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Europe 'ready to deploy' troops to Ukraine, Defence Sec says | Tonight with Andrew Marr
Oct 22, 2025
Today, Andrew was joined by:
- Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, former Chair of the Conservative Party and Minister for Faith and Communities
- Lord Jonathan Sumption, Former Justice of the Supreme Court
- Lord Simon McDonald, Former Head of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Head of the Diplomatic Service until 2020
- Tina Brown, Former Vanity Fair Editor and bestselling author of *The Palace Papers* and *Fresh Hell* newsletter writer
- Zenna Hopson, Former Chair of Ofsted
- David Greenwood, representing victims of sexual grooming gangs
Listen to the full show on Global Player: https://app.af.globalplayer.com/Br0x/LBCYouTubeListenLive
#andrewmarr #donaldtrump #russiaukrainewar #putin #zelenskyy #ukpolitics #politics #lbc
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0:00
On your radio, on the LBC app, and play LBC
0:12
Leading Britain's conversation, this is LBC. From Global's newsroom at six o'clock, a third survivor has quit her role on the national
0:26
inquiry into grooming gangs. Hannah, which is not her real name, says there is still a lack of understanding into the scandal
0:34
Rotherham child abuse and grooming survivor Sammy Woodhouse has told LBC she's not surprised by the criticism
0:41
There's also the race and religion factor to this and, you know, the fact that it's been covered up
0:46
because the majority of perpetrators were Pakistani or Muslim men. I can't see any government, not just the Labour government, but I can't see anyone really wanting to tackle that head on
1:01
The government says claims it's diluting the review are false. The Chancellor has told LBC there is no recession on the horizon despite warnings from prominent economists
1:12
It says government borrowing rose by £20 billion last month. MPs could investigate the handling of Prince Andrew's residence on the Windsor estate
1:21
He's facing growing pressure to give up the 30-room mansion following fresh allegations from Virginia Dufresne
1:28
Andrew denies wrongdoing. And heavy downpours and winds of up to 75 mph are set to hit parts of the UK later this week
1:36
Yellow Met Office alerts covering London, the South Midlands and eastern parts come in on Thursday
1:42
In the city, the FTSE 100 has closed up 23 points at 94.26
1:47
The pound buys $1.33 and €1.15. LBC weather showers easing for many this evening, a few lingering along western coasts and in the far north, lows of three degrees
1:59
From Global's newsroom for LBC, I'm Amelia Cox. This is LBC from Global, leading Britain's conversation
2:11
It's 6pm. Now, tonight with Andrew Marr. Good evening. Something is changing in the atmosphere around how we treat each other
2:23
what you can say, what you can't say, and when the law steps in. This is either a great day for
2:31
free speech, or it's the British establishment knuckling under to right-wing criticism
2:37
Two stories. First, after Graham Linehan, the Irish comic writer, was told he wouldn't be
2:42
facing any charges after his arrest at Heathrow over social media posts about trans rights
2:48
the Met says it will stop investigating non-crime hate incidents. That's when one person's actions
2:55
or words are perceived to be motivated by hostility or prejudice to a particular group
3:01
In plain terms, we're talking about coppers at the front door first thing in the morning after
3:05
a teenage tweet they have been told upsets somebody. Now, if this is stopping, it is a big
3:11
moment. It's the police, not the politicians who've made the change. The Met commissioner
3:15
says he doesn't think his officers should be policing toxic culture war debates. But
3:22
we know the police always alert to a nod from above. Second story, and this does involve
3:28
the government directly, ministers are no longer going to propose a new definition of
3:33
Islamophobia, which many people think would become a backdoor blasphemy law. Again, this
3:39
is a moment. If you hate Muslims and you want them attacked, then that is incitement to violence and
3:46
the common law will come for you. But this was different. This was an attempt to stifle criticism
3:52
of Islam. If so, why stop there? Why not ban criticism of Christianity or Hinduism or paganism
4:01
In a free country, I think all religions, including Islam, should be fair targets for criticism
4:07
The government hasn't actually announced it's dropping Islamophobia. That has emerged through leaks and mutterings
4:12
presumably because ministers don't want to make a statement saying, we were thinking of doing this really stupid thing
4:19
but good news, folks, we have decided not to do this really stupid thing
4:24
Nevertheless, as with non-crime hate incidents, this is a moment in the culture of modern Britain
4:29
Many people will applaud and say it's a return to common sense. Others may be horrified
4:34
Let's hear first from Baroness Saeed Avarsi, the former minister and co-chair of the Conservative Party
4:40
who resigned from the cabinet 11 years ago over Gaza and left the Conservative Party itself last year
4:46
Baroness Avarsi, wonderful to have you on the show. First of all, if it's as reported that the government has dropped its idea of a specific definition of Islamophobia
4:58
on the way to a blasphemy law, is that a good thing in your view or a bad thing
5:02
It's so much more nuanced than that, Andrew. First of all, there is nobody, as far as I'm aware, that has worked on dealing with anti-Muslim racism, Islamophobia, anti-Muslim intolerance, anti-Muslim hatred, call it what you want
5:14
There is nobody who actually wants a blasphemy law, if for no other reason, but because Muslims, for example, don't believe that Jesus was the son of God
5:22
And therefore, if we were to have a blasphemy law, there would be many, many Muslims in the dock
5:28
And also in this country, we have a great tradition of freedom of speech and freedom of thought and freedom of expression
5:35
And I don't think that there is anybody who's been involved in this work, including myself, who would want to curtail that in any way
5:42
I think the work on anti-Muslim racism, Islamophobia, like I said, call it what you want, call it pink bananas
5:47
I think what it means in the end is that we think that there should be a non-legally binding working definition
5:56
So this is not a definition in law, just like the anti-Semitism definition is not a definition in law, but it provides a scope within which you can do policy work
6:07
And I don't think there'd be anybody who would argue that we don't shouldn't have a definition of anti-Semitism, which we have now had for many, many years on the books and used as a tool to make policy
6:18
And I therefore can't understand why anybody is saying we shouldn't have a definition for anti-Muslim racism
6:23
But to be absolutely clear, you would say that the ability of individuals to criticise Islam as a religion
6:30
however offensive and painful that might be to believing Muslims, should be part of our culture
6:36
It always has been. And of course, you know, at the moment, Andrew, we have a two tier system in this country
6:42
We have one tier which protects Jewish and Sikh communities, both on a religious and a racial basis
6:50
And we have a second tier where Muslims and Christians are only protected on a racial, on a religious basis, but not on a, sorry, are protected if they are subjected to racial attacks, but they are only defined as a religious community
7:06
So if you said certain things about Judaism and Jews and certain things about Sikhism and Sikhs, there would be potential criminal prosecutions
7:16
You could say exactly the same things about Islam and Muslims and they would not be because that group is not seen as a racialized group in the way that Jews and Sikhs are seen Isn that the problem that we raised as it were some groups you say Sikhs and Jews above other groups And actually we all need to be the same
7:36
We all need to be on the same level. And that therefore, the common law is enough
7:40
The common law says that, you know, if I criticise any group, a religious group or other group
7:45
in a way that incites violence, I can be prosecuted for that. Isn't that enough
7:50
I agree with you that in this country, we have a great tradition of the rule of law
7:54
and everybody being equal before the law and all communities being equal before the law
8:00
And you can either say that we need to reduce the status of Jewish and Sikh communities
8:05
to bring them in line with the rest of the communities, or you have to say that we have to raise the status of Christians and Hindus and Muslims
8:12
to bring them in line with Sikh and Jewish communities, because we cannot have a two-tier system where some communities are protected racially and religiously
8:21
but other communities are not. I know that she is probably the most senior Muslim politician in the country, not just now, but for a very long time
8:30
But Shabana Mahmood, the new Home Secretary, seems to be flexing her muscles a bit on this
8:35
Are you pleased that she is being more outspoken or more robust than predecessors
8:39
I don't think this is an issue which should be laid at the door of Shabana Mahmood or even whether she is or she isn't flexing
8:46
I think ultimately that, you know, it is when straight people advocate for gay rights
8:52
It is when Christians and Muslims advocate for Jewish rights. And it is when people of no faith and other faiths advocate for Muslims that we end up with genuine true equality
9:03
And I genuinely want the prime minister to lead on this because this is a community of four to five million facing the most appalling attacks
9:10
Twenty six separate incidents simply in the last couple of weeks in relation to mosques being attacked
9:16
And it is right for the prime minister to say that all communities in this country deserve protection
9:21
and that includes British Muslims. What do you think is going on at the moment
9:25
Because there has been a great rise in attacks. There's a great online hostility to Muslims right across the West
9:31
not just in Britain. And that seems to me to be around a small number, perhaps
9:35
of imams who are saying, actually, we should convert everybody who want to take over those countries
9:39
and that being taken as a general Muslim view. What do you think is going on? So that in itself is a view which I think is inward-looking
9:48
and would be defined as something which is defining a whole community through the actions of a few
9:54
If somebody who happened to be Christian or Jewish or Hindu or Sikh, an individual
10:00
did something that was appalling or their religious leaders did something that was appalling
10:06
I would not superimpose that on the whole community. For example, when you hear extremist Jewish settlers using the language
10:13
and the kind of incitement to hatred that we have seen in recent years
10:18
I do not superimpose that on the whole of the Jewish community across the world
10:23
So it's when you stigmatise, stereotype, demonise and place tropes on a whole community
10:30
that in itself is the kind of challenges that we need to stop. And do you think the mood is darkening or has been darkening towards Muslims recently
10:37
I mean, just today, Robert Jenrick from your old party said he would consider banning the burqa
10:43
if he was in power. Do you think the mood is darkening quite fast? I think the mood has been darkening for many, many years, Andrew
10:50
When I first spoke about this in 2011, I said that Islamophobia had passed the dinner table test
10:55
I said that this form of racism was, unfortunately, Britain's bigotry blind spot
11:00
the last form of acceptable form of bigotry and something that was found in the dinner tables
11:06
and dining rooms of respectable society. It's found in editorial newsrooms. It's found, tragically, on the floor of the House of
11:13
Commons and the House of Lords. And we have to be able to say that in this country
11:19
people are of equal worth and value. It cannot be that 70 years, Andrew, after my, you know
11:26
in-country relationship with Britain, having had a grandfather, maternal and paternal, who'd served in the British Indian Army, having served my country at the cabinet table and my
11:36
child now back in our armed forces serving this country, we cannot be saying to this country
11:42
and people like me and our families who have served this country loyally for generations
11:48
that this is a country that will fail to protect you as equal citizens. And just directly, what do you think about a man who might well be the next leader of your old party
11:58
Robert Jenrick, saying he wants to ban the burgh? What do you think about that? I don't really think about what Robert normally says
12:04
I think Robert needs to think more about what he says. Baroness Farsi, very, very succinctly put
12:10
Thank you so much for that. Now, listening to that was Lord Jonathan Sumption, the former Supreme Court
12:16
Welcome, Lord Sumption. First of all, what do you make of this shift in what the government seems to be doing around Islamophobia
12:23
Do you welcome it? Well, I agree with pretty well everything that Baroness Worsley has said
12:29
and I don't think that I can really sensibly add anything. Well, in that case, let's not ask you to do that
12:35
And let's move on to the shift on non-crime hate incidents, because after the Graham Linehan arrest and all the publicity around that
12:44
it does seem that the Met police in particular have said, we are not getting involved in this anymore
12:49
Do you welcome that? Yes, I do. And I think that it's about time that other police forces took the same line
12:56
The problem about non-crime hate incidents is that there is absolutely no statutory basis for this at all
13:05
It is simply an administrative procedure which the police have adopted. And I think that that is not consistent with the rule of law
13:14
What makes it worse is that the director of public prosecutions and the police have agreed a definition
13:21
which makes a non-crime hate incident dependent entirely on what the complainant thinks
13:27
Yes, this word perception, perception of a hostility or a dislike. Indeed. And indeed, before the definition was shortened quite recently, the definition actually contained a sentence which said that policemen should not inquire whether there is any objective basis for the complaint
13:51
I mean, that really is an appalling state of affairs. Remember that non-crime hate incidents, when they're recorded, can appear on an enhanced criminal record check
14:02
It can damage people's jobs. It can also lead to harassment and to extremely intimidating encounters like the one which at Heathrow Airport Gary Lannan had
14:14
Well, many of us have seen many other examples of that kind of thing online, videos of police arriving at doors and being extremely aggressive about it
14:22
Do you think that this particular procedure has put the law under ridicule, made the law ridiculous in many people's eyes
14:29
I think that it has made the police ridiculous. It's hard to say that it's discredited the law because the law never created this species of police activity
14:39
I mean, the law is tolerably clear. It basically attacks those who use their rights of free speech to incite violence
14:52
And it serves as an aggravating factor for criminal offences If a criminal offence is committed for racially motivated reasons you may get a larger sentence I got no problem about either of those
15:06
and they're both embodied in statutes. But non-crime hate incidents are something which
15:12
is really quite inconsistent with the rule of law. So there is a piece of good news
15:17
as it were, this shift of position by the Met Police, at least. I'm sorry to dart around from
15:23
subject to subject, but I have a great legal brain in front of me. So I must ask you also
15:27
about what appears to be a growing argument going on between the Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmoud
15:31
I was mentioning her just now, and the European Commission on Human Rights, who have intervened
15:36
to say that the government's ban on Palestine action is ridiculous or wrong, and also that it
15:42
doesn't like what the government's saying, or what the British courts have been saying
15:46
on trans rights. This seems, again, to be quite a significant shift from the government. They are
15:52
taking on the ECHR in a way I haven't seen for a while. No, that is true
15:57
And I think that there is a growing tide of opinion among people who previously supported our participation in the ECHR
16:08
who now have strong reservations or have come out as out-and-out opponents of it
16:15
I think this is a movement that we need to take seriously
16:19
Lord Sumption, fantastic to have you on the show. thank you very much indeed
16:24
Now Brexit has been brought back to the heart of politics by the Chancellor
16:27
Rachel Reeves who's preparing the nation for a bitter pill in her upcoming
16:32
budget. More on that next for the time now 6.16. This is LBC
16:37
Mickey could try to sell his car privately or get it sold today with we buy any car
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He could spend days on end trying to sell to a bunch of time wasters
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18:04
Thameslink Railway, where every stop is a story. Tonight with Andrew Marr
18:09
Watch live on both Global Player and the new LBC app. 6.18. So funny how things change
18:18
For an awful long time after the referendum, Brexit was a word Labour didn't even want to say out loud
18:25
So worried about allegations they wanted to reverse it, they simply couldn't bring themselves to mention the word at all
18:33
Didn't appear in Keir Starmer speeches. Didn't appear when Rachel Reeves was talking about the economy
18:37
Now, screech of brakes they seem to have decided ahead of the budget
18:41
They need to talk about Brexit all the time. Brexit damaged the economy
18:47
Farage and Brexit. Brexit, Brexit, Brexit. Is this very shrewd or very silly
18:53
Let's talk now to LBC's political correspondent, Aggie Shaumbra. It's certainly everywhere again, isn't it
18:58
It's certainly everywhere. And it really depends who you talk about, whether they say that it's shrewd or whether it's very silly
19:04
But Rachel Reeves today was speaking to an audience of 350 business leaders, regional mayors and investors
19:09
And she said, we know that things like austerity, cuts to capital spending and Brexit have had a bigger impact on our economy than was even projected back then
19:20
And basically, I was speaking to the Treasury. They were suggesting, look, she's trying to paint a diagnosis of why we've had such poor growth, why we've had poor economic results
19:30
They would say she's not blaming anyone, although it sounds an awful lot like she's blaming Brexit
19:35
She's blaming the loss, isn't she? Well, yes. But they say she wants to be the one to find a solution. So lots of people I've spoken to suggest this is a risk. They think it's a risk that at the moment they have to take. But they say that there is a danger as well. You put Brexit back up the agenda
19:51
And of course, as you said in your introduction, the question after blaming Brexit or as close to blaming Brexit as I think you can get tends to be, well, OK, are you going to relitigate it
20:02
Is there going to be a second referendum? To which the answer that I've had today is no, not necessarily because they don't want to, but because they think that that wouldn't work for the economics
20:10
They think that is just not a realistic possibility at all. Lots of people suggesting that it is true and that they think that actually they should have started blaming Brexit earlier
20:21
Of course, this is all in the run-up to the budget. They've got just weeks left before the budget
20:26
And that, you know, people think this is an attempt to get away as much as they can
20:31
and pay the picture for the tax rises that I think everyone believes are inevitable. They're softening us up
20:36
But going back to what you're saying, it's a really interesting question. OK, so Brexit's a problem
20:40
It has subdued growth or damped down growth even more than expected for quite a while
20:44
And this is all, as far as I can tell, pretty much true. But what do you then do about it
20:50
even if you don't go back into the EU, do you try and go back into the single market where we would
20:54
then be rule takers, not involved in setting the rules and just accept that as a price? I think
21:00
that would be pretty unpopular around the country. I think that would be unpopular, but it is
21:04
interesting looking at what pollsters say. So, for example, Anthony Wells from YouGov has said
21:09
Brexit is widely seen as being bad for the economy, bad for public finances. So, at least they're
21:14
travelling with public opinion and blaming Brexit may well sound a little less self-serving than
21:20
trying to blame the other side. And that is more or less what the polling is showing
21:24
That's more or less what the polling is showing too. So I think that is the reason that they are
21:28
doing it. And one person I was speaking to in government was basically suggesting they think this is very shrewd politics because they say when you get to the next general election, Nigel Farage
21:36
will have to make a choice. Does he want trade deals with Europe or does he want to end those
21:43
and potentially make the economy worse? So I think they are trying as much as they can to set traps
21:47
as well for Reform UK ahead of the next election. This all comes, Andrew, as well, as the Chancellor told LBC today
21:54
that there is no recession on the horizon despite all of those economic warnings
21:58
from the Bank of England and the IMF. Which suggests perhaps that she is getting slightly more upbeat
22:04
or optimistic private messaging from the various bodies that we've heard so far in public
22:09
What else is she saying? Well, she basically said that she wants to unashamedly rebuild relations
22:14
with the EU to reduce some of the costs that she was talking about earlier
22:18
But it was really interesting when I was phoning around people today basically saying, do you think this is going to work
22:23
Do you think this is a good political strategy And a lot of people were basically saying it true It potentially come too late and said that now until the budget what Rachel Reeves and the Prime Minister and everybody else in the Cabinet needs to do
22:36
is just unashamedly say this over and over and over again and try and blame Brexit as much as possible so that it sticks, exactly
22:43
And I gather she was fairly salty about Prince Andrew as well
22:47
She was indeed fairly salty about Prince Andrew. So lots of government ministers being asked about what they make of Prince Andrew
22:53
And she basically said today, when asked whether or not Prince Andrew should have paid rent, of course, he's just been paying a peppercorn, basically said, you know, she thinks everybody should pay their way
23:04
So very strong language there from the Chancellor today on that. Great clarice on that, Aggie. Thank you very much indeed
23:10
And we may pick up on that story again. Meanwhile, it goes on
23:15
Overnight, Russian drones hit Ukraine, destroying buildings, killing people. But President Trump's gone back to bullying Ukraine's President Zelensky, telling him that his country will be destroyed unless he agrees to hand over more land to Putin
23:29
Our Defense Secretary John Healy said earlier today that Britain was prepared to spend more than £100 million to deploy troops to Ukraine if there was a peace deal
23:37
Well, at the moment, giant-sized if. I'm joined now by Lord Simon MacDonald, the former head of the Foreign Office
23:44
And let's just pick up from there. The latest news is that Donald Trump is now saying that his great one-to-one with President Putin in Budapest may not go ahead, or at least there are no plans for that
23:56
Do you think he has been played by Putin and do you think he's beginning to recognize that
24:01
It's deja vu all over again. I think, yes, he has been played by President Putin
24:07
But as this happens again, I hope that he's seeing that. And so when it happens another time, his reaction will be more subtle than it has been the last three times
24:20
Because he moved from saying that he thought Ukraine could win the war and take back all its territory and that he might give Ukraine Tomahawk missiles to exactly the reverse position within a day or two
24:31
Indeed. And what seems to happen is that Ukraine has a good day, a good few days
24:38
Moscow, particularly Putin, spots that, doesn't like that and reacts. So last week, all the talk was about the supply of Tomahawk missiles
24:48
Tomahawk comes in various different varieties. The ones under discussion could have hit Moscow and St. Petersburg
24:55
Putin really didn't want that. So he got on the phone to President Trump and worked the magic he's worked several times before
25:04
Made nice. What's your assessment at the moment of the European determination to back Ukraine
25:10
Because that's the other part of the picture. I think that, too, has been pretty consistent
25:15
When Ukraine suffers a reverse in Washington, the rest of Europe gets together to back Ukraine
25:22
And that has happened again. So leading EU countries plus the United Kingdom restate the completeness of their support for Kiev and hope that Washington notices
25:38
And what's your assessment of where we are actually in the war at the moment? I read earlier today that the assessment is 100,000 Russian troops have been killed, not injured, but killed this year alone, and that Putin is beginning to have some difficulties about recruiting enough to keep resupplying his army
25:55
What's your assessment? The latest figures are that one in 27 Russian men have been enlisted
26:02
So this is a huge part of the population. In three and a half years, they've suffered over a million casualties
26:09
i.e. killed or injured. The rate right now is about 1,000 casualties
26:15
so killed and injured, per day for very little gain territorially. They are making some gains, but not sufficient to justify that level of bloodletting
26:30
Russia has shown immense resilience. Nobody can see when that will come to an end, but surely it will
26:39
No country can withstand that level of casualty indefinitely. So this is much, much greater than the war in Afghanistan for the Russians
26:47
Correct. And we have seen maybe quite small, but quite vocal anti-Putin protests starting to take place
26:54
Mr. Putin has his country under control. And that historically is the case all the way until the moment the leader loses control. So that must be on his mind as well. But at the moment, I don't think he's worried about the domestic front
27:09
Let me ask you, I was just discussing with Aggie just now, this use of Brexit, Brexit, Brexit by the government
27:17
Is it your sense that the mood in the country towards Europe has changed enough for the government to be a little bit bolder on the subject
27:24
Or would you advise caution? I would say it takes two to tango. Changing our mind about Brexit has to be synchronised with Brussels changing its mind
27:35
So we may be in the early days of putting out more positive feelers
27:42
But I do not think this government will go very far or should go very far unless it's certain of a positive reaction in Brussels
27:51
And not much sign of that so far. I think you were probably in post in the Foreign Office when Prince Andrew was over in China and declined the offer to stay in British embassies
28:04
and bought very, very expensive hotel suites instead, presumably on the taxpayers' money
28:11
I mean, 50,000 quid or so is being talked about as the cost of accommodating him in hotels
28:17
What's your feeling about that? I can't comment on that. I don't know the detail
28:22
But all I would say, Andrew, is that when someone falls, and Prince Andrew has fallen hard and completely
28:31
there is a tendency to think that nothing that person did was any good
28:37
The prince was a demanding trade envoy for sure, but he was effective
28:44
He had the best access and he worked pretty hard. So whilst I can't comment on the detail
28:50
I think we shouldn't lose sight that over his long public service
28:55
he did achieve something. That's very interesting. Let's just circle round to where we started then
29:01
and Ukraine again. John Healy said that we're prepared to spend a lot of money putting in
29:06
peacekeeping forces into Ukraine if there is a peace deal. Now, we both know a peace deal for
29:11
the time being seems very unlikely indeed. Nonetheless, given that President Putin has
29:16
been absolutely clear he would not accept or he would not want or allow or whatever
29:21
Western European troops inside Ukraine, do you think this whole thing is a complete non-starter
29:27
I think it's going to be part of a negotiation. Clearly, President Putin does not want this. It is very easy to understand why he doesn't want it. But although in detail, things are going Russia's way on the ground, the bigger picture is still not going Russia's way. So at some point, President Putin may have to accept things that right now he can't imagine himself accepting
29:53
And in the meantime, we will have to accept continued sort of grey war attacks, you know, drones appearing
29:59
in strange places, perhaps important undersea cables being snipped and the rest of it
30:06
It's going to be an uncomfortable period ahead. But I think NATO will push back
30:12
So after drones appeared over Poland, the Polish shot them down. Yeah
30:19
And I think that would be... And the Poles are now saying that if President Putin flew across Poland to his meeting with
30:25
Trump in Budapest, they would force his plane down and arrest him as a war criminal
30:30
I think the sequencing of announcements would be worth exploring. If it was after the announcement
30:35
of the postponement, maybe that's not so muscular on the part of Warsaw
30:40
Lord MacDonald, always great to talk to you. Thanks so much for coming in
30:45
Now, today, former Prime Minister Boris Johnson was called to give evidence on his decision-making
30:49
about school closures during the Covid pandemic. What can we learn from the government's mistakes
30:55
The time now, 6.30, and Amelia Cox has your news headlines. The government has rejected allegations
31:01
and national inquiry into grooming gangs is being diluted after three survivors quit their roles on the panel
31:08
Jess Phillips has told MPs the review remains laser-focused despite heavy criticism
31:13
The Chancellor has insisted there is no recession on the horizon following warnings from economists
31:19
There has been speculation that Rachel Reeves is preparing to announce a blitz of tax increases and cuts to spending at the budget next month
31:27
And the White House says it has halted work on a summit between Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump
31:32
It follows reports the US president had suggested Ukraine should surrender the entire eastern
31:37
Donbass region last week. LBC weather showers easing for many this evening, a few lingering along western coasts and in
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the far north, lows of three degrees. On the latest episode of The News Agents
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We have Virginia Dufresne's friend and co-author Amy Wallace telling us why she thinks the paedophile ring cover-up could yet be exposed
32:01
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Players must be 18 or over Tonight with Andrew Marr Listen on your smart speaker
33:38
Just say play LBC 6.33. Boris Johnson, remember him, has been giving evidence at the Covid inquiry today about the impact of the lockdown on Britain's children
33:53
We know it was very severe and the damage has been emerging in all sorts of ways, from kids failing to turn up to school afterwards to widespread mental health problems, depression, stress
34:03
Here is the former Prime Minister reacting to what his government did. After the first lockdown, I went to see a school in, I saw several, I remember going to one in Kent and talking to the kids
34:19
It was obvious that some had done, some had been fine and some had been very far from fine
34:25
And I'd say that most had been fine. But a significant number of kids were very badly affected by this thing
34:33
And it was very difficult to remediate. Now, one of the biggest problems was over the exam grades passed down to students unable to take exams in real life
34:43
They were lower than many expected. And Johnson said he regretted that very much
34:47
Let's hear now from Zena Hobson, who was the former chair of Ofsted. Zena, thank you so much for coming in
34:53
Do you think a cohort of children was, as it were, robbed of the exam grades they would have got had the COVID pandemic never happened
35:02
Absolutely. I mean, they were robbed of so much more than that as well
35:07
But the problem was that there was a lot. You talk to a lot of school leaders
35:11
You talk to a lot of people in education at the time as they were preparing to decide how to assess the GCSE and A-level grades
35:20
And there was a lot of talk about not doing down the moderation algorithm, if you want to call it that
35:26
And that still went ahead. And that devastated young people had to be withdrawn
35:30
and we had to go to centre assessed exams. And it was just a part of the whole problem of not listening
35:36
of not having a strategy, of not being inclusive. And frankly, lurching from one crisis with young people to another
35:43
We've seen some pretty fruity WhatsApp messages between Boris Johnson and Number 10, talking about the education department in particular
35:52
under Gavin Williamson at the time. He was clearly outraged and at one point absolutely furious
35:58
about what was going on. In your view, was the Department of Education working properly
36:04
In my view, in my opinion, the leadership at the very top, the Secretary of State, Gavin Williamson, completely failed
36:11
I think he failed his civil servants as well as failed young people
36:17
The direction of the department was entirely wrong. At no point was there a stop
36:22
Let's take a holistic view. Let's work out what young people need. Let's get a strategy for young people
36:26
It simply lurched from one crisis to another. Whenever anything went wrong, it was a real blame culture
36:32
Shove it down. Blame people. Take no responsibility. Sloping shoulders. That is really, really interesting because clearly with hindsight, you know, nobody had hindsight at the time
36:42
It was a really difficult situation. People were making judgments based on imperfect information
36:48
Nonetheless, if that part of government had been working more effectively, had been more decisive
36:53
then a lot of the damage to children that happened because of the pandemic might not have been so
36:58
serious. I think so. And I think also it's a national government level as well, that there
37:03
was never any real effort on thinking about a strategy for children and young people throughout
37:08
the pandemic. They'd been really hard hit by years of austerity. 70% of youth services already gone
37:14
and still no thought And every time people tried to take a holistic look it was stopped and everything was done in a really reactive way And there seemed to be a real lack of proper communication between Number 10
37:27
between the Cabinet Office and between the Department for Education, which left young people hanging. Zena, at the beginning, I mentioned all the different ways in which we could see that
37:35
young people had been damaged by the lockdown, including the increase in mental health problems
37:41
and the increase in absenteeism from schools. What's your overall view of what happened to that cohort of people
37:48
I think that during the pandemic and the lack of attention to a fulsome recovery plan that was proposed
37:56
you know, Kevin did propose a very good recovery plan, that lack of attention to young people is almost criminal
38:01
They have been left utterly devastated. And that's at every level. And you have to see that in the context of the rise of social media
38:09
which they've got access to without a driving licence. They can use whatever they want
38:14
And isolation. They have been left feeling vulnerable, uncared for, and as an afterthought in society
38:20
So these are, as it were, social and perhaps even political problems
38:24
that have been fed into the system and we're living with today. We're living with today and we're expecting our young people to live with
38:31
still without a very good robust strategy for youth, for children and young people
38:36
Absolutely fascinating, Zina Hobson. And thank you very much indeed for coming in and talking to me
38:40
My pleasure. Now, and for a reflection on the pretty agonisingly difficult choices being made at the time
38:46
I'm joined by the former chief scientific advisor to the UK, Sir David King
38:50
Sir David, thank you very much indeed for joining us. The overall narrative, I suppose, around this inquiry is that they overdid it
39:00
You guys overdid it in terms of the lockdown. How does that feel for somebody who's trying to look at the science
39:06
trying to look at the numbers at the time? We should never have been in a position of requiring a lockdown of any kind at all
39:14
So let me just go back right to the beginning. We here in Britain in 2013, the public health England was pushed into the local communities
39:27
and then local communities were not funded to accept it. And so there was a big loss of expertise of public health experts in the UK
39:36
when the outbreak occurred in China, and we knew about it, and we knew the details of what
39:44
was happening. And we also knew, for example, in Guangzhou, they had complete control. There
39:50
were hardly any cases going into hospital in the big province of Guangzhou in China
39:55
They were testing people back in February of 2020. Then the outbreak happens in Italy
40:03
We did not stop Italians coming into this country, which would be the natural response at that point in time
40:11
And then it comes to the UK. Now, the UK had 10 times more cases by the time we get to April than any other country in Europe
40:22
The best behaved country in Europe was Greece. Greece immediately sent ships and airplanes out to China to get equipment to put into their hospitals
40:31
Before they even had a single case, they were preparing for an outbreak of a very serious kind
40:37
because the details were known from China at that time that this was a serious new disease
40:45
And so what I'm saying is, what were we doing with the public health experts
40:50
We didn't bring them in. We were modeling the epidemic. And sorry, by we are talking about the ministers, the prime minister, number 10 at the time
40:59
The picture you're painting seems to be a kind of strange, vague heedlessness
41:04
followed later by panic. Is that unfair? Absolutely right. And panic is what happens when you decide, oh, we better lock down
41:14
That is a panic issue. When did we bring in testing? We should have immediately introduced testing at a very high level
41:23
Anyone showing anything like symptoms should have been tested. I know quite a few people who went down with COVID and were never tested, even though they reported it to their GPs
41:34
So the point I'm making is there was no leadership on this issue whatsoever until it was too late
41:42
And by that time, the disease was so rampant in the UK alone in Europe, as rampant as it was, that lockdown became an inevitable way forward
41:52
Now, it was, can I also just say, because this is very frustrating for me, when I was
41:59
chief scientific advisor, I led a massive operation, international operation, on infectious diseases
42:06
And in that, the report was produced 2006, and we said before 2030, it's highly likely
42:15
that an infectious disease will occur of the kind that happened. I remember this
42:21
There was a kind of plan. There was an expectation that this was going to happen, and yet no preparations were made at all
42:29
So preparations were made, but they were all undone by the incoming government in 2010
42:36
Absolutely fascinating. Sir David King, thank you very, very much for talking
42:41
I find that both chilling and really illuminating. Thank you. Anyway, the government's proposed new national inquiry panel into the grooming gangs seems to be falling apart
42:52
Three survivors of the rape gangs have now quit that, plus the woman who seemed likely to be the chair
42:58
Now, is this because even now the establishment is trying to set the agenda and limit the damage
43:05
Or are some survivors asking for everything on their terms? The minister, Jess Phillips, spoke about this in the comments today
43:14
Look, it would far be it from me to sit here and speculate about where I'd like it to go
43:18
But let me tell you, if I had my way and I was the chair of this inquiry
43:23
you would not be surprised. I think that where I live is one of the places that I have grave concerns about
43:31
because that is where I worked. It wouldn't stop me wanting to look there if I was the chair because it has a..
43:36
David Greenwood, the head of the child abuse department at Svithalski Solicitors
43:40
and he represents victims of the gangs. David, thanks for joining us this evening. Do you get the sense that this entire inquiry process
43:49
is falling apart now? I've never really had the sense that this inquiry process or the plan was
43:57
a credible plan in the first place. It was envisaged when Elon Musk first got into all this
44:07
back in January and Yvette Cooper made her announcement that there would be a series of
44:12
local inquiries to get to the bottom of what happened. And that might expand into even more
44:20
than just five or six. And then under pressure, Keir Starmer in June, stepping off a plane in
44:28
Canada, decided that they would be doing a big statutory inquiry. Now, I don't know how legally
44:36
they going to run these local inquiries and a large statutory inquiry in the sense that statutory inquiries need to take evidence from real live witnesses And there just isn enough time to be able to get to all those witnesses
44:53
in a big statutory inquiry. So that's the situation that we have. I don't think it'll
44:58
get off the ground in the first place. A daft question, perhaps, David, but I don't see why
45:03
we couldn't do a proper national inquiry? I mean, why can we not call witnesses? Why can we not have
45:09
full disclosure, full openness about what went on and have some kind of really senior, highly
45:15
regarded, completely neutral, not sat upon central figure at the heart of it? Why can't we do this
45:22
We definitely can. It's just that it will take four, five, six, seven years to do it. And, you
45:29
You know, if I detect the mood of the country correctly, they won't stand for that
45:36
They won't. They want this wrapping up in a couple of years. Well, two of the victims have already quit this process
45:42
And also, I think, three of the victims, sorry, one's unnamed. And also, I think, the woman who has liked to be the chair
45:49
So do you do something different? No, I don't think that. I think the legal model needs to be worked out, first of all
46:00
so that we're not reliant on StatStream inquiry doing all the low-level stuff
46:09
That's back to the drawing board, isn't it? It is a bit
46:12
Yeah, it is a bit. But we shouldn't be starting from here, as they say. We should have been starting in January
46:18
um uh what really needs to happen is that um someone like a a retired high court judge or a
46:27
retired judge who is you know who is guaranteed to be independent should be doing this you'll
46:34
remember that there was a lot of um discussion about the grenfell inquiry and who should share
46:40
it. And then what happened was that Mr. Justice Moore Bick came in and he held a series of open
46:49
meetings where the public, those interested, could come and ask him questions. He confronted them
46:55
and answered their questions. That kind of fronting up is what we need in this case as well
47:01
in your view. To build confidence, yes. Given that you represent so many of the victims
47:06
Can you tell us a little bit about the mood among them at the moment as they watch this process unraveling
47:14
They deserve respect. They have the ones that have spoken about this
47:22
Let's face it. There are thousands that have not dared mention a word of this and live in the shadows
47:30
So the ones that have spoken deserve massive respect for speaking out in the first place
47:37
Only a very few have decided that they can speak to lawyers or the press or even sit on this panel
47:46
So they deserve massive respect and they need to be listened to. David Greenwood, thank you very much indeed for that
47:53
Prince Andrew's days in his Royal Lodge home could be numbered after it was discovered that the disgraced royal
47:59
has been living in the king's property virtually for free. We will discuss that next by the time now, 6.48
48:06
Coming up at 7 on LBC, Ian Dale. It's not being anti-pensioner to say the triple lock has to go
48:12
but politicians are so cowardly that the only way they'll do it is if there's an economic crash
48:17
Pathetic, isn't it? Ian Dale on LBC. So, what's on your to-do list today
48:25
Why don't you check if you're eligible for pension credit? It tops up your pension income and also opens up help with heating bills
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council tax and more. Search pension credit on gov.uk or call 0800 99 1234
48:44
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Train to Chichester, flasks filled, snacks packed, all ready for Maisie's first stargazing adventure
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Come on Maisie, follow everyone up to the top of that hill. Oh look, that one's the plough
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Shooting star, wow! Made it, last train back and feeling cosmic. And it seems we have an astronaut in the making
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Download the Southern Railway app to book kids tickets for £2 on off-peak journeys
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Southern Railway, where every stop is a story. Leading Britain's conversation, LBC, tonight with Andrew Marr
49:59
6.50. Prince Andrew has been living virtually rent-free in Royal Lodge, which is part of the king's huge property empire
50:07
Will he be turfed out? And more to the point, just how much damage is this ghastly saga
50:13
doing to the British monarchy itself? Let's talk now to Tina Brown, former editor of Vanity Fair
50:18
and the best-selling author of The Palace Papers and also the weekly substack Fresh Hell
50:24
Speaking of which, Tina, where does this end? Do you think it ends with him actually having the title Prince removed as well
50:32
I don't think they can take Prince away because, you know, he's a prince of the blood and I think he gets to keep that
50:37
I actually do think this is probably never going to stop until they get him out of Royal Lodge
50:42
You know, he has got to be, I mean, in the old days
50:47
he would have been sent to the Tower of London. But in lieu of that, I think there's plenty of nice, rustic, charming cottages on the Balmoral Estate
50:55
I think he has to be out of the UK in Scotland. Well, speaking as a Scot, you know, Scotland is part of the UK
51:04
But I get your point. I know. Far away from most people. Yes. Well, I'm an American now, so forgive me
51:10
But I mean, you know, or frankly, you know, banish him to a villa on a Dubai golf course
51:15
But I think he's got it. He's too close. Look, he's five miles from the future forever home of William and Kate
51:23
He's a short, you know, nay, as it were, on his horse from Windsor Castle
51:29
It's too close. I mean, Windsor is very, very close to London. And you can't. How do you hide? How do you disappear
51:35
A six foot tall, you know, 190 pound, very healthy 65 year old man
51:41
I mean, you cannot simply, you know, keep him in a box. So that's why I'm in favour of him banishing to Scotland
51:48
which the Scots have nothing. You know, they don't deserve him. But, I mean, he doesn't deserve them
51:54
But nonetheless, I think it would be better. Well, I'm sure if the king had a big enough box, he'd use it
52:00
Clearly he is doing what he can You know he trying to get the other titles away from him and acting I sure he act on Royal Lodge next But in terms of the next generation William and Kate know that
52:12
their future as the monarch and the queen consort of the UK is dependent upon public support
52:20
And Uncle Andrew is just ripping it apart. It's true. And I mean, you know, obviously
52:27
they thought first time around when he was stripped of everything by the queen, a lot of things, his honours and his military honours and so on, that, you know, he could still
52:36
attend family occasions. But as we saw with the Duchess of Kent's funeral, suddenly into the
52:42
picture, like, you know, the George Shark looms Andrew at the shoulder of William, who is staring
52:48
you know, implacably to his, you know, in the other direction, and he can't get him out of the
52:53
shot, you know, and it becomes this meme. You can't sort of get him out of it unless he's just
52:57
going to be gone, gone, gone. Now they've said they're not going to have him for Christmas at Samaritan
53:03
so he'll be eating his turkey like some kind of Ebenezer Scrooge
53:08
you know, alone at Royal Lodge. But it's not going to work
53:12
They have to get him literally out of Royal Lodge and into one of the many, many estate cottages that they have
53:20
Now, I know the Democrats in the U.S. are still looking through all the files at the moment
53:24
We've got the Jufri book today. Do you think there's a lot more to come on this in terms of embarrassing emails, embarrassing messages
53:32
The book itself, which is a harrowing read, I must say, doesn't give us anything new about Andrew
53:40
I mean, what it does do, though, which is bad for Andrew, is it reminds everybody just how depraved and terrible Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell was
53:49
And we know how close Andrew was to them. What has obviously completely sort of soiled him yet again is the release of these emails, which in which he said, you know, after telling Emily Maitlis in her interview that he cut off all, you know, communication with him after he had seen him on that last time
54:09
Turns out he didn't. You know, he actually wrote him this email saying, let's play together soon
54:15
You know, we're all in it together. Yeah. Yeah. A year later. Yes
54:18
No, he just lied. You know, it was pants on fire time on that interview
54:24
which I think is really bad because it makes you think, well, everything about that interview probably wasn't true, you know
54:30
So that was, I think, the thing that really did him in. I mean, the Jewfree book just reminds you what a disgraceful
54:37
and disgusting kind of entourage this whole was. Absolutely. Tina, you and I have seen some extraordinary royal stories in our time
54:48
going back to Diana and all of that. And again and again and again, we're told this is the beginning of the end of the British monarchy
54:57
And it's never true. Is it any truer this time? No, I mean, it's not. I mean, look, everybody has, you know, some bad seed in the family or some crazy cousin or whatever
55:08
So but I think that Andrew has to be it has to be dealt with
55:13
Let's put it that way. Before the coronation of the next monarch. You know, I think it's all very well. We understand he's Charles's brother
55:20
It's very difficult, really, for Charles to have to deal with this painful sort of family problem
55:24
But by the time we get to William's reign, it has to be dealt with
55:30
You know, it's like it's got to be cleaned up only because I think the tolerance for the idea that the monarchy can just, you know
55:38
have one rule for themselves and one for another is is really getting thin
55:42
and unfortunately, you know, they're going to have to be pure as the driven to know
55:46
and Andrew keeps reminding people of these special favours, this appalling scandal, his corruption
55:52
I mean, the man's got the worst judgement in the world. And of course, you know, Sarah Ferguson
55:57
who had just been sort of trying to rehabilitate herself, she also is once again..
56:02
It's ghastly. Tina, bless you. Thank you so much for that. Really appreciate it
56:07
Thanks. Nicolas Sarkozy, France's Conservative president, between 2007 and 2012, begins a five-year prison term in Paris today
56:16
It's for criminal conspiracy to use money from the Libyan dictator Gaddafi
56:20
to fund his electoral campaign. Let's hear now from Catherine Norris-Trent, the senior correspondent for France 24
56:27
Catherine, thanks for joining us. So Nicolas Sarkozy, a very big figure in France
56:31
and still quite a lot of supporters on the street. Yeah, that's right
56:36
And a couple of hundred supporters turned out in the 16th arrondissement of Paris this morning as Nicolas Sarkozy kind of stage managed his departure to jail
56:46
His lawyers had organized the date with the court in advance. So he knew when it was going to happen
56:52
And he walked down this affluent area of Paris with his wife, Carla Bruni, and his children and said goodbye to his supporters in front of the cameras
57:01
And then he was driven away to the prison de la santé in southern Paris, which is a pretty notorious prison
57:07
It's an old prison. Yeah, it's a very old prison. And it's the last one inside the city limits of Paris
57:14
Some notorious prisoners have been held there, such as Carlos the Jackal
57:18
And he will now be serving some time there. We don't know how much he could be let out within a month as legal proceedings continue
57:26
And he has been seen with President Macron recently. is part of this story a kind of growing argument below the surface
57:35
between the French judiciary determined to do their thing and the French political class saying
57:41
you know, he's one of ours in the end. Don't go too far. Well, that's what Nicolas Sarkozy wants to make it about
57:46
He put out a statement on social media just ahead of heading into prison
57:50
and basically said that this was, in his words, revenge and that it was motivated by hate
57:55
And he's really called into question the integrity of the French judicial system
58:00
And the fact that he was invited by President Macron to the Elyse Palace on Friday
58:05
the fact that the current Justice Minister, excuse me, of France, has said he will go and visit him in prison
58:11
is really calling into question, you know, are the politicians clubbing together and trying to blame the judicial system
58:17
which some people say is a very, very slippery slope. So you've had judges, trade unions coming forward and saying
58:23
you've got to watch out for this because let's not make this political. They're insisting that this is actually, you know, based on the rule of law
58:30
or something that Nicolas Sarkozy himself was very strict about when he was in office
58:34
Catherine Loris-Trent, admirably clear and incisive. Thank you so much. Now, if you've missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app
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or the new LBC app where you can stay up to date with all the latest news and opinion
58:47
You can put your news categories in the order you'd like them. You can pause, you can rewind live radio, and you can listen to a range of podcasts
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Download the all-new official LBC app for free from your app store now
58:58
Coming up at 10 on LBC, it's Ben Kentish. But right now, it's time for Ian Dale
59:03
Thanks, Andrew. We could commit to the triple lot. Next April, pensioners get another £470
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