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James O'Brien meets Miriam Margolyes | Full Disclosure
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Aug 24, 2025
This episode was recorded in the summer of 2022. From a childhood in Oxford shaped by unconditional love, Jewish heritage and a keen sense of curiosity, to a career spanning stage, screen, voice work and bestselling memoir, Miriam Margolyes’ life has been anything but ordinary. In this candid conversation with James O’Brien, the beloved actor reflects on the security of her early years, the sting of antisemitism, and the moment she first felt at home on stage. She recalls her path from Cambridge Footlights to the BBC, the breakthrough of her one-woman show Dickens’ Women, and the global recognition that came with Harry Potter. Margolyes speaks openly about her voracious appetite for people and stories, her refusal to shy away from controversy, and the enduring influence of her parents- from her mother’s theatrical aspirations to her father’s financial frankness. Along the way, she shares unvarnished memories of working with Hollywood greats, the exhilaration of live performance, and the friendships collected across decades in the public eye. Frank, funny and utterly herself, this episode offers an unfiltered portrait of a national treasure who remains as curious, mischievous and compelling as ever. #JamesOBrien #FullDisclosure #LBC #miriammargolyes LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
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0:00
Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast project can sit there. I'm only joking, I'm on
0:10
holiday, which is why we're dipping back into the archives. We've been doing this for six years now
0:15
Did you realise that? 2019 Full Disclosure launched. Gosh, we're getting old together. And of course
0:22
some of the conversations we've had with people from the worlds of politics, entertainment
0:26
literature and beyond stick with you. I mean, for me, they all do in various different ways
0:32
but some, I think, merit repetition or merit revisiting. So while I'm off sunning myself
0:38
I thought that I'd let you revisit a couple of my favourites. The first is Miriam Margulis
0:44
This is one of those memorable and even by her standards, joyously unpredictable interviews
0:51
is one of the most unpredictable and joyous in fact that i've ever recorded you you don't really
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need me to tell you much about her you know she's an award-winning actor a memoirist
1:00
voiceover artist there's some interesting stuff there and um in her own words not a national
1:06
treasure but a national trinket above all though she is someone who doesn't seem to even acknowledge
1:12
the capacity to self-edit and why should she i mean it's part of what makes her so wonderful
1:18
and her story, her life story is absolutely riveting including some darker moments
1:26
and we take in her time at the Cambridge Footlights when she wasn't overly enamoured
1:30
of all of the people who went on to be household names that she
1:34
performed with, the chat shows, the Dickens stuff, Hollywood, Harry Potter of course, it's all here and
1:39
again, you will not be surprised to learn, nothing was off limits
1:44
if you heard it the first time round it's worth another listen, trust me And if you haven't, well, you're in for something really special
1:53
Hello and welcome to Full Disclosure, a podcast project conceived entirely to allow me to spend more time
1:58
than I'd ever get on the radio with people that I find fascinating. And Miriam Margulis, at this point in the series
2:05
I normally say, and this week's guest, fits squarely into that category of being fascinating
2:10
But in your case, I feel it might be something of an understatement. What, you mean I fit roundly into it
2:15
There must be a word beyond fascinating, and there's no earthly way we're going to touch the sides
2:21
of your extraordinary life in the minutes that are available, but we shall try
2:27
Thank you for having me on the programme. Well, thank you for coming. I'm fascinated by how superhuman or supernaturally secure you seem
2:34
in your own skin. And I presume reading your book, This Much Is True
2:40
your memoir, Astonishingly Well-Received Memoir, although that wasn't always the case, It must have a lot to do with how much love you were enveloped with as a baby and a child
2:49
Oh, I think it's everything. The love was everything, the confidence. Because you start out, in a sense, a level playing field with everybody else
2:59
But I had so much on my side, mummy and daddy, the army
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You know, it was just, I felt confident. And even though when I went to meet boys and was growing up
3:13
and not very successful at growing up, I still knew who I was
3:19
I knew who I was. I just didn't think that anybody else would want me
3:23
There's a solidity of unconditional love that not everybody gets to experience
3:28
but which defines your early years and your early years define your later years
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I was very, very lucky. Did you know that at the time? I mean, did you feel..
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Because the thing about childhood is it's the only one you ever know, isn't it? You don't get to compare your childhood to other people
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Well, that's the difficult thing. You don't think you're unlike anyone else, but then you don't think you're like anybody else
3:50
I think I knew that I was going to find life interesting but difficult
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Okay. I because we my parents spent a lot of time explaining about being Jewish and that was a
4:06
very important part of growing up I was different I was the other I didn't go to him practice and
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that gets into you so you you know that you don't belong and I still feel in some ways I don't belong
4:24
but I've made a little hole for myself that's my hole and it works. Conscious of family history as
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well which is I mean as with a lot of Ashkenazi Jewish families it's an incredibly checkered
4:37
journey isn't it? You know that people wanted you dead because you were a Jew and you never
4:44
really get over that and I'm hyper sensitive to anti-semitism and I think the British people
4:52
don't like Jews on the whole. We're just not liked. You've got into trouble for saying that
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Oh, yes. You were confused as to why. I mean, as if stating the reality of anti-Semitism
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is in any way controversial. It's been difficult because of the war
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because for a long time after the war, it wasn't supposed to happen
5:10
But it was there. It was always there. When did you first encounter it personally
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Can you remember? Well, at school, of course, when they said, you killed Christ
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And I said, no, I didn't. I wasn't even there. But people, kids, had been told that, so they voiced it
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And then afterwards, I remember in Heidelberg, when I was on tour with the experimental theatre group
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there was a kind of uneasy, a few remarks came my way
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And I thought, oh, oh, okay, that's what it is. And actually, when I was little
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and we were picnicking in someone's field and the farmer said to my father
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why don't you people go back where you came from? And we quickly packed up the rug and the eggs
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and got in the car and they were quite quiet. He didn't mean Glasgow
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No, he didn't mean Glasgow. Which is where your dad grew up and very nearly didn't
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There's an astonishing story you tell about his papers arriving for the First World War
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I noticed when I was reading up on you that he was born in 1899, which I don't know why
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At Res, born in the same, you know, century as Dickens did
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all his great work. Yes. That's mad, isn't it? It is. Running out of people whose parents were born in the 19th century
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Daddy was a Victorian. Yes. And he was very Victorian in his ways
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And he was very Scottish too. You know, he used to say, I'll have a drum
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when Sabbath came out, you know, after the stars came out. He said, oh, I'll have a drum
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And, yeah, he felt Scottish. Well, I think of, perhaps wrongly, I think of a Scottish Victorian
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I'm thinking of, obviously, despite the Jewishness, I'm thinking of a sort of Presbyterian approach to life
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And yet, in terms of emotional literacy and the love that we've already talked about
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there was nothing Victorian at all about your children. Well, there was about Daddy
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mummy was so mummy's the one who enveloped you yes because she was the emotion right okay daddy
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was frightened of emotion and didn't didn't really show it very much but mummy was all emotion and she
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wanted to be an actress and you couldn if you were a nice jewish girl So she threw all her vicarious longing into me And you were in Oxford when you were born
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The family had moved down. Yes, I was born in Oxford. Your dad was working as a doctor. Yes
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Which... He was a GP and he just upped and opened a surgery
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first on the Cowley Road and then in St Clement's. And he was just a single-handed practitioner
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working hard and loving medicine. And he was a good old school doctor
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Right. The old school. Yes. Not now when they just look at the computer and tap out a prescription
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That wasn't his way. What about school? Let's start with school. So home would have been, as we've established
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a very happy and warm place. So was there a... I mean, and your mum was incredibly protective
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because she was frightened of giving birth. Yes, well, they were married 11 years before I was born
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Gosh. So it was only the air raid that allowed Congress. Yes
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And along came you. And I came along. And in fact, mummy tried to have an abortion
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Some people would say that she did. Don't be silly. She really wanted to have an abortion
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But of course, it was illegal then. And she was a nice woman and didn't do that
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Because she was terrified of the process of pregnancy. No coat hangers for mummy
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Oh, dear. um and so when you came along this level of of protectiveness was off the scale how did it
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respond to school when you had to go to school you didn't go away to school but you
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i was a day they kept me at the high school because uh i didn't get a scholarship there
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they paid because they wanted me to stay at a good school mommy was was really um aspirant you
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know she was a social climber yes and she wanted me to as she always said be with the best people
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I'm never quite sure who they are. No, nor am I. My mum's the same
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I got sent away to public school for exactly the same reason and they weren't necessarily the best people
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Exactly. But you didn't tell them that. No, of course you didn't
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But that's how I stayed at the high school, which was a wonderful school, Oxford High School for Girls
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All the other girls were the daughters of Don's for the most part
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So that's how I got friendly with the Hodgkin family, which was Dorothy Hodgkin, Nobel Prize winner
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Thomas Hodgkin, communist, iconoclast, wonderful man. And Elizabeth Hodgkin, who is my great friend still
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I mean, it's an amazing place to go to school or an amazing place to grow up at any point in history
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But for a woman at that point in history, it was perhaps particularly special
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Yes, I think it was. I mean, I love the Oxford of my youth
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I'm not sure that I like the Oxford now. I understand that. and I wanted to go to Cambridge because I wanted to escape, in a way
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from the family tourniquet. I'll just back up a bit because you didn't get the scholarship
10:31
The amazing thing about your book, I love people, well, I say that I love people because I think I'm one of them
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but the more near the surface your childhood is, the more I find it's easy to trust someone
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And your childhood is very near your surface, isn't it? You're still very, very much in touch with your childhood
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Yes, I am that person. Yes. Some people, you find it impossible
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I could never imagine my dad as a child. It just seemed to me to have always been a grown-up
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But some people, you can see the child within moments of them sitting down in front of you
11:00
I've never left that child. No. A naughty school girl, really. I mean, that's who I am
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I think you had a therapist once who said that you were stuck at the age of four, was it? And that she might be able to get you to 12 if you were lucky
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Yes. Margaret Branch. She said you're like a Jewish princess stamping your yellow wellies in the mud
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We're jumping all over the place, so let's carry on, and then I'll try and impose some rough chronology
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Because if we've got this supernatural sense of security, why on earth would you need to see a therapist or want to see a therapist
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Oh, well, that was because in later life I just went to pieces. I had an affair with somebody, having got a wonderful, stable relationship
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which amazingly I still have after 54 years. And I was seduced by a very
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a rather remarkable American lady professor. I'm an intellectual snob, you know
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I'll only, I have to say the word. You're allowed to, it's a podcast
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I always forget that. trouble but it's fine you do it on live breakfast television you don't do it on a pre-recorded
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podcast with an editor in the next room who can who can cut it all out anyway you can say whatever
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you want i always i my explanation is that i will only someone with a degree yes with a
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someone clever it's not the piece of paper is it it's the it's the beneath the bonnet of
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qualification between the ears is what counts exactly between the legs so you were trying to
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work out why you'd acted in a slightly self-destructive fashion and therapy can often
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provide answers to those well she put me together and she put heather and me together and your
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relationship with heather survived which was the crucial and most important for me the most
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important thing as we've already established in this conversation but as the book makes absolutely
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clear nothing is off limits with you is it absolutely not it is all out there were you
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always like that were you like that at school i was gosh that must have been challenging not for
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you for everybody else i think it was i don't know how to keep storm i don't know how to button up
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i just am in incapable of just stopping and pulling myself up i just don't do it did you
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ever try well i think i i have tried but i failed is this because mommy thought everything you did
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was absolutely wonderful so you never had that kind of self what's the word i'm looking for
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that kind of self-consciousness. I don't think I can blame mummy for that
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It's not blame. It's not a negative. It's a positive. I'm just trying to unpick it a bit
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I think it's my decision is that I feel stronger if I'm open
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Right. If I close up, I feel vulnerable. See, I think Stephen Fry suggested that that's because you want to get your retaliation in first
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for fear of attack. I don't know you. This is the first time we've met. and Stephen Fry does know you
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but that didn't seem to me to be fair reading the book given that this openness
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this absolutely nothing is off limits was established long before adolescent insecurities
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might have kicked in or your role in the world might have become confusing to you
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You've always been like this. I've always been like this because I want a reaction
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Right. And it's such fun to see people being shocked or even horrified
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I get a kick out of it. And that's very adolescent, but it's still true
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But it's normally done when you're in character. Most actors who enjoy that thrill, you've described it, I think
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in some context as the tightening of the anus, that moment of excitement
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You're supposed to get it when you're in character. You're not supposed to do it when you're not in character
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And it's hard to see the line between the two sometimes with you, I think
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I don know how to respond to that I don know you know because what you actually doing is slightly deconstructing me and I don know how to respond
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Not in a nasty way, not in a deconstructionist way, but just trying to explain why I behave so badly
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I honestly don't know. What you're saying is I'm just me, let's not overthink it
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So when did you realise you were clever? Because you mentioned you didn't get the scholarship, which is interesting
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I'm not clever. I think I'm pretty shrewd, but I'm not a scholar
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and that's what I would love to have been. I would love to have been like Heather
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who published a book in the same year that I did, but her book won't get read by that many people
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but it's about Indonesian trade and politics. The spice rates. Yes. It's a work of proper scholarship
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Of proper scholarship, and I've not done that, except my Dickens work
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I think my Dickens work is serious and good and will stand the test of time
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I mean, Renaissance woman is a bit of a pat phrase, isn't it? But people perhaps don't realise
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they might know you from one or two areas of your career. They might be aware of all the other areas as well as you've just touched on
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Well, I hope not. We'll get on to that later. Did you set out, I mean, again, we're jumping forward
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but did you set out to just inhale work, to do as much as you could
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or was it just a case of taking whatever jobs came along
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I took whatever came along. And you just happened to end up with this amazing palette
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of experience and professional work. Yes. I think it's hard for me to realise that now I'm 81, which is old
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and I can't quite take in what I've done in my life
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Where has my life gone? What did I do with it? and I've only got a BA degree in English literature
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I would have liked to have done more, learnt more. Really? Worked harder intellectually
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But that wasn't the way it went. Less living, more learning? Yes, I would have loved that
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It's a contemplative perspective. Yes, I think there is a slightly melancholic
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contemplative longing within me. when did you realize you weren't a scholar then because oxford high school is a very um
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august institution and you you waltzed into cambridge i mean well i didn't waltz into
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cambridge i did get an exhibition to cambridge um which surprised me right um but i think
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words thrill me and always have and that has been my salvation you've described your vocabulary i
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I can't remember how you described it, but you know lots and lots of words
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and you never overuse any of them. I love words. I do too. Words are the currency of thought
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Yes. And I enjoy discovering words and using them in a different way
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I love puns. I'm great friends with Esther Ransom and she's a great punster
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and we have fun doing that. It's just salty. It's tasty. There's a theory as well that rage, people with small vocabularies who can't articulate
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are a lot more given to rage and anger and stress because they can't get their feelings out of their head
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And so they sort of form a constipation that then explodes. I can believe that
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I can as well. Makes sense. You mentioned Esther Edson. You've got a lot of friends
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I read 12,000 names or thereabouts in your phone. Yes, that's a bit boastful, isn't it
18:38
I don't know. Well, names aren't necessarily friends. I don't know, but a significant number of them will be
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I can't let people go. Right. I guarantee that when we finish this, I will want to claim you
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Well, feel free. I will want to know you. Feel free. And in fact, I wanted to know you before I knew I was ever going to come on your programme
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Thank you. Because of the way that you care about the same things that I care about
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I think so. I hope so. I take that as a compliment. I believe it
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And so don't be surprised if I get your email from somebody. I told you you don't need to
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You can get it off me. Friends at school then? Were you a popular..
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I mean, nasty comments about killing Christ notwithstanding. Were you a popular classmate
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I was popular because I made people laugh. Always. And that makes you popular
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Did you start at home? Did you start off making mum and dad laugh? Or did you start making people laugh at school
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I think I worried my parents. I don't think I made them laugh
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Laterally, perhaps. But I certainly made people at school laugh and teachers
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And I had wonderful friends and I still have them. You're still friends with them
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That's really rare. Quite a few people who sit in that chair, have no contact whatsoever with anybody they went to school with
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particularly actors, actually, for some reason. Well, maybe they want to divest themselves of people
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I just want to add people. I want, like, I'm a stamp collector
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I want to lick them and put them in the water. I mean, literally, if we're going to get into some of the other chapters in this book
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So you get to Cambridge. Some people arrive at university and find their tribe
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You don't come across like that. You don't come across as someone who felt disconnected until you got to university
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Quite the opposite, in fact. You just sort of enter into life in Cambridge and don't enjoy all of it, do you
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Well, a lot of it was wonderful. Yes, of course. It's where I always say that I became who I am
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Right. And I loved it. I loved my college, Newnham College. I loved my tutors
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In fact, I was in love with my moral tutor, Leslie Cook
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who died a long time ago. She knew I loved her. I used to bring bags of fudge and knock at her door at midnight
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if I saw her light was on. And she was very nice. she'd invite me in and I'd sit on the floor and we'd talk about life and I I did say to her you
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know I love you and she just looked rather embarrassed and said yes well that's very nice
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did you fall in love with anyone else at Cambridge no no no I didn't I had a boyfriend I in fact he's
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still my friend the lovely thing is that David who who was the chap he was um the lighting man
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at the amateur dramatic club at Cambridge, the ADC, reading engineering. And he and Heather both ended up in Amsterdam
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and they bought a house together. And he's still in my life. Gosh
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And I love him still. Not groinily, but emotionally. No, of course
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Heartily. Heartily, yes. So we've had the first glimpse of the stage then
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Did you not act at school? Did you do acting at school? Oh, I did act at school. Yes, I thought so. I've seen some of the pictures
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And I was schooled. You should mention the book's got an astonishing collection of photographs in it as well, hasn't it
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Oh, I love the photos. Clearly you do. And it keeps you, again, keeps you in touch with that child and that proper memories
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as if it were yesterday, some of those captions in particular. Well, my school has never left me
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No. In fact, nothing has left me. That's so rare, because it's in a good way
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I mean, some of us are haunted by our school days. My therapy focused almost entirely on my school days for the most awful of reasons Whereas with you you got this sort of stayed with you for nice reasons Well it was a single school which I think is a calmer situation
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Which is for girls? Yes. Not for boys? Maybe not. Definitely not
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It's bloody awful for boys. I suppose. Well, men are still almost a closed shop to me
22:47
I don't really... No, I was just saying to Charlotte earlier that I wonder what men talk about
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Because girls have great conversations. About all sorts of things. Yes, and about their inner lives and their longings
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I don't know if men have longings that they talk about. I think we're getting better
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but we certainly wouldn't have done 30 years ago. In those days, yeah
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I mean, not back in the... Darling, it's 60 years ago. Yes, gosh. So you did act at school
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I acted at school with success. Were there magic mode? I mean, did you walk onto a stage and think
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this is where I am meant to be, this is my... I knew I loved theatre. Yes
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I knew that being in front of an audience was being at home
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Why? Tell me. Because I felt I could control the audience. I've always felt that when I stood on a stage
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I knew what to do and they gave themselves to me. The audience is very generous
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They say, here we are and we're watching. and it's wonderful. It's a joy
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It's a meal. And you could feel that even as a young girl. Yes, I didn't voice it in those terms
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But I knew that I felt a great peace when I went on stage
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And I was always nervous and I'm still more nervous now than I used to be
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But I know when I'm there, I know what to do. And I know that they are looking at me and it's good
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I like being looked at and I suppose you bring something similar
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to your sort of latter turns on chat shows and things when you have the audience
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you take it away from people who are sometimes better known than you are
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at the beginning of the interview but not at the end of it and you have the audience
24:37
eating out of your hand you're exercising a similar spell I suppose so
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I mean it's as if chat shows were made for me and I never
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thought about going on a chat show. I mean, it wasn't anything I really wanted to do
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But it's fun. And I seem to have the knack of getting across to people
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You do. And what's lovely is that you've got so much other stuff going on as well. I always think
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the tragedy of Kenneth Williams' life was that he worked. I mean, he was brilliant on chat shows
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but by the end, that was the only thing anyone was ever booking him to do. And I think it contributed to his his decline whereas for you a chat show is a little bit like a sort of
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waving out of the car window as you're as you're off on a fascinating journey anyway you're doing
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something exciting anyway and it's and it's interesting because on chat shows you meet
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other people yeah that you in my case i i hardly ever know who they are no you're not sure i'm
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saying so and it's fascinating and that's how i i met uh rory stewart yes and i really like him
25:41
He's special, isn't he? I think he is the future. I hope so. I think that's what the Tory party should, you know
25:47
put itself together. But you don't just meet people. I mean, you really want to know people
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Yes, I do. You kind of... I want to know people in the street
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I mean, I've gone up to people sometimes and said, I like the look of you
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Would you mind having a chat? Should we have a chat? And what do they do
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They have a chat. And sometimes, very occasionally, people say well actually i'm a bit busy this morning so rush off actually to that end judy
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i think revealed that during because you live near her daughter fincy during lockdown you'd be
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sitting on your doorstep starting conversations with passers-by to alleviate the monotony and
26:26
the boredom but also because you were really interested presumably in what stories these
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passers-by might have to share so here's the weird thing miriam that we talk about the show-off gene
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sometimes on this podcast, or the look at me, Jean. You clearly have it in spades
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In spades, yes. But at the same time, it's not to the exclusion of
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fascination with other people. I mean, they don't often go hand in hand
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There's genuine, voracious appetite for other people and knowing them and understanding them
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I suppose what I'm saying is that the look at me, Jean, is often quite conceited, but yours isn't at all
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I don't think it is. I have wondered about that because I'm capable of conceit
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But I'm also actually quite humble, knowing what I have to offer is not that considerable
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And people are fascinating. Hearing people's stories, hearing the hurt that people go through
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and the experiences that others have, it is fascinating. And that's compelling
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And while I talk to people, they are more interesting than I am
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I want to know their story. To you, they are more interesting than you are
27:42
Yes, genuinely so. And I think that's why my documentaries have been successful
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Yes. Because I'm lucky enough to have researchers who find the people
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I don't find them. But once they're found, I know how to talk to them
27:59
so that they reveal themselves. and people revealing themselves is the most thrilling thing you can imagine
28:07
And you can't teach that or learn it. I don't know if you can
28:12
It's an innate fascination. I think it has to be an innate longing, a curiosity
28:17
So I was going to ask you this later, but you've mentioned the documentaries. What would you have been if you hadn't been an actress
28:23
What else was on the agenda when you were at Cambridge and you joined the Footlights and you started thinking
28:27
do you know what, I could do this for a living? What were the other contenders? My mother wanted me to be a barrister, and I did join up Grey's Inn and ate the dinners
28:36
And that's actually where I met some antisemitism as well. But that wasn't ever going to be for me
28:44
I'm just not legal. It's a trident often, again, for people who've been on this series
28:51
that acting, law, journalism, or politics, that's four prongs, actually. So I could have seen you as a journalist or a writer
29:01
I could have been a journalist, I think. I thought I would have been a probation officer
29:06
because I like helping people and doing good. And I love crims
29:13
I can't help being fascinated by those beyond the law, outside the law
29:20
And by redemption or just literally by criminality? Well, by criminality, I think
29:25
I want to understand. Why do you do that? And remember, my great-grandfather was a criminal
29:34
Yes, seven years in... In hard labour, in park hair style of white
29:39
Was that carried as a stigma by the family or was that..
29:43
It was never mentioned. Completely stunned. I didn't know anything about it
29:48
And I still don't know whether my mother knew. Really? She never told me and I never spoke about it then
29:54
because I didn't find out till much later. But it was a shameful thing in those days
29:59
And I mean, this is 1877 he was sent down. It's incredible, isn't it
30:05
It is. But I wondered if... I've always felt on the side of the underdog, you see
30:11
Simeon Sandman. No. Sigisman... No, Sigisman was my grandfather. Yeah. Simon. Simon Sandman. Sandman
30:20
Back to Cambridge. Joined the Footlights. That wasn't a success. Well, it was
30:26
I mean, for want of a... Professionally. I mean, in terms of performances, it was a success
30:32
It got me into radio because John Bridges, who was a radio producer at the BBC
30:37
came down and saw me in Double Take in 1962. When I left the following year, I wrote to him
30:43
and asked him to get me an audition if he could. And he got me an audition
30:46
and I joined the BBC drama repertory company in 1965. And that was the launch, as it were
30:53
That was the launch. So, I mean, at Cambridge, you decided, I'm going to have a crack at this
30:58
I can do this for a living. This is me. This is what I want to do. Well, I knew I wanted to act
31:03
Before even. I mean, and how did... Not at school. I thought I would be a doctor at school
31:08
because daddy was a doctor. And how did they respond when you came? Because, I mean, it's not really many parents' dreams
31:14
particularly for a daughter to come home and say, I'm going on the stage, Mrs Worthington. Well, it was mummy's dream
31:19
It still was. She wanted me because that's what she had wanted. Okay, yes, she said
31:23
And she was gifted. She was in the finals of the Golden Voice competition of 1936, which was the Britain's Got Talent of the day
31:32
Incredible, isn't it? Daddy was very disturbed. He was a sober, somber man, and he didn't approve at all
31:41
And I like telling this that when I started in the business, you know, he would say, what is your income
31:48
And I would tell him what my income was. He'd say, oh, dear. but later later when i i got to make money he'd say and what does your income know and i said
31:59
whatever it was he said oh really that's where it comes from then because people have commented
32:05
on your fascination with finances quite a childlike glee or or i mean utterly indiscreet but talking
32:11
about what you earn and where you get money from you drop into conversation how much you get paid
32:15
for appearing on the graham norton show and just little and then big paychecks like you got with
32:20
Harry Potter is a very un-English approach to money isn't it? I suppose it is
32:24
but I'm a trade union member of equity and it's in the
32:30
workers' interests to have information and so I've always talked about my income
32:35
with my colleagues because they should know what you earn because it helps them to
32:41
quantify what they should get and I think I love money, I think it's great
32:48
I just want everyone to have it. Yes. So I don't think it's something that you shouldn't talk about
32:54
That's very English. I mean, the things that matter. I agree. Money, sex, religion and politics
33:00
And you're not supposed to talk about any of those. But you would be happy talking about nothing else, wouldn't you
33:04
Forever, really. Absolutely. Those four subjects. Yes. And I mean, again, it's this curious dichotomy
33:09
between being famous for performing as other, for playing other people, and yet having such a, I don't want to say a huge personality
33:16
that sounds like something dreadful but having such a complete sense of self
33:22
and sense of what's important and really wanting to dig into the weeds of existence
33:26
I have a warm personality I think when I look at you and when I look at other people
33:32
I don't frighten them and I don't overaw them I hope that I cuddle them
33:38
my look is an embrace to say I'm here and you're here
33:43
and how lovely that is and I think that's why people are not
33:48
they don't clam up when I'm around. They want to share their lives because I want to hear it
33:55
I want to hear. I want to hear your life. You should be the other way around
33:59
I would love that. You should be interviewing me. I would love to know what made you you
34:04
Yes. You know, just as you want to know what made me you. I do this project. I mean, that's exactly the same appetite
34:11
Well, let's carry on trying to find out what made you you. So, briefly, people were horrible to you at Cambridge
34:19
including famous people. Only the Footlights boys. Everybody else was adorable. And some of these Footlights boys went on to be
34:26
the most famous performers of their generation. Deservedly so. Right. And still are horrid
34:32
So, you know, people are what they are. They saw me as a pushy little yid
34:39
You really think so? Yes, I do. and also I was good and they didn't like that
34:46
No. How did you know you were good? Because I got the laughs and I got the notices
34:51
That's how they knew you were good as well. So you come out of Cambridge and radio and voice work
34:57
for a while was the bread and butter. I think it always will be
35:03
and it always has been right through my career. I've always done radio plays, recorded books
35:09
By the way, my book is an Audible book. Doing it yourself
35:15
And people can buy it on Audible. That's a selling point, isn't it? It's actually number one at the moment
35:20
I know it is. Congratulations. I'm not surprised, though, frankly. So, I mean, including some quite fruity jobs
35:27
Yes. Well, only a couple of times I made an audio, not visual
35:35
audio porn tape. and it was called Sexy Sonia Leaves from My Schoolgirl Diary
35:44
and it was just an account of various moments of tumescence that I observed as a schoolgirl
35:54
And how would people have, what would I have done, bought an LP or a table or something? Oh, cassette, I think, in those days
35:59
Was it on cassette? You'd go to a special shop somewhere, Cecil Court or somewhere like that
36:03
Yeah, and Summers, I think, was the main stockist. And you were also the voice of the rabbit in the caramel, Cadbury's Caramel
36:10
which gave an awful lot of pubescent boys all manner of conflict and confusion
36:18
It's delightful to think of it. I mean, for me, it was a job and great fun
36:23
And I did a lot of jolly good commercials, Mannequin Cigar, which was very, well, me trying to be a West Indian
36:36
but very soft like that, you know. Tobacco come from middle, middle leaf best
36:45
make mannequin cigar special. It shimmers down my spine. the work for actors, for all actors, divides, doesn't it
36:58
between the job and the livelihood and then the art and the magic, as it were
37:04
When did you start getting both? Because some of the radio stuff you did was very high
37:11
Yes, I did some good radio work. I think, actually, it wasn't until I did my Dickens Women
37:19
Gosh, that long? It took a long time because I always been regarded as a roly character actress Okay And they are right that is exactly what I am But I could have been more than that if I had the chance but I didn
37:38
I wish I'd done more Shakespeare, I wish I'd done more classical stuff, you know
37:42
but what I did, I think I did pretty well. And I'm grateful for those opportunities
37:49
Where does ambition fit into this story, this life? I mean, ambition in the cold and conventional sense of the word
37:58
In the beginning, it was very hard to get started. Right. And it was only ambition and mummy saying
38:06
you're good, don't give up, just keep going. That gave me confidence to go in for an audition
38:14
and try and get an agent and so on. But nobody thinks that they've had the career they should have done
38:23
Do you not? I mean, so you sort of think of the canon, is it
38:27
And you think of, I don't know, Desdemona or Ophelia or stuff like that
38:31
Well, I would have liked to have done more Chekhov. Yes. And I think that's where I could have been quite good
38:40
You've done Beckett? Yes, but that was very much later. Right. Only about eight years ago, I think
38:47
So when does that act start then? So it's with the Dickens stuff
38:51
Yes, I think after I did my Dickens play, which I wrote..
38:56
So it's 89? 89, 90? It started in 86. Okay. 86. Sonia Fraser and I took it down to Frank Dunlop
39:06
at the Edinburgh Festival and he commissioned it. Right. We pitched it to him
39:11
And after that, people thought, oh, she's quite good actually. Because I did 23 different characters
39:20
and I told the story of Dickens' life, going in and out of the narrative into different characters
39:29
And I was protean. I changed. Right. And that's magic in theatre
39:35
when people transform in front of you. I always remember the first night in Edinburgh
39:40
when the curtain dropped. Well, there was no curtain. It was a medical theatre
39:46
and the lights went out and there was complete silence. And I had no idea if it was a good silence or a bad one
39:56
And then the cheering started and the lights came up and that was unforgettable
40:02
Of course. Because it was not just... I mean, it was everything of you. It was the brain and the bones
40:07
Yes, it was absolutely a fulcrum for all the things that I believed in and wanted to do
40:15
I had managed to pull it off in one piece through Sonia directing me so brilliantly
40:21
and writing it with me and that moment is one I treasure
40:25
and remember fondly often And it becomes a huge pivot then professionally
40:32
I mean is that partly because of how other people came to see you differently
40:36
but not everybody would have seen that show but partly because of how you came to see yourself Yes
40:41
A new gear of self-belief perhaps Yes, I thought I was worth it
40:46
Right, and you hadn't previously. Well, I thought... Because you'd done a lot, you'd done an awful lot
40:50
film and radio and television. I had, but it was always cameos
40:57
Okay. It's funny. Now you know I do something that's called cameo
41:00
and it's when celebrities... Do you do that? I do, because you get paid for it
41:05
I do, I do. It's amazing. Happy birthday and stuff like that. Yes, you know, John Bercow does it as well
41:11
Does he really? And I really admire him. Because he's got that booming voice, I suppose
41:15
What would your dad say? How much he were earning for that? Yeah, he probably would
41:20
He probably would. But I get a buzz out of it. It's fun. I'm sure your clients are delighted
41:25
You've got five-star reviews coming out of your ears. I do. I'm glad to say
41:30
So I like this pivotal point. So prior to that, you'd done, around the same time, actually
41:35
again, it's not a cameo. It's more than a cameo. But you did Flora Finching in Little Dorrit, didn't you
41:41
And I won the LA Critics Circle Award for that. Yes. And that's what took me to America
41:49
Right. Having the confidence of an award, because lots of people go to America on spec
41:54
Yes. But if you've got an award in your pocket, you propel yourself just that bit above the hoi polloi
42:01
But as we just started talking about, ambition isn't something that, that word doesn't seem to fit you
42:08
and yet you wanted to do better work. Is that what we're talking about here
42:12
Yes, I did want to do, and I still want to. I'm still hopeful, but I'm to some extent satisfied
42:22
I think if I died tomorrow, I would say, well, I'm sorry I didn't do more Shakespeare, but I did all right
42:29
Yeah, except that, you know, we're looking at doing the Scorsese, doing the Baz Luhrmann, doing the Harry Potters
42:38
doing that. I mean, an astonishing people I think would be surprised, and then the stage stuff doing
42:43
Wicked. People would be surprised to hear you say that, I think, don't you
42:49
Well, I mean, I can't speak for people if they're surprised. I honestly
42:56
believe there isn't an actress alive who doesn't feel that they should have
43:00
had a better career. Even Judi Dench probably thinks there were things that
43:04
she didn't do that she would have liked to have done. It's what gets you out of bed in the morning, I suppose, isn't it
43:09
So tell me about arriving in Los Angeles, arriving in America. Well, that was a big piece of fun
43:17
I mean, I said to Menachem Golan, who was the... That was the first time I went, when I went from the critic circle
43:29
He was the producer of Little Dorrit, which is what I won it for
43:35
and I said to him I want you to pay for my
43:40
hotel in New York three nights I will pay everything else but I want three nights in the best hotel
43:48
in New York and he did do it, he did give me that I went over economy of course
43:53
and Pat Hodge advised me on my wardrobe because she's such a good friend
44:00
and since the Girls of Slender Means and she's good on wardrobe
44:04
and so I kitted myself out and I got to the Plaza Hotel
44:10
That's where I was put. I got myself a publicist and she got me on the equivalent of This Morning
44:20
I can't remember what it was called, The Morning Show on CBS with Katie Couric
44:25
That's right. And she interviewed me and Johnny Carson happened to see it
44:30
and he thought, oh, she's quite interesting. and so they flew me down to LA and that's how I got an agent and how I got Norman Lear
44:39
and how I got oh something like $250,000 a year just to be there
44:45
Incredible. It was amazing. What are you doing inside at this point Is it like being in a safari park or is it like being in a I was laughing Yes that what I mean Just laughing It just hilarious yes i was very lucky and i met lots of lovely people and made lots of friends
45:02
and i lived in santa monica on ocean avenue and it was a very luxy time of my life
45:10
and then i mean then there's some massive films a few years later as well isn't it yes the age
45:17
of innocence most obviously perhaps that was a wonderful experience it got you a bafta
45:22
Should probably have got you an Oscar, shouldn't it? Well, I think I should have been nominated
45:27
but that little twit, Winona Ryder, she managed to oust it from me
45:36
And I'm not fond of her. You're not... Why do you do that, do you think
45:40
Because, I mean, there's a long list of people that you've gone on the record as... You don't have to. It doesn't..
45:45
You just feel the need... No, I mean, I say whom I love as well
45:49
You do? No, that's very true. I don't just hate people and I don't hate her, but she got in my way
45:55
Yes. In a very unfair way because she wrote to every single member
46:00
of the Hollywood Press Association. Is that right? Lobbied. She lobbied. She lobbied
46:08
But people do that in Hollywood. They didn't know that. They do that
46:11
I wasn't going to do that, but she did it and she got the nomination
46:15
And then I think she got... Did she get the Oscar? I think she might have done
46:20
And Romeo and Juliet, you've also had slightly unkind things to say about Leonardo DiCaprio
46:24
No, not unkind. No, OK, sorry. Well, he would think they were unkind
46:29
Oh, well, I hope he wouldn't. No? Look, he was smelly. Yeah
46:32
It's not... But he's not smelly now. Are you sure? He might be smelly. I am sure, because I met him
46:37
He looked smelly in that era. He looked a bit smelly. Well, he was. Yes. He just didn't bother to wash
46:42
And when you're in Mexico, it's hot. No. So, you know. When did you start getting recognised in the street then
46:48
By, forgive the term, by normal people as opposed to by theatrical types or..
46:55
I think it was after Harry Potter. Was it that? Was it really that? Not after Romeo and Juliet even
47:01
No, I don't think it was after Romeo and Juliet. But after Harry Potter? Yes
47:06
What was that like? It's lovely. I love it. I love it when people come up to me and it's just magical
47:15
I mean, today when I was having lunch in Great Portland Street
47:19
I was sitting outside and lots of people came up to me and I just love it
47:25
Professor Sprout. Yes, Professor Sprout. So that's another pivot then. So we've got the Dickens stuff
47:31
So that's act one up until, of the career, act one up until the Dickens show
47:37
act two up until Harry Potter, and then act three when you have this lovely pick and mix career really
47:45
People ring you up and say, do you want to come and do the real Marigold Hotel with some lovely people and some right arses
47:51
Do you want to make a documentary? Do you want to work with Alan Cumming, who you must have loved many years, I imagine
47:58
Yes, I've known him a long time. He's been here and I can see why you're so close
48:04
Well, he's very open and honest too. I think Graham Norton's had a lot to do with it, I have to say
48:11
because I was on a programme with him, his programme, and I had a very successful time with Will.i.am
48:19
Yes, I know, I saw that. And that seemed to, people seemed to relish it
48:24
and then I got asked back and so I get onto these chat shows
48:29
and it's lovely and I meet people. So there's a chicken and egg thing going on there
48:33
Without Professor Sprout, you probably wouldn't have been famous enough to get onto the chat shows
48:39
Oh, absolutely. And then, of course, the chat show personality develops its own momentum
48:45
and draws new offers and new things to do. Do you say no to a lot now
48:50
Oh, yes, I do. When did you start saying no to a lot of stuff? Post-Potter? Yes, probably post-Potter
48:58
Yes, there are some things I won't do. So how do you choose then? How do you decide what's your thing
49:02
Well, I talk to Lindy King, my agent at United Agents, and Olivia Homan and Gabriella Cap
49:10
I mean, there's so many people in the agency. I forget who they are sometimes
49:15
But, yes, I discuss it. But some things I don't really want to do
49:21
I won't do quiz shows. No. And I won't do trivial things
49:27
I don't want to dwindle into triviality. We've skipped over so much
49:32
And some of it's still voice work, work like um mrs plethora in in legend of the guardians um but also doing the the arts in james
49:44
and the giant peach with joanna lumley i mean that was fun yes you could tell that was fun i mean how
49:48
could it not be fun but the so the criteria through which you choose the work you want to do
49:54
we'll leave out the the trivial stuff and the quiz shows but if you've got three or four
49:58
decent parts all of which have a decent call upon your time and attention how then do you
50:04
decide which one? Well, it's about the script, the people in it and the location
50:11
I'll do substandard work if I can travel. OK. Is that why you did
50:16
the Real Marigold show? For the travel? Oh, I did it for the travel, yes, because I didn't know
50:22
who the other people were going to be. Did you know who they were when you were told who they were
50:27
I wasn't told, really. I just sort of... Did you just work it out? That's why it's quite good telly
50:32
really, isn't it? Yes. Because you feel like an eavesdropper. Yes, well, I didn't know that Bobby George was going to become an important friend
50:40
Because I'd never heard of him. He's a lovely man, but it's a lovely relationship that develops
50:44
He wears his heart on his sleeve. He's a great man. Well, you can't see it because of all the tattoos, but he would if you could wear his heart on his sleeve
50:49
He's a really special man. Yeah, that comes across. And that's, again, you collecting people, isn't it
50:54
And being open to the relationship. Well, you couldn't not fall in love with Bobby
51:00
I think everybody did. and just, it was a wonderful experience, that
51:05
And I travelled, and among the people that I travelled with was Stanley Johnson, because we went to St Petersburg
51:12
Who you didn't warm to quite as much. Not at all. No. No, the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree there, I don't think, has it
51:20
Could you have done politics? Very political, I mean, and again, we've glossed over the experimental theatre
51:26
Would that be with Joan Littlewood or...? No, I wasn't sort of functioning at that time when she was
51:34
But very much in that tradition. I did gay sweatshop. Yes, of course
51:38
But, no, I should have done more experimental theatre, actually. That was a gap
51:45
I wish I'd done more with Théâtre de Complicité because they were wonderful
51:50
That was a great company. Simon McBurney, who directed me in the Beckett. Yes
51:58
that was a great experience. But that is, I mean, I mentioned that earlier
52:04
I hadn't realised it was so recent. That's 2009, isn't it, Endgame at the Duchess Theatre
52:08
Yes, correct. So, again, something that is born of your newfound celebrity in a way
52:15
and that someone has calculated you will sell West End tickets even to something quite, I mean, Beckett can be quite impenetrable
52:20
I don know if they thought about whether I sell it because they had Mark Rylance Yes They didn need anybody else He quite wonderful You worked with everyone Yes I worked
52:31
with everybody. I mean, literally. Is there anyone on your list? If you had a list, if you had a bingo sheet of like the biggest names or the best names in the business, not
52:37
the biggest. Is there anyone you haven't actually worked with? I didn't work with Ralph Richardson or John Gielgud and I admired them both so much and I would love to have worked with them
52:46
but I worked with many other great people. So if I'd met you at any other point in your life
52:53
and I'd said, let's say, what are your ambitions? Keep coming back to the ambition
53:01
What would you have said? At one point, I just want to make a living, right? Yeah
53:04
I just want to earn a crust and then... And then I want to be at the RSC and the National
53:10
and I never have been. Why not? I think I wasn't considered good enough
53:18
And then when I was considered good enough, I was never available
53:22
OK. So circumstance as much as anything else. Yes, circumstance. It's a funny one, that, isn't it
53:28
Yes, I'm sad. But I did work with Peter Hall several times and that was a great joy
53:34
He was a wonderful director. And I remember when I auditioned for him for Orpheus Dessen
53:41
And he said, why haven't I met you before? And I thought, because of these sodding casting directors
53:47
Getting through that, getting through those gates, the gatekeepers, and big musicals as well
53:53
I mean, it's... I know, that's ridiculous. I mean, I can't sing
53:58
I look as if I can sing, but I can't. And it is absurd that I started with Fiddler on the Roof
54:05
and I did Canterbury Tales and I did Wicked. On Broadway as well
54:12
On Broadway. What was that like? I mean, that's massive. That was thrilling. Again, you were ticking all these boxes
54:16
If the Cambridge Footlights, the young woman being bullied a bit, or a lot
54:22
at Cambridge Footlights, if you'd handed her this list now, albeit that I understand what you say about all actresses
54:27
thinking that they would have liked to do more and thinking about the path not taken
54:31
If I'd handed young Miriam a list now, this thing I've got in front of me
54:36
which has got most of your work on it, but probably not all of it, what would she have said
54:41
Blimey. She wouldn't have believed you, would she? No. No, she wouldn't
54:48
It's been a rollicking ride and thrilling, and I'm very grateful. And it's not over yet
54:57
No, we'll just get on to that now, because we're nearly out of time. We haven't mentioned Blackadder
55:01
We haven't mentioned all the sort of TV turns and comedy. Well, I should mention The Girls of Slender Means
55:09
because believe it or not, Every so often we have a reunion. Do you really
55:12
And we're having one at the end of this month. You don't do the photograph again, do you? Not the nudie bit
55:18
But Moira Armstrong is still alive. She's 92. Gosh. And Pat Hodge and Jane Cussons and Rosalind Shanks
55:30
and who else? Judith Paris is still there. And I've asked Jack Shepard to join us
55:39
because he was in it too. You've done quite a bit with him
55:44
You did a big stage thing with him as well, didn't you? Oh, gosh, that was... The nasty one, the really..
55:48
That was a horror. Yes. The White Devil at the Old Vic. That's dark, right
55:52
That was a low point in my life. Because you didn't get on with one of your other co-stars
55:57
or because things were bad off stage? It was a shocking production. Yeah
56:01
I mean, the thing is that Mike Lindsay Hogg, who directed it, is a darling
56:05
Right. He's an adorable man. he hadn't got a clue what to do with the white devil
56:10
It's a difficult play. And Glenda Jackson was in charge. And, you know, she's a bit of a prima donna
56:17
She knows what she wants and she sets out to get it. And she was terrible in it
56:23
And so was I and so was everybody else. Do you know in rehearsal or do you not know
56:29
Like you said about the Dickens show, it goes silent at the end. You must have an inkling that this is pretty good or pretty special
56:35
but you don't know for sure until the house erupts. Do you know when you're working on a stinker
56:41
I knew it wasn't bad. I knew it could be wonderful. But the white devil was shite
56:47
And do you know that from pretty early on? Well, I think we did. You're contractually obliged to see it through to the end
56:53
but you know it's not hiding to nothing. It's a funny old business, isn't it, really
56:58
Well, it is and it was hard and there was wonderful people in it
57:02
Yes, clearly. Like Patrick McGee. On paper, it should have been a smash hit, shouldn't it
57:06
And Jack, Jonathan Price. I mean, James Villers, I adored him, but he was terrible
57:13
I mean, we were all shocking. It was a nightmare. Not many actors would say that even now, would they
57:19
I mean, would any of them? I don't think Glenda Jackson would, would she? I don't know what she thought
57:26
I know she and I, she, I called her a cow and she called me an amateur
57:31
And I think she won. oh dear so if we said what what else then i mean what what i mean what what else i mean there's more
57:41
isn't there like you say they're not not done yet is i mean do you just actually wait to see what
57:46
comes through the letterbox have a look at it decide whether or not you want to do it or do you
57:50
as you did with the dickens show you're not going to make your own destiny anymore are you
57:54
No, I'm going to go out around Australia talking about my life and doing bits of Dickens
58:04
I can't let him go. I won't let him go. Because I know that's where my best work is in those moments of Dickens
58:12
But I hope I'll get some film work that I can show something different, something light and maybe menacing
58:23
I'd like to be menacing. Yes. I don't want you to be menacing
58:28
Don't you? No, I don't. Oh, all right, then I won't. And that's it
58:33
I mean, there's this lovely sort of autumn of your career when you're a national treasure
58:39
whether you're comfortable with that description or not. A national trinket, I'd be called. I think that's rather witty
58:44
A national trinket. You are the scourge of producers. You probably know this, as we alluded to earlier
58:49
because everyone I mentioned to that I was interviewing you today They said, oh, be careful
58:53
I said, don't worry, it's pre-recorded. She can't get me into any trouble. I wonder why they say that
58:59
Because you keep swearing in the most unsweary of studio environments. That's all
59:05
Yes, my language is very bad. It's been very good today. I'm disappointed, actually
59:10
I feel a bit let down. Well, I want to show the best of myself, not the worst of myself
59:15
I'm very grateful to you. And you revel, although you didn't need it
59:19
you revel in the affection that you've inspired in generations of film goers
59:25
But you didn't need it like a lot of actors do. I don't know if I needed it or not, but I'm bloody glad I've got it
59:33
And so are we. Mary Margulis, thank you so much. Thank you, James
59:49
Thank you
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