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'This is outrageous': Trump envoy suggests Ukraine could be 'divided like postwar Berlin' | LBC
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Apr 14, 2025
President Trump’s envoy to Ukraine, General Keith Kellogg, has suggested the country could be partitioned “almost like Berlin after World War Two” as part of a peace deal. Kellogg, a key figure in US efforts to end the three-year war, proposed British and French troops could adopt zones of control in the west of the country as part of a “reassurance force". Meanwhile, Russia’s army would remain in the occupied east. Ukrainian forces would be positioned between the two, along with a demilitarised zone, reported The Times. Kellogg, 80, stated that the Anglo-French-led force west of the Dnipro river, which bisects Ukraine from north to south and runs through Kyiv, would “not be provocative at all” to Moscow. He added Ukraine was a big enough country to accommodate several armies seeking to enforce a ceasefire. Earlier, Ukraine's allies pledged a record 21 billion euros (£18.2 billion) of military aid for Kyiv, the Defence Secretary announced as he warned that 2025 was "the critical year" for the war. Ben Kentish is joined by Ukrainian MP Kira Rudik, who staunchly rejects the 'outrageous' suggestion , and former Nato spokesman Mark Laity. Listen to the full show on Global Player: https://app.af.globalplayer.com/Br0x/LBCYouTubeListenLive #benkentish #donaldtrump #zelensky #zelenskyy #putin #russia #ukraine #russiaukrainewar #peacedeal #keithkellog #trumpadministration #whitehouse #ovaloffice #president #politics #geopolitics #LBC
View Video Transcript
0:00
We've heard some fairly outlandish, controversial, some might say outrageous things from the Trump administration in its first three months in power
0:09
Hard to know where to start on that list. And yet something on the front page of the Times newspaper this morning, I think for me at least, right up there, right up there with the most absurd and egregious things that have come out of Donald Trump's mouth and those of his top team
0:24
His envoy to Ukraine suggesting this morning in an interview with The Times that that country should be partitioned, quote, almost like Berlin after World War Two, as part of a peace deal
0:37
General Keith Kellogg is his name. And under his proposal, British and French troops would help control the west of Ukraine as part of what he calls a reassurance force, while Vladimir Putin would be rewarded for his illegal invasion, his barbarity, his war crimes, his extreme violence by being allowed to keep pretty much all of eastern Ukraine
1:01
between those two regions would be a 18 kilometre demilitarised zone, a bit like the one between North Korea and South Korea
1:11
And that is something that, according to Keith Kellogg, Russia would be happy with and America would be too
1:17
which sounds an awfully lot to me, not like a peace deal
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but like forcing Ukraine into a devastating, pretty much unconditional surrender that does absolutely nothing
1:29
but give Vladimir Putin everything he sees by force and a huge great reward for the invasion that he launched in Ukraine
1:39
Is this not a sign that Donald Trump isn't really serious about a lasting peace
1:44
He isn't really serious about standing up to Putin. He is absolutely willing to give the Russian dictator pretty much everything he wants
1:52
on a nice engraved White House silver platter. how should the UK respond to this latest proposal from the US to carve up Ukraine quote again
2:04
almost like Berlin after World War II as part of a deal and I'm interested in your thoughts as well
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on this suggestion that the UK and France should put boots on the ground in western Ukraine to help
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keep the peace because what happens if Russia crosses that demilitarized zone as it's quite
2:23
possible given Putin's record it might should British troops fire back is it us and the French
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that are now tasked with securing Western European security from Putin's sort of whims
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worrying that isn't it because what happens if a Russian crosses the zone British troops open fire
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Britain is therefore basically engaged in direct violence with Russia is that something that might
2:48
make you pause for thought. Interestingly, thoughts on that too, as well as the sort of
2:52
main point of whether this is another sign that the type of peace that Donald Trump wants to
2:58
negotiate in Ukraine would be an absolute disaster, not just for that country, I would suggest
3:03
but for the rest of Europe as well. That number once more, 0345 6060 973 is the number to call
3:11
You can WhatsApp the same number, text 84850 if you prefer, or this morning, say Alexa
3:15
send a comment to LBC. We'll talk to a former spokesperson for NATO in just a moment
3:20
First, delighted to be joined this morning by Kira Rudik, a member of Ukrainian parliament and leader of Ukraine Holos party Kira very good morning to you This language I mean we talk about the plan in just a minute but the language almost like Berlin after World War II
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what do you make of that being uttered by General Keith Kellogg
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who plays a pretty pivotal role in determining the future of your nation
3:42
Morning. So this statement is, of course, outrageous for us. it's actually pretty interesting to watch how president trump has gotten himself into the
3:54
situation he's at saying that putin respects him putin likes him and this is why he will agree
4:01
on something with him but the truth is in reality russian and american negotiating groups were not
4:09
even able to go out with the same press conference and like with the similar statements they were
4:15
actually talking about pretty opposite things. Russia didn't agree to ceasefire. And up till
4:21
this point, their attacks on peaceful cities at the battlefield continue. So right now, President
4:27
Trump, who promised to end the war really quickly, given that he has a good stance with Putin
4:33
has failed in fulfilling this promise. And now they're trying to find a way out. And we see this
4:39
the statement by Keith Kellogg as one of these attempts to get out of this, to offer something
4:46
that will be completely 100% unacceptable, not only for Ukraine, but actually for Europe
4:51
and for the democratic world, and then say, well, we have tried. Well, I want to state once again
4:59
Ukraine didn't ask to have any other troops on the ground. What we have been asking is to arm us
5:05
to the teeth. And we will be defending not only ourselves, we will be defending the whole Europe
5:10
And we will continue doing that because we know that nobody will be fighting for our land
5:15
for our motherland, as we do. So that's why right now the discussion should be again, like
5:21
what are the ways of getting additional funds and resources into producing more weapons and
5:26
supplies and sending them over? This is the critical question. Unfortunately, we do not
5:31
believe that any negotiations with Russia will lead to any kind of result. And it's not because
5:37
we don't believe it like, you know, in our hearts, because since 2014, we had more than 200 rounds
5:45
of ceasefire negotiations and more than 26 times when Russia agreed to ceasefire and then broke it
5:52
So if someone wants to repeat this circle, this cycle, okay. But in general, we just know that
6:01
proposing that Ukraine will be split as Berlin is actually answering simple question
6:08
of what's going to happen after ceasefire. And we do not agree with this answer
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But the more complicated question that nobody is able to answer is
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how do you get Russia to get to the ceasefire? And unfortunately, this is the way
6:21
that General Kellogg is not answering in his interview. Well, that's why I say
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and we'll ask a former NATO spokesperson about this in a moment. It seems to me like more of a surrender deal than anything else
6:34
I hear your point, Kira, and obviously it's difficult and everybody hoped it wouldn't get
6:38
to this point. But the parts of eastern Ukraine, the Donbass, that are currently occupied by Russian
6:44
troops, as much as we might hate this to be the case, is it not realistic to think that they are
6:50
likely to remain occupied by Russian troops because you just at the moment are unlikely to be able to expel Putin troops from every inch of territory that he seized
7:02
Let's talk about which territories are we discussing? Because right now when we are talking
7:07
Putin's army is on the offensive in two Ukrainian regions. So maybe by the time we talk next time
7:13
the situation will be very different and much worse. The issue with us is not that we do not
7:19
believe that we can take some of our other territories back and free our people. The issue is
7:25
again, of what's going to happen next, because Putin was always using this as they call salami
7:32
technique, when they take piece by piece by piece, and they are not stopping unless they are stopped
7:38
by brutal force from the other side. So I think, again, we are not even at the point saying
7:44
oh, Ukraine should give up to this and that. The main question would be how do we make sure that after we stop somewhere
7:51
Russia wouldn't take more? Maybe not right now, in a year, two, five years
7:55
So you would be willing to potentially accept that once this war ends
7:59
some territory that was Ukrainian at the beginning is now Russian, but you want complete security guarantees that that will be the end of the matter
8:08
Ben, let's start with the question vice versa. The moment we will hear the real security guarantees, we will then can start the discussion about like which territories are covered by security guarantees
8:21
As of right now, we haven't heard a single person talking or approving those security guarantees
8:27
And everybody is asking us, well, what you are ready to give up without again, like saying, OK
8:32
Yeah, it's a very fair point. OK, if we give that up, what do we get? The proposal from Keith Kellogg to have, and this is something that Keir Starmer has been talking about, British troops and French troops on the ground in Western Ukraine as part of a reassurance force
8:45
Is that something that would potentially prove part of those security guarantees that you seek, Kira
8:52
The question you asked yourself before that I don't think, again, anybody answered
8:57
What would happen if Russia breaks their part of the deal? and the factual statements from the past
9:04
are telling that they intend to do this. And this war is very different
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from the wars that we have seen before because this is the war of the artillery
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and the drones right now. So if there is like some anonymous drone
9:15
that is attacking British troops, what's going to happen next? And I think this question you need to answer to yourself
9:22
before you're sending the troops and not after. It's a very fair point. Kira, thank you very much indeed
9:26
Kira Rudik, member of Ukrainian parliament, leader of Ukraine's Holos Party. Listening to that was Mark Laity
9:31
former spokesperson for NATO and former defence correspondent at the BBC as well
9:35
Mark, very good morning to you. You heard that, Kyrgiosen, this is another outrageous proposal
9:39
from the Trump administration. Do you share that view? Keith Kellogg is the closest
9:48
that the Ukrainians have to a friend in the Trump administration. I don't think it's outrageous
9:55
I think it's strange in some respects, but I think it's a little bit of a general musing
10:03
Kellogg has actually been sidelined by Trump in these negotiations because he was too friendly to the Ukrainians
10:11
I think what he is doing is trying to say how could it be feasible for French British and other NATO or maybe Australian troops to be in Ukraine at all I don think it put it over very well
10:30
I think I'm not surprised that people have reacted quite badly. But my sense is that he's probably saying
10:37
look, you want to get French and British troops in. How could you do that
10:42
Well, the only feasible way is to keep them to the west of the Dnieper River
10:46
which kind of bisects Ukraine. And then you have Ukrainians between the Dnieper River
10:53
and the front line with Russia, and then you have a demilitarized zone
10:59
I think the suggestion of dividing up Ukraine a la West Germany and East Germany in the Cold War
11:07
is very unhelpful because it gives off a whole set of impressions
11:12
I'm not saying it's a good idea. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. What I think Kellogg is trying to do is to say, how could it be feasible to get troops on the ground at all in a way that might be acceptable to the Ukrainians and the Russians
11:26
On that element there, Mark, would it be a good idea, in your view, to have British, French, potentially other ally troops on the ground in Ukraine at all
11:35
Because a lot of people in this country, I think, will be concerned that that could quite easily drag us into a direct war with Russia
11:42
on basis yes but there's an awful lot of questions over the you know would it be a
11:50
deterrence force would it be a reassurance force how close would it be to the front line
11:54
as kellogg has now highlighted um what would be its rules of engagement and so on so it's not a
12:03
simple yes no answer the conditions there and it's not just trying to avoid the question it really
12:08
isn't that simple. But I think what the previous speaker, the Ukrainian parliamentarian highlighted
12:14
is critical. If there is to be any ceasefire at all, then it has to be done in a way that means
12:23
it can't easily be broken. And that means that along with any insertion of forces, you have to
12:30
give Ukraine the ability to defend itself. Because where she's 100% right is the Ukrainians
12:37
will be attacked again by the Russians if the Russians think they can get away with it
12:43
So for the Russians, any ceasefire will be a pause between the next offensive
12:49
So what you then need to do is to build up the Ukrainian forces
12:52
so that they are able to defeat and defend themselves against the Russians
12:57
We've already seen they've done a pretty good job after the offensive in 2022
13:04
They need to be built up far, far more. the ultimate deterrence force against the future conflict is Ukrainians. It's not us
13:12
OK, really interesting. Mark, appreciate your time. Thank you, Mark Laity, former spokesperson for NATO
13:16
former defence correspondent for the BBC. What do you make of how Donald Trump and his team are handling this attempt
13:21
to bring an end to the war in Ukraine? Do you trust them to get a deal that works for us and other allies of Ukraine
13:29
Or do you think they're far more likely just to surrender to Vladimir Putin? And this this element of this this US plan that would see British and French troops put on the ground in Ukraine to help keep the peace
13:41
Does that worry? Is that something you would be willing to sort of see our our service men and women take part in
13:48
Or are you concerned that this is another step towards World War three
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