Up next in 10
Sir Keir Starmer is reportedly ready to reverse changes to the winter fuel allowance cut as soon as next month.
00:00 Peter in West Hampstead thinks the U-turn would show ‘dignity and statesmanship’.
02:30 Shaun in Frome takes aim at Labour’s strategy-makers.
08:07 Shaun in Essex doesn’t want a U-turn, he wants reformation on the policy.
10:51 John in Kilcardy believes Labour are damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
13:31 David in Cheltenham doubts Starmer’s political ‘nouse’
15:21 Nick in Holland Park thinks this says more about the public than the government.
Focus groups allegedly revealed voters could see Labour in a better light if they did a partial or full U-turn.
The decision comes as Labour MPs claimed the policy was "kryptonite" during local election doorstep campaigning.
The government is considering increasing the £11,500 income cap which is currently set for the payment, according to reports.
Downing Street is also discussing reversing the policy altogether - but this is highly unlikely.
Changes to the policy could be announced as soon as June.
This comes as the government faces a rebellion, the newspaper reports, as more than 100 Labour MPs have signed a letter voicing their concerns about welfare cuts.
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0:00
Peter in West Hampton, good afternoon
0:01
Hi. Well, what would it say? I think what it would say is
0:06
if you make a mistake and you put your hand up and you make a U-turn
0:11
that shows statesmanship and dignity. What I think the answer to this is
0:15
you have a sliding scale. Forever having these guillotines, which drop at a certain level
0:24
if somebody earns more than, what did you say it was, 11,500
0:28
Yes, correct. OK, under that is 350. If you earn up to, I don't know what, 15,000, it drops to 300. If you earn between 15 and 20,000, it drops to the next level down and so on
0:43
And then you don't get the ridiculous situation that you get with housing benefits. And there's rules of change since I was involved, whereby you have a precipice. You have a savings of so much and bang, the whole thing switches off
0:59
which is catastrophic. Could you see Margaret Thatcher doing a U-turn like this
1:04
If she reckoned that she was definitely wrong, I don't think she had the wisdom to actually admit it
1:10
or to actually even see it. But this is a misjudgment, I think
1:15
because it's not a sliding scale. If it was a sliding scale
1:20
then I don't think there would be any call for a U-turn. It would be fair. But it's not fair
1:25
You earn $11,500 one week. Next week, your income goes up. And then, bang, the whole lot goes
1:33
So it's been ill thought through, Peter? It's been not thought through
1:38
Yeah, it's been ill thought through in the first place when they introduced it. Do you think, Peter, to be blunt about it
1:45
do you think that the fact that Sir Keir Starmer's net favourability rating
1:48
has sunk to minus 46 has got anything to do with this? I think he's absolutely terrified of reform
1:57
Who's running the country, Peter? Who's running the country here? Nigel Farage
2:00
It does look a bit like that. But I think this bubble could burst. We've seen this before
2:06
Do you remember, who was that guy who was running the Liberal Democrats and he said after an election
2:12
go back to your constituency and prepare for government? That's right, that's right, absolutely
2:19
It could blow up. People see the local elections to some extent and by elections
2:25
as a chance where they can vote for whatever they want because it's not actually going to change much nationally
2:30
Sean in Froome, good afternoon. Hi, Ali, how are you? Very well, sir, what would you like to say
2:35
Well, what's going on at Milbank? I'm a bit confused. Whoever's running Labour's strategy
2:41
needs a good talking to, to be perfectly frank. First of all, they introduce these policies
2:46
which are patently not going to be popular with the public. And then they go and, I mean, I think strategically
2:53
were they to get rid of the policy with regard to winter fuel allowance, it would help some, but fiddling around with bans
3:01
and some people get it, some people don't, that ain't going to cut through with the public
3:05
It needs to be reversed completely and start from scratch. Sean, given the fact that they have expended
3:12
so much political capital over this by digging their heels in, do you think that any reversal of any kind
3:18
be it a complete scrapping of the policy or indeed trying to change the threshold
3:24
or trying to taper it in some way so that there's not a hard cut-off point at £11,500 anymore
3:32
Do you think anyone's going to give this government a blind bit of credit for doing it? I think they would
3:37
I think what Starmer needs to do is hold his hand up, say, I've been around the country, I was out campaigning
3:42
I've heard on the doorstep what you think, I've listened, and I'm taking action
3:47
I mean, over the last week, you were talking about the immigration policy. That's another one where I'm thinking to myself
3:52
this is nuts, because they're talking, And Farage is talking about illegal immigration
3:58
Yeah. And Starmer is talking about legal immigration. I mean, Farage is talking about both
4:02
Farage is talking about both, to be fair. Well, yeah, but the motive issue is him standing at Dover
4:07
That is true. I know that. Coming across the channel. And so you can faff around with legal immigration as much as you want
4:16
You can take that right down to 240,000. That's not going to stop Farage from standing on the cliffs of Dover
4:23
saying they're still coming over. So you know to get I mean what he done unfortunately as you I think you were alluding to he gone and parked his tanks on Farage lawn which is exactly what Farage was Farage is the puppet master Farage is basically calling all the tunes at the moment
4:41
But to be fair, Jordan, to be fair, to be fair, to Stalman, and I will give him this credit
4:46
I've been talking about immigration for the last 25 years and no one's taken it seriously
4:49
And I kept saying that you're going to see a move towards the right. You don't have to be that clever to work it out
4:54
It's all happening all over Europe. Listen to the people. Everyone is ignored the wishes of the majority of the British populace on this issue
5:03
Starmer now, if he actually brings in some of these policies and they are effective
5:08
I actually think that fair play. You know, fair play, you know, you've come to it late
5:13
You've got no principles. You've chucked your principles, whatever they were, out the window. Fair enough
5:17
You're a pragmatist. I can get behind you because at least you're listening on this particular issue
5:22
But if that happens all the time, Sean, then where do we go? I mean, you can't trust the government or anything then
5:27
Well, I agree with all of that. I think that's quite right. And I don't say I'm not saying that he ought not to be tackling legal immigration
5:35
But the illegal immigration is the thing that's winning Farage. OK, fine. I would slightly disagree. I think it's both. But on this particular point, if he does and we don't know yet because it's being reported on the front pages that this is being under put under serious consideration, the Winterfell Cup policy
5:53
if it is changed in some way what message do you think that that sends out
5:57
A good one or a bad one? Well I think if it's done correctly
6:03
and I hold by what I was saying at the start that if he scraps it and says
6:09
we've listened, we've made a mistake and we're going to start and have a look at this again because
6:13
I think most people would think what you were saying that millionaires and billionaires
6:17
ought not to be getting a winter fuel allowance that that's ridiculous but he needs to sit down and work out how to
6:24
now the best way, on my view, to do it at the moment is we've made a mistake with the whole thing
6:29
we're scrapping it, we've listened, we're starting from scratch and that then I think we need credit with the people
6:34
Okay, what about the imposition of employers' national insurance? What about that one
6:40
If we're going down a road of cat-handed policies that have been introduced, it doesn't stop there, does it
6:46
Well, there's quite a few, isn't there? I'm not so averse to that one
6:51
because from a political perspective, we're not, you know, he keeps talking about the working man, doesn't he
6:58
That's one of these catchphrases. That's not hitting the vast majority of Labour voters
7:05
That is a very good point, because the reason why this winter fuel thing
7:09
is being looked at, as I understand it, is because it came up in the doorsteps in the by-election recently
7:14
but also in the local elections all over the place. and that's why
7:18
Sean, do you think that there's a trust issue here? Because these things, neither the employers and I
7:24
nor the Winterfuel payment thing was mentioned in the manifesto, which is why it got up people's noses
7:30
No. Well, I think there is an element of that. I think what we've lost in British politics is
7:34
you've played Margaret Thatcher just now in terms of the ladies not for turn
7:38
I'm not a great Margaret Thatcher fan, but she was a conviction politician, wasn't she
7:43
She was. She believed in her policies and she wasn't listening. I mean, it's a double cliche, but we've got all these focus groups and all these people telling them which way they should play
7:51
This is the thing. To quote Tony Benn, are you a signpost or are you a weathercock
7:58
I mean, this Prime Minister, fair play on immigration. I'll give him that. But if you're going to do this on every issue, I mean, you're not a signpost
8:05
You just move with the wind. Sean, thank you. Sean, a new caller in Essex
8:09
Welcome to you, Sean. Good afternoon. Hello there. Good afternoon. What would you like to say
8:13
um this is quite simplifying everything i do appreciate it might not work in every case
8:19
but they apply the government last winter were telling everybody apply for tax credits if your
8:25
pension's too low that's right and you'll get the winter fuel benefit yeah my my thought on that is
8:30
why would you not just make the pension tax credit limit the minimum pension add the fuel
8:36
amount to it add the fuel payment amount to it and then that that's the base level for pensions
8:42
You haven't got to spend thousands and thousands on means testing people and stuff like that
8:47
and it would just become the base pension is included for the people on lower pensions already, end of
8:54
And that's it. It stops. No more winter fuel payments after that because it's included for the lower benefit
9:00
It's a very attractive proposition that you've put forward, Sean. There will always be people on the wrong side of that line who will say that it unfair that their benefits have been cut if there no sliding scale Yeah OK I take that back
9:14
No, no, no. I think your suggestion is an interesting one. I'm not trying to say that it's not an appropriate thing
9:22
I'm just saying that there will always be people who feel that, you know, wherever the line is drawn, you're drawing it at the minimum income level or whatever it is
9:32
People will feel they're on the wrong side of that line. Yeah, but when there's variable at the moment
9:37
obviously bottom pensions, I don't know what the rates are, but just having a base bottom pension..
9:44
I get the point. ...adding a few... Yeah, it just makes more sense to me. OK, sure, let me..
9:49
You can't then moan about it, because people are missing out by pounds or two pounds. I get it, I get it
9:53
Sure, let me ask you this. What does it say to you as a voter when you hear this
9:59
How do you feel about it? Do you think that it's showing that the government has listened
10:03
or that the government is actually going weak at the knees on this? I'd like to say they've listened, but I don't know
10:12
That's possibly a bit of panic in now. It may be panic, but sometimes if governments do listen
10:16
shouldn't we give them some credit for it, Sean? I mean, they can't win, can they? Yeah, no, I totally agree
10:21
And my parents, they had no need for winter fuel power. It went towards Christmas presents
10:30
There is no need for them to receive it. Well, it's an interesting point when the country is cash strapped, when the government's cash strapped, you've got to look at things. And not every pensioner out there necessarily needs the 300 quid. And I think there's a discussion to be had. Some do, some do, but not everyone does. And they should have thought about it in a slightly different way before introducing the policy. Sean, thank you. John in Kilcuddy in Scotland. Good afternoon
10:54
Hello, good afternoon. What would you like to say, sir? Well, I was listening to your programme
10:59
and I was fascinated by this thing over the winter fuel allowance
11:06
which I personally thought was a decent policy and had to come in, not perhaps a popular one
11:12
But it's proved to be so unpopular that no matter what argument they put forward
11:18
they're not going to win it. So there is well to think again
11:22
John, why do you think that they misread that so badly? Why was that
11:27
Was it because it wasn't in their manifesto or was it because it was just going to be always very unpopular anyway
11:33
with a section of the electorate that actually bothers to get off their backsides and go and vote
11:38
I don't really have an answer to that. I mean, my point of view, I suppose
11:42
is that from the days of Osborne and Cameron, we've been married to austerity
11:48
And austerity is such a damaging policy. But Labour seem to be attracted to some aspects of it and think that the tough choices mean taking money from poor people to pay for bills which they haven't personally accrued
12:05
And I mean, nationally. And I just I mean, to work for 50 years and get a miserable 12,000 pension is just quite medieval, I think, in comparison to other countries that we're poor
12:20
John, what do you think it says about the government? If they do U-turn, do you think it's a positive thing
12:24
or do you think it shows that they are going to be buffeted by events and effectively pushed around and slapped around by their back benches now
12:32
Is that what the government is? No, I don't agree with that
12:36
I mean, I'm a staunch supporter of Starmer and the Labour Party
12:41
I think if he changes his mind on this, then he's simply, you could say listening to people, but I would simply say
12:46
it's just an argument they are not going to win. and so therefore perhaps there's very good reasons for that
12:52
If you're not going to win it, don't fight it. Don't dig the hole deeper. Well, you know, it's a very interesting point, John
12:59
and thank you for your call. All I would say is that if you're not going to win that one, which other ones are you not going to win
13:04
You're not going to win welfare reform? Then don't bother. You're not going to win austerity
13:08
Then don't bother with a spending review where every department's coming in line by line
13:11
having to cut costs. Don't bother with that either. Don't bother with just ring-fencing the NHS
13:16
and the Defence Department. Ring-fence everything. why don't you bring back the overseas aid budget
13:20
I mean, you've got to make some choices to govern is to choose here. And if they choose to renege on this one or reverse tack
13:27
you could say it's a wonderful thing. They're listening. Other people would say that they're going soft
13:31
And what does that, that doesn't bode well for the future. What I think it shows is that this government understand
13:37
I got no political mouse whatsoever You probably not wrong there Why you say it David Because so many things they doing they having second thoughts about or the desired effect that brought them about in the
13:50
first place is going to be the wrong effect. Do you think, David, that they're not road testing
13:55
these things sufficiently and stress testing them before they announce them to the public
14:00
I have no idea. I just think they've got no political mouse. And I would not vote for any
14:05
particular party at the moment anyway, because I want the best of the best in government
14:10
And they don't exist in one party. Well, it looks like he's not going to turn you around, David. I mean, do you think that
14:15
there is something to be said for politicians who actually put their hands up and fess up
14:19
and say, look, we tried to do something. We've listened. It hasn't worked. We are changing
14:24
tack. I mean, that shows a certain maturity, doesn't it? Not for me. They should know that. They should know the answer before they become a politician
14:31
Do you think it's a lack of experience? It's a lack of everything. Political nows
14:36
Well, political nows. What would your advice to Starmer be, David, apart from the fact you're not going to vote for him
14:41
How is he going to get your vote, if anything could happen? I'll never get my vote. I'll never get my vote unless he changes tack
14:46
In what way? Completely. He becomes more of a Labour politician. Old school Labour
14:53
Well, I mean, it's interesting because... He wants to be something to everybody, doesn't he
14:57
He doesn't work. Well, at the moment, it looks like Nigel Farage is calling the tune
15:01
and Keir Starmer is the puppet following it. Nigel Farage is just an opposition leader
15:08
He will never be in government and when he is, he'll make a balls of it like all of us. Well, at the moment, given where the polls are
15:14
28% to reform and Labour trailing them, I wouldn't be so sure, David
15:17
but we shall see what happens. Thank you for your call. Nick in Holland Park, good afternoon
15:24
Oh, hi, Ali. Yes, Keir Starmer is listening to the opinion polls
15:31
Obviously, not to the public, but my real point is, I think it tells us more about the voting public
15:38
than it does about the government. Oh, interesting. And that is that in the main
15:42
they are financially illiterate morons. I'm sorry to borrow Vanessa Phelps' phrase
15:50
That's you, lovely LBC listeners, a lot of you. A bit harsh, isn't it? Well, let me join very few dots together
15:57
from your previous hours' conversation, which was how terrible they're putting our taxes up by reducing allowances on ISIS
16:05
or what did you say, keep your grabby hands off our money. But exactly the same people want money to be given to pensioners who don't need the money
16:16
And this is the story of the way the public, I think it's mostly the public
16:22
but with the collusion of the government, have been addicted to social spending for decades now
16:28
And to the point where anything you want to take away, it doesn't matter what it is or reduce slightly, you know, there's scores of complaints
16:37
It's an interesting point. And yet people don't want to pay more tax. I mean, it's just I can understand from the Labour point, but even though they're slippery eels, I mean, they're worse than the lowest
16:46
They can almost feel sorry for them thinking, you know, what can we do
16:50
Well, Nick, the counter argument would be given that if you can grow the size of the economy, which is notoriously hard to do, then everyone's happy because you've got a bigger pie to share in
17:01
Well, you know, that's never going to happen because you can only grow an economy by reducing taxes
17:05
Steady on, Nick. Steady on 0.7% growth in the first quarter. We're the fastest at the G7, don't you know
17:12
Oh, come on. You're joking. I am joking. I am joking. I am joking
17:17
I think what's known as a dead cat bounce, you know that's not going to continue
17:24
And you can't have high growth because you're not going to get more tax receipts
17:30
by taxing people more. You get less tax receipts by taxing more
17:34
But this is such an alien concept to not just Labour, but new Conservative, if I call them that
17:40
and to most of the British public. They see you're labouring for decades under the delusion
17:46
that if you keep putting in more money, I mean, you know
17:49
So you think we're being illiterate here, Nick, as an electorate, basically thinking we can have it all when we want to
17:56
We don't want to reduce any benefits to anyone of any kind, but we don't want to pay the taxes
18:00
And when taxes go up, people squeal on that too. Absolutely. The only thing you could argue about
18:06
are people just intrinsically economically illiterate or is it because of being spoon-fed this lie
18:14
by successive governments for decades? I mean, you know, the jury's out on that
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