it
58:26
just so happens that um and I I expanded
58:30
down it went from 3,000 square feet to
58:33
7,000 there was ad joining uh uh shops
58:38
that had just doors and I could open
58:39
them up and now I get 7,000 square feet
58:42
nice so so you know that was good but uh
58:46
I didn't really see how it was going to
58:47
expand the business and um you know it
58:51
was always really on Shaky Ground the
58:54
whole the whole deal and
58:56
you know I knew I could train my
58:58
employees I got Jack and Jack was from
59:01
zero to what I what it he learned from
59:04
me he was really good he had an autistic
59:07
eye and uh but the only thing was he was
59:10
really
59:11
slow
59:13
so I had a problem with the landlord the
59:16
landlord uh Ra was raising the rent and
59:19
you know the place was not premium what
59:21
whatsoever and then it was a 30 mile
59:23
drive every day and I was coming home
59:26
like 12:30 at night and um so I had the
59:30
opportunity to rent this building it
59:32
came up for rent right in the town to
59:34
the uh one town over into Charlton and
59:38
it's a 20,000 square foot building and
59:42
um the landlords are unbelievably good
59:45
landlord you know he's been a landlord
59:47
he he's about eight months older than me
59:49
and uh I didn't I just don't have the
59:51
money to buy a building so um I said
59:55
okay I'm gonna going to rent from this
59:57
guy and he he took a flyer on me he had
59:59
no idea how I was going to pay the bills
1:00:02
so I I I started renting here in
1:00:06
2015 and he gave me a break for like the
1:00:09
first six months but then the rubber had
1:00:11
hit the road and I and I somehow I don't
1:00:14
know how it happened but next thing you
1:00:16
know I had a bunch of jobs in the shop
1:00:18
and I had 11
1:00:20
employes and I couldn't do any work I
1:00:23
was monitoring what everybody was doing
1:00:26
all the time and usually it wasn't up to
1:00:28
my snuff so I quickly learned that if
1:00:32
you act as the shop manager they all
1:00:35
hate
1:00:36
you and you need a shop manager you know
1:00:40
if you watch the boy cotting and show
1:00:42
Dwayne was the shop manager everybody
1:00:45
hated Dwayne well if you're gonna have
1:00:47
an efficient shop you need a bulldog
1:00:50
like Dwayne in order to keep things
1:00:52
going and you got to stay uh in posure
1:00:55
you got be like the Supreme Court you
1:00:57
got to weigh what Dwayne say says versus
1:01:00
what the employee says and then you come
1:01:02
out on top if you act like Dwayne the
1:01:06
employees all hate you right right right
1:01:08
so it that was a struggle and a real
1:01:11
learning curve and my skill set uh
1:01:14
wasn't really being used I was more
1:01:16
managing at that time so that that went
1:01:18
on for like two or three years and
1:01:20
slowly but sure um the attrition set in
1:01:23
so customers didn't want to spend money
1:01:26
or whatever and the job's finished and
1:01:28
no customer replaced the ones that got
1:01:30
finished and um you know next thing I
1:01:33
know I had four employees or three
1:01:35
employees so now I've be getting by with
1:01:38
two employees with a couple part- timers
1:01:40
here and there so I have um two
1:01:43
full-time employees and two part-timers
1:01:46
now and what did you prefer now that
1:01:49
you've seen both sides of the coin you
1:01:50
had 11 people I would love to have a
1:01:53
shop with like 15 people that had the um
1:01:57
the the the the the mindset to learn
1:02:00
more every day and to get better every
1:02:03
day but that's an impossible dream
1:02:05
that's what I found out so my my class
1:02:09
has started in my two-car garage with
1:02:11
three people I think the most I ever had
1:02:12
was five people at my twocc car garage
1:02:16
and U generally everybody left pretty
1:02:18
happy um but then I had the classes down
1:02:22
in Connecticut and they got a little bit
1:02:23
bigger they got to seven or eight people
1:02:26
now I'm in a 20,000 square foot building
1:02:28
with a lot of cars in the shop and
1:02:30
everything and the biggest class I had
1:02:32
was 23 people yeah and it turns out that
1:02:36
class was the most efficient class I've
1:02:38
ever had and it was just me there was no
1:02:40
helpers or anything and uh you know I'd
1:02:43
have to run 90 miles an hour to to keep
1:02:46
everybody happy and the funny thing
1:02:48
about teaching that I found was that
1:02:51
nobody asks any questions all through
1:02:53
the years I Tau I could on the my hands
1:02:57
how many people asked a good question
1:03:00
you know they were just afraid to ask
1:03:02
questions I don't know what it is and
1:03:05
I'm I'm like a question machine if I if
1:03:08
I went to any type of class they would
1:03:10
get so sick of me because I'd ask so
1:03:12
many questions it be you know I just
1:03:14
bury them in questions right and that's
1:03:17
the way I learn but the good thing about
1:03:20
the classes was I learned to another
1:03:23
level totally because um they made
1:03:26
mistakes that I never made and you have
1:03:29
to learn how to correct those mistakes
1:03:31
for each student so um it it it was a
1:03:35
really fun process learning how to
1:03:37
correct those mistakes and I knew once I
1:03:40
learned how to correct all those
1:03:42
mistakes my skill sets were getting
1:03:43
better and better and better sure you
1:03:45
know so but the problem is how do I
1:03:48
apply my skill set in a business that
1:03:52
will make money because everybody thinks
1:03:54
you're making a lot of money doing
1:03:55
classes well it's tough to make money
1:03:57
doing classes too now it was super
1:04:00
disruptive because it took basically a
1:04:02
week out of every month because I had
1:04:05
prep time before to set the shop up for
1:04:07
the class prep time and cleanup time
1:04:09
after yeah and you know meant moving
1:04:12
jobs around moving benches around and I
1:04:15
mean I have a big shop and I I I at that
1:04:17
time I had like 12 English Wheels now I
1:04:19
got like 15 English wheels and I got a
1:04:22
power hammer I made and um you know and
1:04:25
and I teach a method that's totally
1:04:29
different than anybody else's it's a
1:04:31
method that I learned and how did I
1:04:33
learn it well I learned it by
1:04:35
observation I learned how the English
1:04:37
work I learned how the Italians work a
1:04:40
little bit of how the French were and
1:04:43
how the Americans were and I kind of and
1:04:46
and then I had 25 years of making those
1:04:48
Jag panels so I put it all together and
1:04:50
I got a pretty good system yeah and I
1:04:53
came up with a lot of Innovations one
1:04:56
the wide top wheel uh in flexible shape
1:04:59
pattern the flexible shape pattern came
1:05:01
up from when I was making the Jag pods
1:05:03
it's an amazing tool and it's not used
1:05:06
probably more than by 10% of the the
1:05:08
metal shaping Community out they
1:05:10
probably never no idea about a lot of
1:05:12
them don't have any idea about a wide
1:05:14
top wheel the vantages of it versus you
1:05:17
know to stand it and a lot of them think
1:05:19
that a cast English wheel is the way to
1:05:21
go and a lot of them think that you have
1:05:24
to English Wheel by doing patent wheel
1:05:27
and that's that's what the way I learned
1:05:29
with John globber was patent Wheeling
1:05:31
right and and uh I tried patent wheel
1:05:34
and I found it super boring I said
1:05:36
where's the where's the power hammer at
1:05:38
you know because it's so boring so I I I
1:05:42
called it Jazz Wheeling because when I
1:05:44
found that i i u patent wheeled meaning
1:05:48
all the the the tracks on the panel have
1:05:51
to be closely spaced just like mowing a
1:05:53
lawn M and if I did that I'd always end
1:05:56
up with low spots here and there and I'd
1:05:59
have to learn how to correct them
1:06:00
anyways so I thought learning how to
1:06:03
correct deficiencies in a panel was a
1:06:06
better skill set than trying to perfect
1:06:08
it right from the get-go ah interesting
1:06:10
so so I was blowing the panels out
1:06:13
shrinking and stretching them on my uh
1:06:16
my Italian style powerhammer I built
1:06:19
this really cool big powerhammer I never
1:06:21
use it I I I could sell it but I and I
1:06:25
didn't use it much in the classes a lot
1:06:27
of people wanted to see it but I knew
1:06:30
that they would never have the money or
1:06:31
the space to do to put that up yeah so I
1:06:34
do I do still have it because I can
1:06:37
shrink thicker Metals with it and I can
1:06:40
use it for architectural stuff and and
1:06:42
sculptural stuff which I've used it a
1:06:44
little bit but I hardly ever use it and
1:06:47
I don't use the pullmax I have a pullmax
1:06:49
a friend of mine gave gave me a trump
1:06:52
machine which is not as good as a pull
1:06:54
I've had three p in the past I sold them
1:06:57
all and I have two planishing Hammers
1:07:01
and I only used the planishing hammer
1:07:03
like 5% of the time and a big Discovery
1:07:06
like two years ago was a small English
1:07:09
wheel I had one of my students was
1:07:11
building an alphao in fact you worked on
1:07:14
I think part of the reender or something
1:07:17
and he he say you know if we had a small
1:07:19
wheel this would really help because
1:07:21
there was a lot of detail work that so I
1:07:23
made up a little 2-inch uh upper die and
1:07:26
a two inch lower die in a small little
1:07:28
frame with about 18inch throat it was a
1:07:31
it was a breakthrough yeah it's it it
1:07:34
does exactly what the planishing hammer
1:07:36
does but so much better because every
1:07:38
time I used the planishing hammer I
1:07:39
walked away disappointed it fixed one
1:07:42
problem and created
1:07:44
another um but you know it has its value
1:07:47
I still use it but probably only 1% of
1:07:49
the times the pullmax I'm not big guy on
1:07:52
on um beads uh everybody's into beads
1:07:56
and and you know the cars and stuff I
1:08:00
worked on didn't have
1:08:01
beads um so uh if I wanted to make a
1:08:04
bead yeah I can do it on my tipping
1:08:07
wheel uh I can do it on a bead roller I
1:08:09
can do it on my trump machine so I have
1:08:11
a couple options but I've had that Trump
1:08:13
machine since like
1:08:15
2012 I bet you I haven't used it more
1:08:18
than three hours since 2012 I had Matt
1:08:21
salaman on the show and he said you want
1:08:22
to get ray really upset get him to talk
1:08:24
about a pull for a little while get them
1:08:26
get them really fired up get them
1:08:28
mad they're great machines but I don't
1:08:31
think you really need them you know and
1:08:33
I always get my class to the guy that's
1:08:35
building his stuff at
1:08:37
home and uh he's got limited space
1:08:40
limited budget and if you start filling
1:08:43
the your small space up with a pullmax
1:08:46
and a powerhammer you're not gonna have
1:08:47
any room to work you know and you don't
1:08:49
need it you don't need it and and my my
1:08:54
uh
1:08:55
uh biggest influence was probably how
1:08:58
the Italians make the bodies and now
1:09:00
when I came to the realization that the
1:09:02
Italians um they were really hammered
1:09:05
they had gone through the depression
1:09:06
they had gone through musolini they had
1:09:08
gone through the war and they come out
1:09:10
of the war and they had nothing except
1:09:12
for 2,000 years of skills that have been
1:09:15
passed down through their family so they
1:09:17
have a culture similar to the Chinese
1:09:20
where it's bred into you almost and they
1:09:23
got a great aesthetic sense all of ital
1:09:25
is beautiful everything's beautiful the
1:09:27
landscape's Beautiful the buildings are
1:09:29
beautiful the streets are beautiful the
1:09:31
women are beautiful you name it
1:09:32
everything's beautiful in Italy so um
1:09:35
they they Revere Beauty so when it comes
1:09:38
to cars their cars are beautiful and uh
1:09:42
they they learned through probably from
1:09:45
the Roman days that you could do
1:09:46
anything with sheet metal and you don't
1:09:48
need tools to do it so U they had a flat
1:09:52
Big Slab of metal there was probably
1:09:55
World War II scrap that they ground flat
1:09:59
and um that would be their planishing
1:10:01
tool and then they had a big ass stump
1:10:04
that might be three feet or four feet in
1:10:06
diameter that's their shrinking and
1:10:08
stretching tool and it had wooden
1:10:10
mallets and a couple auto body tools
1:10:13
Hammers and and a couple dolles and and
1:10:16
a and a gas welding setup and they could
1:10:18
build anything all the great Ferraris
1:10:21
and Maseratis and Lanas they were all
1:10:24
built the ones that are most valuable
1:10:27
were built by hand like that and it
1:10:30
wasn't only until the the uh late 60s
1:10:33
they started stamping stuff out and they
1:10:36
didn't stamp the Italians didn't stamp a
1:10:38
whole Fender out and it was mostly you
1:10:41
know Fiat money that came in uh or
1:10:45
bigger contracts or whatever and I just
1:10:47
I didn't realiz realized um just you
1:10:50
know like a year ago so I had I bought
1:10:53
this auto body shop from uh uh from
1:10:57
Boston area out and and I got a a brand
1:11:01
new uh G GTB Fender from the 1966
1:11:06
Ferrari and it was made by penen FIA
1:11:09
yeah and and I saw all the pieces in I
1:11:11
says wow they're handmade all those
1:11:13
pieces but and the wells were perfect
1:11:16
and they look like they were they're
1:11:18
Fusion Wells because there was little
1:11:20
openings here and there and at the time
1:11:23
I was doing a video on this Austin NE
1:11:25
shroud that I got from the same company
1:11:27
it was
1:11:28
all uh dented so bad it was all waded up
1:11:32
and I I straightened it out and and in
1:11:35
my comments of my YouTube channel uh guy
1:11:38
said well you know hey didn't make those
1:11:40
shrouds for the Healey Jensen did and
1:11:43
Jensen stamped them so it was like eight
1:11:46
pieces in it and I figured oh that look
1:11:48
at that they made little dieses and they
1:11:50
stamped sections and then they jigged it
1:11:52
up I don't know if you ever seen
1:11:53
Mercedes or Porsche
1:11:55
how they put the panels together they
1:11:57
have these exoskeletons of Steel yeah
1:12:00
and they got a little spot and they got
1:12:01
it all clamped together and they gas
1:12:03
welded them yeah and that's probably
1:12:05
what they did with uh the Jensen did
1:12:08
with his Healey shrouds the aluminum
1:12:10
shrouds and so after seeing that that
1:12:14
that was stamped it became obvious to me
1:12:16
that that's what pen and frenia was
1:12:18
doing on these quarter panel that I that
1:12:20
I had that the P they were partially
1:12:23
stamped and then welded together
1:12:25
and that's how they they got their their
1:12:27
productivity
1:12:29
up um if you're building you know
1:12:31
onesies or maybe 10 of something it's
1:12:35
very very difficult to make money and uh
1:12:38
one of the best uh shops in Italy they
1:12:41
had the the most the B the boldest
1:12:44
designs was scaglietti shop sure which
1:12:47
he was a friend of of Enzo and he got
1:12:50
these juicy race car jobs it Enzo would
1:12:54
have a
1:12:55
a chassis brought over there and this
1:12:57
and scagg atti Shop would knock out a
1:13:00
body in a week there's probably seven
1:13:02
guys and uh I had two Danish students
1:13:06
come and they told me they went to Italy
1:13:09
year after year after year and they
1:13:10
couldn't get into any of the shops and
1:13:12
they found this guy that open the doors
1:13:14
for everybody and they met this guy uh
1:13:17
Jan Carlo Gera who was like the number
1:13:21
one hire at skagle Yeti and he was the
1:13:24
one that actually built like the GTO and
1:13:28
and the tester Rosa and the California
1:13:31
all these icon ferari designs that are
1:13:34
worth multiple millions in the case of
1:13:37
the GTO Ferrari we're talking
1:13:38
potentially a hundred million dollar car
1:13:40
now uh and and he was doing the work
1:13:43
scaglietti got the credit right how was
1:13:46
he doing the work um there's like four
1:13:48
videos online in YouTube and if you know
1:13:51
Italian it's even better but there's one
1:13:53
I think it's translated or something but
1:13:55
it's it's an interview of Gian Carlo
1:13:57
Guera in 2019 just before he died and um
1:14:03
you know he he he takes credit for all
1:14:05
those cars and I don't doubt it because
1:14:07
after he left skagle Yeti he started his
1:14:09
own shop and he had an assembly line and
1:14:13
and these two Danish guys took the
1:14:14
pictures and they gave me all the
1:14:16
pictures showing G's shop and it
1:14:20
assembly line and making GTO and and and
1:14:23
and and tester Roes and and they were
1:14:26
using lesser Dolly Ferrari running gear
1:14:29
and Chassis and converting them into the
1:14:31
more valuable GTO and stuff so you know
1:14:35
that the Italian method was the one that
1:14:38
held out the most appeal to me it's slow
1:14:41
but they made up for it by having seven
1:14:43
people do it and and I read that it took
1:14:47
more time to actually do the body work
1:14:50
after the body was built they filled
1:14:52
them and I don't know if they were using
1:14:54
Bondo at that time is Bondo came Bondo
1:14:57
came out in the
1:14:58
mid-50s um but they they they had other
1:15:00
other ways of filling the bodies but it
1:15:03
took more hours to actually get the the
1:15:05
the body smooth and painted than it did
1:15:08
to actually make the aluminum panels
1:15:11
really and and and they they used a
1:15:13
wireform system to create the lines and
1:15:17
then they used a super leara system
1:15:18
which everybody copied from touring
1:15:21
Coachworks and um and is this why you're
1:15:24
so Co wire form over a wood Buck oh yeah
1:15:27
yeah yeah the wood bucks The Mystery of
1:15:30
the wood bucks is also um when people
1:15:33
say wood Buck
1:15:35
um it's a Wood Station buck and then a
1:15:38
wood Buck totally different animals a a
1:15:41
a wood Buck that's made out of hardwood
1:15:44
hardwood that's used as a hammer form to
1:15:46
ensure Symmetry and to ensure um the
1:15:50
pots really fit that's a totally
1:15:53
different animal like for instance
1:15:55
Cobras were made on a solid wooden Buck
1:15:58
the the back end and the front end were
1:16:00
solid wood and uh you've ever seen the
1:16:04
still existing wood Cobra Buck it's all
1:16:08
splined up and they fixed it with Bondo
1:16:10
through the years and stuff and um
1:16:12
there's just so much to learn from both
1:16:15
the English and the Italians and the
1:16:18
Americans pretty much coach building
1:16:20
went away except for a few outliers you
1:16:23
know it was like Durham
1:16:26
lasted to like 70 um in in Pennsylvania
1:16:30
and then there was a couple guys on on
1:16:32
the west coast and a couple guys in
1:16:35
Indianapolis you know those are the only
1:16:37
guys that knew how to do anything did
1:16:39
the Americans really modernized the
1:16:41
stamping process for production purposes
1:16:43
whereas the Europeans maybe kept coach
1:16:45
stamp stamping came out in from the
1:16:48
Dodge Brothers when when the Dodge
1:16:50
Brothers and Ford broke up in like 1914
1:16:52
or something they Dodge Brothers were
1:16:55
machinists and they saw that you had to
1:16:58
mechanize as much as possible and it was
1:17:00
a company called Bud Manufacturing in um
1:17:04
in Philadelphia and they built these big
1:17:07
stamping presses and that's that's where
1:17:10
it all started and so the bud presses
1:17:13
eventually migrated to Germany Germany
1:17:16
became the leader in stamping and then
1:17:18
it migrated to Japan they're the leaders
1:17:20
in stamping but now it's probably
1:17:22
Chinese uh the Chinese have buil more
1:17:25
cars than anybody today and it's all
1:17:26
stamped you know so going back to the
1:17:30
economics of of of of of building
1:17:32
handbuilt cars the Italians could tell
1:17:35
you the most because they built a lot of
1:17:37
them and nobody got rich all the
1:17:39
companies went to fun if you didn't
1:17:42
transition from doing onesies and
1:17:44
Tuesday to hundreds and then to hundreds
1:17:46
of thousands and the only way you can do
1:17:49
that is with lots of capital so um you
1:17:53
know uh those C that they made Italians
1:17:56
made the most beautiful designs probably
1:17:59
the most handbuilt cars of anybody that
1:18:01
built handbuilt cars and they prove to
1:18:04
be the most valuable and the workmanship
1:18:07
on them is not top-notch and the
1:18:10
collectors like the fact that it's not
1:18:12
top-notch they like to see the human
1:18:14
mistakes I don't get that I'm I'm I'm
1:18:17
I'm always going by the designers intent
1:18:20
designers do not see uh imperfections in
1:18:23
their finished car they want them to be
1:18:26
absolutely perfect but um collectors go
1:18:29
into numbers and they go I I never got
1:18:32
into that mindset
1:18:34
whatsoever um the big concors like
1:18:37
Amelia Island and Pebble Beach I do not
1:18:40
understand that at all the fact that you
1:18:42
know I've had 61 years of experience in
1:18:45
this collector car business and I can
1:18:48
look at a car and I know absolutely
1:18:50
nothing about it even though I know a
1:18:52
lot about it so how can these guys that
1:18:55
they got a suit on and a hat and they
1:18:57
got a clipboard and they're going to be
1:18:59
judging the quality of your restoration
1:19:01
to me it's just Madness I just don't get
1:19:04
it you know so that's a thing that's
1:19:07
part of the value of the cars you know
1:19:09
if they win Pebble beats they're worth
1:19:11
more or something I don't know so when
1:19:13
you see coach Builders working either
1:19:16
Solo or or or small shops or even some
1:19:18
of the larger shops with bigger brand
1:19:20
names I mean when you think about the
1:19:22
way that they're building cars and the
1:19:23
way that they're coach building do you
1:19:24
see see that as a concern based on the
1:19:27
current economics of the industry or or
1:19:28
how do you see that well it's it's you
1:19:30
can make a living but you can't make
1:19:33
anything more than just a living you
1:19:34
can't build a business the real estate
1:19:37
business you have to follow the
1:19:38
fundamentals of what the interest rates
1:19:41
are what the land prices are what the
1:19:43
material costs are how much your
1:19:45
employees are going to cost you but
1:19:47
there's no problem or there's less
1:19:49
problems getting an
1:19:51
employee and um you know as the prices
1:19:54
go up everybody gets acclimated to the
1:19:56
higher price and you can expand your
1:19:59
business so uh if you wanted to become a
1:20:02
real estate U owner of a hundred
1:20:05
apartment buildings you could you know
1:20:07
my landlord started when he was like 18
1:20:10
and he owns like literally hundreds and
1:20:13
hundreds of acres of land and he does
1:20:16
very very good he's like eight months
1:20:17
older than me I think he hits 74 now um
1:20:20
and he owns like four industrial pars
1:20:24
and he invest he he he nourishes and
1:20:26
invests in a lot of his tenants and and
1:20:30
people that buy buildings from him so
1:20:32
one example is ipg ipg uh was started by
1:20:37
this guy Valentin who was a Russian who
1:20:39
came immigrated from I it might have
1:20:42
been it might have been after the Soviet
1:20:44
Union collapsed and he had Laser
1:20:47
Technology in his head and he he he came
1:20:50
to this area because in this area we
1:20:52
have a thing called American Optical
1:20:54
which was found in like
1:20:55
1880 and and they were like the first
1:20:58
mass American
1:21:00
Mass um mass produced maker of uh
1:21:05
eyeglasses right so they had a lot of
1:21:08
optical engineers and stuff at at AO and
1:21:11
because of that there was the like dozen
1:21:13
spin-off companies around in the area
1:21:17
and and one of them is laser and um this
1:21:20
guy Valentin came over and he needed a
1:21:23
space and he needed funding and my
1:21:26
landlord uh came up with like a 100
1:21:28
Grand himself and got a 100 Grand from
1:21:31
10 of his nine of his friends that was
1:21:34
the first million dollars of seed money
1:21:36
and I think my landlord still has that
1:21:38
stock which is the premium grade stock
1:21:41
you know the company is now a billion
1:21:43
dollar company it's on the New York
1:21:44
stocking chain and they make these ipg
1:21:47
laser welders which are $30,000 and
1:21:51
maybe 35 with all the bells and whistles
1:21:54
and and that's the new thing that's
1:21:55
going to make a big difference in the
1:21:57
craft is the welding quality will go up
1:21:59
I believe and I'm going to get a chance
1:22:01
to use one of those pretty soon it
1:22:03
should are you familiar with the tech
1:22:05
and and the way that it works yet or
1:22:07
it's are you familiar with the
1:22:08
technology and the way that it works or
1:22:09
is no just just watching videos that's
1:22:12
it I've seen a bunch of videos and it
1:22:15
seem seems to be the way to go so I've
1:22:17
got a potential job coming on that's an
1:22:20
aluminum boat job it's a 48t boat and
1:22:24
he's going to buy he he he brought it up
1:22:26
he says I'm buying ipg welder so I'm
1:22:29
going with him and go test it out to
1:22:31
make sure we can weld this aluminum
1:22:33
alloy he's getting which is a salt
1:22:35
resistant alloy so um I I would love to
1:22:40
have a Shop full of scratch buil cars
1:22:43
but I just don't get anybody calling or
1:22:45
knocking on my door to build a four to
1:22:48
$600,000 Bild I I am doing a build right
1:22:52
now of a Ferrari for a guy in Florida
1:22:55
and I'm doing it basically for peanuts U
1:22:58
but um it's you know I can replicate
1:23:01
that job and that will lead to something
1:23:03
and it's really fun doing it it's it's a
1:23:06
a GT Ferrari GTO but it's a 330 which
1:23:10
was the the last run of the gto's last
1:23:13
five I think where and this one was a
1:23:16
oneoff it's got 102 inch wheel base so
1:23:19
it's made as a passenger car not a race
1:23:22
car so give you better a better space
1:23:26
room for your legs and uh less heat
1:23:29
concentration in the cabin and uh with
1:23:32
102 inch wheelbase you get a better ride
1:23:35
and it's the the proportions are better
1:23:37
it's a much better looking car we're
1:23:39
building the chassis first I have an
1:23:42
employee that's building the chassis I
1:23:43
consult with him and next step is going
1:23:46
to be doing the wire form on that and
1:23:48
doing the panels yeah and I'm thinking I
1:23:51
was going to use 063 to do the panels
1:23:54
but my friend Solace um um he he he does
1:23:57
uh that series two cobras yeah he's
1:24:01
probably one of the best guys on the
1:24:03
planet he's a super perfectionist if you
1:24:05
seen his work it's just mind-blowing how
1:24:07
good it is he told me he's using 080 and
1:24:11
I've used the 080 and I just had some
1:24:13
students from um uh RM restoration up in
1:24:18
in Canada come down and they would use
1:24:21
an 080 so and and 080 moves pretty easy
1:24:25
if you need to you can enal it so I
1:24:27
might do that body in aluminum Ian in
1:24:30
aluminum y80 is it because it gives you
1:24:32
file room if you need a file you file
1:24:34
room it's not that more difficult with
1:24:37
177,000 thicker it gives you that little
1:24:40
bit extra and U you know it's a little
1:24:43
difficult to to wire Edge it but you
1:24:45
still can wire Edge it not too hard by
1:24:48
hand you know um so
1:24:52
uh build than the Ferrari I haven't
1:24:55
publicized it all because I don't want
1:24:58
uh a phone call from a lawyer saying no
1:25:00
you can't do that or something like that
1:25:03
and I don't know if you followed the
1:25:04
case of the the guy in Sweden uh who
1:25:07
built a a seat type Jag he always wanted
1:25:10
one his lifelong Jag guy yeah and he
1:25:13
built a SE type Jag and then Jaguar went
1:25:16
after him yeah and they haven't they
1:25:18
haven't done that to anybody else but
1:25:20
they've changed hands a bunch of times I
1:25:22
don't know who initiated it but they
1:25:23
went after this guy he was just you know
1:25:25
maybe an upper middle class guy he had a
1:25:27
million dollars worth of assets he had
1:25:29
to use all his assets to fight Jaguar
1:25:32
right he ended up winning in court but
1:25:34
I'm sure it was a fic Victory because he
1:25:36
lost like two years worth of of his time
1:25:39
and and I'm sure it was not a profitable
1:25:41
deal in any way for him so you know in
1:25:45
Mercedes I've heard many stories of uh
1:25:48
if you bring a Mercedes that's a replica
1:25:50
into Germany they find it they'll crush
1:25:52
it oh yeah so you know they'll go after
1:25:55
you so you know I'd love to do icon cars
1:25:58
and replicate them and I'm doing it with
1:26:00
the GTO but uh it's not going to be my
1:26:04
car um but if you do I I discovered AI
1:26:08
design that's right and I've been on the
1:26:11
AI design kick for about eight months
1:26:13
now I started I think about November or
1:26:16
so at first I had Mark do it because
1:26:18
Mach knew how to run the Mach is my uh
1:26:21
office employee and he does General work
1:26:23
around the shop andu and he's really
1:26:24
good with computers um and I I went off
1:26:28
on that tangent of the AI design and I
1:26:31
said this is the this is the coolest
1:26:33
thing that ever came down the pike and I
1:26:35
mean some of the AI designs are horrible
1:26:37
if you see the initial output that it
1:26:39
sends to you it's all in the cloud and
1:26:42
you you you tell it what you want and it
1:26:44
you know I can I can do 40 designs in a
1:26:47
matter of like minutes yeah and of the
1:26:50
40 designs I only get one or two that
1:26:54
any value the rest of them are really
1:26:56
horrible the proportions are off they're
1:26:58
just really bizarre stuff but then I've
1:27:01
learned how to run the program I had
1:27:02
Mack using the program for like two
1:27:04
months and and it was all through
1:27:06
Discord which is a social media site I
1:27:09
didn't understand why it did why that
1:27:11
but we started using it so much they
1:27:13
made us Alpha uses so now we use it
1:27:16
right on uh mid Journey's um page and
1:27:20
it's pretty simple to use it's not it's
1:27:22
not difficult in any way so when you go
1:27:25
when you go in and do this like for for
1:27:26
an onlooker they see something that
1:27:27
you're posting on your Facebook right
1:27:29
they say oh nice beautiful car so on the
1:27:31
back end how does it actually look when
1:27:33
you're telling the computer I would like
1:27:35
a I would like a roadster of this type
1:27:37
of era like how do how do you prompt
1:27:39
yeah you just write in stuff like that
1:27:41
and you never you don't know what you're
1:27:42
gonna get and the funny thing is if you
1:27:45
do like I do sometimes 20 sometimes not
1:27:48
too often but I can do 40 at a time I'll
1:27:51
do 20 and there might one in the
1:27:55
beginning and one in the end why on the
1:27:57
beginning and end I don't know but I I'm
1:28:00
beginning to believe that I'm I'm one of
1:28:03
their power users yeah I can't imagine
1:28:06
anybody who uses mid Journey more than
1:28:08
me because I've literally done hundreds
1:28:10
of thousands of designs hundreds of
1:28:14
thousands and I I might have got a
1:28:17
thousand Keepers now right right right
1:28:19
and I'm I'm building a library and I'm
1:28:22
trying to monetize it so I'm going to
1:28:24
try to sell prints and it might be
1:28:26
unsuccessful I don't know but the next
1:28:28
step is to get 3D files so you can you
1:28:32
can uh 3D print them and 3D printing of
1:28:37
them U you can you could 3D print a buck
1:28:40
if you have a big enough 3D printer yeah
1:28:42
or or if you're doing it in scale and
1:28:45
you know it came to the realization I
1:28:47
mean somebody actually mentioned boy I'd
1:28:48
like to make models of these you know
1:28:50
and it kind of went in one ear and out
1:28:51
the other but you know after a while I
1:28:54
says man modeling is way way to go you
1:28:57
know and it also factors into the time
1:28:59
we're at is that you know one of the
1:29:02
great things about my classes I got all
1:29:04
this feedback from people I had people
1:29:05
all over the world take my class and
1:29:08
they would tell me that you can't do you
1:29:10
can't build a scratch build car in
1:29:12
Europe you can't build a scratch Bill
1:29:14
car here or there in Australia New
1:29:17
Zealand they just won't let you do it
1:29:19
right so um there's so many limitations
1:29:22
and the government limitations are
1:29:24
getting ramped up more and more and more
1:29:27
and it's going to be here we can do
1:29:29
stuff and you can actually make 400 cars
1:29:32
a year that do not have to pass crash
1:29:34
testing because of SEMA semer lobbied uh
1:29:38
the Congress for years and years and
1:29:40
years and got that legislation passed
1:29:42
about five or six years ago yeah that
1:29:44
you can make 400 cars as a small
1:29:46
producer you have to have the emissions
1:29:49
of the motor that you put into it but it
1:29:51
doesn't have to pass uh crash now as far
1:29:54
as the liability if you scratch build a
1:29:56
car I think the liability is on you if
1:29:58
you sell it yeah so you have to have
1:30:01
some kind of long-term liability you
1:30:04
know some kind of U written agreement
1:30:06
between the buyer and seller too but
1:30:08
those don't hold water generally but the
1:30:11
best thing to do is make the damn thing
1:30:12
safe you know so if you're gonna scratch
1:30:16
with the car you make it safe so you
1:30:19
know I would love to spend the rest of
1:30:21
my days scratch building cars and I put
1:30:23
up like all these designs on on Facebook
1:30:26
and I expected you know a phone call
1:30:28
here and here I've had two phone calls
1:30:31
yeah and both of them were not real they
1:30:34
they they basically didn't understand
1:30:37
the process and all the cost of it and
1:30:39
stuff so I mean to to hire somebody to
1:30:42
build the car for you H depending on the
1:30:45
complexity it's a
1:30:47
$400,000 minimum maybe 300 yeah it
1:30:51
depends on if it's a simple design it's
1:30:53
so you know no fenders it's a Indie
1:30:56
Roadster or something like that you can
1:30:58
maybe do that for 200,000 right but if
1:31:01
you're doing a a really long wheel-based
1:31:03
car with a real elaborate leather
1:31:05
interior and fancy wheels and everything
1:31:08
else it could be5 $600,000 which the
1:31:11
paint's expensive all the materials are
1:31:13
expensive so what about what about
1:31:15
reskinning an existing car taking you
1:31:18
know BMW Z3 or a Miata or something like
1:31:21
this and there's a guy Jim Simpson that
1:31:24
I met he called me and introduced him
1:31:27
I've seen his work on Facebook and he's
1:31:29
been doing that for years right he uses
1:31:32
meatus and he he's done aluminum bodies
1:31:35
and he might have done steel bodies too
1:31:37
but he prefers fiberglass because the
1:31:40
price point of the finished product is
1:31:42
low enough yeah so he promly does
1:31:45
fiberglass which he's not happy with but
1:31:47
that's and I I really don't want to
1:31:49
swallow that that plateful I don't like
1:31:52
fiberglass and I don't want want to work
1:31:54
around the limitations of the existing
1:31:56
chassis I want to build my own chassis
1:31:59
which is a whole odd form in itself
1:32:01
right and you know I that that's still
1:32:04
to be explored to me uh and and U you
1:32:07
can learn a ton but I don't think I'm
1:32:09
gonna get get the chance to do it
1:32:11
because um you got to find that customer
1:32:14
that's willing to spend to
1:32:17
$600,000 and that translates sometimes
1:32:19
into he's going to come up with you know
1:32:21
30 to $50,000 every month for years or
1:32:24
whatever to pay for that car and it's a
1:32:27
it's a crapshoot for him if he buys a
1:32:30
Dave kig Corvette that's made of
1:32:32
fiberglass you've seen those they making
1:32:35
a series of 53 coets he's getting like
1:32:38
$500,000 for them at auction and they're
1:32:42
done really well everything K dig does
1:32:44
is really well but the aluminum one that
1:32:47
they just did that won the Ridler I I
1:32:49
heard the number $3 million bandied
1:32:51
around building that yeah well if you've
1:32:54
got a $3 million budget I mean I I I
1:32:57
could train somebody who's an absolute
1:32:59
new newbie to make a product as good as
1:33:02
what kindy could do if you got that kind
1:33:04
of budget so it's all about the budget
1:33:07
more so than the skill sets or the shop
1:33:09
or anything else if you you've got a
1:33:11
budget you can make things happen so and
1:33:15
I go ahead in your opinion what's more
1:33:17
important the design or the
1:33:19
fabrication um I think the design is
1:33:21
more important than anything the design
1:33:24
has to be superb and I think a lot of
1:33:27
people uh you know want to scratch build
1:33:29
cars or even hot rod projects that are
1:33:32
not up to the up the snuff and that's
1:33:35
what Italians you can learn so much from
1:33:37
the Italians they didn't compromise on
1:33:40
the design now there's some flub Italian
1:33:43
designs there's a few of them I've seen
1:33:45
through the years they're just horrible
1:33:46
beasts but most Italian designs I mean
1:33:49
you could spend all day just looking at
1:33:51
little details I had a off osar you
1:33:54
familiar with Oscar at all no I'm not at
1:33:57
my shop down to Connecticut a local
1:34:00
restorer Gary Co he had a customer had
1:34:03
one of these Oscars Oscar was the name
1:34:06
of a comp Italian company there was the
1:34:09
Maserati Brothers it was like four or
1:34:11
five Maserati Brothers the started
1:34:13
Maserati and they weren't good
1:34:15
businessmen and they got into trouble
1:34:18
and they worked for the new owner they
1:34:20
had to sell it to a wealthy
1:34:22
industrialist and they advised them and
1:34:24
stuff and then after they got their
1:34:26
seven-year Freedom after working for the
1:34:28
new owner they started Oscar when then
1:34:31
they made Passenger cars they made race
1:34:33
cars they unbelievably nice cars right
1:34:36
and nice designs and U they didn't make
1:34:38
the bodies I forget who made the bodies
1:34:42
uh but U there was like a 1960 Oscar or
1:34:45
something he brought down the shop and I
1:34:47
was just blown away I I'm really
1:34:49
familiar with how dusenberg is put
1:34:51
together I know and that was stamped and
1:34:54
you know uh really Advanced methods
1:34:57
whereas the Italians used a lot of
1:35:00
handwork they didn't have the money for
1:35:02
that stuff so they had a beautiful tube
1:35:03
frame chassis and you could just look at
1:35:06
every little bracket and the job that
1:35:08
that bracket was doing to me that has
1:35:10
much as important as the shape of the
1:35:12
fender right you know so the whole
1:35:15
picture the frame the way the motor is
1:35:18
put in there the balance of the car all
1:35:20
that is so important and um that's this
1:35:24
is the enticing and intoxicating thing
1:35:26
of building your own car and all of my
1:35:29
classes I've really tried to tell people
1:35:31
oh forget about that 32 Ford You're
1:35:33
Building you're only building that
1:35:35
because you saw it in a magazine right
1:35:37
build something really cool like the
1:35:39
Italians did you know and a few of them
1:35:42
have it's gone through and I've got
1:35:44
probably about a dozen of my students
1:35:47
that have built some amazing cars and um
1:35:50
you know I think that's the fun part
1:35:52
because this is ultimately is a hobby
1:35:55
yeah but you it's a hobby that you want
1:35:57
to try to not be uh cash negative you
1:36:00
want to be cash positive that's right
1:36:02
and you can be cash positive you know
1:36:05
and there there's people like Chris
1:36:06
rungi uh who is a great example of
1:36:10
somebody with a lot of ambition and
1:36:12
really good marketing skills didn't know
1:36:14
anything and he started out he was
1:36:17
fearless and he's built I don't know 14
1:36:20
cars now or something and his quality
1:36:23
huh Chris was on the show he was a
1:36:25
terrific guest oh I haven't seen that
1:36:27
interview yet yeah so he's he's uh made
1:36:30
some really nice looking cars and he's
1:36:32
in a really good Market the Porsche
1:36:34
Market that's one of the best markets so
1:36:37
um I had the same idea uh of doing that
1:36:41
making a series of cars but I I didn't
1:36:43
know how I I don't have any marketing
1:36:45
skills whatsoever absolute zero so he's
1:36:49
very good at marketing you know and he's
1:36:52
younger uh he's got a really good
1:36:54
situation and he's now he's got family
1:36:57
that's helping out his son is helping
1:36:58
him out yeah I have two sons one's not
1:37:01
interested when I do the other son's
1:37:02
autistic so I never had any family other
1:37:06
than my wife my wife handles the books
1:37:08
and and does the sales of all the stuff
1:37:10
we make the shrinking disc and English
1:37:12
real stuff and stuff but um it's it
1:37:16
contrasts quite a bit from one my
1:37:18
grandfather's and my grandfather's he
1:37:20
had a lot of family members working at
1:37:24
at the at the shop you know and that
1:37:26
that made a big difference if you can
1:37:27
have family members you know um so um
1:37:32
the economics of it uh it's really a
1:37:35
tough sledding to try to build a series
1:37:38
like Chris rungy us doing uh I think
1:37:41
he's successful at it and maybe he's
1:37:43
making good money more power to him um
1:37:46
he's using AI design and some of his
1:37:48
stuff now it's the way to go uh it's a
1:37:51
creativity and a productivity tool and I
1:37:55
get really kind of myed and pissed at
1:37:58
the comments that I get on Facebook
1:38:00
because people are so insensitive it's
1:38:03
just I can't believe you know didn't
1:38:05
their mothers tell them that you don't
1:38:07
have something good to say don't
1:38:09
say so I mean I put these designs I have
1:38:12
I think I have a really good eye because
1:38:15
I've looked at cars for all these years
1:38:17
and I've looked at the top end of cars
1:38:19
and uh I I come up with some pretty good
1:38:21
signs and I know okay I could make it
1:38:23
better but I don't want to spend two
1:38:26
hours on each design that I because I
1:38:28
can't do it I can't afford to do that I
1:38:30
know I can make it better so I put it up
1:38:32
and they go oh the wheel's too close to
1:38:34
the to the fender it's G to rub no
1:38:37
you
1:38:38
know and these not build plans when I'm
1:38:42
putting up I'm putting up a concept plan
1:38:44
concept yeah it's an image it's it's a
1:38:46
stimulator it it's to get your juices
1:38:49
flowing all right so if you're going to
1:38:51
build it you have to make all all the
1:38:53
little Corrections because building a
1:38:56
car is a packaging problem it has to be
1:38:59
structurally sound but you have to
1:39:01
package all the components that are
1:39:03
going to go into it and today if you're
1:39:06
going to build a car and you're going to
1:39:07
charge $400,000 for it it's got to run
1:39:10
and drive really nice so that means you
1:39:13
don't want a vintage experience you
1:39:15
don't want oil leaks you don't want uh
1:39:18
you know all the the problems associated
1:39:20
with the earlier cars you want it to be
1:39:22
super dependable
1:39:24
and uh that that means you have to
1:39:26
factor all that in and so it's a big
1:39:29
complex problem to make a car but on a
1:39:33
beautiful problem so I see the economy
1:39:37
the way it is now is the economy in the
1:39:40
US is is definitely on the downswing the
1:39:43
inflation rate is is is not is not a
1:39:46
good thing it's uh it worked for the car
1:39:48
collecting back in the 70s I saw it
1:39:50
happen at my grandfather's because
1:39:52
people would
1:39:54
buy a stuts and then they'd restore it
1:39:57
and it cost so much but by the time the
1:40:00
stuts was done one or two years later
1:40:02
depending on how fast he wanted it done
1:40:03
other shop it had it had appreciated in
1:40:06
value because of the inflation and the
1:40:10
hurt of restoring the car didn't hurt as
1:40:13
much so even though it was illusionary
1:40:16
there's the value in in a in a collector
1:40:19
car is uh there's most of it is
1:40:22
inflation
1:40:24
and and some of it is a core value and
1:40:27
that you know collectors are are at the
1:40:29
top of the pyramid only going to collect
1:40:31
cars that have core values meaning they
1:40:35
were very rare to begin with uh they
1:40:38
highly desirable because of the
1:40:40
mechanics and the Aesthetics of them
1:40:43
yeah and um you know those are the ones
1:40:45
that are worth a lot of money they have
1:40:47
provenant they were involved in a race
1:40:49
they had a wealthy owner in the past
1:40:52
well that's one of the question marks of
1:40:54
AI design cars are they going to have
1:40:58
any value but you have the example of
1:41:00
Chris R's been so I've been heard he's
1:41:03
getting like 300,000 bucks for his cars
1:41:05
which is a good little number it's a
1:41:07
small wheel-based car maybe he's making
1:41:09
some money there I don't know uh and
1:41:11
then uh kend dig is getting 500,000 for
1:41:14
these fiberglass corette but that's a TV
1:41:17
show TV show is crazy you know it it
1:41:21
pumps the numbers up like unbelievable
1:41:23
able so um it doesn't mean that you know
1:41:26
more if you have a TV show it just means
1:41:28
you have a TV show and and you're
1:41:31
finances are a lot better if you have a
1:41:33
TV show especially has it has longevity
1:41:35
like kcks had so it gets um a regular
1:41:39
what do they call it syndicated when it
1:41:42
gets syndicated uh you can make a lot of
1:41:44
money and I think it's five years or so
1:41:46
before it get syndicated or 200 episodes
1:41:49
or something like that yeah which is
1:41:52
that's a hot threshold AC cross too you
1:41:54
know so there's been a lot of failure TV
1:41:56
shows I I've entertained the idea of
1:41:58
having a TV show but no opportuni ever
1:42:01
presented themselves either you know so
1:42:04
yeah this has been uh this has been a
1:42:06
lot of fun just to be able to have a
1:42:08
conversation with you for you know for
1:42:10
the last little while and your your
1:42:12
knowledge is so vast and so deep and
1:42:13
that's one of the things that I always
1:42:14
respected about you was that you knew
1:42:16
where we've gone right and then you've
1:42:18
taken that history and you've said okay
1:42:19
how can I adapt it to Modern Times And
1:42:21
even coming from you know the of the
1:42:23
duesenbergs and and boat Restorations
1:42:26
and so forth up to today where you can
1:42:28
sit in your office and Hammer out 40 AI
1:42:30
designs of beautiful
1:42:32
cars in a micr second it's that's
1:42:35
amazing and you've adopted that tech and
1:42:37
and you know you brought it in and and
1:42:39
and it's really incredible so for me to
1:42:41
you thank you so much for being on the
1:42:42
show it's been a it's been a TR where
1:42:44
can people find out more about you and
1:42:46
what you're doing with proch shaper well
1:42:48
I have uh three websites um we have a
1:42:51
new website which is only about 1% done
1:42:54
uh Mark makes the websites and it's for
1:42:57
selling uh t-shirts and prints of my uh
1:43:01
AI design cars that's called uh
1:43:05
designbuild
1:43:07
drive.com and then I also have uh www
1:43:11
Pros shaper.int
1:43:23
my YouTube channel which is ww
1:43:28
youtube.com proshaper and I have 315
1:43:32
videos and I've been away from my
1:43:35
YouTube videos for like six weeks or so
1:43:37
now because I'm doing this architectural
1:43:40
job which is eating up all my time and
1:43:43
after I get that done then I I gotta get
1:43:45
back to the video and I'm doing an AI
1:43:48
Alpha Romeo design I'm wire forming it
1:43:51
the way the Italians would do it and I
1:43:54
think it's the the most fun but I think
1:43:57
AI is going to within two years maybe in
1:44:01
a year you there'll be AI not might not
1:44:04
be mid Journey but there'll be another
1:44:06
company that'll start up because
1:44:08
literally a trillion dollars is going to
1:44:10
go into AI uh development and an AI
1:44:14
company will will appear that will put
1:44:17
out a cad drawing and so you basically
1:44:20
put in all your your verbal prompt and
1:44:23
then your Dimensions that you want the
1:44:25
color you just totally Define the thing
1:44:28
and it'll spit out a 3D revolve CAD
1:44:31
model which you can do anything you want
1:44:33
with that's a build model and then then
1:44:36
it can get modified probably with the
1:44:38
program too because everything you build
1:44:40
the first time or or the first concept
1:44:44
is got a lot of problems that need to be
1:44:46
amended so uh I think AI holds the the
1:44:49
greatest promise but um it's a
1:44:52
productivity in a creativity tool and
1:44:55
and anybody that's in the business
1:44:56
should be playing with it and anybody
1:44:59
wants to build one of my designs can go
1:45:01
on and look at my my designs on Facebook
1:45:04
uh and and and copy one of them there's
1:45:06
no copyright infringement or anything
1:45:09
like that um but now I'm I'm attempting
1:45:12
to have a company make a 3D file and I'm
1:45:17
really interested in especially if the
1:45:19
economy crunches up really bad building
1:45:22
models creates a price point that
1:45:24
everybody can afford so uh you know
1:45:28
there's been some really famous modelers
1:45:30
that have made classic cars through the
1:45:31
years I can't remember their names off
1:45:33
the top of my head but they've done
1:45:35
these superb jobs where they use brass
1:45:38
and they hand Hammer all the fenders and
1:45:40
the body and they make they make the
1:45:42
motors and it's just unbelievable you
1:45:44
know there thousand hours in them or
1:45:46
more and uh all those skill sets are
1:45:48
exact same skill sets you would do if
1:45:50
you were building the C full scale so
1:45:53
modeling brings the price point down
1:45:55
quite a bit I could teach classes on how
1:45:58
to do that over over the Internet so I
1:46:01
think you know I'm going to evolve with
1:46:04
AI and uh Furniture holds a lot of
1:46:07
appeel to me too you don't have to worry
1:46:09
about Road worthiness with furniture and
1:46:11
stuff so uh I don't know how many more
1:46:13
years I get my retirement plan is my
1:46:15
last hotbeat
1:46:18
so I love to work I mean I work from 900
1:46:21
in the morning to 11 o'clock every
1:46:23
single day seven days a week so it it's
1:46:26
it's fun you know so awesome awesome
1:46:30
well happy this how to make money at it
1:46:32
that's the question that's the question
1:46:34
well happy Independence Day uh thanks
1:46:36
for tuning in to the sheet metal shaping
1:46:38
podcast don't forget to like share
1:46:39
follow And subscribe and we will see you
1:46:41
on the next episode