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Let's speak first to the eminent journalist and broadcaster Michael Wolff
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He's followed the White House closely, including writing the book All for Nothing, How Trump Recaptured America
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What does he think about this seemingly cozy relationship going so sour
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I think important background to this is that all relationships with Donald Trump
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break up, end in tears. I mean, they end in public humiliation, public firing, indictments, nothing
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Literally, if you go back to the first administration, 100 percent of the relationships within the White House came a serious cropper
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And I don't know why people think that it's going to be different for them
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But certainly Elon did think that was that was the case. Now, the interesting thing I think that's going on here is that in the past, if Trump screwed you, you were kind of screwed
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But Elon has maybe recourse. I mean, it is now the most powerful man in the world against the richest man in the world
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So that can be explosive. And it certainly is explosive. Just going back to what you were saying about all these relationships end badly
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Why do you think Elon Musk thought he was different? Do you think he did genuinely see Donald Trump as the kind of father he had never had
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somebody he could lean on emotionally? I don't. I mean, yes, maybe. Who knows
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But the interesting thing is that the White House is now filled with a whole new set of people who clearly believe that what happened to the people in the first administration will not happen to them And I think Elon thought well what can
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happen? You know, I have what can what can he do to me? What what's I am protected in every possible
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way. Plus, I'm virtually or in many ways supporting this guy. I am protected. Now
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that turns out not to be true. And Elon, from certainly what I understand, you know, was
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effectively pushed out of the White House. And this is connected to the so-called Big Beautiful
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Bill. For British people listening to this who don't know all about it, this is the absolute
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centerpiece of Donald Trump's domestic economic program, a vast transfer of wealth from some of
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the poorest Americans to some of the richest Americans, and also a bill which hugely piles
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up America's debt. Yeah, absolutely. But I would not be convinced that that is the
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proximate reason for this breakdown. I mean, Elon became very unpopular within the White House
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within the close Trump staff. His press was getting to be terrible. And there's another
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subtle thing that goes on with with with donald trump he lets people take charge and this is a
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combination of reasons including the fact that he's not very interested in these things and these
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you might argue fundamentally lazy but he lets people take charge and they can and they continue
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to take charge until other people notice that they are in charge and at that point they are no longer
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in charge because Donald Trump won let them because he can have it be seen that someone else is leading the fight Yeah Now what we do know from research published in the last 24 hours is that this bill includes measures to remove tax breaks for people buying electric vehicles
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which will cause a big, big hit to Tesla. And in fact, Musk is going to lose a lot of money if this bill goes through as it is
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And he seems to be campaigning against it. He's singled out all the Republican congressmen who voted in favor of it
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And he's promising some kind of revenge. Do you think it is possible that he is able to actually muster enough support on the Hill to stop this bill
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Well, I think that's going to be the interesting thing to see. Will Elon Musk go to war with Donald Trump
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And if so, what happens? Who wins? Who has the advantages here
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You know, this is we we've never seen we've never seen the we've never seen this kind of this kind of head to head conflict with Trump
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People go head to head with Trump and he smashes them down
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So will he do that to Elon Musk, with whom he's still looking forward to getting millions upon millions upon millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars
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Yes, indeed. Part of the Trump strategy is to enrich himself and enrich his family in all of this
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But if this bill is destroyed by the feud with Elon Musk do you think that really removes the center the sort of motivating power of this Trump administration so early Well no not necessarily Donald Trump does not rule by accomplishment He rules by headlines He rules by conflict really So what happens
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It is very possible that a fight with Elon Musk becomes another centerpiece of this administration
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of Trump taking the view that Elon is the bad guy and he is defending the country against this bad guy
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or even more, that Trump is the victim, a role he very much likes
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And Elon Musk has been seen by other people in the MAGA movement
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the more populist, sort of more nativist people in the MAGA movement
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as a good example of the tech bro, the incoming tech bros
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who are, as it were, corrupting Donald Trump. So do you think his fall would mean the victory of people like Steve Bannon
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and indeed growing power for J.D. Vance? Yeah, well, I think that's complicated
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and I wouldn't group Bannon and J.D. Vance together. J.D. Vance is going to be naturally on the Elon side
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and Bannon, of course, is not going to be, because he's, among other things, has been incredibly envious of the role that Bannon has had
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that Elon has had in this administration, which is essentially the role that Bannon had in the last administration
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Well, listen, that's been a fascinating conversation. You have written very, very well about Donald Trump over the years
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It may require Shakespeare to write the next part of this story. But for now, Michael, thank you very much indeed
