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US-Iran: Has Donald Trump betrayed MAGA? | LBC
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Jun 23, 2025
Lewis Goodall speaks to Jim Townsend, former Deputy Secretary of Defence for Europe and NATO under U.S. Presidents Barack Obama and Joe Biden. It comes after Donald Trump hailed strikes on a trio of Iranian nuclear sites a "spectacular military success" and gave a stark warning to Tehran that more attacks would be coming if the regime didn't make peace. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #lewisgoodall #donaldtrump #maga #uspolitics #iran #LBC LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Let's turn now to Jim Townsend, joining us from the United States, former Deputy Assistant Secretary for Defense for Europe and NATO, and the U.S. President, of course, Barack Obama
0:08
Jim Townsend, thanks so much for joining us this morning. Your reaction to the news, were you surprised that Trump in the end decided to go for it
0:16
Well, I was surprised that he decided so early. In other words, he had talked about two weeks, and we were in the middle of that period
0:25
And so if he would have decided to make the attack, I was expecting something a little bit later on, not now
0:33
So, yes, it was a surprise here in Washington. Lots of stories of people in the middle of their dinners
0:38
All of a sudden, their iPhones lighting up with this attack and and now trying to put our heads around it
0:45
So, you know, it was a it was a surprise that came upon us so quickly
0:51
And at the end of the day, you know, he had been going back and forth, both with Russia and in other situations where he says he would do something and then he doesn't do it or he takes a long time to get to a decision
1:03
This was an early decision and it was certainly one that was no prevaricating
1:08
He just pulled the trigger. It is extraordinary, isn't it, that this should happen at Donald Trump's hand
1:12
This is, of course, a man who in many ways his rise and ascent in politics was to some extent at least predicated on the rejection of Republican neoconservatism, of the Iraq war adventure, of forever wars, as he talks about
1:29
And his first term was very successful in particular at keeping America out of anything like that
1:33
And yet here he is. What do you think was the winning argument for him? Why this change
1:38
Well, that's a great question. And it's what everyone is trying to figure out
1:41
Of course, this has caused problems within the MAGA organization, you know, because they are still upset that he decided to take this action
1:52
This is something that goes against isolationism, which, you know, is a good part of the Republican Party now
1:58
This goes against staying out of the forever wars, as you mentioned
2:02
And he seems to be going against his own people in terms of their philosophical approach about America first
2:08
so what made him do it I think part of it is how
2:12
he was looking that as he was dealing with the Ukraine peace negotiations as he was dealing with the Iranians he began to get the feeling that he was being tapped along as he mentioned a couple of weeks ago about the Russians
2:26
And I think he felt that if he didn't take action, he would be looked upon as weak
2:32
You know, taco is that new expression for him. Talk, you know, that all he does is talk, and then he chickens out
2:39
So he's got this problem, I think, in terms of how people are looking on him domestically
2:46
as well as in Moscow and Beijing. So part of this, I think, was he was fearful that his own image
2:53
was being tarnished by not looking decisive and taking action. And so that was part of the reasoning, I think
3:01
Obviously, he is now saying, and he said that it's time for Iran
3:05
to come back to the negotiating table. And of course, one of the many ironies of this situation
3:10
has been that it was Trump himself in his first term withdrew the United States from the JCPOA
3:17
the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action that your old boss Barack Obama negotiated
3:22
which was supposed to deal, it had its critics, but was supposed to try and deal at least with the problem of the Iranian nuclear program
3:29
Do you think that it is at all credible now that Iran does come back to the negotiating table
3:35
at some form, let's say in the short to medium term? And if they did, how different would the deal be
3:40
to the JCPOA from which Trump himself withdrew from? Well, boy, those are all great questions
3:49
You know, we're going to just have to see how this untangles itself. It's going to be maybe, you know, 10 years from now
3:55
before someone can really answer your question and say, you know, they should have stayed with the JCPOA
4:01
Look what's happened as a result of what Trump's approach has caused
4:05
I mean, we're going to just have to see what happens in the next year or so
4:10
Coming back to the table, it's going to be very different, a very different discussion in so many ways than JCPOA
4:18
When they sat down there, there was there was something to negotiate. There were options in terms of what Iran could do
4:25
You know, there were there were there was something to deal with. Now there's not. I mean, the nuclear program will just have to take the president at his word
4:33
The nuclear program has been a deliberate that been destroyed So so now they going to sit down and talk about what you know can they rebuild Will they rebuild What will the conditions be if they going to rebuild something for civilian use
4:48
The whole discussion, the whole parameters, the whole endgame for what the parties will try to arrive at in any kind of negotiation will be so different
4:59
And also, will Iran be willing to sit down with a gun to their head
5:04
You know, that's something you always hear in a negotiation. We will not sit down and talk when there's a gun to our heads
5:10
And that's certainly what Iran could say. And last night, the president made very clear that there was a gun to their head
5:17
You've got to you're going to have to talk. And so under those conditions, when that this all might happen is really up in the air
5:25
I think there's going to be some retaliation to happen first before Iran will feel at any way predisposed to sit down and talk
5:34
It's an extraordinary day for Benjamin Netanyahu, isn't it? I mean, this is a man who has had difficult relations with a lot of previous presidents, including your old boss, Barack Obama
5:42
He would never have been able to persuade Obama, never been able to persuade Biden to go along with this
5:48
Even maybe Trump won. He wouldn't have been able to persuade it. But it's something that he has wanted to do for a long, long time
5:53
And he wakes up this morning with the news that he's achieved his two decade aim
5:57
Well, I think he woke up this morning with a hangover because I'm sure there was champagne corks popping in his in his office
6:05
You know, because you're absolutely right. This is what he is. BB has wanted forever was to get the United States involved and to get the United States involved, particularly in a strike on the nuclear sites
6:17
And that has now happened. And and, you know, it was never a sure thing that Trump, too, would ever do this
6:24
As you remember, and as you've said a couple of weeks ago, that's not where Trump was
6:29
He was about negotiations. And and it seemed that he was beginning to distance himself from B.B. as well
6:35
So it was a whole different picture two or three weeks ago in terms of how the U.S. might play and what the U.S. relationship with B.B. was turning into
6:44
And then suddenly, within a few weeks, right as the G7, as you remember, when he left the G7 early, suddenly he was on another path
6:53
And the path ended up right where Bibi wanted it to be which is the U as a partner as the president said last night on television This partnership the closest that it ever been And that exactly what Bibi would want to hear What do you think Jim will be the domestic political consequences for Trump now
7:10
As you say, I mean, there is a split within the MAGA movement, for sure, within the Republican Party, Trump's Republican Party, on all of this
7:16
But on the other hand, as well, there is some support. And the Democrats we've seen overnight, as ever with this, with Trump
7:22
struggling to articulate and struggling to come to terms with exactly how to criticize him
7:27
whether to criticize him. What do you think the domestic political implications will be for him
7:31
Well, I guess the bottom line is Iran, the Ayatollahs over the past
7:39
the Iranian government since 1979, we've always been their big enemy. And in the United States, there's not a love for those Ayatollahs
7:51
There's not a love for the Iranian government at all. They have been looked on as a threat
7:54
So I think in general, among the American people, if you walked out onto the street in Des Moines or someplace like that, I don't think you're going to hear a lot of sympathy for the Ayatollah
8:04
I think for the Iranian people, there is a lot of support for what they've had to go through
8:10
There's a lot of admiration, again, for the Iranian people. But for that government, since that revolution and the Ayatollah Khomeini, there's been no love for them
8:20
So I think I think there's going to be among the American people and the domestic politics here
8:25
I think there's going to be a majority of support for the president
8:31
But we'll see if that erodes over time. If the if this leads to further and deeper U.S. involvement, if there's a lot of retaliation, including things that are happening, not just in the region, but, you know, terrorism, maybe in the U.S. or in Europe somewhere
8:46
We'll have to see where this leads. And if it leads into, you know, a further engagement in a nasty area for the United States, you know, will that support them begin to ebb and be seen as a big mistake
9:01
But right now, today, as the Americans are waking up and starting to see the detail, I think there's going to be support for what the president did, at least here in the initial reading of it
9:15
But we'll just have to see where this goes. Jim Townsend there, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under the Obama administration
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