0:03
hello there I students welcome to I
0:07
podcast you no longer have to worry
0:09
threat or Panic about I because we are
0:12
here to guide you through this test
0:16
jungle enjoy these IELTS tutorials and
0:19
if you need more help want to access the
0:22
fous online course you can visit us at
0:28
how to get ideas for ielt writing task
0:33
two hi there my name is Ben Worthington
0:37
and in this tutorial we've got a very
0:40
special guest um she's an English uh
0:43
lady the teacher who is now who's
0:46
brought up in the West in London to be
0:49
specific and is now teaching over in
0:52
Hong Kong and we were chatting earlier
0:56
because she's also a teacher and she was
0:59
sh sharing some really interesting
1:03
valuable information as to why some
1:09
difficulties um thinking of ideas and
1:12
generating ideas so uh welcome to the
1:16
show Sophie how are you doing thank you
1:20
Ben thank you for having me I'm very
1:21
well thank you how are you I'm good I'm
1:23
good and good so before we jump into
1:26
this Sophie um if it's okay with you
1:29
could you just give give us like a brief
1:31
overview of like you know how you
1:34
managed to get into how you managed to
1:37
find yourself in Hong
1:39
Kong yeah sure so um as you said I was
1:43
born in the UK but I'm ethnically
1:46
Chinese and Vietnamese um and I was I
1:50
was actually teaching uh design and
1:53
visual arts or Art and Design in England
1:56
for about 3 years specializing in GC and
1:59
levels and then I decided that I
2:02
actually wanted to teach abroad and I
2:04
wanted to explore Asia because that's
2:06
ethnically where I'm actually from so in
2:08
order to learn more about my Chinese and
2:11
Asian background I decided to apply for
2:14
an international job in Hong Kong and
2:16
I've been in Hong Kong for about nine
2:18
years now teaching um Art and Design um
2:23
in various curriculum such as uh GSC I
2:25
GSC and the IB um and I've t in three
2:30
different international schools wow
2:33
excellent that Sophie's got a similar
2:36
issue to not issue but a similar
2:38
situation to me uh regarding her accent
2:41
Sophie do you think you modify your
2:45
accent I'm just out of
2:48
curiosity can I modify my accent this is
2:52
a very interesting question then because
2:53
I've been in Asia for nine consecutive
2:57
years almost um and and um when I go
3:01
back to the UK where I was Bor up I I I
3:06
can tell there's a distinct difference
3:07
in the way I speak English in comparison
3:11
to my friends and my family so um I was
3:15
brought up predominantly in London and
3:18
the accent that is usually referred to
3:21
is a cockney accent so you're a cockney
3:25
sorry bit bit of a cockney accent
3:29
but I've been since being in Asia since
3:31
being in in Hong Kong it's more of a a
3:34
more of a an international accent or
3:37
it's more of a polished spoken English
3:39
compared to a cotney accent right so
3:43
basically you've um you've how would you
3:48
say this you've um abandoned your cotney
3:52
Origins I I don't know if I abandoned my
3:55
cotney Origins but I I do realize um I
3:58
remember the experience I had in my
4:01
first year teaching in Hong Kong when I
4:03
pronounced specific words and a lot of
4:06
the students didn't know what I was
4:09
so and I think what it is is especially
4:13
in um a city city like Hong Kong
4:17
students watch things like Netflix or
4:21
more Americanized TV serieses or films
4:25
so their accents are more Americanized
4:27
and I will say English m unless they're
4:30
specifically watching something very
4:34
English so in even speaking in a very as
4:37
English as possible or using a specific
4:40
terminology they just wouldn't
4:41
understand for instance I know the word
4:43
pants in the US is known as trousers in
4:47
in its equivalence in in England so yeah
4:50
it's been an interesting
4:52
experience gotcha Goa yeah well I I've
4:55
said this a few times on the show that
4:57
I've I've modified my accent as well
5:00
just um just so I could be understood
5:03
and also I think I said this just a few
5:06
weeks ago but also I I didn't feel sort
5:09
of like so comfortable teaching students
5:12
uh the Yorkshire pronunciation of
5:15
certain terms because they're learning
5:17
the accent H sorry they're learning the
5:19
language and when you're speaking
5:21
another language your goal is to be is
5:24
to communicate so when I taught I tried
5:30
neutralize my accent a little bit
5:32
because like you certain words they just
5:36
stared at me blank you know and I had to
5:39
really and I had to modify them and then
5:42
I only when the student got it and they
5:44
were like oh he's saying bass and I'm
5:48
like yeah okay it's bass not boss you
5:52
know only then I'd realized that okay
5:55
this is the way they've been taught so
5:57
I'm going to use this termin terminology
6:00
is this accent as well um but yeah I
6:04
think it's all just part and parcel of
6:08
teacher yes I think it's just one of
6:11
those things I think depending on the
6:13
environment that you're in and the
6:16
audience that you're communicating with
6:18
I think it's quite a natural thing to
6:21
alter the way you communicate in order
6:24
to have clearer better communication MH
6:27
yeah totally totally agree
6:30
there and in Hong Kong and I think you
6:34
said as well in Asia in general uh you
6:38
said that well I know as well from
6:40
personal experience with with students
6:42
and you um basically yeah you agreed
6:45
with me but we were talking about that
6:48
it's quite common for students to come
6:51
with this problem of they're finding it
6:53
difficult to get ideas and sometimes
6:56
maybe the brain goes blank the Mind goes
6:58
blank and they can't think of the ideas
7:02
um in your opinion why do you think this
7:07
happens um so being a teacher that tries
7:13
to cultivate creativity
7:15
specifically um what i realiz is that
7:18
there's quite a distinct difference with
7:20
students um born and taught and cultured
7:24
in Western culture and those with an
7:27
Eastern background just from my personal
7:29
experience having taught in London um
7:32
students were able to use their own
7:35
initiative they weren't frightened of
7:37
trying new ideas and testing and
7:40
exploring things that they could find
7:43
that that don't actually work through
7:45
Tri and error they they basically moved
7:48
on from ideas very quickly they were
7:50
very resilient and um they had a growth
7:53
mindset I would say a very positive
7:56
forward way of thinking in terms of
7:59
learning through um making mistakes and
8:03
and and and and in a positive way the
8:05
idea of a mistake is kind of seen as a
8:10
negative thing in Asia in a sense that
8:14
um most students from a very young age
8:17
are taught that there is either a right
8:20
or wrong answer rather than looking at
8:24
the at the idea that there may be great
8:26
areas and different ways of seeing
8:28
things it's usually evil or wrong um I
8:31
see this a lot with with subjects of
8:33
like for instance like math when you
8:36
know there's formulas that you follow or
8:39
there is um a way you do things a
8:41
structure and you follow that and you'll
8:44
get a right answer so in subjects of
8:48
creativity or or subjects that need you
8:51
to use your initiative to think out of
8:53
the box that doesn't follow a follow a
8:55
formula it usually is a bit of a
8:58
challenge especially with students from
9:01
a background in Asia when they've been
9:04
told from a very young age that there's
9:07
a specific way of doing things so the
9:10
there's a an idea of idealistic
9:13
perfectionism as well when you know if
9:15
you try something and it doesn't work
9:18
then it's wrong while in in the in the
9:22
west that's seen as a good thing because
9:24
that's a process of thinking so in terms
9:28
of the differences of the East and the
9:31
West I tend to find soft skills such as
9:34
critical thinking creative thinking
9:36
skills and transfer skills are probably
9:39
a little bit more behind in the East
9:41
compared to the west and conversely like
9:45
the in the East they Excel where there
9:49
is a right and wrong answer such as like
9:51
the the science subjects especially
9:53
mathematics no yes absolutely so more
9:57
academic subjects like like you said
10:00
Math and Science when there is usually
10:02
just a right or wrong answer or one
10:04
answer um students in
10:09
Asia because been basically taught from
10:13
a young age from even the age of five
10:15
they've been tested before they've been
10:18
accepted in the school of their choice
10:20
um when I first moved to Asia my first
10:22
experience was to sit on an academic
10:25
panel interviewing fivey olds for um
10:30
for school positions and I distincly
10:33
remember there was I think I interviewed
10:36
35-year olds wow and there were only 30
10:41
30 um seats in the school and these
10:46
students were interviewed not in just
10:49
English but in Chinese they were tested
10:51
in math and um other other tests as well
10:56
so even from that age they're taught
10:58
look you got to get the right answer so
10:59
don't get the wrong answer otherwise
11:01
there'll be consequences wow that's
11:03
incredible yeah and then if we try and
11:06
apply that mindset to a situation like I
11:11
El's writing task 2 where we've got
11:14
these typical questions where there is
11:17
no right or wrong answer absolutely it
11:21
could be I can totally understand now
11:23
why they find because at first when I
11:25
got into this I was like what's the
11:27
issue why does it so difficult to find
11:29
answers I can uh get ideas I can think
11:32
of ideas and you know until the cows
11:34
come home this is this isn't the
11:36
difficult part for me but time and time
11:39
and time again I got emails from
11:41
students my mind goes blank I can't
11:43
think of ideas you know and yeah it's
11:46
just all com what you were saying now
11:50
just puts it all in perspective and I
11:52
think it would be the equivalent would
11:55
be maybe a Western student getting
11:56
thrown at horrifically difficult alge
12:00
algebra problem by Western standards but
12:02
was probably by Asian standards just
12:09
absolutely yes I mean um students in
12:13
Asia especially if if they're in the
12:17
traditional schools are they're not
12:19
actually from an international school
12:22
they they sit through rigorous tests
12:26
they get tested literally all the time
12:29
time their their test scores is
12:32
basically what gives them value in terms
12:34
of how well they're doing um so it's
12:38
more of the results and when you think
12:39
of results it's usually to do with an
12:42
answer or right wrong answer rather than
12:44
the actual process of learning through
12:46
trial and error so basically they can't
12:49
afford to make any mistakes so their
12:51
mindset is there is only a right or
12:53
wrong answer so when they're being asked
12:56
well can you come up with something else
12:58
they aut atically assume there's a right
13:00
answer to something rather than oh
13:02
there's different possibilities there's
13:04
multiple Alternatives um and they can
13:08
possibly try something that seems quite
13:10
unlikely or an unusual connection to
13:14
ideas and Shedd in their own unique
13:17
unique way of thinking because they
13:20
they've been uniformed to think and
13:22
perform in such a specific way yeah I
13:26
totally agree with you there and also
13:29
it's like there's as I said before
13:31
there's like multiple answers but it's
13:34
the as you said the process of getting
13:36
to that answer and if you can prove your
13:40
process with sort of with related to I
13:42
if you can prove that your argument is
13:46
is correct if you can prove it by
13:48
examples by opinions and by persuasive
13:51
writing then it is correct and it is
13:55
kind of weird now that you think about
13:56
it there's like probably I don't 3,000
14:00
5,000 there's an infinite number of
14:02
right answers all you have to do is
14:04
prove that it's a right answer and then
14:07
coming from in an in an infinite range
14:13
solutions and then approaching that from
14:15
a black and white um approach you know
14:19
from a black and white base where you've
14:21
all your life you've been' been shown uh
14:23
you've been learning it's right wrong
14:25
it's correct it's incorrect and now you
14:27
get thrust into this infinite
14:30
opportunity but you've just got to prove
14:32
your case it's yeah I can now totally
14:35
see why it's um it's ridiculously uh
14:40
basically you know the teaching
14:43
experience and The Learning Experience
14:45
is very different so um what I realized
14:49
in more Local Schools especially it's
14:52
very instructural so it's very much the
14:54
teacher is standing that font and the
14:55
delivery information is received by the
14:58
students so so it's basically taking the
15:00
knowledge from the teacher and
15:02
transplanting it to students like this
15:05
is quite common in in countries like
15:07
China as well when you know sometimes
15:09
the class sizes are 50 or 60 students
15:13
and there's only one teacher so is kind
15:15
of a dictation way of learning but um
15:20
more International ways of thinking or
15:22
even in the western way of thinking it's
15:25
very much of explore find out experiment
15:29
um and and find out your your own
15:32
thoughts opinions and ways of doing
15:35
things or learning things I think the
15:37
the biggest thing I would say is like
15:40
you said it's U make up your own
15:42
opinions students in a local system or
15:45
in a very traditional um Chinese or
15:48
Asian way of teaching they're not
15:51
they've not given the time or space to
15:53
formulate their own opinions yeah
15:56
totally there's there's no time for that
15:58
basically so it's if the teacher dishing
16:00
out the information you receive the
16:03
information and you apply that
16:04
information down there is no scope for
16:06
individuality there yeah absolutely and
16:11
wow it is interesting and how can a
16:14
student then start developing these
16:18
these ideas I mean one way that I put
16:20
forward to students is to basically fill
16:24
their head up with information like if
16:26
their mind goes blank and they get a
16:30
climate change and there's there to sort
16:34
of like even forming an opinion I just
16:36
say look learn about that topic learn
16:39
about the reasons learn about the
16:40
country specifics or each country like
16:43
which countries are pro envi uh
16:46
proclimate change which ones are
16:47
environmentally friendly and learn about
16:50
all this the history that's like one
16:52
technique that I share with students I
16:55
mean in your field or from your
16:57
experience how have you
16:59
really taught to improve a student's
17:03
creativity how have you developed that
17:05
subject I think sometimes it's also
17:08
developing the right environment um to
17:11
allow students to feel safe to share
17:14
their individual ideas so if if a
17:17
student is isn't used to come up with
17:20
their ideas they kind of need to be um
17:23
cultured and nurtured into thinking it's
17:26
okay to a have different ideas and
17:29
different potential ways of seeing
17:31
things um that are different that hasn't
17:35
hasn't actually been explored and to
17:38
teach them that you know through this
17:41
exploration that it's a different way of
17:45
learning is not about the right and
17:46
wrong it's more about the
17:49
exploring um and for them to feel safe
17:52
enough to express communicate that
17:57
and cuz they're they're from the um a
18:00
mindset that's quite boxed in in a sense
18:03
that if the answer is in a box and it's
18:06
correct if it's out of the box then it's
18:08
it's not but if you're trying to
18:11
encourage them to think more out of the
18:12
box he almost trying to answer them well
18:15
what do you think you could even
18:17
actually reverse it and say what do you
18:19
think the wrong answers would be and why
18:21
do you think that might be so it's
18:23
almost reverse learning and challenging
18:26
them to think a little bit more deeply
18:28
more critical at the potential
18:32
possibilities I love that I love that I
18:35
think especially developing the
18:38
environment and that yeah almost
18:42
coincidentally it's like one of the
18:44
modules we've got on the online course
18:46
where we challenge the students to
18:48
develop ideas for a whole range of
18:50
questions and topics and we've got like
18:54
basically the one of the teachers who
18:57
just replies and say to look and because
19:00
some of the students are worried about
19:01
this right and wrong so this is why we
19:03
got the whole whole module about just
19:05
developing ideas and the the whole sort
19:09
of like objective behind that exercise
19:13
is to say look any idea is probably
19:16
valid as long as it's not ridiculous you
19:19
know any idea is valid if you can prove
19:21
and argue that it's valid you know I
19:24
mean with the case to essay writing but
19:27
it goes back to what you said it's
19:28
creating that environment that allows
19:31
for them to like explore without
19:35
consequences explore without failing the
19:38
exam and just to test the water so to
19:40
speak absolutely yeah yeah and just one
19:44
other thing that I'd like you to to
19:46
mention is um before when we were
19:48
talking you mentioned the thing about
19:50
tiger mums and how that oh yeah I found
19:53
that fascinating could you tell us like
19:55
how that impacts the the students as
19:57
well okay so education in Asia is a very
20:03
competitive field like I mentioned when
20:06
I first turn up to Asia I was Interview
20:09
interviewing students in the hundreds
20:11
and we're only five years old and I was
20:14
to getting to a mid it was actually a
20:16
mid-range School in terms of performance
20:18
and achievement so you could imagine how
20:20
competitive it actually is to get into
20:23
some of the top performing schools in
20:25
Asia so students here I mean they go to
20:29
a school they have normal school hours
20:31
but on top of that as soon as they
20:32
finish they have extra private tuition
20:35
after school and during the weekends as
20:38
well so they take education very
20:41
seriously and these students have been
20:44
engrained in them by their parents just
20:48
how important education is and just how
20:51
important it is to do really well in
20:54
your tests and get the results yeah and
20:57
the other thing I so sorry yes oh so I
21:01
guess that that already um imprints a
21:06
fear to to get everything right to be be
21:10
a perfectionist in some sense to do
21:14
things as it should be according to
21:17
their parents and their
21:19
expectations absolutely and the other
21:21
point um I remember distinctly is like
21:24
when you said not only at school are
21:27
they getting this right wrong culture um
21:31
black and white culture so to speak and
21:33
then at home in the curriculum uh after
21:36
school it's right or wrong answers and
21:40
then they've got to basically face the
21:43
parents who have been brought up with
21:45
exactly the same culture of right or
21:48
wrong it's black or white and
21:52
then so it's it's basically from till
21:55
they open their eyes until they go to
21:59
Night from from even before
22:04
starts until and all through their
22:07
academic life until they sort of like
22:09
face they get faced with a certain
22:12
aspect of Western culture that's very
22:15
different and so yeah putting that and
22:18
then you've got to explain as well to
22:20
your parents okay the maybe you have to
22:23
explain I don't know but even that task
22:25
of saying to the parents look there's no
22:28
right or wrong answer here that's as
22:30
well is going to be horrendously
22:32
difficult if they've been brought up for
22:35
the last 50 60 years with the mentality
22:37
of it's right or wrong absolutely I mean
22:41
there there is a a um a an a a cultural
22:46
joke here in Asia where you know if you
22:49
get an A minus that's a bad raade and
22:53
you know in the schools that I've taught
22:55
that is a bad grade wow so yeah your
22:59
your aim is to get at least an a wow and
23:03
your a at least an A and and this is the
23:07
thing should be getting a Stars wow
23:12
so that's insane frame of mind and
23:15
that's the challenge as well that's the
23:17
challenge that that you know as teachers
23:20
Educators you have to sort of break down
23:23
in order to allow creativity and
23:27
possibilities of doing differently to
23:30
enter so I guess it's almost that
23:33
ability to allow a sense of
23:35
vulnerability too but in such a
23:37
competitive environment vulnerability
23:40
isn't necessarily seen as a strength but
23:43
but actually a weakness but in order for
23:46
creativity to be cultivated there needs
23:49
to be a degree of vulnerability and the
23:52
the allowance of making potential
23:55
mistakes in order for richer and improve
23:58
improved learning to take place yeah
24:01
absolutely and the the funny thing is is
24:03
like in the west well I think this can
24:06
be like um it can really be embodied in
24:09
the west by the fact that for example in
24:12
the US having a bankruptcy where you're
24:14
just financially in ruin isn't seen as a
24:17
bad thing it's seen as almost a good
24:19
thing in the fact that you at least
24:21
attempted and you tried to succeed fair
24:24
enough it didn't happen but it's not
24:27
seen as a bad thing whereas in Europe
24:31
especially especially in Continental
24:33
Europe it's it's labeled as a failure
24:35
but in the UK it seems well it does have
24:38
some negative connotations but in the US
24:41
it's like okay you had a bankruptcy pick
24:44
yourself up and get going well done for
24:46
trying keep on trying you know and I
24:49
don't know do you have any experience
24:52
like is bankruptcy seen as a failure in
24:57
curiosity well you think that getting an
24:59
A minus is a fair what you thinky is
25:03
going to do you know because there is um
25:06
in Asian culture sadly enough it's
25:08
almost like if you don't do well in
25:09
school you're going to be sweeping the
25:10
roads right that is a very very common
25:14
fear spoken um projection that parents
25:18
actually communicate to their students
25:21
wow so whenever you ask a student you
25:24
know why do you think it's good why is
25:26
it important to get good grades they
25:27
will say you need to get good grades if
25:29
you don't want to be a road sweeper
25:31
that's their response right wow gotcha
25:35
right so if you say bankruptcy well
25:37
I that's in the same direction as the as
25:40
as that that that um that phrase
25:44
basically even though it's not not a
25:46
true phrase it's something that's been
25:48
ingrained and told to them at such a
25:50
young age they think it's a true thing
25:52
it's is a a conditioned mindset
25:55
absolutely it's become a belief isn't it
25:57
now AB absolutely yeah yeah right well
26:00
thank you uh do you have anything that
26:03
you would like to say sopie it's been a
26:06
pleasure actually to have this open
26:08
conversation and I I hope your audience
26:11
members both students and and parents
26:15
are able to listen to this podcast and
26:18
probably take something away from it and
26:19
reflect and probably think a little bit
26:21
differently with more of a positive
26:24
growth mindset that you know if they try
26:26
something it's only a positive thing to
26:30
process excellent words thank you very
26:53
cheers thanks for listening to IP