Up next in 10
On Episode 44 of the "Sheet Metal Shaping Podcast" https://www.youtube.com/@UCJt8IGCF0RrENWZ86uGePgQ
Wray Schelin from Proshaper workshop in Charlton, Massachusetts
In this episode we chat what's new with Ai in the automotive industry
We also discuss:
Ai engineering
Resto vs new builds
Changing demographics in automotive hobby
MidJourney AI Software
Everything in Ai is derivative from something else
Growing up with cars from the 30’s
Wrays Favourite Car
Creating incredible designs by the thousands
Nano Banana
The better the information, the easier the build
Hum3D plans vs in-person scans
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We're live, baby. All right. Thanks for
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tuning in to the Sheet Metal Shaping
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Podcast where we discuss the pursuit of
0:04
sheet metal shaping education through
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traditional coach building techniques.
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My guest today on the show for the
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second time, round two, Ray Shalene, all
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the way from Pro Shaper in
0:12
Massachusetts. Hello, Ray. How are you?
0:14
Hi, Brian. Good to talk to you. Always
0:16
good to talk to you. Good to Good to see
0:18
you from a from a distance.
0:20
>> [laughter]
0:21
[gasps]
0:21
>> So, we got a laundry list of things to
0:23
cover tonight. Everybody that's followed
0:25
YouTube or the sheet metal any of the
0:27
sheet metal platforms on YouTube most
0:29
definitely knows certainly knows who you
0:30
are.
0:31
Pro Shaper, you're doing all kinds of
0:34
amazing stuff down there. And today,
0:36
we're here for round two. We're going to
0:37
talk about a myriad of subjects. So,
0:38
topics to cover for tonight. AI
0:40
engineering, we're going to touch on
0:41
this. You post a lot about AI both in
0:44
designs and about engineering in the way
0:45
that the new tech rolls out. So, we're
0:47
going to talk about that. Number two is
0:48
restoration versus rebuilding new,
0:51
right? Are we taking old? Are we
0:52
building from scratch? What do we do?
0:54
And then lastly is demographics. There's
0:56
been some demographics changing Yeah.
0:58
>> in all of these
1:00
hobbies and and business fronts and so
1:01
forth. So, we'll talk about demographics
1:03
with respect to cars and how those are
1:05
shaking out
1:06
as of current as well. So, number one,
1:08
AI engineering.
1:10
What do you know about AI engineering?
1:11
What's What's the latest and greatest
1:13
that you've seen? You're You're pretty
1:14
in tune with this stuff. Yeah, and I I
1:16
watch a lot of YouTube shows
1:18
and to to do with AI and I find it
1:21
really fascinating.
1:23
And it was it's actually Mark all the
1:25
time that gets me going on all this
1:27
stuff because uh Mark got me started
1:30
with Midjourney, you know, and I had no
1:31
clue, you know? It's like uh I'm always
1:34
a follower. I'm not a leader on this
1:36
stuff at all. So, but if I get in
1:39
interested in I'll dive into it as much
1:41
as I can.
1:43
So, I I started playing with Midjourney
1:46
and I found it fascinating.
1:48
And um
1:50
the way it worked was Midjourney had
1:52
some editing tools and you you throw up
1:55
a prompt and uh it would design a a car
1:59
for you and you say, "Oh, boy, that's
2:00
terrible." And then you have
2:02
the ability to circle with Midjournal
2:05
Midjourney every little area that you
2:07
don't like and you can tell it, "I don't
2:09
like the front and all that." And and
2:10
it'll change it.
2:12
And that was all cool and I I I spent
2:16
about a year playing with Midjourney
2:18
designing cars and I think I think I
2:20
probably designed at least a million
2:22
cars.
2:23
And of the million, probably two or 300
2:26
that I would consider that a really good
2:28
designs. Like the 1% of the 1%. Yeah,
2:32
and and um
2:34
you know, this is this is, you know,
2:35
part of AI engineering in a sense
2:38
because you have to have a design for
2:39
something.
2:41
And and people misunderstand that AI
2:43
design whole thing. They They want they
2:46
They say, "Oh, it's all derivative."
2:48
Well, everything is derivative, really,
2:51
because if you if you are a student at a
2:55
design center school like Art Art Center
2:57
or something, um you're going to be
3:00
thinking of all that came before.
3:03
And if you if you design something
3:05
that's really super radical, everybody
3:08
will just hate it to get begin with. So,
3:10
you have to have something within these
3:13
parameters of established uh
3:16
uh norms. And um
3:19
and and and you can go forward and with
3:23
your designs to make them look like
3:26
supercars and stuff like the the latest
3:28
Ferrari or the Bugatti or something like
3:31
that. And and I don't particularly like
3:33
that kind of car. Mhm. So, um I mean, I
3:36
like them. They're beautiful and I'm I'm
3:38
sure they're great to drive, but um it
3:41
doesn't really appeal to me. I like
3:43
smaller cars. Mhm. I like I like uh the
3:47
Europeans I think have the best uh
3:51
design
3:53
uh that that you can really follow,
3:55
which is from the
3:57
late '30s or '50s, '60s and then it
4:01
loses me a little bit. There's There's
4:03
exceptions everywhere. Sure. Um the size
4:06
of the car like a Corvette is a really
4:08
good size car.
4:10
And uh
4:11
>> Corvette or an old Corvette? Uh
4:13
uh the older Corvettes. Yeah, they're
4:15
like a '63 uh mid mid midyear Corvette
4:18
or something.
4:19
And and I think that, you know, in
4:20
sports cars is what turns me on as far
4:23
as the design goes. So, that's a lot of
4:25
it. I try to do that, but I also like
4:28
the '30s big classics. So, I did a lot
4:31
of those. And the big classics mean
4:33
Packards and Pierce-Arrows and
4:35
Duesenbergs and Hispano-Suizas and all
4:38
that. Um that I like that. I grew up
4:40
with that. Those are kinds of cars I we
4:42
restored at my grandfather's and and I
4:44
identified with them, but If you could
4:47
drive any car if you could drive any
4:48
car, a daily driver and weather is not
4:51
an issue, what car would it be?
4:53
Um it would be a smaller car, you know,
4:55
one of the the cars I own myself that I
4:57
had the most fun with driving was a
5:00
little Alfa Romeo '67 Alfa Romeo Spider
5:03
Duetto. I bought it when I was like 20
5:05
years old. It was smashed up. I paid 400
5:07
bucks for it and I fixed it up. It was a
5:09
awesome car. Super small. I was 6'4" and
5:12
I could
5:13
>> going to say, you're so tall.
5:14
>> [laughter]
5:16
>> Yeah, so I could fit in it and and and
5:18
it was really uh you know, it had a
5:20
little four-cylinder thing, but 1,600
5:24
cc motor, I think, or it might have been
5:26
2,000. No, it's 1,600, I think.
5:28
And and it was peppy as hell. It was
5:30
responsive and fun to drive and and
5:32
comfortable and you know, that's that's
5:35
fun, you know? And uh
5:38
that
5:39
that's a a little bit smaller. I'd like
5:41
it to be a little bit bigger, but that
5:43
AI design stuff, you could create these
5:46
incredible designs and I posted them on
5:49
Facebook. And I'm a nut because I read
5:52
the comments and there's a AI contingent
5:55
out there that just hates everything to
5:57
do with any anything to do with AI.
5:59
Yeah. And I I think that it doesn't
6:02
matter what they think because it's it's
6:04
going to steamroller us anyways. So,
6:07
anyways, after about a year I I spent a
6:10
lot of time doing it, too. I says,
6:12
"Well, maybe I'll I'll lay low for a
6:14
while." So, I I laid low for about a
6:15
year. And then I noticed a guy on
6:18
Facebook was posting AI designs and just
6:21
so happens he was from Massachusetts,
6:23
too. And I contacted him.
6:25
And he was using this Nano Banana, which
6:27
is a Google uh AI design program. So,
6:32
I I went and ran in the deep end. I was
6:34
paying $127 a month, which is one of the
6:37
the premium for Midjourney.
6:40
>> [clears throat]
6:41
>> And I I just found the first source of
6:43
this Nano Banana and and it's not I
6:46
don't think it's directly from It's a
6:48
deal of that packages different programs
6:51
and I bought them. You buy so many
6:53
credits and you get to use so many
6:55
credits and I was running out of
6:56
credits, so I bought more credits. So, I
6:58
spent about $1,100
7:00
for a whole year. And and so, I started
7:03
playing with it. And now from
7:05
Midjourney, which I couldn't turn the
7:06
cars I if I wanted a side view, I'd get
7:09
a side view. It was hard to get a rear
7:11
view. It was hard to get a front view
7:12
and stuff. That's not too hard now with
7:15
Midjourney. So, in one year it's made a
7:17
big leap. Yeah. And I think in another
7:20
year it's going to make a bigger and
7:21
bigger leap. And and the next hope and
7:24
and the big bottleneck in
7:27
building your own car is the
7:29
information.
7:31
Yeah. Whether you're copying a car or
7:33
building your own car, the better the
7:35
information, the easier the task.
7:38
And uh if you've got like say you're
7:41
you've got a fiberglass uh '40s Willys
7:44
body or something and you're going to
7:46
copy that. Well, if that body was made
7:48
asymmetrical
7:50
and and it's lumpy and all that, um it's
7:53
very difficult to copy all those
7:55
surfaces. So, you're going to spend a
7:56
lot of time with it.
7:58
So, the information is so important. If
8:01
you can use AI to develop that
8:03
information.
8:04
And if you sub out that information,
8:07
what happened in in the internet deal is
8:10
that
8:11
uh Hum3D, which was a Ukrainian company,
8:14
Yeah. Yeah. they were pumping out these
8:16
these plans and we nobody knew how they
8:18
were doing it and it looked like they
8:20
had a team of guys or something because
8:22
they have, you know, thousands of
8:23
different plans for cars. And I bought a
8:26
couple of them. They were like somewhere
8:27
between 300 bucks and 700 bucks to buy
8:30
the plans. And I found out that they
8:32
weren't that good.
8:34
And and uh I think they're just doing it
8:37
from photos. They're not doing scans.
8:39
And if someone does a scan, the plan
8:41
package is very expensive. Yeah. So, I
8:44
was holding out the hope and and I
8:47
believe it's going to happen is that
8:49
these AI programs like Midjourney and
8:52
they're going to evolve to a point where
8:55
you can not only do the design, but
8:57
it'll do the engineering for you.
8:59
Meaning that
9:00
>> cut the car up and make a buck from it.
9:03
And all the stuff you can do in like
9:05
SolidWorks and Catia and stuff will all
9:08
be integrated into the design program at
9:11
some point. When that happens, you know,
9:13
everybody's Well, when when when when
9:15
are we going to get the the buck from
9:16
the thing? Well, it could be 6 months
9:18
from now. It could be a year from now. I
9:19
don't know. Well, if you look at the
9:21
jump from just from Midjourney to Nano
9:23
Banana, you're saying it's so much more
9:24
powerful versus
9:25
>> There's a big big big jump. Yeah, and
9:28
and this guy that I that I that I
9:31
learned from Nano Banana,
9:33
uh I've kind of slowed down on it myself
9:35
as I've been really busy and I've been
9:37
watching what he's doing and it's it's
9:38
amazing. He's been doing some really
9:40
really good stuff.
9:42
And it's funny that people don't
9:44
recognize it, you know, he put a really
9:46
good design up and he'll get
9:49
30 likes or something on it, you know,
9:51
and maybe a couple comments. Yeah. The
9:53
weirdest thing is these these young kids
9:55
that play with it and they do these
9:57
bizarro car designs that nobody would
10:00
ever build. And and they'll get the
10:02
crazy amount of of interest in it and
10:05
all kinds of likes and comments and all
10:07
this stuff. And they a lot of them
10:09
pretend to think that that it's a real
10:11
car that you know, Ferrari is going to
10:14
build or something. And you know,
10:15
they're very deceptive, which pisses off
10:17
a lot of people. Everybody says, "When
10:20
is this AI junk going to go away?" and
10:22
all this. So, there's a built-in AI
10:24
anti-AI contingent out there that just
10:28
has no clue what what AI is all about,
10:31
you know? It's kind of cool when
10:32
somebody young takes a piece of
10:33
technology
10:35
and [clears throat] sees it in a
10:35
different way that somebody not young
10:38
would otherwise use it. Because a person
10:39
coming in that's young that's never seen
10:41
that before, they're using it in a way
10:42
that that because it's all fresh, they
10:44
have nothing to go on, right? So, they
10:46
just kind of would it like they use
10:47
their own computing power of their mind
10:48
and say, "Hey, There's
10:50
a lot of them doing it, but they do it
10:52
in a deceptive way. They they tell this
10:54
is the new
10:56
Pontiac Fiero Pontiac Firebird or
10:59
something, you know, the 2027 Pontiac
11:02
Firebird. And and and I don't know why
11:04
they do that, but it seems to get good
11:06
results for them, so maybe that's why.
11:09
So, they're monetized maybe. Yeah.
11:12
Yeah. Yeah, what are your thoughts on
11:14
taking some of this software and
11:16
recreating something from the past? Do
11:18
you think that it's a copy? Do you think
11:19
that it's somewhat original because it
11:21
was derived in a different way? What are
11:22
your thoughts on that?
11:24
Say that again. I'm missing point on
11:26
that. Using the software to create
11:28
something historical.
11:30
What are your thoughts on that? All
11:31
right. So, doing a replica of a of
11:33
historical car. Yeah. So, yeah, you
11:35
could use the software.
11:37
Um say I want to design a GTO Ferrari or
11:41
something. You say, "Okay, design me a
11:43
GTO Ferrari." And then you you say, "Oh,
11:45
no, that's not exactly right. Here are
11:47
these." And you can upload pictures and
11:49
say, "This is what it really looks
11:50
like." And then and then okay, so then
11:53
we get to the point where it could throw
11:55
out engineering stuff. But then you you
11:58
you're at the point I copying existing
12:01
designs you always you know,
12:04
you you run
12:05
somebody else's intellectual property.
12:08
So, you got potential problems and I
12:11
That's one of the things about copying
12:13
an existing car that was designed by
12:16
somebody else. I I
12:18
I kind of don't like to do it, you know?
12:20
I mean, there's a lot of people that all
12:21
the Porsches have been copied, Ferraris
12:24
have been copied.
12:25
And and you hear the horror stories that
12:27
people get sued or the car got crushed
12:30
and all that stuff. And um you know, it
12:33
it's just like I
12:36
I'd rather do some original design
12:39
that's really outstanding. And in my
12:41
opinion, this this uh AI design can do
12:45
that. And and to have a unique one-off
12:48
car I think has an appeal in a sense to
12:51
some people, too. So, if you are you
12:53
doing it for your own self or are you
12:55
doing it to sell? That's the issue, too,
12:57
you know? So.
12:59
Why do you Why do you think Ferrari's
13:00
been so
13:02
expansive in their lawsuits against the
13:04
silhouettes of their vehicles? Do you
13:05
think it's What do you think it is? The
13:06
IP? What Why do you think that is?
13:09
Well, they they don't want junk
13:11
masquerading out there as their product,
13:13
you know? Because if they see something
13:15
that's built poorly
13:17
that might look okay, but it doesn't
13:19
perform right and and all that. It is
13:21
like, "Oh, that was a Ferrari." You
13:22
know? And
13:24
they I can see where they would be
13:26
they didn't want to be associated with
13:28
it, you know? It's like
13:30
If if you were this really successful
13:33
painter artist painter and you had this
13:36
style of painting and it was easily
13:38
copied any any of those painters can be
13:40
copied as well.
13:42
And then somebody starts copying your
13:44
stuff. And if
13:46
you'd be kind of pissed about it because
13:47
especially if they're making money on
13:49
it, you know? That's not my stuff, you
13:51
know? He's he's infringing on my
13:52
intellectual property. So.
13:55
It was interesting that they they they
13:57
got the I think I think the patent
13:59
patent or the copyright or something I
14:01
think is the name of what they call it,
14:02
but it was a silhouette. I heard that
14:04
they patented or copyrighted the
14:05
silhouette of the GTO. Yeah, and you you
14:08
can you know, you vary it I think by 5%
14:11
or 10% or something. And then they have
14:13
no legal rights after you vary it a
14:14
little bit.
14:16
But then the purists will say, "Oh,
14:17
that's just some stupid fiberglass
14:19
replica." Even though if it was made as
14:21
a perfect nut and bolt copy, you know?
14:23
And it might be 10% different on the the
14:26
measurements or something, you know? So,
14:28
it it's it just irks me
14:30
dealing with those purist owners of the
14:33
Ferraris
14:34
or any collector car that sees your
14:37
replica and dismisses it as a fake, you
14:41
know? So.
14:42
Um
14:43
Personally, I'd I'd rather be building
14:46
you know, one-off cars than doing any
14:49
restoration work. I I've never really
14:51
want to ever restore again. I've had my
14:53
fill of the restoring.
14:54
>> [laughter]
14:55
>> And so, going back to AI design,
14:58
um
14:59
it's going to evolve into higher degrees
15:03
of engineering.
15:05
So, that it'll produce better and better
15:07
stuff. And the market the market's going
15:10
to be there for it, you know? So.
15:12
Uh and and it'll make just about anybody
15:16
uh the potential to make furniture
15:19
you know, boats, cars, airplanes, you
15:22
name it, snowmobiles. One thing that's
15:24
interesting me now is this personal
15:25
aircraft. So, all that stuff could be
15:28
designed by makers. And you know, you
15:31
can technically build just about
15:33
anything in your two-car garage. You
15:34
can't build a yacht in a two-car garage,
15:36
but
15:37
you'd have to get a little bit bigger
15:38
building. But um that's I I think that's
15:41
the fun part is building something.
15:44
Yeah. And restoring is fun because you
15:47
the plan the information is already
15:49
there, but it's damaged. So, you have to
15:52
unpaint it. You have to unrust it. You
15:54
have to remove all the the abuse and
15:57
wear and tear.
15:59
And then bring it back to showroom
16:00
condition. And oftentimes the
16:02
restoration is better than it was
16:03
actually new.
16:05
You know, you get the cars like them a
16:06
lot of muscle cars. I grew up in that
16:09
era. And and the car I knew what the
16:11
cars looked like in the '60s and '70s
16:13
and early '70s when the the muscle cars
16:16
were really going strong. And they were
16:19
they were terrible. The fit and finish
16:21
on them was awful, you know? And the
16:23
cheap materials and you know, I just
16:25
hate leatherette. And I I just you know,
16:29
it just look
16:31
You know, because I I grew up with all
16:33
leather and stuff on the packages and
16:35
stuff, you know? Everything's done to
16:37
the teeth, you know? Because those cars
16:39
were made for the wealthy.
16:41
And they were done done to impress the
16:43
wealthy. And now, you know, you get like
16:45
a '68 whatever of Camaro whatever. And
16:50
you get in it and it's just this
16:52
black leather seats. And it not leather,
16:54
but leatherette, you know? And Naugahyde
16:57
we used to call it or
16:58
Yeah.
16:59
Yeah. What are your thoughts about using
17:01
What are your thoughts about using AI to
17:03
redesign bodies over existing platforms?
17:05
So, let's go there. Well, that's that's
17:07
that's another part of the engineering
17:09
potential. And I think that happens. So.
17:12
Um I think I was telling you in a phone
17:14
conversation I was just watching
17:16
something about um uh
17:19
uh Tesla. And and uh they were talking
17:22
about how they they have proprietary
17:25
software.
17:26
And they already have what what I'm
17:28
hoping that these existing uh AI
17:32
design companies that are
17:35
are trying to achieve. They Tesla
17:37
already has it. So, they they get
17:40
engineers that are top-line engineers.
17:43
And they're using the best software in
17:44
the world right now because they can
17:47
have hundreds of iterations of designs
17:50
of brackets or electric motors or
17:52
whatever. And the thing will test it and
17:55
and tell you whether it's not going to
17:57
work or it's going to work and stuff.
17:59
So,
18:00
and that's I think that's going to be
18:01
common in 5 years or so, you know?
18:05
And Sounds like Formula 1. Formula 1
18:07
always spends a ton of money, millions
18:08
of dollars to develop some component to
18:10
a car. Could be suspension, could be
18:13
some type of attraction control system,
18:14
it could be electronics, it could be
18:15
anything, right? Engines.
18:17
And then that trickles down into the
18:19
road cars somehow some way a few years
18:22
later. Tesla's doing something very
18:23
similar. If anybody seen any of the
18:25
iterations of the rocket rocket motors,
18:27
I'm not overly familiar with the rocket
18:28
motors, but I saw this picture. And like
18:31
5 years ago it was some crazy rocket
18:33
motor that was super complicated and
18:34
there was all the bells and whistles
18:35
hanging off this thing. And then 5 years
18:37
later they had redesigned it and it was
18:39
the simplest thing you'd ever seen. But
18:41
it did the it performed the same task
18:43
just way easier and way more economical,
18:44
right? It was amazing to see the
18:46
progression. And I'm sure AI was a big
18:47
tool in that. Yeah.
18:49
Yeah. Yeah.
18:51
Well, that's I they call that the the
18:52
Colin Chapman formula. And you know, it
18:54
was always make it simple as possible
18:56
and light as possible. And I I love that
18:59
that whole idea, you know?
19:01
If you're doing racing or
19:03
high-performance stuff.
19:04
If you're going to make a boulevard
19:06
cruiser, it doesn't matter so much, you
19:08
know? So.
19:10
So, I think the the engineering stuff is
19:12
is
19:13
it's people have no idea what's going to
19:15
happen in the next 5 years with the
19:17
capability that's going to that's going
19:19
to unfold.
19:21
And and it's just it's going to be
19:22
amazing. The problem is
19:25
that
19:26
we're going to talk about the
19:27
demographics as well is that the people
19:30
that are interested in cars I think
19:33
they're all dying off, you know? So, I
19:35
don't know. I just came back from the
19:36
Grand National Grand National Roadster
19:38
Show in California. Yeah.
19:40
And while I was there I had a chance to
19:41
meet a lot of wonderful people. And I
19:43
asked them, you know, different
19:44
questions about what I was looking at or
19:45
different cars that were out there, what
19:47
they're seeing in the market, different
19:48
trends. And almost unanimously a lot of
19:50
people were saying all the the late
19:52
'20s, early '30s, like the early Ford
19:54
crowd."
19:55
That's very much changing now, very much
19:57
because of people who had these cars,
19:59
like the deuce coupes of the of the era,
20:01
all of those generate they're aging out,
20:03
right? And the new generation isn't
20:05
picking up the slack. And gosh, I would
20:06
think for years cuz I've I've been
20:08
interested in those cars for 20 years.
20:09
I thought, "This is like this is the
20:11
bread and butter. This is the gold and
20:13
silver of the economy. This is like this
20:15
is the you know, this is it. The '32
20:17
coupe, this is it. The '34, the '31."
20:19
Like And now things are very much
20:21
changing. And I did not expect that. I
20:24
thought things would carry on into
20:25
another generation, but it's not. It's
20:27
it's really not, which is very
20:29
surprising to me.
20:30
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's like the music,
20:33
too, you know? The The kids the music is
20:35
the the
20:36
I I My My high school years were '65 to
20:38
'69. That was the best period of music
20:42
ever. And it was a lot of cool cars in
20:44
'65 to '69. Do you think it's subjective
20:47
because that was the era you're most
20:48
familiar with? I always wonder that.
20:50
Um
20:52
No, well, I'm I'm I know a lot of very
20:55
eras of the cars and and and the I look
20:59
at the quality and stuff, too, you know?
21:01
So
21:02
um
21:04
I don't know. I don't I mean, it might
21:06
my my first love is is is probably late
21:09
'30s. '35 to '39's the best years for
21:12
design. And then if you go to European
21:16
stuff,
21:17
um
21:17
and and and '35 to '39 and I was
21:20
European stuff, too, but a lot of
21:21
American stuff was really cool '35 to
21:24
'39. Yeah. Um and you could go earlier,
21:27
you know, '33 or something to '39.
21:30
Um but the '50s are from '50 to '59,
21:34
unbelievable period, you know? Just some
21:37
really cool stuff. And the Europeans
21:39
were really doing it because they they
21:41
were destroyed during World War II and
21:43
and and they
21:44
the the Italians just they had it, you
21:47
know? Because they had an aesthetic
21:48
natural aesthetic sense. And and and
21:51
they were doing all small production
21:53
stuff. And
21:54
And and you know, it was just incredible
21:57
what they did. And whereas America has
22:00
good taste across the board. Italians?
22:02
The Italians have good taste across the
22:04
board for Oh, yeah.
22:06
You know, whether it's food or clothing
22:08
or architecture, automobile like just
22:10
they just I don't know.
22:12
They got that cultural history of 2,000
22:15
years, you know? Because the Romans the
22:17
Romans were incredible. They they had
22:20
you know, look at all the the
22:22
the artifacts in the Roman times. It's
22:24
it's just mind-blowing, you know? So
22:27
um we don't have that, you know? We're
22:29
we're a nation of immigrants and and we
22:32
lost our heritage from Europe most of
22:34
most of the heritage. And we're we're
22:36
trying still build the a new cultural
22:39
identity, you know? We have this
22:40
American cultural identity. It's not not
22:43
the best, you know?
22:45
>> [laughter]
22:46
>> So, I don't know.
22:48
Um the demographic change though is
22:51
um I don't I don't I really don't know
22:54
what the young kids are interested in. I
22:56
just I don't see it. Where do you find
22:58
it? On Instagram or or Tik Tok or
23:01
something? I don't I don't play on
23:03
Instagram or Tik Tok. I play on Facebook
23:06
because uh and YouTube because the
23:08
pictures are better, you know? The
23:10
quality of the pictures are better. It's
23:12
all all about visually looking at
23:14
something for me. So That makes sense. I
23:16
want to I want to jump back on the
23:17
rebody. I have a couple more questions
23:19
about rebodying cars. So, in your
23:21
opinion, if you're going to use AI to
23:22
rebody a vehicle, what platform would
23:24
you use to do it and why?
23:27
You You mean taking like a Miata and
23:29
turning it into something else?
23:31
I don't have any experience in doing
23:33
that. Um
23:35
No, but
23:36
that's one way of doing it. See, as far
23:39
as the building because of my exposure
23:41
to all my students and a lot of them are
23:43
from coming from Europe and stuff and
23:45
and Australia and South Africa and
23:47
stuff, a lot of those places they won't
23:50
let you do that. The government will not
23:52
let you build scratch build a car. Some
23:55
of them might let you rebody a car, but
23:58
there's all kinds of rules and
23:59
regulations that uh we don't have here
24:02
in the US. In Canada, you you don't have
24:04
them, do you? You can scratch build a
24:06
car in Canada. You can.
24:08
>> yeah. You can. Yeah, yeah. All right.
24:09
So, they
24:10
pretty much mirror the US example then.
24:13
And I don't know why they're so harsh
24:15
about it. It's you know, if you're
24:16
building a one-off car, it's not like
24:18
you're going to be a threat to people on
24:20
the on the road or something, you know?
24:22
As long as they they make you do
24:24
standard little tests.
24:26
In the US, all you got to do is pass you
24:29
know, horn and and brake lights and
24:31
emergency brake and simple things like
24:33
that, you know? So
24:35
And somebody that's going to spend, you
24:37
know, three, four, five years building a
24:39
car in their two-car garage is not going
24:41
to be it. It's not going to do a half
24:43
job at it. Right. You know, it doesn't
24:45
make any sense. So
24:47
What's coming up next for you?
24:49
What am I doing? Yeah, what are you
24:51
working on? What's in the shop these
24:52
days? That's a good question.
24:53
>> [laughter]
24:55
>> I got I got a potential for a job and I
24:58
I don't want to mention it, but it could
25:00
be a series of builds that that are
25:02
going to come in in all the same.
25:05
And um
25:07
uh I like that idea of doing a little
25:09
bit of production of making the same
25:11
thing over and over again
25:13
because then then
25:15
you start to learn from the process, you
25:18
know? So, that might happen, but I don't
25:20
know. I mean, I do I do architecture
25:22
work. I don't do the classes like I used
25:24
to do.
25:25
Um
25:26
uh
25:28
I do little small The jobs just appear.
25:31
So
25:32
and and I've I've been doing them and it
25:34
keeps me busy. And then I sell my tools
25:37
and stuff and and that keeps me busy.
25:40
Yeah. So, the problem is is help. That
25:42
and that gets back to the demographic
25:45
again is that the young kids are not
25:48
interested in this. I mean, there's in
25:50
my shop there's welding, there's
25:52
machining, there's shaping,
25:54
uh there's fabrication work. So, all of
25:56
these things go together, but nobody
25:59
wants to do them, you know? Nobody shows
26:01
up at the door or ever in the in the
26:03
last 10 years have showed up at the door
26:05
and said, "Just I would I'd like to
26:06
learn this stuff, you know?" Uh-huh. Um
26:09
because again, it's it's money-driven.
26:11
The big computer companies and AI
26:13
companies are the ones that are paying.
26:15
So,
26:17
uh you know,
26:18
that that's probably the direction that
26:20
they want to look at, you know? So If
26:22
you could build any car for yourself,
26:25
which car would it be and why? Yeah,
26:27
what I build? Uh that's a good question.
26:30
I have I have so many different ones
26:32
that I like, so it'd be it'd be hard to
26:35
say. It'd probably be a AI design that I
26:38
did. I've done some really really
26:39
decent. I'm I'm working on one now
26:41
that's pretty cool. Yeah. Um What's car
26:44
themes? '50s influence?
26:47
'50s and '60s probably, you know? Some
26:50
'30s stuff. This I've got some nice '30s
26:52
designs, too. But it would be all modern
26:54
drivetrain. And I'm not anti electric,
26:57
either. I think electric
26:59
that's that's another subject, but I
27:01
that's another thing that's bearing down
27:03
on the hobby is that electric cars, I
27:06
believe, are going to take over. Yeah.
27:09
Um they're cheaper to build and
27:12
the
27:13
the self-driving electrics is they're
27:15
going to be everywhere.
27:17
Uh [snorts] and I think they're going to
27:18
be everywhere faster than anybody can
27:20
imagine. And
27:22
the arguments are, "Oh, no, that's not
27:24
good. It's not going to work," you know?
27:26
And I I I came up with this and it's
27:28
probably been influenced from what I've
27:30
been hearing, but all right. So, say say
27:33
1900,
27:35
you're in any city in the world.
27:37
And you you what are you going to see at
27:39
1900? You're going to see 90% horses and
27:43
wagons and carts and stuff of that
27:45
nature in in every city. Uh
27:49
and and you're going to see maybe one
27:51
horseless carriage, you know, puffing
27:53
away with a big smoke bomb behind it.
27:56
>> [laughter]
27:57
>> People are just laughing at it saying,
27:58
"Oh, that's never going to catch on."
28:00
Yeah. And then as the year from 1900 to
28:03
maybe 1903,
28:05
there's more that come in, but they're
28:07
being built for the wealthy because they
28:10
they don't have the process of building
28:12
a car for the poor people yet for the
28:14
average common person.
28:16
And and by by 1910,
28:21
the horses are on their way out. It's
28:23
mostly you know, it's mostly all
28:27
regular internal combustion driven cars
28:30
now. There were a few electrics at the
28:32
beginning. Yeah. But they they didn't
28:34
have the battery technology. So, they
28:37
went away.
28:38
But now, I think that's going to happen
28:40
is the self-driving cars will come in.
28:43
The electrics will be dominant. Right
28:45
now, the electrics are there and only a
28:47
small 5% or so you doing the electrics.
28:51
But the prices of them of the Right now,
28:53
we've got a price barrier because when I
28:55
was a kid, you could buy a brand new
28:57
Volkswagen
28:59
uh for $1,700.
29:01
You know?
29:02
And of course, we made a lot less, but
29:05
um the cars were affordable. A new
29:08
>> That's not even the That's not even the
29:09
deposit to hold that brand new vehicle
29:11
for you today.
29:12
>> [laughter]
29:13
>> My father sold new Chevys and stuff and
29:16
he always said they had all the salesmen
29:18
always got demonstrators. So, we always
29:19
had a brand new car that he drove in a
29:22
new Chevy. And and uh
29:24
he sold
29:26
a few Buicks later on and and Chrysler
29:28
products. So, we always I was exposed to
29:30
all these cars back in the '60s, all
29:33
brand new. And and you know, I could
29:36
drive them and stuff. And and uh
29:38
you know, I was not that impressed, but
29:40
the prices of them were pretty
29:42
reasonable, you know? It was only until
29:45
the late '70s and the cars started being
29:48
costing five, six, seven, eight thousand
29:50
dollars for a new car. But now the new
29:52
cars are, you know, 40, 50 thousand
29:54
dollars.
29:56
And, you know, I follow what the Chinese
29:58
are doing with the electrics and then
30:00
it's just mind-blowing what they're
30:02
doing. Yeah.
30:03
>> And and and they've got some incredible
30:05
designs and and uh you know, people
30:08
poopoo the Chinese stuff, but uh I just
30:10
got that laser welder from X-Laser Labs.
30:14
Mhm. How is it? incredible piece of
30:16
equipment. I've had Everlast TIG
30:18
welders, incredible welders.
30:21
And and the Chinese are knocking it out
30:23
of the park when on a lot of these
30:25
different segments um that we this tools
30:27
that we use, you know, so
30:29
>> Sure. Sure. Would you given given your
30:31
choice, would you switch only to laser
30:33
welding?
30:34
Uh I think that's going to happen. Yeah,
30:36
I think I think laser welding will
30:38
become the norm, yeah. Mhm.
30:40
>> Yeah, I think the price will even come
30:42
lower. I think you're going to see a
30:43
laser welder for 2,500 dollars. Really?
30:46
>> Because the price is contingent on how
30:48
much uh volume of of the market share
30:51
that they get. And when once they get
30:52
market share, they're just they'll
30:54
they'll be dominant, so. And
30:56
>> Yeah, and I mean really, it's it's no
30:58
different than a TIG welder really. Like
30:59
the the lower amperage TIG welders, if
31:01
you're just doing sheet metal welding
31:02
pop cans together, uh you don't need
31:04
high dollar machines, right? And if you
31:06
need
31:07
you need 400 amps They've got Chinese
31:09
TIG welders that are under 300 dollars
31:11
that weld incredibly [clears throat]
31:13
well. It's just unbelievable. Yeah.
31:16
Yeah, and and the the laser will weld
31:18
even better than those those those TIG
31:20
welders, you know, so. Now there's
31:23
you're not going to throw the TIG welder
31:24
away totally yet because you can still
31:26
do stuff on the TIG welder that you
31:28
might not be able to do with the the the
31:30
laser. Yeah.
31:31
>> But um across the board that I know
31:34
China uh China's going to send uh cars
31:36
over to the Canada.
31:38
We're we won't allow them in because
31:40
they'll absolutely destroy Detroit, you
31:43
know.
31:43
>> Yeah. Uh so um the Chinese cars are
31:47
going to make an entrance and and
31:50
eventually they're going to be leaking
31:51
through Mexico because they're they they
31:53
can come in as used cars. Right.
31:56
>> So there's there's Chinese electrics now
31:58
in in uh California and and probably New
32:01
Mexico and Arizona and stuff that come
32:04
through the Mexican
32:05
Mexican border and Texas. Uh
32:08
>> Then it becomes where do you get them
32:09
serviced, right? Uh
32:11
Then it becomes a game of where do you
32:13
get them serviced. Well,
32:15
people will see it and say, "Jesus, how
32:17
much was that? That's
32:18
pretty good deal." And then you know,
32:19
then there'll be political pressure to
32:21
to to put them on, but it'll have the
32:23
ramifications of really hurting Detroit
32:25
unless Detroit moves and Detroit made
32:28
the move towards electric and now
32:30
they're pulling back and they lost
32:31
billions of dollars and Ford didn't and
32:34
I'm sure General Motors and stuff and
32:37
but and and and and it's again, it's
32:40
anti-electric, it's anti-self-driving,
32:43
but I think it's going to be like that
32:44
1900 to 1910.
32:47
By by with 2026, by 2036, it's going to
32:52
be all electric and it's all going to be
32:54
90% self-driving out there. The
32:56
self-driving cars will
32:59
will be able to have better driving
33:02
records, you know, 40,000 or 50,000
33:05
Americans die every year from car
33:07
accidents. And what if that number goes
33:09
down to 5,000?
33:10
They you know, that's an endorsement of
33:13
of the the self-driving. And uh
33:16
self-driving means it's going to be
33:18
cheaper, too, because people won't even
33:21
buy cars. They won't have car insurance,
33:22
they won't have excise taxes and all
33:24
that stuff. They just call the car up on
33:26
their phone.
33:27
And so where's the collector car scene
33:30
fit into this, you know? Yeah.
33:32
>> So it's it's pretty interesting. All all
33:34
this this technology change and and the
33:37
demographic change and
33:39
you know, the I it's it's
33:42
we have no idea what's going to happen,
33:44
you know, it's just incredible. And and
33:46
we can't control it.
33:48
Because it it it just has a momentum of
33:51
itself. I mean, how how could you turn
33:53
back the internal combustion revolution
33:55
that happened from 1900 to 1910, you
33:57
know, and electric motors coming into
34:00
production.
34:02
Uh prior to that they had the big giant
34:04
belts running the whole factory floors
34:06
and everything and then then electric
34:08
motor came in with so many advantages.
34:10
It's just unbelievable, so. Yeah. So
34:13
it's a it's it's a it's a world change
34:15
that's uh it's unfathomable for most
34:18
people, but it it's going to happen.
34:20
That Alfa Romeo build that you had on
34:21
YouTube for a while, uh let's talk about
34:23
that. Did you ever consider going
34:24
electric with that?
34:26
Yeah, uh well
34:28
I overreach sometimes and that was
34:30
overreaching. I thought, you know uh I
34:33
thought my YouTube YouTube channel would
34:35
benefit a bunch from building that and
34:37
but I I really just couldn't afford to
34:39
do it. It takes space up in the shop.
34:42
Mhm. And and uh I have a high overhead
34:45
and I have to keep paying the bills and
34:47
that's not going to pay any bills and I
34:48
could never make a bunch of money on on
34:51
YouTube. YouTube does not pay that well.
34:54
Right.
34:55
>> there's ways to make YouTube pay, but
34:59
you got to sell
35:00
uh a lot of peripherals and all that
35:03
stuff all that merch stuff and have
35:04
Patreon and I don't have time for all
35:07
that stuff, so. All the pro all the pro
35:09
shaper bathing suits. Yeah, yeah.
35:13
Uh
35:14
So uh I don't know. Um I I'm just along
35:18
for the ride and uh I I I just find it
35:20
amazing how much talent is out there.
35:24
And and there's a lot of people doing
35:25
really good work, but um everybody locks
35:28
into a railroad track mentality or
35:30
whatever. And it's probably it's
35:33
economically defined, you know, there's
35:35
the guys that are doing the chop tops
35:37
and all that stuff and then there's the
35:39
guys doing the traditional hot rods.
35:41
And and then some people are just doing,
35:44
you know, like English car restoration
35:46
and stuff and they stay on that railroad
35:49
track and they're not really looking
35:51
about what's going on other places, you
35:54
know. Mhm.
35:55
>> And uh
35:56
you know, that's their financial uh
35:59
formula and and it it works for a lot of
36:01
people. They make they make pretty
36:03
decent living at it. But you can't get
36:05
wealthy in the car business. It's a very
36:07
very difficult business, you know, to
36:09
make to make a lot of money. And and
36:11
probably look at the the the bottom line
36:14
of Tesla, but they probably don't make
36:15
that much money. Tesla's morphing into a
36:19
uh robot company, you know, they're
36:21
going to make Optimus and they'll make
36:23
billions of those and people don't
36:24
realize that. I mean, we're talking
36:26
billions.
36:27
You know, and I I think that that will
36:29
happen. That's probably one of the most
36:31
significant uh products that will ever
36:33
hit the human experience is the AI
36:36
robots.
36:37
They're just going to be incredible.
36:39
They'll do everything, you know. And
36:40
then the biggest potential of them is
36:42
off planet. That's you know, uh
36:45
we always had go west, young man and you
36:48
know, if you're on the East Coast, you
36:49
could you could go to the un uh
36:52
conquered West. The the Midwest and the
36:55
West, you know, for 100 years or so in
36:57
American experience and Mhm. And and the
37:00
Europeans of course came over because it
37:02
gave them a whole new chance at life,
37:04
but that's going to happen with the off
37:07
off planet stuff, which is going to
37:08
happen with robots, but um it'll you
37:11
know, humans will follow for sure, so.
37:14
Back to cars
37:17
um
37:18
I think
37:20
you know, using these new AI tools to to
37:23
build your own car rather than restoring
37:25
a car, that that would be
37:28
that would be a cool thing and that's I
37:30
try to promote at my classes. There's
37:32
nothing more fun than building your own
37:34
car. Yeah.
37:35
>> And I I get that because we built cars
37:37
at my grandfather. We made copies of
37:39
Duesenbergs, you know, so I said, "Well,
37:42
this isn't that hard to do, you know?"
37:44
It wasn't it wasn't that difficult and
37:46
and you end up with a magnificent
37:48
result, you know. It's tainted because
37:50
it's not an original. The originals get
37:53
the get the
37:54
the stamp of approval and any replica
37:57
doesn't. But you know, that's if you're
38:00
copying an existing design, but if you
38:02
do your own then you know, it might it
38:05
might turn into something. At least you
38:07
got the the the pride of building it
38:09
yourself, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I guess
38:11
the important part two is economics, so
38:13
when people are buying some of these
38:14
multi-million dollar auction Ferraris
38:17
and Lamborghinis and the Miuras of the
38:19
world and all this stuff, they come with
38:20
the provenance and the history of what
38:21
that car used to represent and what it
38:23
represents now. Right? Just like when
38:25
the when the muscle car
38:27
But that's out of the reach of 99% of
38:29
the
38:30
>> Agreed. hobby hobby people out there,
38:32
you know, so they they don't even look
38:34
at that stuff. Yeah. They just like the
38:36
shape. They like the shape and it's
38:37
pretty and they want to drive it, right?
38:39
So they build a replica.
38:40
But uh I I've had probably
38:44
maybe as many as 15 students that I that
38:47
you know, took my class, got inspired
38:49
from what I was telling them and have
38:50
actually built their own cars or in the
38:52
process of building their own cars.
38:54
Yeah.
38:54
>> And and uh I think it's a life-changing
38:57
event for them. It's really cool thing.
38:59
I wish I could do it. I I have a big
39:01
overhead that I have to keep feeding all
39:04
the time and I don't have the time. If I
39:06
was back in my two-car garage, I'd
39:08
probably be building a car or I'd be
39:09
building sculptures or something, you
39:11
know.
39:12
Right. What are your What are the common
39:14
traits from those students who are
39:15
building those cars? What are some
39:16
common traits across all 15 of them that
39:19
you think ring true for every single
39:21
build?
39:22
Um
39:24
I don't know. They're probably focused,
39:26
you know, and they're dedicated to it.
39:28
Uh
39:29
Uh locally, I have um Jerry uh Mankey
39:34
who's built he's on his second build now
39:35
and and he was an architect and he's
39:39
uh about 70 years old. He's just does a
39:42
magnificent job. It's just unbelievable,
39:44
you know, and he's he's only he's using
39:46
a Harbor Freight English wheel, which
39:48
drives me crazy.
39:50
He's finally learning the limitations
39:52
because it's the 2-in top wheel
39:54
that that you have to hold the panel
39:57
dead horizontal. If you go off, it bites
40:00
on the top wheel and makes a mark and
40:02
stuff, you know, so
40:03
he was complaining in the last
40:05
conversation I had with him. He was
40:06
complaining about that, but and he's got
40:08
plenty of money. He could buy a better
40:09
wheel or build a better wheel himself.
40:12
He's got the the means to do it and the
40:14
knowledge to do it, but
40:16
some reason he hasn't done it, you know.
40:18
So, I find that a lot of play even a
40:20
shop. You get these shops that are
40:22
working on million-dollar cars and
40:23
they've got these terrible
40:25
tools that they use and you know, my
40:27
grandfather's we had no tools. We had
40:29
zero tools. We didn't have an English
40:31
wheel. We didn't have a bending brake.
40:32
We had nothing.
40:34
You know, and and I don't know. It just
40:36
seems some people just don't want to
40:38
spend money on tools, but
40:40
I I didn't spend money on tools because
40:42
I didn't have money to spend. I built
40:43
them all myself and and that's a lot of
40:46
fun is building your own tools, you
40:48
know, so Wasn't the upper wheel on your
40:50
big yellow wheel? The big It's gray now,
40:52
but your big yellow wheel that everybody
40:53
knows from from YouTube. Wasn't that
40:55
from a from like a trolley or some cart
40:57
or some type of a roller?
40:58
>> No, no, no, there was
41:01
junk scrap yards next town over and and
41:04
I went over there and I found a hardened
41:06
wheel. That I went through a couple of
41:08
them. I found one that was solid and it
41:11
weighed like 87 lb.
41:13
Which [laughter] was cool once you got
41:15
it rolling. It would knock down any
41:17
lumps or anything real easy, but then um
41:20
uh I found one that was like a bucket,
41:23
you know, it had like it has like a
41:25
3/4-in wall thickness on it and had one
41:28
concentric hole and I made the other
41:30
side and put the concentric hole in it.
41:32
And that's the one I use today and
41:34
that's how I design my my top wheels
41:37
that I make, which is made out of a
41:39
tube.
41:40
And I think that's the best way to make
41:42
them because it makes them lighter and
41:44
you can make them any size you want.
41:47
Yeah. So
41:48
Do you harden your upper wheels?
41:50
Yeah, yeah. We just surface hardening.
41:52
That's all.
41:53
That's all you What about lower? Have
41:55
you had any problem? Huh? The lower one
41:57
I don't harden. You Unless you do stupid
42:00
stuff
42:01
you can easily clean them up, you know,
42:02
you sand them. You see my videos where
42:05
you sand them out and I I very rarely
42:07
have to clean them up, you know. The
42:09
wear and tear is a but
42:10
there's dirt on them, but
42:13
as far as the dent in them or something,
42:15
not a problem.
42:16
What material do you typically use for
42:18
those lower wheels if you don't harden
42:20
them?
42:21
Um the lower wheels I use um
42:25
uh what's called pre-hard. It's like 40
42:28
Rockwell or so. I use those.
42:30
But you could use regular I've got small
42:33
wheels
42:34
uh
42:35
2-in diameter, which I call a detail
42:37
wheel and that's just regular cold roll
42:39
and I've never had any trouble with them
42:40
at all. So, that whole hardening thing
42:42
is
42:43
the top wheel because you have to keep
42:46
it flat. Yeah. That's really important
42:48
that you get that hardened, but the
42:50
bottom wheels you don't you don't need
42:52
hardened, you know. It's like even even
42:53
a power hammer, I think you could
42:55
perhaps soft dies in it. As long as
42:57
you're not doing really crazy stuff
42:59
going over welds with them or something.
43:01
Uh in a power hammer you do crush welds
43:04
down, but you know, if you had a
43:05
hardened set for doing the welds and
43:07
then you want to do the rest of the
43:08
work, you could do it probably with soft
43:09
dies, you know. Yeah. Have you ever used
43:11
that cherry called cherry bomb or
43:13
Kasenit or something like that?
43:16
Uh well, the place I get it
43:19
hardened, that's what they use. They
43:21
they they they use that process. I don't
43:24
know how they do it. They do them in big
43:25
batches.
43:26
Right. The
43:27
the bigger the
43:29
more pieces that you give them, the
43:31
price is much better. So, if you bring
43:33
them one or two pieces, it's really
43:34
expensive, but if you bring them 20
43:36
pieces, it's not that bad per piece, you
43:39
know. Well, this has been this has been
43:40
fun. I really appreciate having you on
43:41
the show. I always appreciate having
43:43
your having your views on the industry
43:45
and economics and and sometimes you work
43:47
in some politics in there and and and
43:49
that's cool and then you bring it back
43:50
to cars and just you bring it home like
43:51
what are the grassroots? What can we
43:52
build today, you know? I always
43:54
appreciate hearing that. So, from me to
43:56
you, thanks so much for being on the
43:57
show. Where can people find out more
43:58
about you and what you're doing with the
43:59
YouTube channel and ProShaper? Well, I
44:01
haven't been doing too much with my
44:02
YouTube channel. We're going to put this
44:04
on my YouTube channel as well. Well,
44:06
thanks for thanks for tuning in to the
44:07
Sheet Metal Shaping Podcast. Don't
44:08
forget to like, share, follow and
44:09
subscribe and we'll see you on the next
44:11
episode.
44:11
>> All right. Bye everybody. Bye Ryan.
44:14
Thanks.