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Jul 23, 2025
Israel-Gaza: Is it 'too late' for more sanctions? Andrew Marr and his guests discuss. Today's guests were: - Chris Philp, Shadow Home Secretary - Peter Walsh, Senior Researcher at the University of Oxford's Migration Observatory - Natasha Clark, LBC's Political Editor - Emily Thornberry, Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee - Rachael Cummings, Save the Children's Team Leader in Gaza - Lord Stewart Wood, Labour Peer and Chair of the Lords Economic Affairs Committee - John Sweeney, Presenter of the Global podcast Hunting Ghislaine - Will Guyatt, LBC's Tech Correspondent` Listen to the full show on Global Player: https://app.af.globalplayer.com/Br0x/LBCYouTubeListenLive #andrewmarr #politics #news #ukpolitics #uknews #lbc LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/
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0:00
Six o'clock. A report into Unite has found the union overpaid tens of millions of pounds
0:05
for a major project delivered by a building company with ties to its former boss
0:10
It's claimed ex-General Secretary Len McCluskey also enjoyed flights on private jets
0:15
and football tickets arranged by the Flanagan Group. Both have been approached for comment
0:20
LBC's political editor Natasha Clarke has more. Some really, really shocking findings in here, including a contract to drill holes in walls
0:28
which should have been charged at £90,000. Instead, the union paid more than £1.3 million for that
0:34
Unite had lent the firm half a million pounds, but this, according to them, was never returned
0:39
The audit also uncovered very unusual payments to the contractor, including another half a million pound advance without explanation
0:47
A man who murdered his wife while she pushed their child in a pram has been jailed for at least 28 years
0:53
Abiba Masum, who's 27, killed Kulsoma Akta in April last year. The family of a woman whose body was found in a lake have caught her a guiding light
1:03
38-year-old Rachel Booth was reported missing in Cheshire on Saturday. And a strike by resident doctors in England will go ahead
1:10
after talks failed to reach a resolution in a dispute over pay. Members are due to walk out for five days from Friday
1:17
In the city, the FTSE 100 has closed up 10 points at 90.23
1:21
The pound buys $1.35 and €1.15. LBC weather cloudy with some light rain in northwest Scotland
1:29
Isolated showers elsewhere tonight, but more frequent in southwest Wales and England
1:33
A low of 11 degrees. From Global's newsroom for LBC, I'm Amelia Cox
1:40
This is LBC from Global, leading Britain's conversation. It's 6pm. Now, tonight with Andrew Marr
1:53
Good evening. Let's start with the blindingly obvious. This isn't working. So far, nothing done by Labour ministers to stop the flow of asylum-seeking migrants across the Channel has worked
2:05
The numbers coming this year are 50% up, around 21,000 so far
2:10
And there's a record number of 109,000 people claiming asylum here in the last recorded year
2:16
more than 32,000 of them in hotel accommodation. That's all despite the smash-the-gangs rhetoric
2:24
the changes in the law, the deal with France, the deal with Germany, the changed tactics by the French police
2:30
and today's announcement of freezing the assets of people smugglers will have very little impact either
2:37
These are people living abroad. They don't want to come here themselves, and their assets are far beyond our control
2:42
So, yes, Labour did inherit the problem, which is in part a global one
2:47
and maybe, in due course, some of these measures might start to have an impact
2:52
But so far this is just the British state sounding self-important, even deluded
2:57
a brave little toot of the trumpet, which nobody notices. And the succession of small announcements
3:03
which don't change anything is itself very dangerous politics. It seems a growing sense that the government
3:10
has lost control, doesn't really know what to do. It's not as if politicians haven't noticed the trouble that may be ahead
3:16
Angela Rayner, the Deputy Prime Minister, told the Cabinet earlier this week
3:20
that a range of problems, including immigration and its impact on local communities
3:25
as well as technological change and deindustrialisation, was profoundly affecting society. Using more dramatic words, Nigel Farage talks about societal collapse
3:36
Meanwhile, mobs fired up on social media take the law into their own hands
3:41
I dread to think what may be coming. But it's easy for commentators to complain
3:46
What are the answers? Well, I think they begin with the introduction of compulsory ID cards for all of us
3:52
and without one, no entitlement to public services or benefits. That plus much swifter returns
3:59
And if you think that's too harsh, well, the next stop could be forced mass deportations under another government
4:07
Meanwhile, one of this government's harshest critics is the Shadow Home Secretary
4:10
Chris Philp, who joined me in the studio a little earlier, and I began by asking him
4:14
how worried he was about social cohesion after the trouble in Essex
4:18
Well, the first thing to say is that no matter what the issue, and no matter how strongly
4:22
people feel, violent protest is never justified. And it's, I just call on anyone who's concerned
4:29
about this issue not to use violence when they protest, and I'm sure the police will
4:34
deal with that appropriately if it arises. But this issue is obviously very emotive
4:38
people do feel very strongly about it. I understand why they feel strongly. I feel strongly about it
4:42
as well. You know, record numbers of illegal immigrants crossing the channel. We've seen data around
4:48
people committing, having arrived here illegally, committing serious criminal offences. I think it is up to the government
4:54
to take much tougher action to get this crisis under control. But given all the pressures on
5:00
the police at the moment, will they be able, do you think, to kind of fan across
5:04
the country and to deal with these incidents? Because these hotels are everywhere. Well, the government, I believe, has something like 200 of these hotels operating
5:12
despite the government's promise at the last election to end the use of asylum hotels
5:18
In fact, the number of illegal immigrants in these asylum hotels has actually gone up since the general election
5:24
But look, I do have confidence in the ability of the police to deal with any issues
5:29
But I just repeat what I said at the very beginning. There is no excuse for violent protest
5:33
And no matter how strongly people understandably and rightly feel about this
5:37
They shouldn't be using violence at any of these protests. The number of boats coming across the channel continues to rise
5:43
Well, the number of people coming across the channel certainly continues to rise. Today we've had a new announcement about freezing the assets of people smugglers and banning them from travel into the UK
5:54
Do you think this will have any effect? Andrew, this will make no difference whatsoever
5:59
These people smugglers are making millions and millions of pounds by facilitating illegal immigration
6:04
You know, they don't have assets in the UK that can be frozen. They use informal money transfer systems
6:10
The idea that this or confiscating illegal immigrants' mobile phones or sending a tiny number of people to France
6:16
the idea any of that is going to make the slightest difference is absurd. We all remember Keir Starmer and Yvette Cooper at the time of the last election and afterwards claiming they were going to smash the gangs
6:27
Well, that was exposed as a laughable joke because, as you said, numbers crossing have gone up
6:32
And this year so far, 2025, has been the worst year in history for illegal immigrants crossing the channel
6:39
It's gone up by 52% compared to last year. And that is because of the weak policies, the weak and ineffective policies pursued by Yvette Cooper, Keir Starmer and the Labour government
6:49
Trying to be fair, isn't it possible that the deal with France, which does start small, it's 50 people involved every month, so it's not many
6:56
and the new deal with Germany about the boats that are being stored in Germany
7:01
the engines that are being stored in Germany, might over time pay off
7:05
In other words, it may be that it's too early to declare this is a failure yet
7:09
Well, all of the government's previous claims, like that they were going to smash the gangs, have obviously been a failure
7:13
And the idea that sending 50 people back to France will act as a deterrent is laughable
7:19
because that amounts to only 6% of the arrivals. So this is meant to be a start isn it These numbers are meant to go up They haven even agreed the numbers with France yet And apparently the European Union has a veto So I sceptical we see this get off the ground at all But at these tiny levels it will not have a deterrent effect
7:35
because 94% of the illegal immigrants crossing can stay. Now, there is an alternative, which is to say that there should be a 100% removals deterrent
7:43
where everybody arriving illegally gets removed, either to their country of origin, if possible
7:48
or to a safe third country, if not. And if everybody, or very close to everybody, gets removed upon arrival with no judicial process, then that will act as a deterrent and very quickly people will stop attempting the crossing
8:02
With no judicial involvement, that means getting rid of the Human Rights Act, doesn't it
8:07
It does. Yes, it does. It means disapplying or repealing the Human Rights Act in relation to immigration matters. That is what we should do
8:13
And in fact, I put that to a vote... Would it also mean coming out of the European Convention on Human Rights
8:17
Just to finish the point, I put the repeal of the Human Rights Act for Immigration Matters to a vote in Parliament just a few weeks ago, but Labour voted against it
8:25
It may well also involve coming out of the ECHR itself entirely
8:30
We've got one of the country's top barristers, Lord Wolfson, Casey, looking at that
8:36
He'll report back in September and we'll make an announcement at party conference
8:40
But to be clear, if we need to pull out of the ECHR to protect our country's borders, we'll do it
8:45
I mean, let's be realistic about this. There seems to be absolutely no chance that the Labour Party would accept either of those proposals, either pulled out of the ECHR or to repeal the Human Rights Act. Given that, is there anything else they could be doing
8:59
Well, I mean, they should be doing those things. Because Keir Starmer is ultimately a weak human rights lawyer
9:02
whose strings are being pulled by Lord Hermer, Keir Starmer cares more about ECHR membership
9:08
than he does about controlling our borders, which, by the way, fuels the very social tension that we referred to earlier
9:15
I mean, absent that, he is reliant on, essentially, the French authorities to stop people prior to embarkation
9:21
as the Belgians have done, but so far the French authorities have not done that
9:26
Yet, in your time in government, when the Conservatives were in regard, you wanted to do a deal with the French as well and weren't
9:31
able to get one. They are doing a deal with the French. They have done a deal with the French
9:35
Isn't it possible that, like the Belgians, they will persuade the French to stop this
9:39
Well, they have not done that so far and they've been in office for over a year. I would say that
9:43
in our last full year in office, 2023, we did get the boat numbers down by 30 percent. And we had a
9:50
scheme, a 100 percent removal scheme, ready to go to remove people to Rwanda. But Keir Starmer
9:56
I cancelled that just a few days before it was due to start. It was hugely expensive, hugely controversial
10:02
and you would have had a great deal of difficulty had you been re-elected in getting it up and running, I suspect
10:06
Well, we had actually passed a law through Parliament, the Safety of Rwanda Act, to override a Strasbourg court judgment
10:12
to override our own Supreme Court. Yes, it was controversial, but it was also necessary to protect our borders
10:18
You mentioned the expense. Yes, it was expensive. It would have cost several hundred million pounds
10:22
But let me point out that the current asylum system, And with all these illegal immigrants entering the country, it's costing not a few hundred million, it is costing billions of pounds every single year
10:32
Isn't it possible that by taking a harder and harder line yourselves, you simply get outflanked by reform
10:37
In other words, whatever you say, they will sound tougher than you. It's not a question of trying to outflank anyone politically
10:44
This is a really serious problem our country faces. and what we're doing as a responsible opposition
10:48
is developing credible and carefully sought out solutions to fix this problem that will actually work in practice
10:56
What reform are doing is coming up with slogans. Now, their slogans sound good
10:59
but they don't have the credibility or the detail to actually implement their policies effectively in practice
11:05
We are doing that thinking. For example, the very thoughtful work I mentioned that Lord Wolfson is doing that will report
11:11
in the next couple of months. We're doing the work properly, so when we say something, we know it's actually going to work
11:15
so you're still here after a conservative party reshuffle so congratulations for that
11:21
are you pleased to see Sir James Cleverley back on the front bench? yes I am
11:25
James is a long-standing friend of mine we've worked together for many years in parliament and in government
11:32
we were elected together in 2015 I've known him I think for 25 years
11:36
and I'm glad that he's joined the front bench team and will take the fight to this Labour government
11:42
that has lost control of our borders and is crushing our economy with their appalling tax rises
11:46
You also lost control of the borders as a party. Do you think you have to make a big apology to the country for that
11:52
before they start to look seriously at the proposals that you've been talking about today
11:56
Well, look, on illegal migration, firstly, we did get the numbers down by 30% in 2023
12:01
and we had the Rwanda plan that would have stopped the boats entirely. So I think we actually do have a good story there
12:07
On legal migration, I'm going to be honest, those numbers were far, far too high
12:12
and kemi and i have said openly that was a big big mistake it should never have been by boris johnson
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by the johnson government uh but that should never have been allowed to happen and we have a solution
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to that for the future which is to have a legally binding cap set by parliament voted on by
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parliament at far far lower levels than anything we've seen before so when the limit is reached
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each month we just stop giving out any more visas and the public want the days of mass low-skill
12:37
migration to end and we've got a plan to end them. All right Chris Philp thank you very much indeed
12:42
for coming in. Thank you. Well listening into that was Peter Walsh an expert in UK immigration policy
12:48
at the University of Oxford's Migration Observatory. Peter thanks for joining me. Is it fair to say
12:54
as I implied that all these relatively small modest measures we've had from the government so far
13:00
have had no real impact on the numbers? Well the numbers are clearly going in the wrong direction
13:07
But I also am sympathetic with your point that it may perhaps be too early to determine the Labour government's approach a failure
13:15
And that's because the core of their smash the gangs policy is currently before Parliament in the form of the Border Security Bill
13:23
We're expecting that to become law later this year. That will take a few months to bed in as well
13:29
That's what contains the counter-terror powers, the enhanced powers of seizure and arrest and investigation and so forth
13:35
And so it makes sense, I think, to allow that to bed in and then see in which direction the numbers go
13:41
Yes, we should be cautious. But if the numbers carry on going, as you say, in the wrong direction
13:48
what about these proposals we've got from the Tories about coming out of the Human Rights Act
13:54
disapplying bits of the ECHR and actually sending people back as soon as they arrive on the coast
13:59
Because we're at the situation where something dramatic may be needed. it's really difficult to know what deterrent effect that might be it is true uh that human
14:10
rights and echr actually plays quite an important basis for legal challenges against removal so if
14:18
we were we're not bound by that then removals would be easier these are typically challenges
14:22
on the basis of having families whilst in the uk but putting that aside it's not clear whether that
14:29
would realise a material deterrent impact on small boat arrivals. And what do you make of
14:36
today's announcement? I was a little bit sniffy about it, I have to say, about freezing the assets
14:41
of people smugglers and banning them for travel. Now, you know, good things in principle, but again
14:46
it seems to me it's not a big enough change to actually shift the price of fish, as it were
14:52
It unlikely to be a game changer in my view I mean I must say there a real lack of high quality evidence on what the potential impacts of smuggler sanctions might be We also lack the operational detail required to conduct
15:07
a fair evaluation of likely success or failure. But as you pointed out, one of the big challenges
15:12
is that senior smuggling figures operate in countries that are far beyond
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jurisdictional control of the UK and often in countries with which we have little to no
15:23
law enforcement cooperation countries like afghanistan iran syria and so forth and then the
15:28
other big challenge um is that the financial backbone of smuggling are these informal um
15:36
economic money transfer systems the hawala system which operates wholly outside of the formal
15:43
financial system and has proven very difficult to regulate india and pakistan have both tried to
15:49
ban that with very limited success. So there's a real challenge there too
15:54
Final question, just update us on where we are on legal migration, because as I was hearing
15:59
with the interview with Chris Philp, that has been an enormous issue. And that was something
16:03
the Conservatives were really responsible for after Brexit. Yes, you know, this record
16:10
increase, you know, to 1.2 million immigration, 900,000 net. The last figure suggests that's down
16:18
a quarter on those numbers. Of course, for policy changes that were made not by the current
16:23
government, but by the previous Conservative government, the expectation is that those
16:28
numbers may very well continue to fall as we see fewer visas issued for study for work. The care
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route has been closed down, but we'll find out what the latest statistics are later in the summer
16:40
We sure will. Peter Walsh of the Migration Observatory, thanks very much for joining me
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now coming up we're going to hear the latest from gaza from somebody on the ground there
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and i'll be asking what more the government could be doing to help to bring to an end
16:53
the awful situation there the time now 6 17 lbc Thank you
17:44
Thank you
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...at risk
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Tonight with Andrew Marr. Watch live on both Global Player and the new LBC app
18:36
6.19-ish. The struggling leader of the opposition, Kemi Beidnok, has been reshuffling her shadow cabinet this afternoon
18:45
Many of the names involved will be, frankly, news to you anyway. But she did one thing which I think was shrewd
18:50
She's brought back the man she narrowly beat for the job, Sir James Cleverley
18:55
who's going to be up against the Deputy Prime Minister, Angela Rayner. Now, Cleverley is an experienced guy and a good communicator
19:01
something the Tories do need at a senior level. Let's talk to LBC's political editor, Natasha Clark
19:06
And Natasha, I think more or less in the last minute or two, the details have come out
19:11
So fill us in. Yeah, that's right, Andrew. and I'm just going to list a few names because like you say
19:14
our listeners are not hugely familiar with so many of these people that are on the Tory front benches and I don't think they'll mind
19:19
I wasn't being rude, but it's just true. It's not rude, it's just true. So James Cleverley is joining as Secretary of State
19:23
for Housing, Communities and Local Government. Like you say, he's the most high profile. He will be going up against Angela Rayner
19:28
and there are some Tories that privately think that maybe he might be able to show Kemi Badenock a little bit more
19:32
how it could be done at Prime Minister's questions. Just what some Tories are saying. Kevin Hollenrake is going to become
19:38
the Conservative Party chairman. Neil O'Brien is going to join the Shadow Cabinet as Shadow Minister for Policy Renewal. Stuart Andrew is going to be
19:47
Secretary of State for, sorry, Shadow Secretary of State, rather, for Health. And one name you also
19:51
might remember from the last administration, Richard Holden, coming back to the Shadow Cabinet
19:55
He has been appointed Shadow Secretary of State for Transport. Julia Lopez is going to be Shadow
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Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology. Like I say, lots of names that lots
20:04
of our listeners won't have heard of. But this is Kemi Bade not trying to really beef up her team
20:08
and actually, you know, only eight months into leadership. It's not fantastic that this is exactly where we have
20:14
A Labour source said to me earlier, you know, it basically shows that Kimmy Bade-Duck is already pressing the panic button
20:19
and feels that her leadership is already a little bit fledgling. Now, I wanted to go into the details of Sydney Oatcake, the MP for Grimes Court
20:28
But sadly, we haven't got time for that. Because there's also a really important story involving the Unite Union
20:33
Just fill us in about that. Yeah, it's a very complicated story. it's been going on for so long and lots of allegations flying around
20:39
But essentially under Len McCluskey, the former Unite leader, as union leadership, essentially this very big hotel was built
20:47
It cost millions of pounds. But essentially it appears that the contractor that was involved in this case
20:54
basically overinflated the value of this hotel, Unite's subsidies fees, tens of millions of pounds
21:00
has gone to seemingly a potentially corrupt contractor. So the police are involved, South Wales police are looking at this
21:08
The Sirius Ford Office, we believe, are also looking at this as well. But there's a report today out from the union
21:15
which basically points the finger at the blame at Len McCluskey, says that he does know about it
21:19
And actually, he received lots of freebies, including football tickets and private airfares as well
21:24
A huge, huge story. It's going to be all over our website tomorrow
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all over the newspaper front page. I should say that Len McCluskey denies a lot of this
21:33
but everybody will be agog. Thank you very, very much indeed, Natasha. Now then, when we were discussing migrants a few moments ago
21:39
I suggested that the British state might have had an inflated sense of its own potency
21:45
And that's certainly the case when we turn to Gaza, where the killing goes on
21:49
The Gaza Health Authority, which, yes, is no doubt Hamas-controlled or influenced
21:53
says that 33 people, including 12 children, have died from malnutrition in the past 48 hours
22:00
while the United Nations Relief Agency calls the Israeli-backed private food distribution scheme there
22:05
a sadistic death trap. The Foreign Secretary David Lammy, a thoroughly decent man
22:11
says he is sickened by what's going on and he's threatening further actions
22:14
unless there is a change in Israel's behaviour. As if that's going to happen
22:19
So far, it's all been as effective as shouting at the clouds to make the rain stop
22:24
Isn there anything more we can be doing On arms On trade I don know Let talk now to emily thornbury chair of the foreign affairs select committee emily watching uh david lammy being questioned about this you
22:35
could see the pain in his face you could see the embarrassment in his face he would love to be doing
22:39
more than moving is there really more we is there not more we can do i think if we take i mean the
22:45
trouble is people see the images on television and they and they they write to their mps and they say
22:51
well what are you going to do about this? What can you do about this? And then the MPs go to
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the government and go well what are you going to do about this? You've got to do something about it. And we want to be able to do something but and Israel is an ally but they don't listen to what
23:05
we say. They're completely ignoring us. They don't listen and that we're not used to
23:11
Is there an element of sort of hubris here in Britain that we assume that when Britain stands
23:16
up and says don't do this or do this other countries listen and maybe that's out of date
23:21
Maybe they just don't care about us anymore. No, I don't think that's right. I think that on the whole, there is a point in diplomacy
23:29
and in saying what you think and speaking to your friends and saying, look, speaking as a friend, I think this is the wrong thing to do
23:36
Can we help you on this? You need to find another way. There is a way out of this
23:41
Let's work on this together. That is how international politics works. Sometimes, and perhaps more these days
23:48
you get the big men who say i don't need to listen to anyone i can just go my own way
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but i don't think that there's that will necessarily end well um i think it's one of
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the reasons why we are now working more obviously with other countries so you know so yesterday
24:05
israel was called out not just by britain but by britain plus another 27 i think it was seven
24:10
countries that's right and but you know almost by return of post israel put out a statement on
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social media going, well, we don't agree with any of that. You're divorced from reality
24:24
We're not paying any attention to what all of those countries now say. We've tried sanctioning individuals, and that's had no effect at all. But Europe
24:33
including Britain in this case, is a huge trading partner still for Israel. Is there
24:37
more we could be doing or should be doing in terms of trade embargoes? So I think the question is actually more urgent than that. I think the question
24:47
is what are we going to do now how do we stop these children from either starving to death
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or being shot um huge numbers of people being killed in gaza the the the way in which israel
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is now attacking the one area that uh that has not been attacked until now the humanitarian zone
25:05
where they are um where they have a desalination plant where they will be relying on it for water
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I mean, really Israel needs to be pulled back from the brink
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So I think the question is, how do we stop this? How do we get their attention
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How do we get them to listen to us? So what I would say is, you have to think about where the pressure point is
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So on the 27th of July, the Israeli parliament will rise And so at that point, Netanyahu can kind of do what he wants
25:34
Without his government falling So there is a golden opportunity in a way, at least in the short term
25:40
until the Israeli parliament comes back. So that may be a time when he might be persuaded to have a ceasefire
25:46
without being worried that even further right than him of his government
25:50
would pull the plug on his government. So I think that is the time for Donald Trump
25:55
and it's only Donald Trump that he listens to. Remember, there were planes on the way to Iran that got turned round in the air
26:02
because Donald Trump said turn the planes round. So he really is the only one that he listens to
26:06
I think Donald Trump has to be the one who says, stop now. Stop now. And you have to. There has to be a ceasefire now
26:15
And I think that the only influence that we can really have on Netanyahu is via Trump
26:21
Trump is coming to play golf. So what I would suggest strongly is that, you know, I appreciate that Keir Starmer has a lot of things you may want to talk to the President of the United States about
26:33
But I would ask that some of our political capital be used in asking Trump, speak to Netanyahu to get him to stop this, because we can't witness this anymore. It has to stop
26:46
Emily Thornberry, thank you very much indeed. Now, listening to that was Rachel Cummings from Save the Children, who is herself in Gaza now
26:55
Rachel, I guess the first thing I have to do is to ask you to give us an update
26:59
We've had these appalling scenes of people being shot while they're trying to get food
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We know that children have been dying from malnutrition. We know that a lot of your colleagues, a lot of doctors and aid workers are also in a bad way now
27:11
Just update me. Well, the situation is catastrophic. It's catastrophic for children
27:18
There are children dying from malnutrition, but two million people in Gaza are on the brink of famine
27:26
For five days straight in Darabala, there has been no food in the market
27:30
Now, my team, I've over 200 staff in my team. They have money in their bank accounts
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They have some money in their pocket even. And yet they're unable to buy any food
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The markets are completely bare. So there will be an increase in the number of children dying from malnutrition
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And, of course, without clean water, with the poor sanitation, the infrastructure damage, we have open sewage in the streets
27:55
Children are getting very sick very quickly. And with malnutrition, you can die very, very quickly
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So yesterday, the evacuation orders in Dharalbaugh affected between 50,000, 70,000 people
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Of course, there's nowhere left for people to go and there's nowhere safe in Gaza for people
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So people making impossible decisions being, I have nowhere to go, therefore I have to stay, knowing that I am now in an evacuation area
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Rachel, I have to put you you know what the Israeli government
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say when they hear reports of the kind you've just given us
28:33
it's all Hamas dominated this is Hamas propaganda you can't really believe what's going on there
28:39
we are trying to avoid any civilian casualties, there have been accidents
28:43
but no more than that, don't listen to these people, what do you say to people listening
28:47
who are genuinely agonised about what to believe? Well, it's impossible to understand, I guess, the brutality that's being placed upon the children in Gaza. Last week
29:02
Save the Children runs temporary learning spaces in Kanunis and Darabala. We provide some education
29:08
for some children in Gaza. We know what we do is not enough. Now, last week, five children
29:14
from our temporary learning spaces were killed in different separate airstrikes. The week before
29:21
three children all of them children under 11 years old just living their lives by their camps by their
29:29
tents with their families killed their lives taken away so this is real I see it with my own eyes
29:36
I visit the clinics I work with the teams in the communities everyone in Gaza is exhausted everyone
29:42
is visibly thin and we see children with very very poorly malnutrition coming to our clinics
29:49
This is very real. It's happening right in front of my eyes. Rachel, all I can say is in a very glib, sugary way, stay safe
29:59
And thank you. much indeed for bringing us that report. Much appreciated. Thank you
30:03
Now, coming up, it's been confirmed that a five-day doctor's strike will go ahead from Friday
30:09
I'll find out what strain that could put on an already struggling NHS. Plus, I'll hear from one
30:14
of Gordon Brown's key lieutenants on the current situation the Chancellor finds herself in
30:19
But the time now is 6.31, and Amelia Cox has your news headlines
30:23
A report into historical fraud allegations at Unite has claimed its former boss enjoyed perks
30:28
paid for by a company building a major project for the union
30:33
Len McCluskey travelled using private jet and was given football tickets by the Flanagan Group
30:38
His lawyers claim he paid for them himself. Strikes by resident doctors in England are going ahead
30:44
after failing to reach any agreement with the health secretary. Members of the British Medical Association
30:49
are walking out for five days from Friday in a row of a pay, which we're treating as described as reckless
30:55
And the chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee has told LBC Israel just doesn't listen after being condemned by the UK and 27 other countries
31:04
Emily Thornberry has been speaking on tonight with Andrew Marr following a statement criticizing
31:09
the killing of Palestinians as they try to seek food. LBC weather cloudy with some light rain in
31:14
northwest Scotland. Isolated showers elsewhere tonight but more frequent in southwest Wales and
31:19
England a low of 11 degrees. LBC this morning on Nick Ferrari at breakfast. Israel launched
31:26
substantial air raids and a ground operation targeting the area in Gaza that is the main
31:30
hub for humanitarian aid and efforts. This all came a day after the highest death toll in 21
31:35
months inflicted by the IDF, Israel Defense Force on Palestinians seeking food aid
31:40
Foreign Secretary David Lammy. I regret hugely that I've not been able to bring this horrendous
31:45
war to an end. But it's my hope that after the Knesset rises on the 28th of July, we will see
31:52
the Israeli government and Hamas move to a ceasefire in August. This war has got to come to an end
31:59
Nick Ferrari at breakfast. Back tomorrow morning from 7. Listen on your radio on Global Player and the new LBQ
32:22
Thank you
32:52
Thank you
33:52
markets, and you may very well have thought, there goes old Ma again, being his bonnet. What does he
33:58
know? Well, I say this gently, but this morning, government borrowing in June reached the second
34:04
highest level since records began in 1993, more than £20 billion, numbers not seen since the
34:11
worst days of the pandemic, and nearly £4 billion more than expected. And part of the reason for the
34:18
extra borrowing, well, the cost of borrowing, with interest rate payments also sky high. Borrow
34:25
and then borrow again to pay for the cost of the borrowing. And after that, you have to do it again
34:30
do it more. I fear if this isn't gripped very quickly, we're being pulled into a kind of
34:35
financial whirlpool. I'm joined now by Lord Stuart Wood, who served on Gordon Brown's Council
34:41
of Economic Advisers at the Treasury and had the current Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, in front of his
34:46
Economic Affairs Committee in the Lords this very afternoon, Stuart. Very good of you to come in
34:51
Nice to see you, Andrew. Are you as concerned about how close we are to the edge with the bond markets
34:57
I mean, there's definitely an issue here. There is an issue which is caused by the fact that growth is..
35:02
Rachel Rees a year ago would have expected growth to be stronger, interest rates to come down quicker
35:07
And she's also given herself the so-called fiscal buffer, the headroom that she's got before she starts
35:12
spending more than her rules and tax revenues allow, but her buffer is very, very slim. So
35:17
there's a lot of sensitivity there. So, every time we have monthly figures, either on inflation
35:23
growth, or in this case, borrowing, that go against the fiscal buffer, that make that headroom
35:29
even slimmer, more pressure is exerted. She can't react until the budget, it seems to me. The budget
35:35
is her next moment. And I suspect the bond markets will want evidence of some serious intent, either
35:41
in terms of cutting spending or raising taxes or doing something innovative around borrowing
35:46
which doesn't frighten them even more. Increasingly, it's looking like some combination of those
35:51
is where she's going to have to be. But I suspect we'll still be in a sort of squeaky territory
35:56
month on month until we get to the budget. Now, she's, of course, famously made some big pledges
36:01
about the taxes she isn't going to raise, like income tax and VAT. And that leaves a series of
36:06
on a smaller things like, for instance, equalising tax on investment income as capital gains tax as
36:13
compared to a normal income tax, possibly a bank levy, possibly a banking tax. Did you get any
36:19
indication at all, even a kind of half wink or a half smile from her about what she might do
36:25
She did her job very well today by saying absolutely nothing. And she made the point
36:29
that the minute she says no to one of these taxes beyond the manifesto commitments that she's locked
36:34
down the minute she says no to the next one we assume that when she doesn't say no to the next
36:39
one she means yes and she explained that rather well in fact in answer to a question from a former
36:43
chancellor lord lamont who i think riley admitted that that's how he would have done it as well even
36:47
though he wasn't happy with her answer so i think what we're in this sort of horrible cycle for your
36:52
chancellor where every day a newspaper or a journalist such as yourself perhaps puts up a
36:58
new tax candidate that she might do something with the treasury says we don't comment and that just
37:03
allows speculation to keep going. So every day we've got another wealth tax would cost X
37:07
mansion tax would cost X dividend tax would cost X But I think it more and more likely that some taxes outside I don think they will compromise personally the ones that they protected in the manifesto But what that means is you going to have to press hard
37:18
on probably two or three other ones to get the kind of revenue that the fiscal moment will demand
37:23
It is going to be a moment. Do you think there's any chance at all that she would stand up and say
37:27
in the election, I promised not to do this, this and this
37:31
Since then, we've had Donald Trump and his tariffs. Since then, you know, the Putin war has got worse and worse
37:37
since then we've had all the issues in the house of commons i therefore have to break one of those
37:42
promises but i am you know an honorable person i'm going to stand down as chancellor and let
37:46
somebody else take over and we'd all say what a wonderful you know principled honest woman and
37:52
she would get out she'd get written out of that trap any chance of that or is that just a kind of
37:56
romantic journalistic fantasy i think it's a romantic journalistic fantasy one you've clearly
38:00
thought about quite a lot i i i think i think there had been moments in the last year when
38:05
if you'd have been a Chancellor under pressure looking for more room, you could have pivoted and said
38:11
look, this is a crisis of the likes of which we didn't anticipate. And it's true
38:15
And it's true, actually. In fact, she's had a lot more, whether you're sympathetic to her politics or not
38:20
she has had a lot of crises to deal with that came out of the stratosphere that she didn't anticipate
38:24
And so there could have been moments to make that pivot to create that space. Striking that she hasn't done that
38:28
striking that at the moment she's not building a narrative of how different things have been since she took office
38:34
She's clearly still in the narrative that she inherited a slight basket case of an economy
38:39
which divides opinion whether that's true or not. But she's not preparing the ground for exactly the pivot you don't
38:43
So it doesn't feel to me like she is going to do that. Yes, there's quite narrow sort of boundaries or barriers for her on both sides
38:50
on the tax side, but also on the spending side. That's right. We just had those big revolts in the House of Commons
38:55
And it seems to me that she's going to try and stay within those boundaries for as long as she can
38:59
It does. The one thing we did get out of her today, well, didn't get out of her, But her tone on the benefits reform was clearly she still feels that there is more work to be done in some way in terms of rein in benefits
39:10
Because in terms of the bond markets, one of the things that people are beginning to say in the city is this may not be a government which really has a proper control over public spending
39:20
You see these huge increases in the benefits bill, particularly around sickness benefits and so on
39:25
And at some point, Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves are going to have to confront the Labour Party again about this
39:31
I think there's no doubt about that. I don't think it will be on the same issue, but I think there will have to be a confrontation about some key elements of spend
39:38
The problem the government has is that they've just launched this three-year spending plan
39:43
And so they're not set in stone. And it will be credibility damaging to revisit them so soon in the budget after you've had the three-year plan announced just at the beginning of the summer
39:52
But I think there will have to be some fights between the government and Labour backbenchers in the next few months or couple of years, definitely
39:59
And a final question. I rather like Rachel Reeves, I have to say, as a person. But she is loathed across large parts of the Labour Party now. When she walks into the House of Commons, she knows that almost everybody in there is against her for one reason or another. She had that breakdown. She came broke down in tears, famously. What did you make of her demeanour? She's quite a tough cookie in the end, I suspect
40:21
but she's extremely tough she was very disciplined with her message she wasn't going to give us any
40:26
sort of extemporizing or ad-libbing i think a job of a labor chancellor in tough times is
40:31
inevitably going to involve you becoming unpopular with your backbenchers to some extent and she's
40:35
going to make her peace with that maybe i'm not sure which she's made a piece i'm not sure you can ever make a piece with it i work for gordon brown who who had easier times but still not like
40:42
many backbenchers it's not it's not an easy job it's not the job that you do to uh to please
40:47
backbenchers. But I think the payoff, if it comes, makes the pain much more worthwhile than
40:52
another job. So she'll hope that she has a longer life as a chancellor than the one you're suggesting
40:57
earlier on. And in terms of the grand strategy, it's still presumably to hope that all the
41:02
investment spending, which has come in from abroad, to hope that the investment in infrastructure
41:07
and so on, within a couple of years begins to pay off. And if they just kind of stay the course
41:12
grit their teeth and don't flex, then they can get through this. It's certainly that. It's
41:17
also that the reforms which often don't get the same attention but which today she's clearly is
41:21
very passionate about in terms of slimlining the planning regimes in terms of making it easier
41:26
for banks to pursue growth in terms of making it easier for people to put their money into the
41:31
equity market rather than just savings accounts she wants those things to happen tomorrow as as
41:35
soon as possible she thinks they will change the dial she's frustrated that parliament's taking a
41:40
long time with some of these bills because she wants them to happen tomorrow a lot of her future
41:44
reputation will hang on how successful those supply side reforms actually are and how quickly
41:49
they deliver. Lord Wood, Stuart Wood, very interesting. Thank you so much for that. Now
41:54
it was announced this afternoon that strikes by resident doctors in England are going ahead
42:00
after failing to reach any agreement with the health secretary. Members of the British Medical
42:04
Association are going to be walking out for five days from Friday in a row over pay which
42:09
Wes Streeting has described as reckless. So what effect could this have on the NHS? Let's hear now
42:15
from Dr Simon Ofer, a practising GP and also the Labour MP for Stroud. Simon, very good to have you
42:21
on the show again. First of all, what do you make of the confrontation between the resident doctors
42:26
We used to call them junior doctors on the one hand and Wes on the other. This is a really unfortunate decision because I think that resident doctors did get a pretty
42:36
generous pay increase when we first came to power and then to come back
42:42
to get more. I mean they've been the highest paid sort of public sector worker
42:46
for the last two years actually the biggest increases in their pay
42:50
anyway. So I just think it's a bit unfortunate and I think you know I don't think the BMA would lose anything just
42:56
by delaying the strikes and carrying on with negotiations which were apparently
43:00
going quite well with West Streeting. So I feel sad about this because I think any strike in from doctors is is is inevitably going to to harm
43:10
patient care and they're also saying now that for senior doctors and consultants to try to cover
43:18
them is going to endanger the public what do you make of that I don't think that's true so I think
43:23
I think what we're going to do with the NHS is that always urgent care is looked after so you
43:29
know if you've got a really emergency need it will be looked after so the public don't need to worry
43:34
about that. I think what we're going to do slightly different to the Tories when there are
43:39
strikes with them is that if there's an urgent what they call elective procedure so that's something
43:43
that doesn't have to happen there and then but needs to happen in the next few days so whether
43:47
that's a cancer operation or something like that we're going to try and persist with those because
43:52
they're the sort of things that if you delay you get much worse outcomes so we're trying to
43:56
prioritise patient care and I don't think that's reckless I think that most people would agree
44:01
That's a good thing to do and try and actually minimise harm to the public from all this strike action
44:11
I think people listening will think that is indeed very sensible. One of the ways the government wants to be judged by the public in general across the board is by waiting lists Does this strike really scupper West Streetings and the government hopes for getting waiting lists down in the course of this year and next I don think it scuppers it entirely I think I mean if the strikes continue over a longer
44:35
period, that will certainly really harm that, I think. And, you know, I think that what you tend
44:41
to lose in a resident doctor's strike, particularly the outpatient appointment and routine surgery
44:47
like knee or hip surgery that can wait. So those over a longer period will start to worsen, definitely
44:57
So, yeah, we really want to sort this out. And I think Wes actually has been a pretty good health secretary
45:04
compared to, I remember back in 2016 with Jeremy Hunt, he wouldn't even speak to junior doctors
45:10
Wes has gone bent over backwards to try and sort of talk to them about other things
45:15
And I thought it was quite constructive what he was talking about in terms of there's a few bottlenecks, for example, in resident doctor training where a number of them are trying to get through
45:25
And so he was talking about career progression. Exactly. Career progression. And also he's talking about student loans
45:31
I mean, student doctors qualify with these enormous loans. And I think there was some talk about, you know, maybe looking at that and making that easier for resident doctors as well
45:41
I think what's not on the table is another large pay increase, simply because that's just not fair on the rest of the NHS, actually
45:52
It's very interesting, as you rightly say. I mean, he's really bent over backwards to offer this, to offer that, you know, and he's put a lot of time into it
45:59
And he's been more or less got a slap across the face. Can you explain, there is clearly a sense of rising militancy inside the BMA over the last few years, but we're particularly noticing it at the moment
46:10
Do you know where that comes from? Are you surprised by it? Are you worried by it
46:14
No, I don't really know. I mean, weirdly, I am a member of the BMA as well
46:18
And I know that having spoken to some junior doctors, that it's not it's not universally supported
46:24
There's some people feel quite embarrassed by the strike, etc. I don't know where the strong militancy is
46:30
I think for a long period, I mean, for 14 years, actually, most of workers in the NHS were their pay did deteriorate
46:38
deteriorate and i think resident doctors did have a you know a case in point uh when we first came
46:43
to power a year ago i think their pay had really deteriorated and i think one of the problems with
46:48
what jeremy hunt did which was pushed through impose a deal on on resident doctors it was a
46:54
really noticeable shift in attitude to resident doctors at that time and i i remember feeling i
47:00
mean people i i was a trainer of junior doctors and there was a change in attitude they wouldn't
47:05
stay later than their hours at that point because they felt really
47:09
hard done by. So whether there's that militancy from that, I don't know
47:13
It may well go back to that. I always enjoy our conversations, Dr Ofer. Thank you very, very much for that one
47:20
Now then, coming up, the US Justice Department has asked Ghislaine Maxwell, the long-time associate
47:25
of the disgraced financier, Jeffrey Epstein, for a meeting with its prosecutor
47:30
I'll hear from the investigative journalist who went hunting Ghislaine to hear what he makes of the latest twist in
47:35
this very long-running saga you're listening to tonight with andrew on the time now 6 48
47:40
coming up at seven ian dale leading britain's conversation next on lbc
48:05
Thank you
48:35
Thank you
49:05
This is LBC Tonight with Andrew Marr
49:25
6.50. Ghislaine Maxwell, who's serving a 20-year jail term for crimes which include child sex trafficking
49:32
has been asked by the US Justice Department to speak to prosecutors
49:36
about what she knew of Jeffrey Epstein and his associates. Now, you might think she had already spoken to prosecutors
49:43
which might be why she is serving 20 years in jail in the first place
49:47
But I guess this just goes to show that this is a story which, with President Trump under pressure still from his own supporters
49:53
to release more information, just will not go away. I began by asking John Sweeney, author of Hunting Ghislaine
50:01
to remind us of the background. Yes, so she's the daughter of Robert Maxwell, who was a monster ogre figure who ruled the Daily Mirror Group back in the 80s
50:13
He falls off his yacht in 91, almost certainly suicide in my view
50:19
And she leaves one monster in her life, her father, who was a horrible human being to everybody, including her
50:27
And she finds a second monster, Jeffrey Epstein. And he is a paedophile
50:32
He's got a thing about 14, 15, 16-year-old girls, and she facilitates, she produces these girls
50:39
often they're poor, in American terms, trailer trash, and sets up a kind of industrial-scale pimping
50:47
So she's the pimp or the madam or both? She's the madam and she's the pimp
50:51
and because her father was a horrible man to her and may possibly have even sexually abused her
50:57
certainly psychologically abused her, she's also something of a victim. And that's part of her tragedy
51:03
But the story has now moved on because she was convicted and has got a 20-year sentence
51:11
So she's in prison. Now, what Trump said when he wasn't in power, and the MAGA base loved this conspiracy story like there's no tomorrow
51:22
was that there was a whole bunch of other paedophiles who Epstein was protecting and he was blackmailing them
51:32
And there is a list And this list they hope includes lots of prominent Democrats and sort of liberal financiers and the people they hate in the first place Yes Now the problem with the story is that there is a kernel of truth in that Epstein was a very rich paedophile and he was a Democrat
51:52
But that's pretty much where it ends. the evidence that the feds got pointed at gillen maxwell and a very small circle around her but she
52:03
was the the prime pimp but in terms of other powerful men there wasn't any evidence that
52:10
they were talking about including we should say donald trump himself who was clearly a friend of
52:14
epstein for a while he's you know filmed with him laughing and joking for a long long time but it's
52:19
worse than that andrew he wasn't just a friend he was somebody who said that there was an interview
52:24
with New York magazine, not New Yorker, in 2002, which Trump said, so Jeffrey, he likes beautiful women
52:32
just as much as I do, and sometimes a little on the younger side. He said that? Yeah, yeah, in 2002
52:40
So that points to it. 2003, it's just come out. It's Epstein's 50th birthday, and Trump sends a kind
52:48
of saucy, kind of drawing in the form of a naked woman. We should say he completely
52:54
denies this. He says, I don't even do drawings and this is not my words
52:57
And he's suing Wall Street Journal for $10 billion. And somebody called Rupert Murdoch
53:03
And by the way, yes. I know you, so I've been out of the country and suddenly you're hitting
53:10
me with Scottish irony. Well done. Yeah. That's a fascinating court case
53:18
because there's lots of evidence that Trump does do drawings and And the source of that, by the way, could well have been Ghislaine Maxwell
53:27
because it was she who compared the book. We've been enjoying ourselves so much, we haven't told people what the message said
53:34
It was, gosh, it was so revolting, I've switched my mind off it
53:41
but it was a drawing of a girl. It was a drawing of a naked woman, and it was wishing Jeffrey Epstein happy birthday
53:49
so and that happened in 2003 2004 they fall out the big point here is that yes
53:57
Trump did hang out with the Epsteins for a very long time
54:01
from about 92 till 2003 so more than a decade 13 years something like this
54:08
but they fall out but there's no evidence at all and Clinton was another big pal
54:16
that they actually were interested in having sex with 13, 14, 15-year-olds
54:22
And the problem Donald Trump has, believe that, and they wonder why he's not letting it out
54:27
which is, again, perhaps why they're going back to Ghislaine Maxwell and saying, can we talk to you
54:32
Yes, there's another complexity or another detail here in that Maureen Comey, who was the prosecutor
54:37
and she was very, very good, and her witnesses that she produced in court were very good
54:44
and the jury convicted Ghislaine Maxwell. She resigned the other day. and it's possible the reason why she resigned was because what the trump people want to hear
54:53
is there's more dirt serious dirt to come and i don't think so i think that um epstein was an evil
55:02
man but he was clever and i do not think there is a list of blackmail victims i don't think he
55:08
worked like that no smoking guns john thank you very much indeed and now for something completely
55:14
different. The government has signed a big deal with the company which brought us ChatGPT
55:19
OpenAI, to use much more artificial intelligence to help public services all around the UK
55:25
It'll give OpenAI access to official data and its software will be used by schools
55:30
the security services and in the justice system. Peter Kyle, the technology secretary
55:35
says that AI will now be fundamental in driving our economic growth. Now, I say it's a big deal
55:40
because it sounds like a big deal, but we actually don't know any of the details
55:44
how much money is being paid over, what the privacy guarantees are, and much else besides
55:49
Let's talk, however, to LBC's technology correspondent, Will Guyatt. Will, good to see you again, albeit without your bright green spectacles, which is a disappointment
55:58
Can I ask, first of all, whether you know any more about this
56:02
You know the scale of it, any more financial details coming out yet? No, but it's interesting this has been announced a week or so after a deal with Google was announced
56:10
And the deal with Google, because no money changed hands, the government are basically giving Google access to a lot of government services
56:17
Everybody was up in arms saying, well, how come Google got this and nobody else got a chance to pitch for it
56:21
And the response from the government was, well, no money was changing hands, so we didn't have to have a competitive tender
56:26
But what's happening here is the government appears to be at an unparalleled level opening up everything to AI companies
56:35
If it's going, as it said, AI is going to tackle some of the country's biggest problems
56:40
they're going to need access to all the data, Andrew. And what happens with that data, like you said, we don't know
56:46
Once it's sucked up by the large language model owned by OpenAI, can OpenAI use it elsewhere
56:52
Can they sell that data and information to other people? I expect not
56:57
But there's an awful lot of hope and trust in a set of systems that are less than a couple of years old
57:03
we've seen huge amounts of problems with so-called hallucinations or mistakes when AI tools get stuff
57:10
wrong and there's also the fact that our government yet is not admitting that jobs will be lost
57:14
in government and civil service as a result of these tools being employed so there are many
57:19
questions here it's like a poor chat GPT answer what the government has dished out on this they've
57:24
got excited about the fact it's coming and want to show the UK getting all in on AI but they've
57:29
given us none of the important detail that people deserve. So fair to say, in short, we need, we
57:35
deserve a franker conversation about this. We do, and we should have it. Will Guy, thank you very
57:40
very much indeed for that. Now, I will be back with you tomorrow, but if you've missed any of
57:45
today's show, you can listen back on Catch Up on both Global Player and the LBC app, where you can
57:50
read and watch the latest from LBC. So download that official LBC app for free from your app store
57:56
now. Coming up at 10 on LBC it's Henry Riley but right now it's time for Ian Dale. Thanks Andrew
58:03
Deputy Prime Minister Angela Rayner has entered the debate on immigration policy in an attempt to
58:08
show that Labour understands the concerns that many people have about the levels of immigration
58:13
in this country. But given Labour's record over the last year and that of the Tories over previous
58:18
years can either of the two main parties although maybe I shouldn't call them that now be trusted
58:24
on immigration. On cross-question at eight, Labour MP Natasha Irons, Jack Elson, political editor of
58:30
The Sun, Baroness Arlene Foster, former First Minister of Northern Ireland, and Anne McElvoy from Politico
58:36
At nine, Brewdog are closing ten of their biggest bars. On average, one pub shuts
58:40
every week. Why is this happening and what can be done to reverse the trend
58:44
Is it actually our fault for staying in more
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