0:00
I put it to him that from the outside, it seems as if the West has never really been able to put effective pressure on Israel about the future of Gaza
0:07
Does he agree? Well, look, it's been a long time since there's been any hope in the Middle East
0:12
I worked for two Democratic presidents, Presidents Clinton and Biden. And I have to admit that the last time I remember an American president having influence
0:22
Now, this is the crucial point on both Israelis and Palestinians. Being popular among both Israelis and Palestinians was back in the Clinton days
0:32
when President Clinton was respected and trusted in Israel. And the Palestinians knew that he was aiming to get a big peace agreement
0:42
That's what Camp David was all about. It failed. Ever since then, whether it's been Obama or Bush or Trump or even Biden to a degree, the Palestinians have left out, while the Israeli relationship has remained very, very strong
1:00
You know, most of the world would love to see us, the United States, use all our influence on Israel, all our pressures, you know, military assistance, sanctions, all that stuff
1:10
That just doesn't happen between close friends and allies. sometimes we've used rhetoric to disagree with them and that can work and things were getting
1:20
better during the biden period on on gaza but unfortunately our election came in the way well
1:27
tell me a little bit about the plan that never happened which was effectively as i understand it
1:31
an independent gaza or at least an independently policed gaza neither hamas nor israeli and you
1:39
came quite close, you think, to a deal over that. And tell us also about the role of Tony Blair in
1:44
that. Terrific. So, look, Tony Blair has been working on peace in the Middle East, you know
1:50
since I first met him as prime minister back in the in the 90s And he very well known to all the leaders of the region and respected and trusted by many of them And sometimes in diplomacy you want to use back channels not have everything done directly
2:07
because other countries, when they're talking to the United States, are reluctant to talk hypothetically
2:13
because they don't want to get locked into some position. So that's where back channels could be useful
2:19
And they were useful. And what we're talking about here is figuring out how to deal with this conundrum
2:26
that the Israelis are never again going to let Hamas be in charge of Gaza
2:31
And yet the Palestinians want all the Israelis gone. So what do you do? How do you provide security
2:39
How do you prevent Hamas from rebuilding? So it again becomes a threat to Israel
2:44
And so Tony Blinken, not Tony Blair, Tony Blinken, developed a proposal with the assistance of many different people, including the Israeli government, including the UAE government, including Tony Blair, including other officials who know a lot about this, as a way of developing an international force, not a U.N. force
3:06
That's crucial because the Israelis don't trust the United Nations. And we had developed a plan for an international force to go into place between the Israelis and the Palestinians
3:16
And my bet is that if we ever get to a time when this war is going to end, the solution is going to look much like that
3:24
Because the Israelis can never allow Hamas to rebuild. And the Palestinians can't have Hamas running the show
3:32
So you need some international support so that local Palestinians and the Palestinian Authority can rebuild this terrible tragedy of a place
3:43
And right now, as we're speaking, Donald Trump's in Saudi. He's going to be talking to the Gulf states as well
3:50
And those were all people who at different times have expressed an interest in being involved in that kind of solution Do you think there is the slightest chance that there be some kind of breakthrough On this trip I wouldn put any money on it
4:05
This is a business trip for the president. It's pretty clear if you look at the list of business
4:10
leaders on the trip, this is about business. This isn't about peace in the Middle East. And frankly
4:16
it's going to take a lot more than one visit to get to peace in Gaza. We are a long, long
4:21
long way from that. But you're correct that some of the Saudi and UAE and Qatari and Egyptian and
4:31
Jordanian leaders know that they need to be part of assisting the Palestinians in coming up with
4:38
a solution. And that's why it's so complicated. You know, when Henry Kissinger, everyone talks
4:44
about the great Kissinger days. And one of my friend columnist Tom Friedman pointed out, you
4:49
Kissinger had to talk to three people. He had to talk to Golda Meir and Anwar Sadat and the leader of Syria, Hafez Assad
4:59
To do something today, you need to be dealing with dozens and dozens of individual leaders that represent either the Arab world, the Palestinians, the Israelis
5:10
And it's much, much more complicated. It's a lot harder. And this Gaza problem is the devil of a problem to figure out how to end the suffering, which I think certainly our administration wanted to
5:23
Well, certainly ending the suffering has become very urgent at the moment because all the aid agencies who are in there say that they are very, very close to the edge of real starvation, a proper famine in Gaza
5:35
The bakeries have closed, the food distribution centers have closed, and they're genuinely running out of water
5:40
What do you think can be done to persuade the Israelis to start to let in convoys
5:46
That's a good question. I think that humanitarian law is very clear on this that it the Israelis responsibility to make sure that the people in Gaza have the food medicine and shelter they need to survive Unfortunately Israel relationship with many
6:05
of the leaders of international organizations, like the United Nations, are awful for a whole
6:10
bunch of reasons. And so it's really European leaders and the United States have the best
6:16
chance of persuading Israelis to make the changes necessary to get that food and medicine to the
6:22
people. But I should also add, and this is often forgotten, you know, Israel is a complicated place
6:27
There are many, many, many people I know in the leadership of their security apparatus
6:31
the Israeli military, the Israeli intelligence services, who also want to get food and medicine
6:37
to the people of Gaza, because they know that if this goes on indefinitely, you're creating
6:41
hundreds of thousands of more potential terrorists for the future, and that it's a security and a
6:47
legal responsibility for the Israelis to get food and medicine in. I can't answer the question of
6:54
what will do it, but I think that's the best approach. But you would agree that what's going
6:59
on now and indeed full-scale famine in Gaza would be an absolutely serious, possibly existential
7:05
threat to the future of the Israeli state at some point in the future? Well, I think what it would
7:12
be is a disaster for the people of the Palestinians. You know, we used to say that
7:18
until Israelis understand how much Palestinians are suffering, and until Palestinians and Arabs
7:25
understand about the security requirements of Israel growing out of the Holocaust
7:31
that there's never going to be peace here. The Palestinian people are suffering because of Hamas
7:36
Remember, the Israelis woke up one morning, Hamas attacked them from the south
7:41
and the Hezbollah attacked them from the north. Now, what they've done in response
7:45
obviously many of the things they've done are unacceptable and unforgivable, but they were responding to a decision by Hamas
7:53
to start a war that's caused this disaster
