Up next in 10
Matt Frei is joined by human rights campaigner Steve Crawshaw to discuss the effectiveness of an ICC arrest warrant, as calls for Russian authorities to be punished for war crimes grows ever stronger.
In March of 2023, following an investigation of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Putin.
At the time, US President Joe Biden responded to the move saying Putin had "clearly committed war crimes" and the warrant, although not recognised in the US, was "justified" and made "a very strong point".
In November of last year, the ICC also issued an arrest warrant for Netanyahu over war crimes committed in Gaza.
In response to this, in February of this year, Donald Trump signed an executive order to sanction the ICC.
The order included financial and visa sanctions on unnamed individuals and their family members who assist in ICC investigations of US citizens or allies.
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0:00
So when we're talking about how Donald Trump and his administration are trying to change the world
0:04
and we talked about this early on with Lindsay Hilsom, there is this sort of feeling that we're
0:07
going from a rules-based order, you know, roughly based on values or what, you know, Joe Biden used
0:12
to call, you know, the battle between democracy and autocracy, to something that is much more
0:18
about spheres of influence. It's more hemispheric. It's about geography and about sort of coherent
0:23
parts of the world and how they are governed by different strongmen, whether it's Xi Jinping in
0:28
Asia or Donald Trump and the Americas. And then I guess Europe is up for grabs between
0:32
the rather messy, you know, Survivors Club of the EU and then, of course, Russia under Putin
0:38
But at the sharp end of the values-based order is, of course, international law and how it applies
0:46
how bad people can be brought to justice in a place like The Hague, you know, under the ICC
0:52
Most famously, that body issued an arrest warrant for the Israeli Prime Minister
0:57
Benjamin Netanyahu. That was after they'd issued one for Vladimir Putin. And the question always is
1:03
will these people ever face trial? Will they ever be in the dock? It seems so unlikely at the moment
1:07
But then they said the same thing about Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia, who ended up on trial
1:12
about Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader, who ended up on trial
1:16
They all got their convictions. So what, you know, how is, what is happening to that particular part
1:22
of the rules-based order? Steve Korshaw is a journalist, an author, and a former current human rights campaigner
1:28
and the author of a fabulous book called Prosecuting the Powerful, War Crimes and the Battle for Justice
1:33
And he's sitting right opposite me in the studio. Steve, good to see you again. Thanks for coming in
1:37
Very nice to be here. Thank you. So let's start with the origins of international justice
1:41
in The Hague and in Geneva. Tell us about briefly, you know, how that was founded
1:47
and about the actual, rather ironically, the American and Russian involvement in that
1:51
This story is so full of ironies from the beginning. So both of those things, Geneva and The Hague, are both now important
1:58
The reason why Geneva, we take it for granted, Geneva Conventions, International Red Cross is there
2:02
The only reason is because, or the fundamental reason is because of quite random circumstances
2:07
A young businessman from Switzerland who had problems with his business that was going on in Algeria
2:14
ran to chase down the French emperor, Napoleon III, who was fighting battles
2:19
He thought he was going to get his irrigation sorted out. quite random things and was so horrified
2:25
by what he saw of the way that battles were being fought in Northern Ireland that that led to the creation of the Red Cross and then Geneva became the centre of all of those So all of that flowed from the 19th century and then as you mentioned earlier from the
2:40
end of the Second World War, the Geneva Conventions. The Hague, which we think of as the, and it describes itself as the city of international
2:48
peace and justice, again, that had no reason to be there. Why would the Dutch capital be something special
2:53
as you rightly say it was the Russians the Russian Tsar Nicholas II
2:58
who they said we need to get together war is a very nasty thing
3:01
and there were already possible chemical weapons and other things that were there at the end of the 19th century
3:08
beginning of the 20th and they thought well we shouldn't have it in Berlin or Paris or London
3:13
St. Petersburg, the Great Paris let's do it in the neutral The Hague
3:16
so it was the Russians who brought that there the Hague Convention happened in
3:21
That was a meeting in 1899. And that, if you like, set the pattern for, yes, war is a bad thing in itself
3:30
But within that sense of horror, we do need to introduce some rules
3:36
And there was a kind of sense of optimism then, which, of course, the First World War paid to
3:41
But an optimism that things might go in a better direction. And then the Second World War, you know, doubled down on putting paid to
3:47
Double down, of course. But then at the end of that, we had the Tokyo trials. We had the Nuremberg tribunals and suddenly there seemed to be this light of international justice. Fast forward to today. You know, on one hand, we've got these international arrest warrants. On the other hand, against people like Netanyahu and Putin, on the other hand, we've got, you know, the Trump administration and others saying, hang on a minute, that's overstepping the boundaries or the lines of the tribunal
4:12
It is extraordinary. It's an absolutely existential moment, really, that we've got to know. So as you say, after 1945, for half a century, almost nothing happened. And then the Balkan Wars, which you and I both covered, where it seemed that Slobodan Milosevic, the then Serbian leader, would never face trial, as you said. And he told me himself, he said, oh, no, I am for peace. I asked him about a criminal tribunal. He looked quite startled. And I didn't expect it to happen. It happened, as you say, and that was important
4:38
The International Criminal Court began in 2002, but it was actually probably didn't
4:44
achieve that much. It's been existent for more than 20 years now
4:48
And in the last couple of years, we've seen those extraordinary things really unthinkable before
4:53
First the arrest warrant for the president of a country which is a permanent member of the Security Council Vladimir Putin you know really in other words one of the five most powerful countries in the world And then as you also mentioned Benjamin Netanyahu from Israel and others
5:08
And of course, Hamas leaders were also indicted for their terrible crimes. So on the one hand, you have the court moving forward
5:14
And on the other hand, you have Trump coming in, who, of course, loathes justice in every form
5:21
He loathes it for himself. He loathes it for his supporters. And he definitely loathes it for others
5:25
So I think that European governments, and that means both the European Union and Britain, whose voice is obviously stronger on these things now, on Ukraine, for example, an important voice from London, from Britain
5:36
I think it's going to be incredibly important to say, Donald, this doesn't work
5:42
You can't try and destroy the court, which is what he's trying to do. He's already introduced some sanctions
5:47
They're not signatories, of course, are they, to the ICC? They are not. So the America has always been at the side, but in recent years, not only under Biden and Obama, but also even under George W. Bush, who kind of sort of hated the court, but learned to live with it
6:00
And Obama and Biden, their administrations collaborated very closely, especially, of course, on Ukraine
6:05
Like, yes, we agree with you on Ukraine. So they were very supportive. But now it's like, well, we're really happy if the people we're against are being indicted, arrest warrants being issued and attempts to bring them to justice, but not if our friends are happening
6:19
And that, of course, that pulls apart the very idea that justice is apart
6:23
So I think it's really important. I was in Israel last year and the bravest and most brilliant Israelis I was talking, never mind the Palestinians, also in the West Bank, but also Israelis there who really care about justice, care about their peace and stability for the future
6:39
They were so eager that the International Criminal Court arrest warrant should go forward and a sense of accountability for the future
6:47
Because if that sense of accountability doesn't exist, if it's undermined by a country that until now has been thought of, you know, willy nilly with warts and all as a force for, you know, for principle behavior around the world
7:00
And I know there'll be lots of people shouting me saying, hang on a minute, what about Iraq? What about Vietnam? I get all that
7:05
Yeah. But on the whole, at the end of the day, you push the Americans up against the wall
7:08
They are for, you know, accountability, rule of law, et cetera, et cetera. Is that now gone
7:13
No it not gone but it very imperiled And I think this is where it really interesting to see where the conversation is As we been discussing there lots of like oh rest where does that actually go anywhere Well Milosevic was one historical example but much more recently just in the past few weeks we seen Rodrigo Duterte There he was The former president of the Philippines Former president of the Philippines He was so confident that nothing was happening to him
7:37
that he flew back into his own country, flew back to Manila Airport
7:41
and that was where they put the handcuffs in and shoved him off to the Hague. So this is somebody who has in recent years
7:48
been the president and his own government has worked with international police to do that
7:54
Now, it's difficult to see the circumstances at this very moment where that would happen with either a Netanyahu or a Putin
8:01
But we absolutely can't close that off. It does begin to get closed off if America literally manages to destroy the court through its various sanctions
8:10
And do you think that's what they want to do, actually destroy it? Yes. So in effect, it does
8:14
And I think Trump doesn't really hide this. At the moment, he's very targeted on how dare you go for Netanyahu
8:21
And the sanctions are fairly personal against Karim Kham, the chief prosecutor
8:25
but it also affects financial dealings. Of course, you know, governments which are giving money to the court
8:32
they can also be punished in some way. So there are suggestions from the court itself and from others
8:37
that European countries need to be much more robust in saying there will be consequences to America if you try and do this
8:45
Just briefly, Karim Khan, the head of the court, I mean, he's been accused of various things
8:50
Tell us about that and how serious is that? So he has indeed been accused and neither you nor I know nor anyone else outside knows on some sexual harassment charges and sorry, not charges, but allegations
9:02
And those obviously raised question marks were used significantly to call into question the requested arrest warrants
9:10
And all of that is still in protest. We don't know where any of that will go to. But fundamentally, this is not just about Karim Khan
9:16
He had advisors, including a former senior Israeli ambassador who was himself the former president of the Yugoslavia War Crimes Tribunal
9:23
It was interrogated by a panel of independent judges. They're trying to make it about him, aren't they? The enemies of the court are trying to make it about him
9:28
Actually, it was looked at for six months by the judges. So I think it's very, very important
9:33
Ukraine is so important. Greenland, all these other themes are important. But I think European governments need to realize that the court, that they, including Britain, but pretty much all the European governments, were so strongly in favor of the International Criminal Court
9:45
they need to stand up for it because it's bad for everybody if it's weakened or let alone if it goes
9:50
and as you said there's a crucial juncture and it could be an extinction event for the court
9:54
if we don't watch out and protect it Steve Corshaw, author of Prosecuting the Powerful
9:58
War Crimes and the Battle for Justice thank you very much for coming into the studio
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