Up next in 10
From dodgy dealings in the gym to massive muscle building — on this episode of Myprotein’s The Scoop, with David Alorka, we’ll be asking whether steroids are an integral part of bodybuilding, or a dangerous addition to your training.
With guests, Dave Crosland, who’s pushed his body to the limits and Tom Maw, a YouTuber sharing his bodybuilding and steroid journey.
Can you use steroids safely? Listen and subscribe to get the scoop.
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[Music] it's david look here and welcome back to myprotein's brand new podcast called a
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scoop where we do just that we get you to scoop on the most nail-biting intense and controversial topics
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in fitness with our expert guest providing the information to help you make up your mind on what to believe topics discussed in
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gyms homes pubs and just about anywhere around the world surrounding sports nutrition and training this is where you're going to
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get the scoop today's topic is surely one that's been debated
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many many times and one that has a lot of intrigue and that is are steroids the answer for better
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bodybuilding to discuss this we have two exceptional guests thomas moore a youtuber and fitness
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enthusiast who documents his bodybuilding journey using steroids and dave crossland a man who's pushed
0:50
his body to the limits with training food and steroids and made a film about it now works to
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educate others on using safely dave tom how we doing good man good
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good thank you all good uh before we stretch into the depths of
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that we're gonna go through some quick fire questions tom i'm going to start with you
1:14
okay i'm ready to take this away i am sir go ahead all right barbells or dumbbells
1:21
dumbbells chocolate or crisps crisps back or biceps back
1:29
uh snacks or three big meals three big meals uh countryside or city city
1:37
uh football or rugby football training with friends or training alone
1:43
training alone mr solo hands i see you
1:50
um dave over to you mate let's rock and roll start as old as that
1:56
all stars start isn't like that organized or messy deck
2:01
should be but it's messy unfortunately uh chest day or leg day
2:09
like day you said that with so much you know what i mean you knew what you was getting video i hate training
2:17
is it that's why it's quite so bad
2:23
that has a lot of people's favorites yeah i mean when i say a lot of people i'm talking about myself um short and intense or long and slow
2:29
training sessions uh going keto or going vegan
2:36
keto don't ever say that word again [Laughter]
2:43
lions or tigers i'm gonna cheat ligers
2:48
ligers little crosby little uh little hybrid i like that fabulous fabulous well
2:55
all right okay i think we can glean a bit from from the both of you from your answers there um
3:01
but i think as we've gone through the starters of this conversation which was that
3:07
we're gonna step right into the meaty main course uh like i said this topic is one that is
3:13
a lot of people that that don't really or that haven't um really experimented with steroids or used
3:19
steroids um there's a lot of conceptions misconceptions in and around it and surrounding
3:24
surrounding it from that perspective so this is one that even me personally i'm i'm looking forward to delving in with
3:30
you guys so um even like before we start um dave i want to ask you what was your
3:37
what was your um initiation or your starting journey into using um
3:42
steroids i'm proper old school i mean i started using steroids back in
3:47
1990 so those days it the availability is
3:54
nothing like it was now um and you'd literally go to the big guy in the gym and
4:01
you sort of had to serve an apprenticeship so they wouldn't sell you the gear unless they thought you were worthy of having the gear and then when
4:07
it did sell you the gear you'd be lucky if you got a course of orals they wouldn't give you anything else um but my motivation behind starting
4:14
wasn't i i was a staunch natural for the first four or five years of my training
4:20
and for me it was because i wanted to train harder
4:26
okay so that it was it was really was more of a performance based thing where the size was actually a secondary
4:32
thing i knew it would enable me to train harder and train heavier and that was my
4:37
main motivation initially to start did you did you have any do you have any
4:43
um fears or concerns around around it i had apprehensive zero knowledge zero
4:50
knowledge at all didn't have a clue uh i didn't know about pct i didn't know about hormone
4:56
suppression i didn't know about side effects i didn't know what the drugs did i didn't know how they worked i knew
5:02
nothing absolutely nothing my first course was four years long
5:07
oh wow four years
5:16
tom you you've been documenting your journey right on on on youtube from that basis um could you
5:22
just let us know a little bit like how did you how did you start was it something that you always had some intrigue over or or how did
5:27
that you know become part of your training i think we i think we're all very aware of it when we start in the gym
5:33
it's quite hush-hush and uh i took the decision to sort of make the jump into anabolics
5:39
just because i started competing as a junior and you did that sort of thing you shouldn't do you just check
5:44
instagram you see who you're competing against you think oh they're so much bigger than me and it was more so a fascination into
5:52
the sort of the chemistry behind anabolics as well a big fan of dave's work watched all of his under constructions
5:58
and and purchased all the william llewellyn anabolic bibles that i'm sure dave is
6:04
very well aware of and uh my side maybe comparison to dave was trying to
6:10
trying to become a sponge and try and take on board as much information as possible before making that jump into
6:15
taking anabolics and now it's become almost acceptable to talk about that
6:20
there's a vast array of knowledge for people to to tap into now compared to probably back in dave's dave's era where
6:27
it was it was you know the gym bro saying you must do this 500 mega week for example so
6:33
yeah my fascination was was competing as a junior and then just sort of the the fascination into the chemistry
6:38
behind the substances you've got to remember when i when i started the internet didn't exist
6:45
yeah of course oh yeah oh my daisy work it weren't as simple get on the google
6:50
web the internet didn't exist i mean i'm old don't forget that
6:59
all right yeah now it all makes sense from that perspective i think so so i guess bruh as you said you had
7:06
no real information or or real knowledge surrounding it from that from that um from that perspective what was
7:13
when you were starting what was the um what was the social outlook you know
7:20
they're taking stories it was very much um a secret club
7:27
it wasn't very heavily discussed um the big difference one of the big differences between now and then
7:33
was you can go into a gym now and you would be hard-pressed to point out
7:38
everybody that using steroids because there's there's plenty of guys to use that don't look like they've seen
7:44
anything but the inside of greg's um where it's savage but it's true
7:51
you know where then a steroid user stood out like a sore thumb
7:57
uh and it was a small number of people in the gym that were quite insular they were supportive but they were quite
8:02
insular but doses in general were a lot lower as well okay so but there was there was
8:09
no real knowledge from a point of view of of the the medical side of usage there was
8:17
knowledge about what the drugs would give you in the sense of effects but there was very little knowledge about
8:23
the medical side of things or what even a pct was most guys didn't know what a pct was
8:29
we didn't i didn't learn i did four years on one cycle then i came off i
8:34
didn't touch anything for 15 16 years and it was only when i came back to steroids 15 16 years later
8:41
that i then actually started to learn and research and understand how the drugs worked uh and the whole drug usage world had
8:48
changed completely by that point but even in those four years i had never taken more than one gram of steroids a
8:54
week which by today's standards is very mild so in general there were
9:00
always there would always be in there always was those that used large amounts but back then most guys were running quite low doses
9:07
but there was a lot of people that did just stay on did you you mentioned there may be loads
9:14
of people that have no idea what a pct is what um for those of us okay they have no idea what is it what is it a pct is sure
9:20
for post cycle therapy so the traditional way of using steroids was is that you use them for a period of
9:26
time commonly anywhere between 8 and 12 weeks that's your cycle and then after that you use a
9:33
series of chemicals to restore your natural function because when you use steroids your natural hormone function
9:38
ceases to operate so you do a little kick-start program called a post-cycle therapy to restore
9:45
your natural function more commonly now is that people just don't come off
9:51
so pct is not particularly popular anymore there's various reasons behind that and a lot of it to be honest is absolute
9:58
rubbish um but there's this you know well i'll lose muscle mass if i come off and it's
10:04
like well you've only put eight pound on above your base weight you're not going to lose that when you come off cycle unless
10:10
your training is absolute garbage uh but that is one of the problems we have now there's people are very keen to learn
10:16
about the drugs very keen to learn about the diet but many people don't own their craft in the actual training
10:23
they go from they don't learn the basics so they start with the technical stuff drugs and diet
10:28
and every nuance of supplement they can use when they never actually learn the base craft which is how to train
10:34
effectively absolutely tom um bringing you in on that
10:40
um how much research did you take into you know before before you started on
10:45
your journey and that from that perspective and do you do you do pct
10:50
so uh i'd say around about 10 to 12 months it was i started my qualifications at lutheran
10:56
college and then during that that time alongside nutrition and training protocols and trying to increase mileage in
11:02
in in in that area i'd kind of branch off a little bit and try and collate as much research anabolics as possible
11:08
and uh when i first started it was very much as dave said that that stereotypical 10 to
11:14
12 week cycle wait for that clearance time and then we would uh we'd introduce some post-cycle
11:19
therapy and then in the the last couple of years because i've competing each year it's been more so blasting cruising in
11:25
the sense that you're taking a dose for that extended period of time and then we drop back down into a physiological
11:30
range but as as dave said the biggest misconception at the moment with individuals that are taking on board this blasted inclusion
11:36
is that they're never they're always in that super physiological range so if you imagine they're taking
11:42
250 milligrams which is their cruise and then they bump up to 500. if you spend two three four years in
11:47
that in in in that phase you're never really getting back down to that level of physiological range of testosterone so
11:54
the potential for them negative side effects to start creeping in is is is huge it it's one of the ways to
12:01
make this quite simple is that doesn't hurt
12:07
yeah do that for a year and you're going to be in absolute agony
12:12
and it's similar so a small increase over natural ranges of testosterone for an extended period of
12:19
time will create problems but for a short period of time
12:24
those problems are very low risk but when you're constantly sitting higher than you
12:29
should be with your hormones year on year on year you start to develop cardiovascular problems you start to have
12:35
blood value problems and that's where we're seeing a lot of issues coming forward now with modern day usage um
12:44
but um i mean you've also got to remember that statistically if you follow the work of
12:52
a guy called pope out the states statistically he reports that 80 of all steroid users
13:01
will continue to use post their first cycle the 80 of those 80 80
13:09
this is where steroid use is different to every other drug 80 of those will become testosterone
13:14
dependent at a certain portion in their life because their natural endocrine systems will no longer
13:20
function so their natural hormone system will break um what you've got to remember with most
13:28
illicit drugs is that we get into usage at a certain period in our life
13:34
so as a teenager you may start experimenting with weed when you start getting into your late
13:39
teens you might start going out and there's alcohol potentially cocaine potentially ecstasy
13:44
you know depending on fat it means possibly depending on where you are what your social structure is most people will grow out of that as
13:51
they get older they settle down into a relationship partying becomes less of a thing in their life and they marry they have kids
13:58
and they may occasionally use recreational drugs but generally they'll move away
14:03
that doesn't happen with steroids most people to start with steroids will maintain steroid use throughout
14:09
their life to some degree even if it's only a medicinal dose but they will maintain and this is why
14:15
steroid use is growing exponentially because you're not getting that drug usage drop off that you would get coming off
14:21
yeah yeah with other with other drug uses yeah okay okay um just just to touch briefly um for
14:27
those that are listening that can't see this uh physical uh podcast what dave was doing when he said that was
14:33
rubbing his uh finger on his palm um just to give a visual for those that are listening on
14:38
the audio only um uh yeah so you you touched briefly on on on
14:44
some of the um health implications tom have you looked into like what the
14:49
the long-term health implications are from that perspective you said you you did quite a quite a bit of um
14:54
research into that you just like let us know what some of those are and why
14:59
indeed even like with the knowledge of knowing what those are um you're like it doesn't matter
15:07
i'm going yeah because the time and the and the doses i was taking and the constant blood work
15:13
and i work with a company that gets blood work quite occasionally and this is all discussed with my coach
15:19
as well it was a case of monitoring blood work and kidney function liver
15:24
function and and biopsies on kidneys and also scans on the heart as well and and putting myself in the category
15:30
of yes i'm using anabolics i'm cycling on and off but my health is relatively acceptable for
15:36
what i'm taking and then then you start to creep into into long term and i think there's a
15:41
more systematic data where it's at that middle age of people that have just started where it's still hard to try and find
15:49
some hard evidence for users that have been taking anabolics for a set period of time
15:54
i think what's interesting and especially this year and last year is more so the psychological effects that anabolics are having on a lot of
16:00
users which which is often overlooked and uh i'm sure dave can comment as well when using subsidies like trend
16:07
you're almost turning yourself into this completely different character and and what needs to be studied is that long-term effects of
16:14
of antibiotic steroids is not only physically you know kidneys heart liver for example but in our minds psychologically the the
16:21
three areas of biggest impact where i see the biggest number of issues and bear in mind that
16:27
a lot of people come to me when they've messed up so a lot of what i do is trying to fix
16:33
people that have damaged themselves yeah so the first one and the most common one and most
16:38
generally accepted by any long-term user is the fact that their natural hormones will no longer work
16:43
so they're they are going to be dependent on testosterone injections for the rest of their life that that is generally accepted as users as being par
16:50
for the course so you still get people that are shocked when i have to tell them that they've
16:56
put themselves in that position but most people are relatively aware of that element of usage
17:02
the other one is heart um cardiac unfortunately on bloods isn't as easily
17:08
seen so like heart wall thickening and heart wall stiffening which will lead to a material fibrillation as in a irregular heartbeat
17:15
and can lead to heart failure which is where the heart fails to beat correctly um that won't show on bloods
17:23
very easily so you actually need echograms angiograms you need heart
17:28
workups to actually check for that which is an area that most people won't go that far they may be regular with the
17:34
bloods but they won't step further than that mental health is huge but it's very
17:40
complex we've not only got the chemical interactions in the brain particularly from as
17:46
being mentioned trenbolone which is uh particularly virulent and damaging in the brain
17:52
but we've also got the psychological impact of using steroids and we've got
17:58
the impact of the health and fitness world in its own right there's a quite a few studies that have
18:04
shown that basically the mental health of somebody this sounds quite ironic but the mental
18:10
health of somebody deteriorates the more they get involved with fitness and keeping fit
18:15
because they become more focused and now an easy way to explain this is
18:22
if you study for something if you invest money or time into
18:28
something it may be that you you customize a car or you study for a phd or a degree
18:34
that becomes precious to you because you've invested money and time in it
18:40
yeah so the same happens with your physique the more time and more money you invest
18:47
in changing your physique the more of a priority your physique becomes to you
18:53
yeah and then as a result things that challenge or question that
18:58
you can struggle to deal with mentally um one of the big issues these days is
19:03
social media and it's not just the fact that we're exposed to this massive range of physiques
19:09
it's that we're exposed to very generally untrue images of physiques
19:15
so you know back in my day the only physique i saw was the physique that was stood in front of me
19:21
these days i see physiques that i know the person in real life and it's like i know you don't look like that picture
19:28
you've just brought up but you're you're a master at using angles but that gives them unrealistic goals to
19:34
the average person that's looking at that and so they've worked really hard they're proud of their achievements they
19:40
engage in the fitness world online and all of a sudden they feel like absolute garbage
19:45
because they're now comparing themselves to unrealistic goals or to untrue goals
19:51
and suddenly they're now not successful they've not achieved anything because they're not as good as the next
19:57
person they're achieving to now what we find with the chemical interactions with steroids in the brain is not only do
20:04
they reduce cognitive function they change our perception of risk
20:09
they increase our levels of anxiety now you put those sort of parameters
20:15
into someone that's now exposed to a plethora of image that's making them feel insecure and you
20:20
can see where it becomes a whole melting pot that starts to spiral itself getting worse and worse and worse
20:26
lockdown has been particularly interesting for somebody like me who's a person watcher
20:32
because i've seen bodybuilders go into absolute meltdown because this
20:38
large element of their life has now been removed you see it with professional sports
20:44
people when they leave their sport and they were known as being that sports
20:49
person they lose their identity because they've got nothing to identify to so generally
20:54
they go into broadcasting or commentary or something like that but just to try and stay close yeah can you
21:00
keep them close but but they they tend to lose identity and they can really struggle with that
21:05
it can be a real difficult transition and you get the same in bodybuilding because they've invested
21:10
so much time and so much money it's one of the few sports i suppose that
21:16
has even an amateur level a huge amount of time and finances invested in it
21:22
absolutely does from that perspective do you um do you dave think a lot of people
21:28
now stepping back into gyms now are going to be using a lot more because they're in in prep
21:34
for not so much even in prep i've had i've had a lot of people
21:40
uh even my own clients who i really don't i hold them back constantly from the
21:46
drug use um they're wanting to regain what they've lost
21:51
yeah and what they don't grasp is that actually you'll regrain the vast amount of that naturally
21:57
if that muscle was truly established to your frame the muscle memory will bring that back fairly very quickly but the amount of
22:03
people that are jumping on cycles when they haven't even trained in the last four months and they're just going
22:09
back into the gym is ridiculous so you've seen a big spike in usage from from people wanting to
22:16
regain what they lost um i've seen a few people go completely away from it
22:23
surprisingly a few people that i know that were starting to have some mental health
22:28
problems with their usage and were starting to have difficult times because they've been enforced into this
22:34
period of no training no drugs no nothing they've actually realized that they're in a better position
22:40
mentally post that and so they decided to stay in that natural state but the vast majority they can't wait to
22:47
get back on and i'm constantly arguing with people look back off give it four six weeks of regular
22:53
training regular structured eating then let's sit and discuss about going back on a cycle you
22:59
don't need to jump on from day one but a lot of people are doing absolutely i think
23:05
um i think that's exactly what i would kind of presume from that from that perspective because
23:11
people want to make up for lost time very much so i mean you can understand if it's someone who's competitive who
23:17
earns a living out of it or has some sponsorship they have to answer to but for the vast majority of users
23:23
that's not the case and competitions are still very much up in the air we still not very got very
23:28
clear direction as to what shows are running watch shows and not running the calendars all over the place um
23:34
absolutely so it is it has been a test in time for users um mentally because they've lost this
23:42
grip on reality of what is their normal you know their normal doesn't existed anymore um
23:48
and a large number of people i mean i know a large number of people sustained cycles through the lockdown which was again a bit daft really
23:56
um it's so if you haven't got the facilities you need to progress then why would you add the chemical to help you
24:02
progress yeah but i mean unfortunately people the perception of when i started in
24:10
steroids training first diet second drugs third and unfortunately that's reversed now
24:16
and it is for a lot of people drugs first diet second training last and yet training is the thing that
24:22
starts it all training is the thing that uh stimulates muscle growth drugs don't diet doesn't
24:28
i can give you the best diet in the world if you don't exercise you're not gonna change your physique you might get leaner but you're not
24:33
going to gain any muscle mass absolutely no yeah it's it's yeah it's
24:39
interesting from that perspective it's interesting from that perspective that um it's been so flip-flop because people
24:45
want like i said people want um to quit gains but don't want to they feel like some to some extent that
24:51
you don't have to do the work from that perspective and
24:56
the bottom line is steroids do work if you get the genuine article they do work and as a result they can fast track
25:03
things and they can patch holes in poor diet and poor training
25:09
but that will only get you so far and the problem is people are very much
25:14
well it works in the past so it will work again and when it doesn't they don't sit there and go well
25:20
maybe i need to review my diet or maybe i need to review my training they assume to protect their own egos
25:28
they need more gear they need more drugs um it's very difficult for anyone to look at themselves
25:33
objectively and be constructively critical of what they do
25:39
and it's very difficult you know what i've always done that way and it's always worked in the past yeah well it's not working now yeah well
25:44
it must be this or it must be that because it's difficult to take responsibility for the fact that we're not progressing
25:50
because we eat too much or we eat the wrong things or we're just a bit lazy in the gym um
25:58
and i know it sounds crazy but you see i i honestly think if you got rid of
26:05
steroids to morris there was just you click your fingers and did a vaniss and steroids didn't exist anymore
26:11
then you'd probably see over 50 percent of people currently in the fitness industry disappear
26:19
oh what for real are you serious because they they wouldn't be progressing so why
26:24
would they continue doing what they do if they're not getting progress fair point fair point tom what do you
26:31
got to say about it do you agree 100 100 and then it also you also end up
26:36
going down that path of uh of the individuals that are claiming natural but uh using anabolics
26:42
behind the scenes and they're keeping stim about it so you know it's just it's just adding to that point i mean um how do you go on so yeah sorry
26:49
it's not going yeah no i was going to ask us um you dave you made a very clear and straight point basically saying
26:56
steroids work straight up flat out okay cool so we accept that as a reality that
27:02
steroids work the question that i'm going to throw at you both then um and i'm going to start with you tom is then how do you ensure
27:08
that you use them safely if you do because obviously you tom are currently um you know
27:15
documenting your fitness journey what i'm going to ask you one do you believe currently you're using them
27:20
as safely as as possible and can you use them safely
27:25
yeah i'm speaking for myself personally i'm using the safest way possible between blood
27:31
work feedback and scans at hospitals and also with uh with help from my coach as well but uh
27:38
what was it what was your question aside from from myself um yeah how basically how how can people
27:43
ensure that they use them safely of course i mean we've got educational sources dave is fantastic uh
27:49
there's other individuals on instagram and and many others on youtube and social media that have a fantastic understanding
27:55
but it's also about working alongside an individual that has a far better understanding at you and not following the
28:01
archetypal cycle that you'll hear down the gym so we can all we can all respond and react incredibly
28:06
differently to certain doses so i may administer 150 milligrams to a client and he has fantastic results that 150
28:12
milligrams to another individual may have hardly anything so it's that it's that segment of understanding
28:18
ourselves what what this dose dependent will do to us i think a key part is also
28:25
i find with anabolic steroid users especially in the fitness industry there's is this normalization to side effects
28:31
and it's this uh okay i've got gynecomastia i'll just use this to get rid of it or
28:36
you know my testicles are shrunk and it's it there wouldn't be any other scenario where someone would administer a substance and
28:43
for them to get aside from gut and just shrug it off so it's important that we understand what is occurring during these anabolic
28:49
steroid cycles and how we can how we can negate those potential negatives
28:56
and dave yeah over to you how can you how can you yeah how do you ensure you use them safely you can't perspective you can't
29:04
straight up you can do as much as you can to minimize risk
29:10
but you can't and the simple reason is because we do not know
29:16
go out and look at research studies on the pharmaceutical sorry on the the
29:21
superfluous pharmacological doses recreational doses of steroids and you'll find three
29:28
three there's a three on its impact on muscle and health there's a few more and and oslo
29:34
university have done about four or five on brain impacts which is where most of the research is looking at mo the problem is you can't take an
29:42
individual who's a non-steroid user and put them on steroids and see what happens to them
29:48
in science because it's unethical it's not allowed so you're reliant on information from
29:54
users which is generally biased and slightly skewed um that's not to say that you can't
30:01
minimize risks and that's not to say that you can't manage risks because you can
30:06
but there is a risk the result of the problem the as your usage journey continues your
30:12
perception of risk changes and that's the chemical
30:18
interaction that these drugs can cause within the brain now i've been down the rabbit hole of
30:24
drug use i've sat there on the toilet at three o'clock in the morning injecting my growth hormone thinking what other drugs
30:30
can i take to get bigger which is definitely not the thought process you need to be having
30:37
and i came out the other side with heart failure and kidney failure now because my heart failure was
30:43
drug-induced it's fixable it will regress my kidneys won't
30:49
my kidneys are trashed and will be trashed for the rest of my life and i supposedly knew what i was doing
30:55
but i did i mean i did push the limits don't get me wrong i mean i pushed it as hard and as far as i could go because i
31:01
wanted to see the limits um a lot of people probably won't understand that and it's too long a
31:06
conversation to probably have now but uh i i deliberately went on the
31:11
journey i went on because i wanted to experience and i wanted to see what happened
31:17
because we have no information on what happens we have no information on what happens when someone takes four or five
31:23
grams of gear a week and how they cope with that there is no information about that it's not readily available
31:29
but you know that's not to say that you know there are plenty of things that we do in
31:35
our lives that are harmful to us energy drinks alcohol tobacco diet lack of exercise
31:43
you could go on and on and on so you know it's not that steroids are this
31:48
big evil you abuse any substance and that's gonna kick you in the backside at some point
31:54
yeah you smoke 40 cigarettes a day and you're very likely to get cancer there will be the exceptions as there always
32:01
is you drink a bottle of whiskey a day you're gonna probably be an alcoholic and die of liver failure
32:06
you know so you know you eat mcdonald's every day you're probably gonna have a heart attack and be obese so there's you know any abuse of any
32:13
substance is gonna create increased health risks
32:18
the one of the problems we have is that over the last four or five years health conscious individuals and being
32:26
health conscious within your uses increase massively so people are well aware they need to take blood people are well aware they
32:32
need to do health checks but what has also happened at the same time is abhorrent readings have been
32:38
normalized so in the same way that side effects have been normalized and as it's generally accepted that you
32:44
know you're going to end up being on testosterone for life at some point yeah certain blood readings are now
32:49
normalized oh that's because you're on steroids it's fine and it's like no you still need to look into the
32:56
causes behind this and you need to look at patterns to see if things are
33:01
worsening or getting out of control um but you
33:07
i would say you can use steroids in a responsible and comprehensive way where you minimize
33:15
risk and that risk situation is always going to be down to your personal risk and reward ratio
33:22
now despite the health conditions i have the damage i've done to my body through my drug use
33:28
would i change a thing no would i do it all again yes because for me
33:35
the rewards of that experience and the good i can now do in working with other people was worth
33:43
the risks okay okay um tom on your side i mean davis has
33:49
touched like several times about this about talking about like being on testosterone and stuff like that for for or reliant on it
33:56
for um the rest of your life from that perspective is that something that you have accepted as part of part of yours or do
34:03
you do you feel like you won't have to taste and drink from that chalice not not
34:09
necessarily accepted but it's something i'm very aware of uh you know i'm very much insistent that
34:15
i would love to start a family be it next year or the year after that once i've i've
34:20
had a good run at shows next year but uh inevitably and again feedback will dictate what sort of
34:26
situation i am i am in but we see uh or i've i've come and come to contact with many people that are
34:33
that are very much under this right i've had my family i've had my kids so fertility is not too much of a worry to me i'm now going to accept that i'm on
34:40
testosterone i'm going to stay on testosterone for the rest of my life and and at that point it's okay well okay if
34:46
fertility is not an issue with you let's look at this in a way where you
34:51
are going to be using testosterone for the rest of your eyes but let's let's try and negate as much as possible the side effects don't think
34:56
right because fertility is not an issue i can say on testosterone for for the next 40 years that 40 years will get cut incredibly
35:03
short if you are abusing and and using in excess of however many grams of testosterone you're using so that's the the the area that we need to be
35:10
concerned about can you can you obviously there's a reason as to why
35:16
it's being used from that perspective the question is can you get and this is what the the users are going to the users the listeners are going to
35:22
be wondering is can you actually get the same physique without them
35:27
two would point so there is a point where your natural progression would equate your steroid progression
35:35
but your steroid progression would reach that point faster but then there becomes a point
35:40
where you will not progress further naturally and that's where the steroids take you to the next level there is no way on this planet i would
35:47
have walked around at 415 pounds with a 26.5 inch arm naturally not on god's green earth
35:55
there's no way i was ever gonna bench 220 kilo for reps in sets or shoulder press 220 kilo for reps and sets
36:02
naturally that was never gonna happen i'm not naturally a very strong person that was drugs um but
36:10
what is a bit ironic is when you speak to users particularly
36:15
amateur users at what their ideal goal physique wise is it is often a physique that is
36:22
attainable naturally but okay let me put it this way
36:29
how far is the shop from your house if you want a drink
36:34
probably about 400 meters do you drive a walk
36:40
[Laughter] uh nine times out of ten i
36:46
jumped in the car and drive there so this is the mentality socially we
36:52
look at yeah why do the hard work if there's a tablet there or an injection there that
36:58
will make it easier for me to achieve and you can't really argue with that logic in a sense
37:04
because that's what most our modern developments are based on his convenience and ease of making life easier and more
37:10
so we have more leisure time and less work time we you know i grew up in families where there was one car as a kid the family had one no one had
37:17
two cars now most families have two cars and might even have a third car for the weekend
37:23
and and that that's how it's changed we live in a very instant and convenient world
37:28
so it's difficult to say to someone you know what mate you sit there you lose your social life you stick to
37:34
this really rigid diet you take this really strict and regimented supplement routine
37:40
and you train religiously or you know what stick to your diet 70 of
37:46
the time train 60 70 intensity and take these drugs and you'll get the same physique
37:53
all right okay okay the the convenience and the accelerator yeah in essence from
37:59
that from that perspective very much tom is the um how much how much of a
38:04
role does like genetics play on how good um or physique you can build without them
38:09
do you think uh in terms of to the top level of bodybuilding if we're talking mr olympia
38:15
level i think genetics play a huge role you know it's the same sort of situation where you wouldn't you'd ask that's a
38:20
five foot four basketball player it's not you know the the the potential for him to go and compete in the nba is
38:26
very very little but uh you know you see some absolute genetic freaks that uh that claim natural and and i'm sure
38:32
there's many individuals that we can name and have a debate on but you see incredible
38:38
genetically gifted natural bodybuilders that are far better than many anabolic steroid users it just when
38:44
you when you combine the the superior genetics on top of the anabolics as well it creates this
38:50
preposterous even mass monster or aesthetically if we're talking about the classic guys which is a
38:55
a category that is blown up over the last couple of years with the likes of chris bumstead for example of these incredibly thin waists and very
39:02
broad shoulders and legs for example so i i i i'm yeah i agree genetics will
39:07
play a very large role in reaching the top of uh of bodybuilding and also the uh in the
39:13
social media influencer market now is is so heavily reliant on your image that you're seeing
39:18
users that are using short anabolic cycles for the instance of going into reality tv shows as well oh yeah yeah
39:24
yeah idiot boy with his anniversary i didn't even think about that tom yeah tom i don't think about that i see i see you
39:30
saying it's true you see a lot of a lot of quick transformations from that perspective when people know that
39:36
they're they're getting onto um onto a reality tv show and yeah and and applications denied
39:43
because they've had their pre-reality tv check not naming any shows but they're they're not allowed on for the sake of
39:49
well their blood workers showed they're using this or or that that was a later edition after the incident of the gentleman coming out
39:55
of the jungle because he couldn't cope not having his anavar which was the most pathetic thing i've ever heard of
40:01
but i i i've spoken to a few of the the use of particularly oral steroids within the
40:07
reality tv enterprise is actually quite high
40:12
um in fact it's very high um and off record a few of them have admitted that not only them but various other members
40:18
of the cast have at some point use them not necessarily using them at that point specifically
40:24
but at some point you've used them um it's it's a lot more common than people realize and that's where the
40:31
social stigma seems to have gone so you're still gonna so i mean there's a bit of a catch-22 within the sports
40:37
industry because you've got a very large financial industry
40:43
that generates huge amounts of money you've got a large number of sponsors that invest huge amounts of money
40:50
they don't want to be associated with drugs but at the same time they want extremes
40:56
when it comes to performance and that's the issue you know and that's
41:02
the contradiction that there is there there i can't i always forget the name of the study but there was the study
41:08
done on professional athletes where they they asked them if they took a drug that would kill them in 10 years time
41:14
um but it would make them number one in the world would they do it and a huge percentage of athletes said
41:20
they would and when you think that you've dedicated your life to be the best you can be
41:27
and you know you're up at stupid hours in the morning you're missing family events you're missing holidays you're missing this
41:34
it isn't a big step mentally for someone to go well if you take this tablet it'll make you
41:40
five percent faster five percent stronger yeah because it's almost like they're
41:45
they're halfway there yeah one there's the other thing russia state doping program
41:51
so basically large percentage of the ruffin athletes use steroids so why didn't they win everything
42:00
have you got the answer for us well if a genetic pool the size of russia which
42:05
has a huge population which means it has a huge genetic pull and they have training
42:11
camps that pull people as children to dedicate them into sports for the rest of their life
42:16
and give them steroids and they're not winning i can only draw one conclusion the other guys are using as well
42:27
all right okay all right the plot thickens steve the plot
42:33
thickens from that perspective um all right what i'm gonna ask then is because um i could see obviously
42:40
clearly you're would you like to call yourself uh in essence an an advocate for not
42:46
using steroids no i'm not an advocate for use i'm not an advocate against use
42:51
what i am is an advocate for education and choice but my argument is if you need to make
42:58
if you want to make the choice you should have the information available that allows you to make that
43:03
choice i mean like as a bodybuilder i don't think steroids are cheating unless you're competing in a natural federation
43:08
that's tested and you shouldn't be using i don't think he's cheating to use steroids to enhance your physique for
43:14
your personal use i think it's a personal choice yeah um i do think there are situations
43:21
where steroids shouldn't be used but again you know i used them
43:27
i abused them i trashed my health i now spend more time eating pies and i do sitting in a gym
43:32
[Laughter] who am i to cast judgment on someone else's choices and actions
43:41
um then i'm gonna come over to you tommen um let's let's look at this from a
43:46
bodybuilding perspective um because i said we've had a strong debate about sport um what's your thoughts on it from that
43:54
from that from that regard i know dave touched on it at the end there basically saying his his view is in bodybuilding it's not
44:00
cheating what's your what's your viewpoint in that sense do you do you just think if you're in bodybuilding then you really
44:05
want to compete and you actually really want to win you need you
44:11
no well not necessarily because you've got natural bodybuilders that want to push the limit and and compete at the highest possible level
44:18
from a natural position so to say that anabolics need to be used indefinitely is not essentially true you know there's
44:24
some fantastic natural bodybuilders like aj morris for example alberta nunez for part of the team 3dmj
44:29
guys there have made an incredible sort of portfolio of natural bodybuilding
44:35
it then comes down to the question of you've you've also got people that are unhappy with the amount of antibiotics that people
44:41
are taking non-tested so you know you've got the top guys that are taking grams and grams per week and then maybe a guy who only takes a little
44:48
amount and they kind of feel hard done by so the only problem again agreeing with dave
44:53
is running into when users are taking anabolics in natural in natural competitions aside from from
45:00
you know personal use i try and deter people from taking anabolics because they've got ib through in six weeks you
45:06
know it's the amount of emails i get instagram messages saying i'm going on holiday in six weeks time
45:11
i want to look good for my instagram picture at ocean beach what should i take and i said well you know it's all well
45:17
and good if you if you were going to ocean beach and and weren't drinking or taking any
45:22
recreational druggies like cocaine and ecstasy but the fact that you're putting your body under six weeks worth of pressure for anabolics and then
45:28
the recreational drug usage over there is is is shocking but again
45:33
who are we to judge whom you know i've made some you know probably wrong decisions in my lifetime
45:40
why should my opinion matter absolutely absolutely i guess yeah i guess i guess it's hard
45:46
from that perspective being in the position where you use or you've used and so and so forth for various different reasons to
45:52
then give to sit on that on a holier than now position but at the same time you guys with the experience from that
45:58
perspective are the ones that you know have in essence the experience you've experienced it so you can give
46:04
for me the issue is around honesty yeah if you use you should be honest about what you use
46:11
and what you should also be honest about is what's happening with your usage not just the positive yeah the negative
46:17
and that's and that's why i rate that's why i rate what tom's doing from that perspective with with documenting his fitness direct his
46:23
journey from that from that perspective because he's one very being very open and honest from
46:28
that perspective of like this is what i'm doing this was hap that's what's happening from that perspective but also
46:33
um detailing you know throughout what that journey and what that process
46:39
looks like on that on that basis i don't know if we have too much too many or too much of
46:44
that within the industry of people actually just being a lot more transparent or um
46:50
vulnerable from that perspective with that way of using i'm i'm probably going to blow me on
46:55
trumpet a bit here but yeah go ahead tell us when i did the other construction projects
47:01
so i did the same as tom did i document everything live on youtube and the one rule we had with those two
47:08
films that we produced was it had to be the truth now the second
47:13
the first one is in its way a bit tame uh each show's injecting and a few other
47:19
things which have never really been seen before on camera in that way but the second one literally shows
47:25
me destroying my health yeah those those shots of you in the uh
47:31
when you were getting the blood work feedback done were yeah quite hard you see me in hospital at the end of it
47:36
um and we i i did we deliberately made a conscious decision that we
47:42
weren't gonna americanize and sugarcoat what we did it was gonna be warts and
47:47
all and if that ended up me in a box then that's what it would end up showing on that film would be me in a box
47:53
um and i do think that i see this all the time on social media interactions where people go yeah i'm on cycle i'm
48:00
doing this i'm doing that and i'm getting really strong and i'm really going well and then literally within hours i'll get a message from the
48:06
same person going oh i can't get a direction anymore mrs is talking about leaving me i keep losing my stack and i'm blowing my
48:13
my temper with people and and you're just like why are you promoting it in the way you are
48:19
if you have an issue what's happening why don't you tell both sides of the coin absolutely some of the stories that
48:25
people have admitted to while being on trend of incidents of just out and outright
48:31
rage guy decided to pass someone
48:37
on the island on the outside of the fast lane on the motorway so he was between
48:42
the car and the railings yeah at 100 mile an hour because he wasn't going fast enough for
48:48
him in the fast lane that was drugging juice the guys that
48:53
have ripped wing mirrors off and and smashed them through car windows and pulled keys out of people's cars because
48:58
they blocked them and thrown them into the rivers and the stories go on and on and on
49:04
um short surveys that i've done uh particularly around trent have shown
49:10
that 30 of users
49:15
have had a serious aggressive incident related to the usage and about
49:22
sixty percent reported anxiety whilst on trend and thirty percent reported anxiety from
49:29
was continuing after they've finished using the drug but if people are open and honest about
49:36
this stuff then people don't get the full picture and they think it's just
49:41
scare stories or media hyping up the bad side of things and unfortunately the media has had a
49:47
bad habit of doing that i've done long-term interviews and video
49:54
diaries with media outlets that have put together um an online content piece or you know
50:00
another type of content piece and they've been told by their editors that it's not negative enough
50:06
against steroids so they're not going to wear it i got i got cut from uh itv show exactly the
50:12
same i had a sit down interview with uh quite a well-known tv uh
50:18
producer tv host and and it wasn't the content wasn't juicy enough and it didn't get aired but what did get it was
50:23
half an hour of just completely slating anabolic users for being scum lowly earth violent and great you know
50:31
the truth is sensationalistic enough to have a story there are those extremes it does go on but there are also
50:38
doctors teachers lawyers policemen fathers mothers that use steroids and
50:45
and do so with very little impact into their lives there's a there's a there's a massive um
50:51
interesting conversation to be had surrounding surrounding that um surrounding about how
50:57
integrated steroids is in in the normal life as well so i'm going to throw back the uh main
51:03
question to both of you guys um tom i want to kickstart review
51:08
um are steroids the answer for better bodybuilding
51:13
again it's tricky but if we mean better by a more aesthetically uh appealing physique be whatever
51:19
category bodybuilding is if we mean better by more audience being gathered at bodybuilding shows because
51:26
we have bigger mass monsters then essentially yes anabolics are going to inevitably leak let's not be naive on
51:33
antibiotics and what they can do to bodybuilding here but uh the problem then runs into
51:38
this fascination of anabolics and everyone using them being open about it they then lead to this massive influx of
51:44
negative side effects and not enough one not enough people documenting it and two uh not ensuring their health
51:50
whilst on cycles so yeah it's it's a tricky yes or no question to to answer over to you dave
52:00
i think anabolics create more extreme bodybuilding not necessarily better
52:07
i think bodybuilding is the process of developing your physique
52:13
to your ideal or to a criteria ideal
52:18
that isn't necessarily a role that needs anabolics to complete
52:26
i also think that there's
52:34
that there's i have no less respect for mr olympia as i do for a natural
52:40
who wins the world natural bodybuilding championships because they are both at the pinnacle of
52:46
what they do um yes there is differences in mass
52:52
that doesn't mean that the user trains any less hard because to be at that level of physique you've got no choice everything has to
52:58
be on point in the same way that the natural doesn't do anything any less hard because he has to be on point to
53:04
make the pinnacle of his physique yeah um so i don't think it creates better bodybuilding
53:11
i think it creates more diversity in bodybuilding and i think it creates more extremes in
53:16
bodybuilding and if we ever nail myostatin suppression then you're going to see things that are next level
53:24
um well now myostatin for those who don't know is a hormone that regulates muscle growth now many people will be
53:30
familiar with a belgian blue ball it's a cow that looks like it's on steroids it's just muscle on top of muscle on top
53:37
of muscle that's because it has been bred to have a myostatin deficiency
53:42
myostatin research on my standard suppression research is the holy grail in muscle wastage
53:48
disease treatment so it is something that science is actively looking to develop if that
53:54
drug's ever developed successfully then you'll see because that will create muscle without even moving off your ass
54:01
you will just grow because your regulatory system that stops muscle growth
54:07
has been removed that will see another level does that make it better no not
54:13
necessarily and then again it's down to your perception of what the ultimate foreseek is i like mass monsters because i
54:19
appreciate the effort and stress it takes to get to that size having been there that doesn't mean i
54:25
don't respect the likes of frank zane danny padilla you know uh guys that
54:32
bob paris guys that created amazing aesthetic physiques because their focus
54:38
was on the balance and flow of their physiques whereas your market's rule was on how big can i get pushing it to the
54:46
limit it was a limit push-up yeah and so they both deserve respect as far as i'm concerned because it's
54:52
like saying yeah is a sprinter a better athlete than a marathon runner
55:00
true okay it's apples in essence it's almost apples and pears although we're talking about all fruits it's it's it's
55:06
practically apples and pears from that perspective okay bodybuilding is a very personal thing in the you know my journey was
55:14
what i wanted to achieve personally a lot of people disagreed with it and i got a lot of criticism for it a
55:21
lot of critics i got a lot of hate for it a hell of a lot of hate but that was my personal journey
55:27
that was what i wanted to do with my physique and that's no different if you managed to fit into a criteria and
55:32
compete great we do have some audience questions for
55:38
you both uh our listeners have got some questions for you both and i'm going to kick start um with tom
55:44
here yeah um would you ever consider competing as a natural bodybuilder
55:52
i don't know what the the ground would be for me competing as a natural bodybuilder after i've of taken anabolics but uh my biggest
56:00
regret was taking anabolics far too early and far too early in my training career and i would love to push
56:05
i would love to push myself naturally and of course we all do sort of holiday cuts and we look in good condition you know
56:10
yeah i wish i i wish i would have taken it there as a natural compete on the stage but uh yeah if i could if i could wind
56:17
the clocks back then the answer that question would be yes yes squeeze out as much natural potential as possible compete at that natural level
56:23
and then look into going into the world of anabolics awesome um dave uh are you still training
56:31
nowadays and if so what's your training plan like
56:36
i'm training to be an international pie eater [Laughter]
56:41
and i haven't um some conscious some just other
56:46
priorities um yeah my projects took a huge amount of effort
56:52
time and and sacrifice from not just myself but from my family as well
56:58
so when i came out of the back of them i made the conscious decision that though i would still train
57:03
it would no longer be a priority uh i haven't trained during lockdown at all
57:09
apart from probably a dozen sessions on a boxing bag um and i've just focused on work and
57:15
other things but as it happens i am actually renewing my membership tonight and going back to
57:20
the gym on friday but i will never ever pursue
57:28
the size or mass game that i used to my goal now is generally just i mean i'm
57:34
i'm knocking on 50. you know i'm lucky i'm still alive with this stupid
57:40
stuff i've done to myself over the years um and to be quite frank i got out of it
57:46
relatively well considering what i did do to myself so i'm just happy to
57:52
to you know improve my health and and just live out my days study away it's been a difficult
57:58
transition um going from so extreme being so strong being so big
58:04
to to being relatively normal as not being an easel mental journey i have to admit that it's been difficult
58:11
uh but i i feel that i'm in a position now where i can go to the gym
58:16
without sitting there thinking god i used to do this god i used to do that god that used to be easy and now i
58:21
can't lift it off the ground i think i've gone past that now which is one of the reasons why i'm going back to the gym
58:27
tom one for you um do you ever worry about the long-term health risks as in does
58:33
that does that stress you out at all it does not necessarily stress i don't think that's the the right word but i'm
58:39
very well aware you know i don't lose sleep over it i'm very confident in my ability to assess what's going on and and dose
58:45
dependent for me at this particular time so you know it's very much a case of of living in in the now and
58:51
ensuring that my health is a number one priority and uh if it were to get to the point
58:57
where i wouldn't be able to continue use or i wouldn't be able to use a certain substance or compound due to
59:02
you know potential serious negative side effect then i would do so um and then finally one for you dave uh
59:10
what was or is your um your worst side effect
59:19
that's difficult um because i view the health implications
59:26
that have come off my usage as part of the journey i made so i don't view them particularly as
59:32
negatives uh i just view it as that was the journey you know um
59:39
[Music] would i like to have normal health yeah because i would i mean we wouldn't
59:44
but i i at the same time i don't sit here in regret and i don't see hearing woe is me or any of that
59:50
i would have said that the the worst side effect i had to cope with
59:56
and generally actually through my usage my side effects have been quite mild
1:00:01
my health problems post usage of where my side effects have really manifested but there was a period of time when i
1:00:07
started to get a very strange sort of acne and it wasn't like in
1:00:12
normal pimples it was like beard boils almost but they were very very deep so you couldn't sort of
1:00:19
squeeze them out and i sort of resembled wharf off star trek rather that i resembled a human
1:00:24
being um that that was a very difficult time to cope with mentally
1:00:32
because i got to the point where i was severely very conscious of the fact of how i looked
1:00:38
yeah but in general stuff like gyno or back knee bad acne on the back and
1:00:45
stuff like that i've never really had i just had this breakout on my face that lasted about two months maybe
1:00:52
slightly longer and that was actually a central nervous trigger it was the drugs but it was the
1:00:58
stress that drugs were placed on my central nervous system yeah um otherwise side effects really i've
1:01:03
never had a lot of issues i had health implications from my uses but your normal stuff that you get
1:01:09
like when i use trend i didn't get angry i didn't get hot i didn't get appetite problems or any of that
1:01:15
stuff and when you know we were talking about genetics earlier on one of the genetics
1:01:21
that plays a role in using steroids is your genetics to cope with the drugs is how you're resilient your body is to
1:01:27
the drugs okay okay no thank you thanks um
1:01:33
thanks a massive sense massively for that and thanks to our audience as well for sending those questions in i hope um
1:01:39
hope that has provided a lot of insight from that perspective now um we always like to ask our guests
1:01:47
for um one thing or person that has influenced them
1:01:53
and secondly one piece of advice that um they're gonna give to our to our
1:01:58
listeners so um dave you just finished i'm gonna start back again with you um
1:02:04
influence and advice from my training career i'd say probably one of the early influences
1:02:11
where there was a couple one was a guy called kev taylor who was a
1:02:17
lightweight middleweight british champion kev still competes now competes with nava used to compete with efbb
1:02:22
back in the day and he's a a woman called marian gaye was a pro they taught me
1:02:29
what hard training really was um but in that mix
1:02:36
was ian harrison mike quinn and a few other people who i had the privilege of training with uh billy
1:02:43
payne another one who was one of dorian's training partners these were people i was training with when i was 16 and 17.
1:02:49
so i i learned very early on what hard training really was like and
1:02:55
that became my mantle from then moving forward so from a training point of view they were very influential
1:03:01
piece of advice i would say be honest
1:03:09
be honest not only with the people around you but be honest with yourself and it's not the easiest thing to do we
1:03:16
all make mistakes in life we all mess up there's a knack to learning from that mistake but not
1:03:23
living in that mistake um you need to accept
1:03:28
and that's part of the honesty part of it accept what you have done or haven't done learn from it and move on if you don't
1:03:35
you'll just continually repeat that mistake because you're in denial of it being honest with people around you
1:03:40
being honest with what you want in life being honest with yourself about what your capabilities are what you're willing to do in the fitness
1:03:47
industry there are thousands upon thousands of people trying to achieve goals that they will never attain
1:03:53
because if they're honest with themselves they just don't want it enough and they end up in a perpetual cycle of
1:04:00
quite often drug use as well of just never getting there but making themselves miserable in the
1:04:06
process there's nothing wrong with not training seriously if all you
1:04:12
want to do is mess about in the gym a little bit you know so that's fine there's nothing wrong with sitting home and eating pies
1:04:18
if that's what you want to do notice i say pies a lot yeah i've got a thing about pies i'm an opener all right pies are very
1:04:25
important to know for us um but so i'd say honestly honesty to me
1:04:30
is one of the key elements in life that will make your life better thank you so much for that dave
1:04:37
tom over to you yeah inspiration wise from a bodybuilding sort of training aspect
1:04:43
would have been dorian dorian yates i remember buying his blood and guts dvd a long time ago and that was a first
1:04:49
sort of injection of what true training is and uh
1:04:54
other inspirations from bodybuilding would be chris bumstead just aesthetically you know who's who's holding reign of
1:05:00
the classic world at the moment and uh and mcgregor is a big conor mcgregor is a big uh i i
1:05:06
idolize him a lot in terms of all aspects of personality and business too
1:05:11
thank you so much for that thank you so much thanks both of you guys for sharing pleasure um
1:05:16
you know what's influenced you and a great piece of advice for both of you and for our listeners and that just
1:05:22
about wraps up this week's episodes of my proteins the scoop podcast a huge
1:05:28
thank you once again to our guests tom and dave who's giving us some incredible um exceptional insights around the world
1:05:36
that i don't know too greatly um myself but one and that i've managed to peel back the curtain
1:05:42
ever so slightly please guys keep the conversation going via social media using the hashtag the scoop
1:05:48
and indeed um in the comments too um also if you're watching this on youtube
1:05:53
click that subscribe button um and give us a little like as well and don't worry we'll be back again soon for
1:05:58
another episode i've been david a local you've been watching the scoop thank you for listening
1:06:10
[Music]
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