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Epstein's lawyer: 'There is no list... but it wasn't suicide' | LBC
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Jul 17, 2025
Donald Trump has lashed out at his longtime supporters for believing the "Jeffrey Epstein Hoax", amid allegations the US president is 'covering up' the infamous files related to the sex trafficker who he was close with. Trump has been trying to contain a political crisis as his Republican supporters continue to criticise his administration's handling of much-hyped records in the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking investigation. The files allegedly contain the names of rich elites that associated with the infamous sex trafficker - which included Mr Trump - and those who collaborated in his crimes. The US president has come under fire in recent days for his Government’s decision not to release the files, which his administration now claims don't exist. In his latest outburst, he blasted his voters and colleagues for believing the 'radical left hoax'. As the Administration grapples with what to do next, Andrew Marr puts some questions to Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer, David Schoen, and the lawyer of the victims, Gloria Allred. Listen to the full show on the all-new LBC App: https://app.af.lbc.co.uk/btnc/thenewlbcapp #andrewmarr #jeffreyepstein #epsteinfiles #epsteincoverup #donaldtrump #pambondi #ghislainemaxwell #politics #uspolitics #lbc LBC is the home of live debate around news and current affairs in the UK. Join in the conversation and listen at https://www.lbc.co.uk/ Sign up to LBC’s weekly newsletter here: https://l-bc.co/signup
View Video Transcript
0:00
I'm talking about the Epstein files, currently ripping apart the Make America Great Again movement in the US
0:08
Jeffrey Epstein, you will recall, was the well-connected paedophile sex criminal, whose friends included Prince Andrew, Bill Clinton, and the younger Donald Trump
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He would fly other predators, as well as underage girls, on the so-called Lolita Express to his private island
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and whatever happened there was probably filmed, probably recorded. Ever since Epstein died in prison, there have been persistent rumors of a grand dossier containing the names of his sex clients
0:37
Conspiracy theorists believe lots of liberal elite names would be on it
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and they gleefully assumed it would be released once Trump became president again
0:46
But Trump himself no longer seems keen. But I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody
0:54
It's pretty boring stuff. It's sordid, but it's boring. and I don't understand why it keeps going
1:01
I think really only pretty bad people, including fake news, want to keep something like that going
1:08
But credible information, let them give it. Anything that's credible, I would say let them have it
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Extraordinary. Let's talk now to Jeffrey Epstein's former attorney, David Schoen. Did he think there was ever a list
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I don't believe there was and I certainly don't believe any blackmail theory. He had nothing like that in mind
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And had he had a list, I would assert that it would have been in his best interest at the time when he faced an indictment to have used anyone and everyone on that list to his advantage
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And he didn't, and therefore he probably didn't have the information. But right across America, indeed across a lot of the world, many people are convinced that such a list exists, that it's sitting in front of the Attorney General, Pam Bondi
1:51
Why do you think there is such a desire to believe in the list
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Well, I think there are a couple of things that work. First of all, I think there's pure, you know, the tantalizing, purient interest in such a list if it were to exist and in Jeffrey Epstein's lifestyle and so on
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But secondly, I think that, you know, a number of people made a major issue in political campaign of finally exposing all of the documents in this list without really knowing what they were talking about
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It's ironic that all of the criticism now is coming to the Trump administration, when certainly the Biden administration would have had all of the same files
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And that leads to another point, by the way. You can be sure in this day and age that if there had been such a list
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and other information people think exists out there, it would have been leaked long ago
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It would have passed through many hands, including state and local and federal law enforcement officials
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and others who could have profited off of any such list. Do you think there was a kind of desire to believe in a conspiracy of the liberal elite
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all misbehaving in gross ways that ordinary folks couldn't ever think about
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I think that's true. And they had the germ of a reason for it, given that there were many wealthy and famous people
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who hung around Jeffrey Epstein, went on trips with him, went on his plane with him, visited with him, and so on
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And they loved that relationship. But once he was indicted, they all never knew anything about him and they cut their ties
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and so on, which was, I thought, a bit unseemly. But I understand the way politics and human nature works, I suppose
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Well, we've all seen the films of the younger Donald Trump with Jeffrey Epstein at parties and so forth
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The president is visibly really quite irritated by this story going on and on
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He said only very bad people are interested in it. It's boring. It's sordid
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Why do you think he's so annoyed? I think he's annoyed for a number of reasons. First of all, as I made clear in a post I made on Twitter
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a while ago, Jeffrey Epstein had absolutely no kind of dirt or any kind of illegal or
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inappropriate conduct by information about Donald Trump That clear I discussed it with him in detail And he wanted those facts out there But I think he also upset because he feels that he accomplishing a great deal in his administration and there are many important issues going on Middle East issues economy tariffs and all of those things which are
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appropriate for public discussion. But everything seems to be getting sidelined now by people
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purportedly in his camp, people like Tucker Carlson, who has been a supporter, but is now
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sort of way out there conspiracy theorist, trying to put anti-Semitic views into it
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and all these Zionist conspiracies and that sort of thing. And then on the left, he sees the New
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York Times and some members of Congress really sowing the chaos for their own purpose. And they
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love to see the dissension and encourage the dissension within the ranks. Let me ask you about
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Jeffrey Epstein himself. Again, this is a widespread conspiracy theory, as you know
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that he did not kill himself in prison, but that he was murdered. What's your view
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My view always has been that he did not kill himself. I have no concrete facts to base it on
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I don't have a theory as to who killed him, and I don't subscribe to conspiracy theory
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But I base my opinion on two facts. One anecdotal, I met with him nine days before he was found dead
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He hired me on that occasion. We set up a meeting. I told him that I wanted to meet
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He had a whole battery of fine lawyers, and he wanted me to lead the team. They didn't know me
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So I said, I want to have a meeting with them and have them accept me. Or if they reject me, I would put together my own team, which I already had done
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So that meeting was to be upcoming. Secondly, during the course of that week, I understand from local lawyers there
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that he was giving instructions based on the strategy we had discussed right up until the day before he died
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But maybe most importantly, Michael Bodden, who I consider to be the topmost forensic pathologist in the world
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examined him with the assistant medical examiner for the city of New York a few days after his death, that Monday, after the Saturday when he died
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He said that, first of all, the assistant medical examiner could not come to any conclusion
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then four days later, change that to suicide without any additional evidence. But more importantly, Michael Bodden himself has done tens of thousands of autopsies
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said that he has never in his career seen injuries like this consistent with a suicide
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So that's what I base mine on. And calls I've had from other inmates saying it was impossible in that cell
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It didn't make sense and that sort of thing. But nobody knows, nobody really will know, I think
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A very murky story. What was his frame of mind? What was he like the last time you spoke to him
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Well, he was fine. During the course of our visit, we had about a five-hour visit
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that's nine days before he died, a prison psychologist or psychiatrist visited him
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because there was this rumor that two weeks earlier he had tried to commit suicide. It wasn't that at all
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He had a very rough cellmate who did something, but he didn't want to discuss it any further
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because he was afraid in there. But his frame of mind in going forward with the case
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was terrific. We were prepared to fight the case. We mapped out a strategy, and he was very excited
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about that and told everyone so. In fact, I got calls from some of the local lawyers
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but the previous lawyers had go to see him, and they were very excited also, and they talked about
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his excitement about going forward and the instructions he was giving them and so on
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So that was his frame of mind. He hated it in there. It was filthy. He was put in with people
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he had nothing in common with, obviously, and he was concerned about extortion threats and that
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sort of thing. And since I'm talking to you from London, I have to ask, did he talk at all about
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Ghislaine Maxwell? No. Never mentioned that. A very, very hard up question, perhaps, because he is
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seen as this kind of demonic figure now. How did you find him as a human being? I found him, I think
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the same way that many of the people who enjoyed his company found him. He was engaging. He was
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focused. He was a very bright guy. I never saw this so-called monstrous side that people describe
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He was a very engaging and clever sort of fellow, I thought, and I didn't see anything unseemly
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And while I don go into any details of what we discussed I have very strong reason to believe that there was a lack of credibility for many of the accusations being made against him I just give you one example One of the people who was behind the criminal case I saw after Epstein died the lawyer giving press conferences
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that all the client wanted was a day in court. I have a letter that that lawyer wrote
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before Jeffrey Epstein died saying, I'm going to the press with this information
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just laying out information that was in the public domain. Epstein said he never heard of any such person
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And the letter said, for $25 million, my client will go away in effect
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Otherwise, we're going to the media. That's not someone who just wanted their day in court
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And so every client I've ever had is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty
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And Jeffrey Epstein was never brought to trial on these charges. Well, fascinating to talk to you, Mr. Schoen
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Thank you so much for talking to LBC. Thank you very much. Well, Gloria Allred, the American attorney who's represented more than 20 of Jeffrey Epstein's victims
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was listening to that interview with David Schoen. And I'm guessing, Gloria, you won't necessarily agree with what he had to say
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a very engaging and pleasant kind of guy. Well, obviously, he wouldn't have been there
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when Jeffrey Epstein was sexually abusing underage girls and trafficking them, sexually trafficking them to others
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or for his own purposes. So I do think that I would respectfully disagree with him
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and there is a lot of evidence, I'm sure, of sex trafficking
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Now, this is the reason I'm saying this, because he was being prosecuted, that is Epstein
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by the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York
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And that arrest, that indictment of Jeffrey Epstein in New York would not have taken place unless the United States attorney had fully reviewed any investigation
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that the FBI had done of Mr. Epstein and and also that the United States attorney would have
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concluded that it was likely that he, Mr. Epstein, would be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
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Because no U.S. attorney, for that matter, no state attorney or county attorney
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will proceed with a high-profile criminal case unless they feel there's a high likelihood that the jury
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that there's enough evidence that the jury would find guilty on a reasonable doubt
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Of course, they won't know that until a jury is chosen and returns a verdict
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But I'm saying that's my experience with prosecutors. So there is a there there, but we don't know what a jury would have concluded
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had Epstein lived to the point that a jury would have been able to deliver a verdict
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And, Gloria, what's your own view about this very still widespreadly held belief that there is a long list of the private sex clients that's sitting perhaps on Pam Bondi, the attorney general's desk, perhaps somewhere else, and that there's a conspiracy of silence
11:21
Powerful people just don't want it released into the public domain. well uh i don't know whether there's a list uh or no list but something in jeffrey epstein's mind
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in which he knew who he associated with and who might like to have the benefit of uh being you
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know involved sexually with underage girls whether underage or adult women were being
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used at bait as bait or as part of a transaction that mr epstein had with very wealthy in some cases high profile men
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I guess we would have to wait to see. But I definitely am in favor of transparency
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And I said last night on CNN, and I still hold this belief, that the files of the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, which, of course, would be under the Justice Department, the total file, which was being used to prosecute him, should be made public
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not pick through to decide what is credible and what is not credible
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but for the public, in the court of public opinion, to come to whatever conclusions they are going to come to based on evidence in the file
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And this is a major moment for this administration. uh this morning i know that uh the president was attacking some of his own supporters
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in the maga movement calling them weaklings uh and other names for them because obviously he
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would like to discuss other topics but we'll have to wait to see uh you know meanwhile the
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You know, victims, many of them are being used, I would say, as political football, which is very unfair to victims
13:35
I do think the files should be released. But the victims must be protected
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Their names should be redacted. Their identity should not be disclosed. And definitely any images, sexual images that Mr. Epstein might have taken and retained, which might or might not be used to blackmail either some of the men or the victims or both, should never be revealed to the public
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Yeah, of course. And Gloria, just on that subject, reflect a little bit on the enormous damage done to the victims, because their voices are mostly not out there. You will know them. You will have spoken to them. Many years have passed now, but presumably these are people whose lives have been ruined by this very engaging and pleasant man
14:22
Well, for many of them, you know, this whole public discussion is now traumatizing and triggering to them to have to relive it
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And they've had their hopes, Dash, to learn the truth many times
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So, for example, when Epstein was arrested in Florida and, you know, and was a subject of prosecution, ultimately entered a plea and got a really light sentence
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they had hopes that he'd be prosecuted and a lot of truth would come out
14:57
It didn't happen. The United States attorney pushed it down to the state
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and Epstein got a very light sentence. Now, and I'm going to mention Ms. Maxwell
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which I know you're interested in because you spoke to Epstein's attorney about it
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uh then it was then mr uh mr epstein was later prosecuted in new york arrested and again many
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of the victims thought okay this time through the prosecution we will learn everything we need to
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know it didn't happen because he was either the victim of homicide or or committed suicide
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which do you think it was Gloria sorry very briefly we're out of time really
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I don't feel that I have enough evidence to know one way or another
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and that's why I mention it Andrew but now he's not coming
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out and now there's an opportunity to have it come out Gloria Allred thank you very very much for talking to LBC
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