[EP 45] Interview with Jeff Finn

0:04
Okay. Uh, welcome in the new episode of Denim Leather podcast to Mr. Jeff Finn.
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Um, it's the director and all around uh allaround player or how I say in uh in
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the in the movie that he made uh screenwriter and everything of the documentary docu series in three parts
0:25
uh the searching for for Jim Morrison or before the end. Uh, hi Jeff. Hi. Thank you for having me today. I
0:32
appreciate it. Thank you for this amazing uh amazing trip. Uh, I was I used to be a fan of
0:38
the Doors a lot in the in the '90s uh when I was a teenager. It's one of It's
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my first uh t-shirt of the of a of a band that I wore uh back. Yeah. Yeah.
0:50
Yeah. Yeah. I love I loved them. And now I You chose a good one. Yeah.
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Yeah. like it was like 1995 I think uh when I started listening to them.
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Uh I mean I before that I was into into Guns and Roses and into Led Zeppelin and
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stuff but then I I started uh more into the Doors you know.
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Um so first I wanted to ask you uh how did your whole journey with the
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doors uh started you know when you were a little kid maybe?
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Yeah. Oh, yeah. Um I've uh I was born in uh February of 1967,
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so literally um just a few weeks after The Door's uh debut album came out. Not
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that that has [ __ ] to do with anything, but you know. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but as a little kid, uh, as
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I've pointed out many times, um, when I was, you know, four or five years old,
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um, I had older cousins, uh, and they were, um, into, you know, all that good
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music from the ' 60s and ' 70s. And, uh, so just just by being around them, you
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know, I soaked it up like a sponge. um whether it was on the radio or them
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playing you know their vinyl uh and eight track I remember they they had
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eight track uh cassettes as well and uh so yeah the music was just in the
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literally in the air and I couldn't help but you know just absorb it.
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So you so you were uh already in the 70s you remember a lot of the the rock acts
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and stuff like that right? Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, when I was a real little kid, my older cousins, I had
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three male older cousins and uh they were like characters right out of the
2:45
movie Dazed and Confused. Yeah. By Richard Linkletter. And um they were
2:52
always playing, I mean, there was always uh you know, whether it was Zeppelin or The Doors or Pink Floyd or Jimmyi
2:58
Hendris, there was always some kind of uh music uh in in the air. And uh I was
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right there just uh soaking it up. Yeah. So I I read uh and I confirmed it in in
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in uh yesterday when I when I saw the docu series. Uh I I I was aware that you
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started like 30 years ago uh in keeping interest that Jim Morrison is maybe
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alive, right? Actually 40 years ago. Uh that shows you how old I am.
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I'm uh I'm 58 now and um it was literally just my 40th anniversary last
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month. October of 2025 marked 40 years um since I first read No One Here Gets
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Out Alive. Um the first biography of Jim, you know, Jim Morrison. And I read
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that uh in one night in October of 1985 and I've been down the rabbit hole ever
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since. Wow. Wow. It it never it never left you
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honestly. No. And you know to be fair uh you know I've had people you know
4:09
detractors say to me oh come on you haven't been studying Morrison you know
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every day for 40 years. And of course not you know those first years when I was a young guy you know 18 19 20
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it was more a hobby for me then. Uh, but there was always a throughine. Um,
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that's no exaggeration. I mean, it was always in the back of my mind. Um, and as the years went on, you know, I just
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dove in uh that much deeper uh with each passing year until um
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the mid 1990s. In fact, it was uh 1996 when I began uh work on a book I was
4:52
trying to compile about the human Jim Morrison. you know, the real person as opposed to, you know, the rock star. And
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um that was in the very early internet uh age. And I didn't even have, you
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know, I wasn't online and didn't have a computer. So, I didn't get very far with my research back then. But that was the
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turning point for me. something really shifted um in terms of my uh dedication
5:20
and it became sort of this all-consuming uh passion you know um and that before I
5:28
knew it it was 20 years almost 20 years later and that's when I began work on before the end searching for Jim
5:34
Morrison which took me 12 years to create uh it was uh an odyssey
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so the the internet age helped you a lot as a as a see.
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Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'm so grateful for that. Um I you know, it's well documented that in those 12 years, um I
5:57
reached out to over a thousand people who were connected to Jim, you know, in whatever way, whether they knew him for,
6:04
you know, two minutes. Yeah. Or whether they were a lover or a classmate or a friend or, you know, even
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family members. Um uh and of those thousand people uh
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thousand plus I uh interviewed about 130 of them on camera.
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Um so I couldn't have done the majority of that without you know um research
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access you know online the internet. Yeah. Yeah. be before we go to the facts
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and to the to the people before I before I ask you that I want to tell you about
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a a rumor that I heard in the '90s and it was like a big rumor here in in
6:47
southern Europe about Jim Morrison. Uh may maybe it was 959 96 maybe maybe '94
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I don't know it was a rumor in Europe in southern Europe that that Jim Morrison is alive and that he's working in in
7:02
Turkey and that he sells he has like a gift shop for t-shirts and he sells t-shirts there. Uh and it was like a
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rumor here in in in in Southern Europe. It it was it was weird. I remember now,
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you know, after all these years after watching this uh movie, I remember the rumor the rumor now. Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah. There I mean, if Jim popped up, you know, based on every rumor that
7:27
has triangulated his supposed movements. I mean, he he's like
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a globe trotder, you know, worldwide. But who knows? You never know. Did you hear about other rumors that
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were not in your uh movie? Oh, yeah. I mean, I've in the last 40
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years, I mean, I've heard, you know, everything from the cliche,
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you know, really just ridiculous uh um you know, one one of them was uh uh he's
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he's work he was working at the he's either a Burger King or Kentucky Fried
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Chicken in Michigan with Elvis Presley, you know, so
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you know, and that's good for a laugh always. Yeah, but you know the detractors, the haters
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and the trolls, they like to use that kind of BS, you know, which is just,
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you know, that's like third grade level humor. With all due respect to the third graders out there in the world, you
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know. Of course. Of course. Of course. Uh, and um, what made you u what made you search
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for this truth the last 10 years? I mean, was it uh was it the guy Frank
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that you met online or? Yes and no. Um, you know, I had uh
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again, I've been at this for four decades now, 40 years. Um, and uh I only
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came across Frank uh Frank Wagner uh as it were um in uh he started
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following my Facebook page in December of 2016, so almost nine years ago. next
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month will be nine years. Um, and I was done, you know, I was done with my docky
9:10
series for all intents and purposes, not long before Frank came along. And once
9:16
he did, and I'm convinced he found me through Robin Wle, uh, who was Jim's
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personal assistant in Paris in 1971. Yeah, we can get into that later if you want. Yeah. Um, at any rate, uh, I was, you
9:31
know, essentially done with my what I call my documentary. Um, and then Frank came along and
9:39
changed everything. Wow. Uh, I I literally began work with a new editor and we
9:46
rebuilt the entire project from scratch, which is another reason it took so damn
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long to to get it done. So, h how did he followed you through Robin? Did she
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share your uh your Facebook page or something? Or
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I I met I I met Robin. I'd been searching for Robin. She was one of the first people I tried to find back in
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1996 when I was working on the, you know, the what would be the the book that I'm now
10:16
working on all these years later, which is called 127 Fascination, Jim Morrison Decoded. Um, I'm planning
10:23
to release that later in 2026. Um, but back in 1996 when I was making
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those first, you know, inroads into uh the ostensible book, um, I tried to find
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Robin Wordle. Uh, but her name, it took me 20 years, actually 20 years almost to
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the day, 1996 to 2016 to find her because in No One Here Gets Out Alive, I
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still have my original copy right here.
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Ah, from from the 80s, right? Yeah. From back in the 80s. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and uh, in this book, the first
11:04
biography of Jim's life and alleged death, Robin Wle's first and last name
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are misspelled. Now, I never knew if that was by design or if that was, you know, a typo or, you
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know, error or what have you. At any rate, that alone is why I couldn't find
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her, you know, in 1996. I had no internet. I her name was misspelled. I
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didn't know where to begin, you know, but I was so grateful in in the summer of 2016, I finally found her. And uh it
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took some time to earn her trust and um I'm so grateful that she, you know,
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worked with me and she did it in a very unique way. She didn't want to sit for a formal
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interview. Yeah. Uh the way so many others do like, you know, like this sitting on camera.
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Yeah. But she agreed to let me photograph her and use her words, her voice. Yeah.
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to sort of tell her story. And at first I was frustrated by that, but then ironically I realized, you know, this is
12:03
actually kind of a beautiful thing because she's such an important part of the process that it was really fitting
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to sort of present her in such a unique light, you know, in that in the context
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of uh so so so was she was she uh how did she
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feel to you that she knows some stuff that nobody knows or you know?
12:27
Oh, absolutely. I mean what she revealed to me over the mostly over the phone. I
12:32
did eventually meet she and her husband in person. They invited me to come meet them and that was lovely. Um and that's
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when she let me take the you know the photos of her the way she looked at at that time in 2016.
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Um and she was aware of my Facebook certainly. I don't know if she followed it, but just a few uh months after she
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and I met, Frank began following me. And when I first showed the photos of Frank
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to a very select few people that I trusted, this is back in, you know, 20
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early 2017. Yeah. Like like you like you showed it to the girls of Jim versus girls and
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family and stuff. Yeah. Yes. Uh, and so Robin was one of the very first people off camera that I
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showed, you know, here's a photo of Frank, here's a photo of Jim, you know,
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and I'll never forget it. She said, oh, absolutely not. It's not him. It's not him. It's not him. Like instantly,
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and I thought, ah, uh, you know, the classic, uh, I believe she doth protests too much. Um, because everyone else I
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had showed, they were haunted, you know, they were like, oh my god, it's him. It's him. It's him. It's him.
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Yeah. So, I think she was sort of doubling down. And at one point, she even said to
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me, she said, "Can you understand the position I'm in?" And uh cuz I I just
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put it to her. I said, "I think you helped Jim fake his death." In fact, I believe that that's
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specifically why he hired her. You know, she was hired under the guise of being
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an administrative assistant or what, you know, a personal assistant. And um you know many have pointed out
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why would Jim need a personal assistant in Paris if he was on a sbatical on a
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vacation you know he wasn't working uh he was done with the doors you know so
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at any rate the the thing that she wrote to me which I point out in before the end you know spoiler if you will
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uh right here at the very end of the book she wrote this to me.
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I don't know if you can if I can get it in there and I can read it. Uh,
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there there will always be secrets to un unravel, right? Yeah. She said, Jeff, there will always
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be secrets to unravel. How dull it would be without.
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We would not have met to a great endeavor. Robin. Whoa. Whoa. And you know, for the
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record, her her name is correctly spelled R O B Y N, not R O B I N as was
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in this book. Okay. And her last name is Wordle. W U R U T E L E, not W E R T L E as is
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in the book. Uh-huh. So, she was she's a she's a fantastic
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mystery unto herself, you know, honestly. Wow. I since I saw the movie this
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weekend, I I I wanted to ask you one thing. Uh you said about her in the
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movie that she gave you pictures of her and Pam baiting the dog of of Jim and
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and Pam, right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. It was like 13 months after Jim's
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supposed death, right? Yes. She gave Didn't Didn't didn't Pam die like 6
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months after Jim or am I wrong? No, no, no. Pam uh allegedly
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allegedly died um was it just under 3 years after Jim?
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Oh, okay. So Jim supposedly died July 3rd, 1971.
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Pam uh purportedly died April 25th, 1974.
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H Okay. I I always thought that it was 6 months after. I don't No. Um and you know, I I'm on the record
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with my belief, as absurd as it sounds on the face of it,
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uh that Pam is also uh not deceased, that she did not die in 1974.
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And I go into further detail. I sort of hint at that in before the end.
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But I go into granular detail in my book uh 127 fascination. And the book is
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essentially meant to be the conclusion to before the end to conclusion to the
17:13
docky series. Yeah. Yeah. I love I love the thing that you you saw reflection in in her in her
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glasses, you know, in sunglasses. Yeah. It was Robin's glasses, right? Yes. Yes. There were two. Again,
17:27
spoiler, you know, for any of those who have. Yeah. If you haven't seen Before the End, Searching for Jim Wson, and
17:32
you might want to hit pause right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. There was a uh It was
17:38
absolutely uncanny. She gave me In fact, I should have I should pull those up to
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show you. I have them around here. You have a picture. You have a picture. Well, they're color slides. They're the
17:49
oldfashioned. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. color slides, which are I don't think are really in any use anymore. Analog um slides. Um
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but in one of them, it's it's a photo of Robin in her sun. She has big round
18:04
sunglasses. Uh you know, from the style of the late '60s, early '7s, but I could see there
18:10
was some reflection in the lens. And so I took it to a professional photo
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lab and I had them blow it up and enlar, you know, enlarge it and zoom in on the
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lens. And there are, it's absolutely haunting. There are two figures, two
18:28
human figures reflected in the lens. And it looks like a man with long hair and a shorter woman
18:35
with long hair. And I asked Robin, I said, "Who took these photos?" Was it
18:43
Diane Gardner? Because they were staying with Diane Gardner, who was Jim and Pam's friend and the Door's publicist.
18:49
And she said, "No, it was not Diane." And I said, "Well, if Diane didn't take
18:54
the photo, then who did?" You know, and I said, "Could it have been Jim?" And she just
19:00
went quiet, you know, just her face turned away.
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So, uh, it just, you know, and and and and he was a he was a pro in
19:11
in camera, uh, right? He he he used to be a filmmaker before that, right?
19:17
Yeah. Well, he was a film, uh, major at UCLA. Yeah. Because the pictures are pretty the pictures are pretty professional.
19:24
Uh, as I can see, you know, we are pretty good. Yes. Yeah. He definitely had a a
19:30
filmmaker's eye and I he was very adept. You know, some people say he wasn't a great filmmaker. You know, that's
19:36
subjective. But at any rate, he certainly was uh he knew his way around film camera as well as still cameras,
19:44
you know, for photographs. Yeah. Yeah. I I I I also loved that a lot of people
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in the in the in the movie uh his friends or his family or his
19:58
girlfriends. I I saw that he had a lot of girlfriends in the doors uh in the doors period. Uh they're all saying that
20:05
he mentioned a lot of times about the future uh he going uh away or he ch
20:13
changing personality or changing names or disappearing. Is is it true?
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Yes. I mean based on everything I've learned Yeah. um you know in all these years um you know again for for those
20:29
who are opposed to this you know and I always say uh it's become a mantra for me you know I always say to each their
20:35
own as long as you're not an [ __ ] about it you know uh in other words you can agree
20:41
to disagree as long as you're respectful you know but online we know how it all works
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online people just are like ah you're full of [ __ ] you know and it's just that's not going to be a healthy
20:52
dialogue, you know, and generate uh thought. But I digress. Um,
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but yeah, he definitely spoke to a select few people over the years, not
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only about quitting the doors and moving on. He felt he was too old, he was maturing, you know, he said 27 is too
21:12
old to be a rock star. um uh you know he was making plans for the future and uh
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based on what I've learned those plans included uh going under a different name
21:27
and leading a a new life. Now what's incredible uh and I'm sure you saw this in before
21:33
the end. This is this didn't start in 19 you know 697 or 71 near the end of the
21:41
doors era. This went back, you know, 10 years to when he was in
21:49
high school. He first spoke to uh a handful of his high school friends
21:54
around 1960 61. Yeah. And said, "Someday
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I'm going to disappear and lead an anonymous life or something to that effect." And this is when he's like 17
22:06
years old. And they, you know, they said they looked at him like,
22:11
"What?" you know, like they didn't even know what to make of it, you know, they thought he was just being, you know,
22:17
goofing around, joking, you know. Yeah. I liked I I I loved the the moment where there was one of the women uh say
22:26
that he al he also said that he want to move to Africa and Morocco
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and that and that the supposed dealer in Paris moved to Morocco a day after after
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he died. Yep. That's incredible. Uh he told that to Sally Stevenson. I would like to say
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rest in peace to Sally Stevenson. She just passed away a couple of months ago. Oh, rest in peace.
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And um she also was just um absolutely vital to my process, you
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know, um in my research. And I begged her for years, you know, to to do an
23:03
interview and she finally did it and I'm very grateful for that. Um God bless her. Yeah. So thank you, Sally, wherever you
23:10
are. Um yeah I I mean it's incredible. He told
23:16
according to what Sally said he spoke of going to uh to Africa. He wanted to
23:21
explore Africa just as the famous poet Arthur Rembo had done nearly a hundred
23:28
years earlier you know. So I really do believe I mean at you know at the risk
23:33
of oversimplification I believe that Jim mapped out his own sort of stage play if
23:42
you will or film you know with himself in the the lead role and then he acted
23:48
it out. He he manifested it. He conjured it almost as if it were magic. And he
23:55
started this when he was a young guy in high school. And I I'm sure he didn't have it all mapped out, you know, but I
24:01
think he had a basic plotline of how he was going to do this. And um he made it
24:09
happen. I mean, it's it's absolutely incredible. As you may remember, in before the end, I asked
24:14
Frank Wagner point blank, you know, what he thought of of the count Jean Draai,
24:21
uh Pam, his girlfriend Pam, uh Jim's girlfriend's uh boyfriend and heroin dealer. Okay.
24:28
Yeah. And uh the one who went to Morocco as you pointed out and Frank was the only person in all the
24:35
people I interviewed, he was the one person who had nice things to say
24:42
pleasant uh a pleasant opinion of the count. And I thought that was just fascinating,
24:49
you know, cuz everyone else wants to demonize the count as, oh, he was a drug dealer, a heroin dealer, you know, he
24:54
was an awful person. And maybe he was, but uh at any rate, it is a fascinating
25:03
uh scenario to entertain. Yeah. Could this guy have helped instead of,
25:09
you know, there rumors with Maryanne Faithful, who was also the count's girlfriend, you know, that he killed Jim
25:17
with his heroin. And I said, well, what if we flip it around? What if he could have helped Jim cuz he had a pilot's
25:23
license. he flew. Uh what if he could have helped take Jim from Paris to
25:29
Morocco, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe maybe you
25:35
can uh start researching in Morocco for next uh next part.
25:42
Part two. Yeah. In Casablanca. Uh
25:47
uh you can uh I I can see in the movie a lot of great questions that you asked uh
25:53
Frank that are like uh like a little bit of trap questions uh like the moment
26:00
with the with the with the swimming team like were you on the swimming team you know? Yes. I mean, I can't even tell you when
26:08
at that moment when I asked him that and his re, you know, his reaction, his visceral reaction just gave me absolute
26:16
goosebumps, you know, all up and down my my arms. I mean, it was just it was
26:22
staggering, you know. Um, you know, and and the the funny thing is, you know, people they, you know,
26:29
again, detractors and negative-minded people, narrow-minded people, you know, they want to just, you know, look at the
26:36
they just want to cut through all of my research, my 40 years of work, and just say, "He's dead. Let it go." You know,
26:42
I'm like, "Well, prove it. Prove it." You know, I still haven't proved he's alive. You know, I think I'm about this
26:49
close to it. But you know these people it's so convenient to just write ah he's dead let it go you know that requires no
26:55
effort you know um when this guy had every motive in the world to do this and he not only had the
27:02
motive but he had been talking about it for 10 years you know so it's yeah yeah
27:08
it's absolutely plausible you know one of yeah yeah what one of one of the Jeff
27:14
one of the moments that are very hard to explain is the coffin why why closed Why
27:21
nobody to see him? Why only five or four people mourn and stuff like that, you
27:26
know? Yes. Well, you know, again, spoiler alert for for those of you,
27:33
I mean, Robin Wle, and I point this out in the in the docky series, she literally said to me, and this is over
27:40
the phone, she said there was no coffin there. There was no police and there was
27:47
no [ __ ] fire brigade. you know, fire brigade, meaning fire department, you
27:52
know, and uh I mean, what do you do with that? I said, so the whole thing was just a
27:59
sham. It was just, you know, how easy was that to do? I mean, but yeah, at any rate, if there was a coffin
28:07
and she says there was none. Um, we're led to believe that that coffin
28:14
was sealed, right? Sealed. And when Bill Siddens, the door's manager, flew over
28:19
from Los Angeles. He claims he was met with a sealed coffin and he never saw
28:24
Jim's body. They never opened the coffin. You know, there was no autopsy.
28:30
Uh the doctor has never been found, Dr. Max Vasile. Um I found no record of this guy
28:38
practicing medicine in Paris or anywhere else. Uh his name only appears in the signature who
28:44
on Jim's death certificate. So, I don't know. It's uh they say there's
28:50
no such thing as the perfect crime. And ironically, this wasn't a crime anyway to fake your death.
28:57
Um but I I believe that Jim was such a prankster. He has such a great sense of humor
29:02
that I believe he he consciously left breadcrumbs along the breadcrumb trail,
29:08
you know? Yeah. Yeah, I think he left little clues, little puzzle pieces
29:13
um as part of the mystery for the for the fun of it, you know, because it is it's a it's a grand mystery.
29:19
Yeah. If I if I go into the with that mind that he that he faked it, I I'd go
29:27
from the fact that people said that he was fat and and junky and uh uh
29:34
alcoholic, but he was on the on the last left pictures he was very looked very healthy to me.
29:39
Oh yes. Yes. He had lost another he had done this a few times over the years
29:44
where he would lose like you know 20 30 lbs maybe 40 lbs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
29:50
Um, and he did it again in Paris. You just like you said those last photos of him, he's actually very slim.
29:57
Very slim. Very, very looking very healthy. He doesn't look like, you know, like Jim from from the stage. Yeah.
30:04
No, not at all. And that's another uh, you know, among the mountain of
30:09
circumstantial evidence, you know, that's right up there at the top. And uh I spoke with his personal doctor, his
30:16
physician from Los Angeles, Dr. Arnold Derwin.
30:21
Um and this was years ago, this was probably, you know, 12 years ago already, 13 years ago.
30:28
And um Derwin told me that other than when Jim, you know, fell off the back of
30:33
the Chateau Marmmont and he hurt his ribs um and his back. He said other than
30:39
that and his drinking, he was healthy as a horse. So
30:44
Mhm. You know that that's which year was that? Oh, I'm sorry. This was right before he
30:51
I guess Derwin last saw Jim not long before he went to Paris within that last 6 months or or so. Um
31:00
so once again the jury's out you know until until Frank comes clean and gives
31:06
up the ghost. You know we'll we'll we'll speculate till the end of time to
31:11
Yeah. to to to me it looked like to me it looked like like he lived a healthy life in uh in
31:18
Paris. I think though I I I think um I think he certainly enjoyed the food even though
31:25
again as you and I pointed out he was very slim. Yeah. Yeah, you know, there were all these rumors, he's eating all these baguettes in
31:31
France and he's gained 100 pounds, you know, and and he's a junkie and he's a
31:37
drunk and ironically, I'm sure he loved all of these stories because they helped
31:43
provide a cover story, you know, if you know, if you're going to fake your death
31:48
and really commit to that, and that is an absolute commitment. Um, you know, it
31:54
would only help your cause if people were saying, "Oh, well, he's a junkie. He's a he's an alcoholic. He's 50 lb
32:02
overweight." You know, of course, he died. You know, so it helps grease those wheels.
32:07
They they always presented him as as the last part of his uh life was presented
32:13
with that big beard and the you know where where he's fat. It's it's not
32:18
that, you know. Yeah. When Yeah. when in reality he had shaved the beard. Yeah.
32:24
And he had lost all that weight in those in those final photos when he when he died. So when he died uh
32:31
he was he was with shaved beard. He was no with no beard. Right. Yes. From what we know. Yeah.
32:37
And I've always thought that he had beard. I don't know if it it was presented like that in the movie, you know, in the Dors movie uh Oliver Stone
32:45
movie. Uh but uh yeah, Stone at least got the they got the beard. They removed the beard. They
32:50
at least got that right. Ah, okay. Okay. You do you have contradictions in that movie since you
32:57
know a lot a lot of stuff from the Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I
33:02
think Stone I'm on the record as saying I believe Oliver Stone is an amazing filmmaker. Yeah.
33:07
You know. Yeah. I mean, I could never make a movie like he could do. I'm just a documentary filmmaker, you know. It's very different
33:13
from Yeah. Hollywood biopics, you know. Yeah. But as brilliant as I think Stone
33:19
was, I just, you know, it's just my opinion, but I don't feel that his brilliant gifts were really put to use
33:25
on the Doors movie. Um, and that's a shame. You know, what he did with JFK I thought was incredible. Um, and other
33:32
movies. You you think it was not true to the facts or
33:38
Well, I mean, put it this way. I can sum it up rather succinctly. Um, Alan Renee
33:46
was one of Jim's closest friends going back to UCLA. And Ron and I met for uh 9 and 1/2 hours
33:55
one day, uh, years ago. Um,
34:01
and long story short, uh, Ron told me a story of how he he Ron had been hired as
34:07
a consultant for the Oliver Stone film. Uhhuh. And you know, you had to sign I
34:15
think you had to like sign in and out when you would take the script away from the the studio, you know, or whatever.
34:21
At any rate, uh Ron told me that one day he marched onto the sound stage and he
34:27
had a copy of the script, you know, in his hand and he marches in there and he and he went right up to Oliver Stone and
34:32
he said something, you know, to the effect of, "Why are you not telling the truth about Jim, who he really was?" And
34:39
he said that Stone just broke into a big grin smile. And he said because the truth doesn't
34:46
sell. Oh, that's what Ron told me. I wasn't there.
34:52
But I don't know why he would lie, you know, and you know, again, to Stone's credit, he wasn't making a documentary.
34:59
He was making a fictional, you know, his version of Jim's life. And he took a lot of artistic liberty.
35:04
Yeah. V Kilmer was amazing there. Of course. Yeah. I think I think Val did an amazing
35:10
job with what he had to work with, you know. It's just a shame. There was so much more to Jim than just the rockar, you
35:17
know, the Lizard Kings. And that was the biggest goal for me in making my docky series.
35:23
I feel that Jim has just been turned into a commodity, you know, he's been turned into a poster on a wall.
35:30
Yeah. You know, or a marble bust on a gravestone, you know. Yeah. Yeah. He's become dehumanized and
35:37
I wanted to I wanted to rehumanize him. Something like uh John Lennon or Chevara
35:43
or you know a lot of historical characters are made into a poster boy you know.
35:48
Yeah. I mean, you become dehumanized, you know, you become a thing, you know, you become a a commodity and uh a
35:56
product, a brand, you know, and maybe that's all legitimate, but for me,
36:01
I wanted to, you know, blast through all that, you know, I make the the analogy of blasting through the marble of the
36:09
bus on his grave to get to the flesh and blood inside, you know, to show who was
36:15
this guy as a real human being, you know what I He shits. He pisses.
36:21
He puts his leather pants on one leg at a time, you know. He was a real guy, you know. He wasn't
36:27
just a He wasn't just this. He wasn't Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
36:32
So much more to him than that, you know. Uh he he was a sensitive person. He was an introvert, you know.
36:38
He he he was probably fighting against that, you know, that that Oh, they made him. Yeah.
36:44
Yes. Absolutely. I mean, he had a great sense of humor. you know, when you think of Jim Morrison,
36:50
you know, uh, you always like such a dark image, you know, um, and of course
36:55
he was that, but there were also many other facets to him, you know,
37:01
everyone's like a diamond. You know, we're all like diamonds where we have the different facets all around us.
37:06
And, you know, it's a shame that the Oliver Stone film presented him, in my opinion, as this one-dimensional in just
37:13
one facet, you know, the dark Yeah. [ __ ] up guy, you know, the the the poet, you know, forever seeking out
37:21
every experience. And again, that was a part of Jim, but just that that's just it. It was just a part, you know, there
37:26
was so much more to him. It it's it's interesting to me. I mean, I I knew this since uh when I was a fan. Uh
37:34
I also was a fan of some of the hippie uh revolution bands, you know, but he
37:40
was not a hippie and he was not a piece, you know. He was uh they they they they
37:46
write the doors logo with that uh peace sign, but I think he he he was not
37:52
compatible with with the hippie movement. No, I I agree. He was there were parts
37:58
of him, you know, I mean, no one is black or white. No one is one thing or the other, you know. Yeah,
38:04
there were parts of him that were in uh alignment with the hippie movement, but there were other parts of him that
38:09
completely contradicted that. Yeah. And I think he was just a fascinating cat, you know, um way ahead of his time
38:16
at the at the time in the mid to late60s, early '7s. Um
38:22
you know, we had wealth addiction back then and war addiction back then just like we do now. You know, it never
38:29
changes. And Jim diametrically opposed, you know, his own father who was an
38:35
admiral in the Navy. you know, Jim was absolutely the polar opposite of that in
38:40
every way, shape, and form, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So, he was he was going up against uh,
38:46
you know, war addiction and wealth addiction at a time when most people didn't even realize what the hell that
38:52
was, that that that was even a reality, you know. So, he was he was an incredibly incredibly brilliant
38:58
individual, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I I I I noticed that you I
39:04
mean not that you had to or something mentioned in the movie. He had a fascination with the with the Indians or
39:12
Native Americans, right? You never mention never mentioned that. But uh not that it matters in the movie,
39:18
but uh how come it it's not mentioned in in in your movie?
39:23
Well, I I go into uh that in further detail in my book in 127 Fascination, my
39:29
memoir. Um, and part of the reason I held off on it in the documentary
39:35
mystery, um, the three-part docky series, yeah, was because it's just, you know, uh, put
39:42
it this way, some some of Jim's friends absolutely believe
39:48
that he encountered the the ghosts or the souls of those Native Americans in
39:53
New Mexico on the highway, right? Yeah. They believe it. And when I asked them why, why do you believe it? They said,
40:00
"Because Jim told me." So then I meet Mary Worbolo, Jim's first true love,
40:07
right? And I met with her for almost 4 hours one day in August of 2012. In
40:12
fact, she was the first person I ever spoke to for my project, very first one. And that was fitting.
40:19
Um, and she she I'll never forget this. She said to me, she goes, she like
40:25
leaned in real close, you know, and she goes, "You know that story about Jim and the Native American Indians on the
40:31
highway?" And and I went, "Of course." And she goes, "Well, it's [ __ ]
40:36
bullshit." And I went, "Whoa." And I go, I was, you know, very taken
40:42
aback. I was like, "Whoa, what? Why do you think that?" And she goes, "Because
40:47
he told me." So there there he goes. So he told Mary
40:52
Worbolo it didn't happen. Conversely, he told other friends that it did happen.
40:58
So he was always pushing people's buttons, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He he was brilliant in that way. He was
41:04
like a sociologist really. I love. And in fact, he uh he told Jerry Hopkins
41:10
in the Rolling Stone interview in 1969, he told Hopkins that at one point in
41:15
college, he had considered Jim had considered studying sociology, you know,
41:21
and maybe becoming a sociologist. So, he loved to study
41:26
human culture, you know, humanity, uh the human essence, you know, what makes us tick. And um I think he I think he
41:34
just had a ball. I think he had a blast like giving different answers to different people at different times,
41:40
you know, and then gauging gauging their reactions, you know. Um, so yeah, it fits his personality for sure.
41:48
Yeah, I get it. I get it. I I loved his answer. Uh, it was not an answer. It was like a prediction on the electronic
41:54
music. You saw that uh from that that interview like he predicted electronic
42:00
music like way ahead. Yeah. I mean honestly I think he predicted DJ culture.
42:06
DJ culture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh not only DJ culture but experimental you know even though there had been experimental music uh you know
42:14
long before the doors with John Cage and Stockhousen and you know Yeah. Um I'm a huge experimental music
42:21
proponent myself. I I make experimental music with noise uh nonlinear abstract uh textures
42:29
like the uh like the fluxus movement. Right. Floodless. Yeah.
42:35
Yeah. Yeah. I I you know, I was in a a band myself back in the '9s and, you know, we
42:40
were very into the Doors and Joy Division and the Pixies and, you know, that kind of
42:45
stuff. Um, and I love that. I still love that. But I wanted to, you know, dare I say
42:51
break through, break on through, you know, get away from verse, chorus, verse, chorus, those structures, you
42:57
know, and uh I think Jim was very uh into that as well, you know, certainly at the
43:02
later period of his life, he was really branching out into jazz um you know, nonlinear forms and um that comment he
43:11
made about the future of music was Yeah, I can I I can I can I can see now
43:16
in in in this day and age. I can see nonlinear forms in this new trap music,
43:22
but I hate it, you know? It's like it's not it's not it's not chorus verse and
43:29
stuff like that, but it's uh it's very uh it's very flat. It's very downward,
43:35
you know. It goes like, you know, it's it's not uplifting to me, you know.
43:40
Not not very dynamic, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. I think he he
43:46
really was just um again, you know, the word genius is thrown around.
43:53
Yeah. You know, far too much in my opinion, but but in Jim's case, I believe it
43:58
really does apply. I think he was a genius. Yeah. And uh just a brilliant a brilliant human being.
44:04
And uh that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to show, you know, uh the the
44:11
real person versus the persona. You know, there's a difference between a person Yeah.
44:16
and a persona. And the Lizard King was his persona. Or Mr. Mojo Ryzen
44:22
or the Young Lion, you know, all these sort of media creations, many which he
44:27
created himself cuz again, his brilliance, you know. Yeah. But um I think most people only know the
44:33
the surface, you know, the face value of the persona, you know, this guy, right?
44:39
Yeah. They think of this when they think of Jim Morrison, but there's so much more to him. Yeah. Then this posed photograph, you know, as
44:46
brilliant as it was as it is. Yeah. I uh I'd like to think that he
44:53
went on his own and uh and probably changed name and started writing novels
45:00
under a different name that we'll maybe find out in the future. I don't know. Yeah. I'm sure you saw and before the
45:06
end, you know, again, cuz we're way past the spoilers now. Yeah. He told Sally Sally Stevenson again.
45:12
Sally, he told her uh he was going to use a different name when he went to
45:18
Africa and she said, "Do you have a name in mind?" And he said, "Douglas James."
45:25
I mean, so he was already working on a, you know, a pseudonym. Yeah. Yeah.
45:31
Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. Uh, thank you. Thank you, Jeff,
45:37
for this uh great great interview. I'm going to leave I I want to ask you a lot of other stuff, but I want to leave for
45:44
the people to see it in in the actual movie. Yeah, I'm going to drop Thank you so much. I'm going to drop the links of all the
45:50
of of all the three uh uh all the three links that you sent me and uh
45:55
Oh, great. Thank you. Yeah, it's I was going to say it's on Apple TV. Yeah. Uh Amazon Prime Video and it's also
46:03
worldwide available worldwide on vimeo.com. Yeah, you just go to vimeo.com
46:09
vimeo and punch in before the end searching for Jim Morrison. And I'm also in the process of bringing
46:16
it to uh far more territories and countries. Uh
46:21
and that's hope hopefully going to be happening very shortly. That would be great. Uh it's been in the works for a long time.
46:27
Are you maybe doing festivals with the movie or something? Uh I I think just given that it's a
46:32
three-parter and it's such a long Yeah. Yeah. It might be hard to absorb that at festivals and and No Sour
46:39
Grapes. I'm a huge fan of film festivals, but I feel now that it's already out there and released in the world,
46:46
yeah, you know, maybe that ship has sailed. Um, but um I'm I'm in the meantime, I'm finishing up work on my book 127
46:53
Fascination, Jim Morrison Decoded, and like I said, that uh the plan is to
46:58
release that later in uh 2026. two short uh uh questions for for the
47:04
end. What is 127? Can you explain to me in short uh short?
47:10
Yeah. Yes, I I do get into that in um in before the end in the movie. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.
47:16
Yeah. Uh one So when Pam Corson, Jim's uh longtime girlfriend partner,
47:23
uh even though they were essentially platonic in the last couple years there from what I've learned.
47:28
Yeah. um when she uh apparently uh came back
47:34
from Paris to California after Jim died
47:41
in July of 1971. She supposedly was carrying a metal uh
47:47
box, a strong box as a carry-on item on the flight. And uh
47:54
according to the legend on the top of the box, now I don't know if it was written in, you know, marker
48:01
Yeah. or pen or what it was, but um on the top of the box, it it supposedly said 127.
48:11
127 and then the word fascination. Mhm. Which for me has been like a almost like
48:17
a secret code all these years. All the people I interviewed, none of
48:22
them could tell me what that meant or if they knew, they weren't telling me. You know, I would ask everyone, "Do you know
48:27
what 127 fascination means? What is what was that?" You know? Yeah. And no one could tell me. And so then,
48:35
as you will, well, as you've seen in before the end, Yeah. I do believe I cracked that code uh
48:42
based on Frank's social security number. Oh, okay. Okay.
48:48
Yeah. At any rate, uh it's one of those grand Morrison mysteries and that's what
48:53
inspired the title of my book. Okay. Great. Great. Great. So now the
48:58
book is coming uh cracking the the code, right? Uh yeah. Yeah. Hopefully in 20 later in
49:05
2026. Yeah. Last one I wanted to ask you is the movie going going great for you? Is
49:10
it uh spreading good? Uh I mean online is it selling good? Is it spreading
49:16
good? Oh yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. It's definitely uh right now it's funny it's only I released it in January so
49:24
it's it's been out for uh you know what 10 months now. Yeah.
49:29
Um almost a year and in that time it's only been available uh in the US, the UK
49:37
um uh Canada and Australia uh through again through Apple TV and
49:43
Amazon Prime Video. But now that I put it on vimeo.com, there are subtitles, so it's available
49:50
worldwide. And then in addition, there's going to be further expansion into um
49:56
um uh a number of countries coming up in the next uh few months. So,
50:02
I'm really looking forward to that too in terms of uh the reach on Apple TV. Great. Great. Uh wish you wish you
50:09
success with that and thank you for this awesome interview. Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate uh
50:15
your time and I appreciate you reaching out. Of course. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Take care.

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[EP 45] Interview with Jeff Finn

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