​Chopper's Political Podcast Episode 81 - Suella Braverman - WATCH IN FULL

Coming up on Chopper's Political Podcast

There's more chance of me joining Zach Polanski's Green Party. Are you kidding me

Than the Conservative Party quilling out of the USHR. They've got the Wilson report. Welcome back to Chopper's Political Podcast

where I bring you the best guest gossip, news and stories from our studios at GB News in the heart of Westminster

My name is Christopher Hope and I'm GB News' political editor. I've tried to play a game in this podcast

because I think life is just too boring. We're expecting Reform UK next week to set out

who is their shadow cabinet, their shadow government in waiting, if you like

I'm going to get my wonderful GB News colleagues, Tom Harwood, our deputy political editor

and Catherine Forster, our chief political correspondent, to work out who might get those top jobs

and perhaps give them a prize if they're right. But before I do that, I'm going to bring back an old friend of the podcast

Suyla Braveman. When I last spoke to her on the podcast, she was a Conservative, and now she's a Reform UK MP

I think, therefore, she's got some questions to answer because when she last appeared, she wasn't entirely frank

about her plans for her political future. With me now is Suyla Braveman, the former Conservative Home Secretary

the most recent recruit to, I think, well, the most recent recruit, aren't you

Yes. to Reform UK. Welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here

But before we start, I want to play you a clip. What's next for you? There's talk about reform

Would you ever join Reform? I'm not going to defect to Reform, no

And I hope I'm not driven out to Reform by my colleagues

One last question. Great to see you. And it's an easy one, really. Are you going to join Reform UK? You're laughing

Everyone keeps asking me this question. Why is it? Listen, I've been a Conservative Party member

I know that. I'm 45 now. And I have been, I think, I think I was 15 when I joined

What does that make it? 30 years that I've been a member. My mum's a member

My dad's a member. My family's a member. Listen, I am not

No. Listen, I've been just elected as a Conservative Party MP by the Great People of Fair and Waterloo

It's a great honour. It's a great honour to be in Parliament. I'll be voting against Keir Starmer's Brexit betrayal today

with my Conservative colleagues in the lobby with wearing the blue rosette

Now, swell of brave men. There we have it. There's two interviews with you over the past couple of years

for Chopper's political podcast. Now, this isn't a church. You know, you don't have to tell the truth all the time

But to me, you know, what do you think about leaving all those times

you said you weren't going to leave? Well, technically, I was right. I wasn't defecting at those times

I only defected on the 21st of January. you know I wasn't defecting up until the 20th of January and you said unless forced out in the

answer the first one I think that was that was probably the that probably got to the nub of what happened here with you defecting to the to reform actually you know listen um there was a lot of

speculation for over a year about this issue and um if I'm honest I was grappling with it internally

that can't be a public issue for comment but it is I have been very

torn about the matter particularly about relationships actually local people with whom I've

worked for over a decade but actually the final straw came in those last few days

before my defection and the die was cast it became very clear what the chief whip thought of people like Robert Jenrick and myself

that she wanted us out of the party. And Andrew Rosendale also. Andrew Rosendale. It became very clear that I was on the receiving end of unprovoked hostile briefing from the leader's office

And then, of course, you know, what they really thought was laid bare for the world to see

when I did finally defect. and they responded with a very vicious, I should say false, smear saying I was suffering with mental health problems

which is not true. And in many ways, that response said it all

That's what I've been really dealing with in the Conservative Party for two years

Very personal attacks on you there. Vicious, personal, unwarranted and false. And, you know, in fact, that was more powerful than any speech I could give about how toxic the party's become and actually how nasty it's become

And so at a certain point, you've got to draw a line and say, this is not about me, really

It's actually not healthy for the country. No, and you didn't leave, though, for personal taxes for political reasons, wasn't it

It was choices being made. You saw clarity with Reform UK. Exactly. I came over a period of time, and this was gradual, to a point where I no longer believed in the Conservative Party. I no longer trusted what the Conservative Party was saying. And I didn't feel proud of the Conservative Party. All of that's pretty important if you're going to be a politician

and the only party that I trust is reform. They have credibility

Nigel Farage has stood the test of time. Despite the backlash, despite the vilification

he has come back time and time again to speak for the British people. That takes a certain and exceptional kind of courage

which I have faith in. So we'll come to that in a second, but you joined the party aged 15

31 years later or so maybe. I mean, you're leaving it. That's a big moment

I mean, and you talked there, didn't you? And rightly, I think about the members in Fairham and the local activists

That is always the hardest, the hardest link to break, I think

Yes, I think it was actually. And that was the main reason why I did stay so long, actually, because I'd lost faith with the National Party earlier

yeah I mean listen I think it's it is sad ultimately I mean no ill will to those who

choose to stay within the Conservative Party everyone's really in politics ultimately for

the same goal which is to try and help the country and they're doing that in different ways

but it is it's sad this is the great party of Churchill and of Thatcher it has yeah it is dying

it's dying the feedback from them I mean anger disappointment have some come with you no

I've been very heartened by the response from local supporters. Some of them have joined reform

How many? How many come across? I don't know the exact numbers, but a really encouraging number. I mean, there are hundreds

of supporters locally for reform anyway, very large, very professional setup. And those who

have chosen to stay have largely said, we're really sad. We understand. And I just hope we

can stay friends. So actually there's not been this kind of you know, a vicious

response. No, but there was from the leadership as we saw. Have they apologised

I think they withdrew the statement about the wrong one about your awful

slur on your mental health in the right light. That's withdrawn by them. They haven't actually

apologised to me directly. No, I'm so sorry. The leader has said she's apologised, but

no one has apologised. No letter to you or email or text No of course they won do that You say of course they wouldn I expect it I mean in normal life people who aren politicians would expect an apology There been no apology directly to me despite their saying there been an apology

And that is what the Conservative Party is today. Have you come across them in the House of Commons and said, what's that about then

No, no, no, I'm not going to waste my time anymore. This is politics. You're a different breed to most people, I've got to say, because I would expect an apology

It says more about them than it does about me. No legal action against them, because it is a slur, by the way

Well, it's false. It's false. And you know what actually upset me? This is all very petty in a way. It's not about the big political issues

No, it's not. It's a podcast. But what did upset me about it was I can brush it off. I'm used to the attacks. It actually upset my family

And the first day it happened, I thought, oh, well, it's just the Conservative Party being the Conservative Party. I'm used to it

obviously everyone knows it's a stupid false attack the next day I spoke to my um my mum and

my dad actually my mother-in-law and they they were really upset they came to me and they said

oh god you know Swala we were in the cafe yesterday talking to our friends and our friends have thought

that you have had mental health issues people have believed it and so it upset my parents because it's

not true and it's um it i don't know why you put up with it i don't know why you don't demand it is

what it is i know we'll move on i don't want to go dwell on it but um parties are relevant and at the end of the day just very few people are listening to the conservative how how is the

new party you joined different to the tories and the old thing with the conservatives is it does

have decades of centuries over a century of just running stuff being in power or not in power waiting

to be in power in opposition you're starting you're in a startup now and i'm in a startup at

I left the Telegraph after 150 years. So I know what a startup's like

It changes week to week, day to day. And then you look back over a few months and go

blimey, we've changed quite a lot since we first started out. Is it like that, a startup? I think it's probably moved from startup to scale up, actually

So it's very impressive internally. They've got a very well-kitted out headquarters

There is a lot of professionalism. A lot of people. There's a lot of people and talent being drawn towards the organisation at local and national level

There's a real sense of team. And actually, at the end of the day, direction

There's direction, there's conviction and there's life and energy. And there's people who are really passionate ultimately about saving this country because they love this country

And you can feel that at the rallies. We were just at a rally on Monday in Birmingham with, I think, 3,000 people

and people from all walks of life, all age groups, all parts of the country

really giving up their Monday afternoon to come and be part of a movement

which is on its way to... And all parts of the political spectrum? Or are they mainly from the right

There's a lot of disaffected conservatives who've been on that same journey as myself

But there are also people from Labour heartlands. But what I find striking is the largest group of people I meet

are those who have not had a political allegiance and indeed have not voted before

I'm really struck by that. The number of people who tell me, Suella, you know, I've never had confidence in the system

I've never bothered to vote, but I'm voting for reform and Farage

because they're the last chance for our country. And we last heard that at the 2016 Brexit referendum, didn't we

Yes. And it was those people who swung it, the ones who didn't vote, weren't picked up by polling

They're the ones, I think, who won it for the Brexit vote

then and can can Nigel Farah do a huge amount of pressure on on you and your band of eight or seven

other colleagues well this what's happening is the the force and the the effect of reform is it's

it's awakening it's awakening the the what's been dormant thus far uh spirit of the the British uh

the British Patriot right and that's a very powerful force that if millions of people do

tap into that and join reform and support reform we can we can say that it is i feel finally that i

have some hope by joining reform that there you know i felt very you're smiling a lot for viewers

or listeners of the state of the country we are broken you know our economy is on its knees i've

lost count of the number of small businesses that are going under young people are not getting jobs

our policing has uh you know no there's no confidence in our policing people don't feel

safe people are leaving the country yeah for the first time in many many years i feel finally feel

that there is some hope for our country and that is because of reform is your party left all right

we're not quite on the issue of the benefit cap i mean you voted didn't you by mistake for the

wrong way around to lift the benefits cap with robert jenrich what happened there it felt a bit

disorder i mean other mps loved piling discomfort on you for doing that of course you're being very

gentlemanly about it. It was my mistake. You know, got into the Robin Lobby

and shouldn't have been there. It does actually happen. There are about, you know

600 MPs milling around when that division, but you know what it's like. A lot of effects on you though

The division bell rings and everyone's hot-footing it to this lobby and trying to figure out where to go

I'm actually amazed I haven't made that mistake in 11 years of thousands or hundreds of votes

Well, it's easy when there's a bigger party and you need to, with just eight of you, not sure where you might be going

Well, it's a great lesson that as a smaller party, actually voting

you need to be a bit more vigilant. And the system is freighted against small parties

Nigel Farage can't get so cross about it because they don't really know what's going on half the time

Usual channels don't work at that level. The two big parties, they sort of help each other out

what to do next. They sort of do a dance on policy, don't they, where the smaller parties are left to find their own way

Yeah, the procedure within Parliament lends itself very well to the official opposition

Correct. And they are given platforms and they are given more of an opportunity

that is harder for the smaller parties. But again, this is what is exceptional about what reform has achieved

They're the leading party in the country right now, despite the system being against them

That's remarkable. There's a disconnect between the scales of support. I think there must be 250 polls they've led, I imagine

since April, March last year, compared to where they are in the House of Commons

And it does frustrate Farage. He is now back. And for all of you two, of course it is

But again, I say, you know, the modern media, the modern world, the way people get their politics today, it's no longer unfortunately watching PMQs or what's happening in the chamber

It is through GB News, Google's channel. Thank you for saying that. It is through podcasts. It's through the modern media

And I think, again, that's where the innovation, you really see that alive and well within the Reform Party because they're embracing that

They're not resisting. And this is just back on the policy pitch, which reform will make. Where will you be on the left and right

For example, Nigel Farrell, he's supported nationalising the Shorpe Steel plant. He wants to lift the benefits cap, I think, for Indigenous workers, he says, or worse, that effect

He's got plans for the NHS, which isn't clear. Income tax, he looked at lifting the threshold of £20,000 from £12,500

That was dropped, I think. These are quite, I would say, socialist policies too

I mean, are you happy with that? I am actually So I think there actually a case for you know if we are serious about re our country and a renaissance of our industry then I do think there is a need for state involvement

And our industries, our heavy industries have been abandoned and unable to compete against a more powerful and ascendant East

And so I do think there is a very strong case that which I support

The benefit will be more jobs. The benefit will be more growth

for our economy. And I do think that, you know, radical thinking needs to be, you know, put in

place. And, you know, I support that policy. I mean, I see it ultimately as a patriotic party

in the national interest. Yes, there are those elements which you might traditionally associate

with the left, but ultimately, this is about strong borders. It's about putting British

citizens first. It's about standing up for our veterans. It's about, you know, standing

putting the national interest first against the European Union. You know, it's the, you know

It's the only properly Eurosceptic party. Very important, very anti-globalist. We need a party, a government, a country

that's going to say we don't recognise spurious judgments of the International Court of Justice

We need a party and a government that says we're going to pull out of the European Convention on Human Rights

not one that worships at its altar, like the Conservative Party has been

and I'm afraid the Labour Party. The Tory's, of course, are pulling out of ECHR, they say, if they win the election, they say

You don't believe they will? No, I don't believe they will. There's more chance of me joining Zach Polanski's Green Party

than the Conservative Party quilling out of the USHR. They've got the Wilson Report

There's big, thick documents saying how they're going to do it. 180 pages by a lawyer three years after the event

Three years too late does not make a lot of difference. Because you've been there, you bought the Kool-Aid

If I can say so, I remember during the Brexit talks, we spoke on the phone

You were very upset about things, weren't you, then? I mean, I can go on and disclose years later

No, I've been upset about Brexit betrayal. You were really upset about the, you called it betrayal

when you were the Brexit minister. You saw what happened under Theresa May. Yes. You were one of the 28 Spartans who opposed all three iterations of her deal

29 Spartans. 29. I always include you as a Spartan. Oh, well, you don't have to. I will

28 Spartans, officially. You opposed each one, didn't you? I mean, that was brave, but you sort of thought you wanted to do

And that's about sovereignty, isn't it? And you can carry that forward with the ETHR, which all

Yes, exactly. It'll be very similar arguments that we saw on Brexit, again, with the best man for the job, Nigel Farage, to lead the charge, that we will see on ECHR withdrawal

But, you know, Brexit, and I'm free to speak now, ultimately, now I'm outside of the confines of the Conservative Party, is that, you know, Brexit was a kind of right-wing facade for the Boris years

As I said, you know, I thought that I've been a right-winger for many years

I joined, under my mother's influence, the party of Mrs Thatcher when I was very young or just after her departure

A party of sovereignty, a party of low taxation, law and order, security. And we've never really had a conservative party that's really espoused those views since the great lady herself

It's always been ashamed of those views. It's always been trying to be moved to the centre, detoxify, you know, sign up to the international movement, be a pro-Remain party

that we saw really entrenched in the party even to today. And actually Brexit, I thought the right had won

I thought the right had won with Boris and Brexit. But I was wrong because it was a facade for a very statist social democratic agenda

Record immigration, record taxation, record welfare spending, heavy state intervention during COVID

You know, I supported at the time because... But they're all choices. All those four choices were made possible by Brexit

allowing that you have a choice to allow more migrants to the door, not spend more money on supporting businesses

You can't really blame Brexit. These are choices made by elected people. It's not Brexit's fault. No, not Brexit's fault. No, not at all

What I'm saying is I thought the Conservative Party was the right wing party of the country

And I believe that very much so when Boris became prime minister and Brexit was delivered

But what we saw in reality, despite that veneer of Brexit being delivered just about, was a very statist agenda in the way I've just set out

And actually an attenuation and a minimisation of the real Brexit benefits

We didn't roll back nearly enough of the EU rules that we should have

Operation Bleach. Operation Bleach should have happened. You led in Whitehall. That was taking out the name European Union for lots of legislation to stop the reversal

Exactly. And there was such a timid, cautious attempt to extricate ourselves from the web of EU regulations and directives

And that's why we're still subject to a lot of EU law, obviously on immigration

We should have been cutting migrants. But in fact, after Brexit, we let them increase

So in many ways, you know, we delivered Brexit in name, but in substance, the Conservative Party failed to deliver proper Brexit

But did they fail? Priti Patel, I think in that chair, has said to me before that, you know, after the COVID pandemic, we needed more carers, more health workers

We had to bring them in from overseas. That led to big numbers. But that's what she said

That is a lame attempt to defend the indefensible. Post Brexit, we had the points based system in place

We had the levers. As Home Secretary, I saw how easy it would have been to cut the numbers

I actually had a very willing and supportive team of civil servants on this subject, actually

And they were very eager to use their new powers. So what stopped them? The Treasury stopped them

The Treasury and the Prime Minister and pretty much most of the Cabinet. So I was blocked by the Prime Minister, who wasn't interested in cutting migration until the very end

Boris Johnson? No, no. Rishi Sunak, sorry? Rishi Sunak. Sorry. Rishi Sunak didn't want to cut the numbers because he believed that that would negatively affect our GDP

The Treasury say that. He was supported by Jeremy Hunt in the Treasury

He was supported by the Bays, I'm afraid, Kemi Badenoch. He was supported by the Health Secretary

He was supported by the Agricultural Secretary. He was supported by all of the other departments

And I was the last man standing on this debate. And so I had no chance, of course, of delivering it

No minister, however talented they are, can act unilaterally. When you're in charge of the policy area, you're blamed because the farmers need it, the Health Secretary needs it

But that's an illusion. We have, you know, millions of Brits on out of work benefits. I don't believe that there is an obstacle to those people taking up some of these jobs

and if we rebalance our economy, we make it harder for people to claim welfare

and where they can, they are incentivised to work, then we won't need such a high level of dependency on foreign people

That'll take time to happen. Do you think, you look at Nigel Farage, has he got in him to be this tough decision maker

Because in the past, he's been someone, he's been on the sidelines criticising for all of his political life

He's never really been in charge in the way that you want to make him in charge. I mean you look him in the eye Do you think he got what it takes to be Prime Minister Oh absolutely He the only person I would trust to be Prime Minister Without any kind of record in it I mean he hasn done it before has he Well I think

That's the risk. Well, I... Well, listen, what has he done? He was really instrumental in delivering the Brexit vote

And I think that also... Part of that vote. I mean, the other part was a Gove-Cummings operation, wasn't it

Well, I mean, he's the godfather of Brexit. Yeah. I mean, he... His idea. He wouldn't even have had Brexit if it wasn't for Nigel Farage

Running things, making choices. That's the hard stuff in politics. But you know what? I mean, look at reform. Reform's gone from zero to 100, I would say

It made an exponential improvement and increase in its activity and its operations and its outcomes in a very short space of time

That's not achieved by someone who's not capable. And secondly, I actually think that where has this so-called experience got us

Keir Starmer loves to parade his experience as a former DPP, but he's proven to be probably the most incompetent leader of our country in my life

So having new eyes might be good? I actually think having that radical reforming zeal, which has not been tainted by years of experience that everyone loves to talk about, is actually a virtue

You've also had enough experts on you. Had enough of experts. Which Michael Goh said. It's not enough of, actually, the experience

It hasn't helped. Because both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party, it's actually caused more damage

I mean, anyone listening to this will be spitting out their cornflakes hearing you say that, because they think that's where that way revolution lies

Listen, it's experts who said we have to stay in the European Union

It's experts who said we have to keep migration high. It's experts who say we need to stay in the ECHR

It's experts who advocated for lockdown. And looking back, you know, we locked down far too much and we're far too, and we overspent

We overcompensated, we overreacted because we were listening to experts. Supported by both main parties, don't forget

Yeah, I was part of that as well. But with hindsight, I very much hope we don't make those same mistakes

I saw how the experts governed. It was ruled by experts. It was ruled by scientists

And the ministers were impotent in the face of technical expertise. And just finally, while I've got you, what job do you want in his team

I think we're going to see some announcements next week on this. I know this will sound baffling to you

I'm actually very happy to just do whatever is needed. So you haven't got one

It's Nigel Farage's decision. He's going to make decisions and I will respect any decision he makes

I'm just very happy to be in the team and have a role to play. Do you know what job you've got yet? No

You don't know? No. I've told them there was a meeting last week to hammer it all out

You know more than me. You will have to ask Mr Farage. But you haven't got a job yet. I do not

I do not have a job yet. It helps us calibrate this, you know, looking at reform

It's a bit of a, well, it's a ravels, wrong word, but it's a collection of people

I mean, there's a leader, deputy leader, chief whip. That's it. So it's hard to try and set them against the two main parties

You'll have to ask Mr. Farage about his decision. That is a prerogative for the boss, and rightly so

And, you know, listen, there's a lot to do. There's a lot to do, and I'm up for the challenge

to help in any way and roll my sleeves up. Just happy to be part of the team

No second thoughts? No way, actually. No way? I should have done it earlier

Really? That's my only regret. Really? Yeah. You seem happier than when we last met

Perhaps you're telling the truth. Truth sets you free, possibly. I can speak freely

But as I say, it comes down to this. It comes down to the fact that for the first time in many years

I finally feel there is a way out of the crisis that Britain faces and there is some hope

Well, from me, Christopher Hope, thank you for joining us today on Chopper's Political Podcast

Thank you, Sola Brabman. Thank you. Hello, I'm Bev Turner. Now, it can feel like the money in our bank accounts at the moment does not keep up with the cost of living

And maybe there's a solution. I'm here today with the CEO of Tally Money, Cameron Parry

Cameron, what is Tally Money? Well, Bev, with Tally Money, you get a current account and a debit card

But instead of pounds, you use milligrams of gold as your everyday money

So why gold? Gold traditionally is a great store of value. It has, on average, gone up at over 11% per annum for the last 25 years against the pound

It's tripled in value in the last decade. And in the last two years alone, it's increased by 50% against the pound

Banks' savings products just can't compete with that level of growth. But this isn't just about gold

This is about a currency that you guys have created at Tally Money

Explain it to me as though I'm an idiot. So, look, people need to be able to hold their earnings and build their savings

in a money that retains its value and remains in their legal control

and remains theirs to access away from government control. Great. You had me at not exposed to government control

You should feel safe and happy with your money. You should have peace of mind. The more money you see in your bank balance

and that's the type of thing we're trying to deliver, and give people choice in the type of money they get to use every day

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Cameron. Thank you. Thank you, Charlotte Brabham, for that interview

Now turning to our wonderful GW News political colleagues, Catherine Forster, our Chief Political Correspondent

and Tom Harwood, our Deputy Political Editor. Welcome both to the podcast. Great to have you on

Now, I've got a challenge. Two weeks in a row. Yes. Oh, yes. We love it. I've got a challenge for you both

This is a list of the eight Reform UK MPs, and here are some jobs

Now, what I want you to do is for the next two minutes, scribbling names next to those jobs

But don't copy. Don't watch. Make sure you don't watch what Tom's doing

Otherwise, there'll be a Kenny Badenock who stands up and says, miss, miss their copy

Do you remember that? Yes, exactly. Yes, yes. Looking, looking. Yeah, she dobbed, didn't she, those copies

Well, off you go. There you are, viewers. If you don't mind, just go make a cup of tea or coffee

I'll be back in a second. And we're back. That was a very quick two minutes

Thank you for filling in your piece of paper. Now, we have got a list here of the eight reformed UK MPs and the 24 cabinet jobs

But, of course, when you're in opposition, you do create other jobs. You're not necessarily mirroring, exactly mirroring what's in the cabinet

But it's as any bit of fun and not too serious. but let's work out who is going to be

who's getting at what job when Nigel Farrow stands up probably on Tuesday and sets out what these jobs are

ok, leader of Reform UK, are we agreed on that? Catherine the leader of Reform UK

yes, we have to ask the question who would be Prime Minister? thank you, Nigel Farrow, Tom

I put Leanne, of course it's Nigel Farrow thank you what clear are we

we've got 8 MPs, what are the jobs? Okay. Deputy Prime Minister. Catherine, ladies first

I put Richard Tice. Okay. I put Robert Jenrick. That's controversial. I put Richard Tice too. Why Jenrick

There is a battle between Robert Jenrick and Richard Tice in terms of who becomes Chancellor

The consolation prize will become the Deputy Prime Minister. Now, I think it's difficult to have your formal Deputy Leader not be your Deputy Prime Minister. Yes

I mean, but here's the thing. Genric lost his leverage the day that he defected

Yes. I don't think Genric will be the Chancellor because he lost his leverage in those negotiations

Yes. I think ultimately Tice has been gunning for Chancellor for the longest time

I've had some private conversations with Tice where he suggested he's been very involved with setting budgets for local councils

Okay. He's very on top of finances and wants everyone to know it. I think Tice is gunning for Chancellor

And he also went to that meeting with the Bank of England governor. Yeah. With Farage alone

Do you remember that meeting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, that was before these big names came across in the Tory party

Catherine, you put Tice in there. I did. As I have. Because he currently

is deputy leader, isn't he? Yeah. And let's face it, he has kept the show

on the road all the time. Financially? Yes. With energy? He worked so hard

for years and years keeping reform, you know, on the road when Nigel Farage..

But he's already deputy leader, so how would that excite him? And I feel

it's still... Okay, it's an optional job, but it's still a great job

You're there in PMQs, you still get to go on foreign trips. David Lammy, who's currently the deputy PM

having been demoted, still gets to go on foreign trips. But it is a consolation prize

Tom Harwood. Because both with David Lammy now and Dominic Raab before him

in both of those instances, that was someone losing a great office of state, great office of state, four of them

PM, Chancellor, Foreign Sec, Home Sec. Both of these cases, Raab and Lammy were demoted

from foreign sec. They've got the consolation DPM prize, which is not a real job

And kind of weirdly, DPM Lammy is travelling a lot and no one quite

I mean, hang on, there's a prison crisis, mate. It's not a job that always exists. There've been lots of prime ministers

who've chosen not to have a deputy PM. But why did you put Richard Tyce for that as well

Well, I got him down as foreign secretary. So I think... And deputy PM

Yes. So I think it's two jobs. I think so I give him

because I think, yeah, I thought he might be a nice bauble to give him

I think, well, you know, being your chief diplomat of the country, it's a great job, isn't it

It's a great job, but has Richard Tice expressed any interest other than having a girlfriend who lives in Dubai

Does he actually express any interest in foreign affairs? His big things are energy and the economy

I think those are his two main focuses as an MP. You could be right. Okay, split decision there on DPM

I'm saying a foreign secretary. You're saying that hold that job on its own. You're not giving him a second role

You can change now. I'm yet to decide who foreign secretary is because I looked down this list

and frankly wasn't convinced by any of them. Hello, controversial. Chancellor of Exchequer

Now, here's the big one. This is the contentious one. Catherine. Well, I've said Robert Jenrick

simply because I know, I know, I know that apparently no promises have been made

That's nonsense, of course. Et cetera, et cetera. Who am I to doubt that

Look, I don't know, but clearly Robert Jenrick is a big beast

Maybe we'll find out on Tuesday. I could, I could, where can't be wrong? Tom, Generic's had a job in the Treasury before

He's had big jobs in Cabinet before. He's a very, very smart, very, very capable politician

But the way in which he defected made him have zero power in that negotiation

I just think Realpolitik puts Tice closer to number 11 than it puts Generic

I put Robert Generic, because I think that if you're him, he's been just as I think in the Tories

He wants, it's the biggest job that isn't prime minister. and was there a promise when he came across

I mean, we don't know. You said there was no promises. Allegedly not. We don't know that. He says there are no promises

but there were all... But why are you believing what they say, Tom Harvey? You're so naive

No, Chopper, I completely agree with you. There was a negotiation, but the moment that Kemi Bainock announced the defection

before it had actually been announced, then suddenly, what... I mean, Generic's choice was either

citizen independent or a reform. He loses all of his negotiation power

He doesn't need to be offered a job. Because if you recall, when that happened, when that statement came out

we were all in there at the same time broadly. And Nigel Farage goes, I'm going to call him this afternoon

I mean, the talks happened after it emerged he was jumping. They're worse than talks

Worse than talks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was literally that day heading up to Edinburgh to interview Kemi Badenock

And just as I put my phone to flight mode, I saw it drop

Kemi Badenock has fired Robert Jenrick. And I had to switch him off for like an hour and a bit

and then I switched to Mac and it was chaos. I was in the loo. Bedlam

I was in the loo and I thought someone had died because our producer said

where are you? It couldn't burn. You may be on TV. You'll go on TV shortly, wouldn't you

I was, I was. But it's like one of those things from the play, The House, about the 1970s

You know those MPs where the whips come and batter down the doors to the loos in Parliament dragging MPs by the scruff of their neck to make sure they vote That just GB News That just GB News Normal day in GB News Can I just say also then

that when I did the first interview with Kevin Brednacht up in Edinburgh that afternoon, and she said that line

Robert Jenrick is not my problem now. She said it to me first, but then she wheeled it out multiple times

Again and again. Because it was a great line. Yeah, it was a great line. It was a great line. Workshop

And he, yeah, I mean, how is he? a Tory MP today said to me that he's a bit

stressed, Robert Jenrick. I mean, he's not here to defend himself. He would say no, it's not stressed. I'm just saying to you what

someone said to me. I mean, there's a lot of stress coming for this party. It's all very

fine being, you know, leader, deputy leader, chief whip, Lee Anderson and no one else has jobs

That's fine until they have jobs because then you get all the kind of stuff with them, the nitty

gritty, the gritting the oyster, don't we? We've all worked for startups

right to a greater or lesser extent do you name we can name a startup you work for

oh yes of course yeah uh and and i think i think i think everyone at the company would be uh

would be willing to say in those early days uh which uh the very least katherine and i were here

for um very rocky but this is the thing in in nascent organizations that are expanding quickly

you get a lot of it's it's much more choppy and changey whereas the conservative party is literally

the oldest party in the history of the Western world. And that means that there are ways of doing things

It probably feels like a calmer ship, even though from the outside, it doesn't look like a calm ship

It'll be the inverse. Well, for example, they can give honours out. I mean, the Tory party can give a few nitres

dropped here and there, baubles, roles on committees. I mean, the official opposition has other ways

of conferring support for the Germans. All these defectors, Kruger, Jenrick, Rosendale, Braverman

they've had to move offices in the House of Commons. They used to have very nice offices and the plum posh bits

Now they're back at the sort of 11 minutes away from the House of Commons chamber. OK, so we've got the PM or the leader is Farage

The deputy leader is Tice. I think, Foreign Secretary, you're saying you're leaving that blank

Chancellor, Jenrick or Tice. Tom, Home Secretary? Sue Ella Brafman. OK. Sue Ella Brafman

And we all agree on that. Sue Ella Brafman. Do you think she wants to do the same job in opposition that she did actually for the government

I think she wants a big job. She wants a great office of state. And there's no other one that fits her

And she believes in it. What Tom said. Exactly what Tom said

Ideally, okay, so we agree on that. And that means bring back Rwanda, I imagine, if she gets into power

Or Rwanda plus, plus, plus, as someone was promising. Yes, quite. Plus Balkans then

Foreign Secretary? Catherine? I haven't allocated it to anybody yet. Unfilled. So that could be a business person

I was going to say, remember when I was somewhere down south

doing a poor clip about potholes with Mark Harper when David Cameron got out of the car

and everybody went, David Cameron? That was a moment. Nigel Farage has said that he is not going to restrict himself

to only giving jobs to a team. It could be a peer. Of all those jobs there

Foreign Secretary is one you could give to a peer, probably. And I think David Cameron is the best Foreign Secretary

this country has had, I don't know, since the coalition. he kiboshed the Chagos deal

he actually had time to go and visit other countries because he didn't have to be in the House of Commons

all the time, he didn't have a constituency to attend to I think having our

Foreign Secretary from the House of Lords is actually fantastic. He had Andrew Mitchell who was made I think

first minister or something he had a bumped up title because he answered questions in the House of Commons

That being said, the technical name for the Foreign Office is not just the Foreign Office

it's the Forum, Commonwealth and Development office. So there's money in the spend. I think reform

will remove the D, so it'll be back to being the FCO, because no

development funding to any part. I think you could split off Commonwealth

and make a beefed up junior ministerial Commonwealth position for Andrew Rossendale

His biggest interest, of course, is with the Commonwealth. That's not bad

but I like your idea of a random person like, let's say, you know, Jim Ratcliffe

Let's put a name out there. But this works perfectly, right? You have a big name in the Lords

who's the Foreign Secretary, and in the Commonwealth Rosendale, okay. And Rosendale, that's all the Commons business for them

Like that. It's the Commonwealth government. Like that, like that. Okay, good

What did you have for Foreign Secretary? I had ties, you see, didn't I? I had ties. Yeah, you did

But I like the idea of Rosendale as number two. Yeah. To a well-known, you know, that's quite a ball to chuck a donor or a supporter for the party

I mean, someone wants to give back. I mean, David Cameron, when he became Foreign Secretary, made it his mission to go and visit countries that no Foreign Secretary had visited in the last 50 years

I mean, this for British exports, for connections. But it's really important for the country and those relationships that you, when you have time to build them

I should say that I'm not suggesting that you get jobs for giving money to this party, by the way

I just thought I'd say that. No, it does tend to be. I didn't mean to say that. It's not just for reform, but it is remarkable, isn't it

How lots of donors to the Labour Party, to the Conservative Party, to lots of parties throughout history have magically ended up in the House of Lords

Yes, but I'm getting a text here from our lawyer. There was no connection to those two things

let's move on quickly housing secretary that's local government that's obviously because there are a lot of there be a lot more reform councils if the polls are right after May that job matters more and more doesn it in getting this right at a local level Housing Secretary have you filled that one in

You haven't, have you? No, no, I have actually, but more by sort of who I had left

Go on, who? I've actually given that to Lee Anderson. Ah, Tom? I'm going to go with someone who's not an MP

Yes. Someone who has been involved in politics. Yes. Simon Dudley has just announced his defection to reform

Good point. I think he was the former head of Homes England. Yeah. He used to run Windsor Castle

When did that happen? Windsor Castle, Windsor Council. He defected at the start of this week

He was a Tory. He was involved in the sort of conservative Yimby initiative

which has now been renamed to Build for Britain. Yimby means yes in my backyard

Exactly. A pro-house building campaign. He is a big name in that world who has just defected to reform

And a lot of reform people were sort of welcoming him in

everyone from Nigel Farage to Robert Jenrick, with whom he was close, and all the rest of us

I think this happened on Monday. The reason I think that is because I spent Monday

up in Birmingham for the reform run after two hours. You might have been a bit busy

because the government was still... Oh, well, I didn't know that because I was so busy trying to deal with the captain government or not

That was chaos. Yeah. But that's a really good spot, Tom. But he's a good guy and a smart guy

As one who brings policy expertise from the outside, exactly what Rafael said about it

I'm crossing out Leanne, which I wrote also, and I'm going to write in Simon Dudley. I think that was almost nailed on

because why would you defect now ahead of next Tuesday? Exactly. Right, right

You put Lee Anderson for housing too. Yeah. How funny. We're the same. You and me are on the same level

Tom's a bit weird, isn't he? I'm just off doing my own thing. No, that was good

That was good. You're out of the box. We're in the box. Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster

Go on. Danny Kruger. Danny Kruger. Yeah. I've got Kruger. I also have Danny Kruger

Right, OK. We'll disagree on that one. That's fine. Easy. We've gone back to consensus. Thank you, thank you

Foreign Secretary, I forget who you put, Tom. I put an outside person, but with the Commonwealth bit for Andrew Rossendale

Which you did too. You both agree on a P. I am unspecified, yes. I like your idea

It's better than mine. And then Rossendale, to answer in the house, and he'll love that because he loves all the Chagor stuff

We know the Home Secretary is Defence Secretary. It can be blank

Yeah, Defence, I haven't, and I think, again, why would reform go for one of their MPs

when there are half a dozen military types they are going to have someone

who has been senior in the military in that position I put Rossendale down

but I think now he's now in Foreign Office I agree with you on that

Justice Secretary unallocated we're on to these ones where I think I can't see a single MP

that is currently there getting justice it's an important role I've got an idea

Sarah Pochin former barrister yes magistrate I think magistrate sorry that's a good point

yes actually now I think she is finding her way as a politician

she is she says things and then regrets them or has done on

you know about the issue of people of colour on adverts and so forth

but she needs a bit of help I think but she would do that job wouldn't she

I think you want to build a confidence update you give her a role you don't make it

women inequalities so perhaps this is a bigger job than that. Goodness gracious. Oh my God

She can do both. Give the woman the woman in a quality. Give it to a man, Catherine

I'm going to step back and allow Catherine to beat him over the head with your book

No, but I actually hadn't seen that far. Where even is that? It's always in the..

It's not on our list. It's not on our list, but it's always a job attending cabinet

and it's usually given with a lover job. I think we've got to the end now

of the MPs who can be promoted to any job at all

oh Lee Anderson Lee Anderson well I'd given him housing but I agree that

Simon Dudley so I'm going to say Lee Anderson work and pensions that is a good choice

because I think he does like to talk about the strivers the shirkers all that kind of agenda

alarm clock Britain yes and I think that would be quite good

for him maybe but there's no business secretary no culture secretary but I mean

all of these things business secretary you really want someone from business

I mean of all the things Farage's complaint is all the time

no experience of business we know one thing for certain the majority of these cabinet positions

will not be going to MPs they'll be going to people who have been sort of significant

in industry, big outside voices that reform wants to bring into the tent

that's always been their state of day quickly others, no one cares

but a chief whip, vital to get things done currently Lee Anderson it would be a bit of a demotion if he stayed there

wouldn't it yeah but but you do need an mp and actually frankly you do need a chief whip who

knows what the policy is because robert jenner got a little bit into a bit of trouble by walking

into the wrong voting lobby last week yeah yeah and so it'll never happen before but but but is

that because the established parties have established whipping operations frankly you can be absolutely half cut as an mp and um be pushed through by your whip to go into the right

And there more of you so you follow Jack and Jill through Maybe they need someone who working on policy for reform Environment Secretary Environment Energy Secretary Anti farms energy environment

I mean, that's where Tice has talked in the past on this area. Tice has spoken in the past. I mean, the thing is, you could roll this one into Tice

Yeah, they might well combine. If he is, in my world, he's Foreign Secretary

What is Tice now? In my world, he's Chancellor, but you put that as Genrec. the Tice has actually got a job

he's free now so I make you could give him give him energy

and environment and do it in one what's your generic role Tom

my generic role where did I put him did you give him a job

I didn't give him a job that's pretty bad well I've got some Robert Genrich

the new sheriff in town you see you were so confident of your Tice moment

do you know what next chance I wrote Tice slash Jenrick because I wanted to give that

give that sort of yeah that's the tension of the tension come on this is the tension

within reform right now you're going to make him make him Wales secretary what are you going to do no no he gets a better job

than that it's got to be significant I'm going to give him business for now

I'm going to give him business that's a demotion that's a demotion you won't like that

from what backbench reform MB give him where he's come from he's the most senior

he can be leader of the house he can be I would hate that no he would hate that do you know what

he's resigning as you speak I mean he's walking out of the hardwood cabinet

He's had enough of this. But also, how many more defections before that supposedly

hard deadline? May the 7th. Come now or not at all. Do we really believe

that's going to hold? Before we go, quickly, any other jobs of any other people

in the world? Because given he wants to create a moony wedding

loads of different individuals as peers. Have a look at the spokespeople he announced

Vanessa Frake, for example, his prison's czar. Right? Could she be a justice secretary

Look at the other people that were announced over the summer, where they had sort of weekly press

conferences, they had leads on crime, they had leads on prisons, they had leads on... All of these people

I think we might see their names bubble up once more, and it got overshadowed

by Sue LeBravman's defection, but of course there were some significant veterans

at the veterans event that were announced leading some of those policies

Could they be a veteran? Can I just say, if you're They want to see serious people in charge of big budgets

Now, health is the biggest budget. We haven't even discussed health yet. And the health policy of this party is not determined

I mean, that is a real Achilles heel going through the election. Well, I've written the word generic there

Because I think... Big job, but also... And you take on streeting, possible future labour

A difficult job for reform. Because they haven't yet announced what their policy is

So you've taken generic from Chancellor now and put him on top of it. I've now, as chair of these proceedings..

Are you going to put as Chancellor? I'm going to go with Tice. I've come out to the Harwood Doctrine

Here we are. It's all resting on my shoulders. Here we are. So, what we have so far

Nigel Farage as leader, we all agree on that. Deputy PM Richard Tice

and I think Chancellor too. You do okay with this, Catherine? Oh, I said you could..

Didn't I say at the start of this podcast you could give DPM to Genric as a consolation prize

Ah, with health. Yeah. Okay, good. Chancellor then is Tice. Housing Secretary Simon Dudley

love that Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Danny Krug correct Foreign Secretary A.N

Other Peer backed up by Andrew Rosendale and House of Commons like that

Home Secretary Sola Brabman we agree Defence Secretary someone from Defence some brass

some brass from the Lords Sarah Poach Injustice Health Secretary Generic combined with

Deputy Leader possibly maybe N.U. Secretary I think that falls into Tice

Working Pensions Lee Anderson and there we have the beginning the formation

of the next reform UK government or not we'll wait and see Catherine Forster

Tom Harwood it's great to see you Avengers have assembled we will release you

into the weekend thanks for joining us it's been great fun thank you

thank you to our colleague what's her job as well as a brave man the new reform UK

home affairs folks according to us thank you for joining us earlier on Chopper's

political podcast I interviewed on X as Christopher Hope What's your Twitter handle, Catherine

Forster underscore K. Thank you, Tom. At Tom HFH. No one knows why it is, but we..

It's my middle name. Oh, right. Okay, good. That remains between me and my..

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