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Join us on February 11 with Clark Sell for the next episode of Rockin' The Code World with dotNetDave - a weekly show to learn & live Q&A focused on .NET and other programming technologies.
AGENDA
• Introduction
• Community
• Self Help
• SaaS
• Wrap up
GUEST SPEAKER
Clark Sell Historically trained software developer, architect, and product manager, I've managed to fool companies such as Allstate, Microsoft, and Telerik to let this crazy passionate, entrepreneurial, "see only limitless opportunities" of a person work for them. My wife and I have founded two companies, THAT Conference and Unspecified.
I fell backward into software development because computers help people scale. It's my love for people and helping one another that's led me to a life of building products that build communities. It's my mission to create software that connects people in a more profound and meaningful way.
Today, THAT Conference is one of the largest Family Friendly Technology Conferences. During the pandemic, we created a SAAS platform to connect geeks across the globe. Unspecified is our boutique software development company. We use our extensive enterprise application skills and help small businesses build software to improve their business.
C# Corner - Community of Software and Data Developers
https://www.c-sharpcorner.com
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Hey, geeks. Welcome to another exciting episode of Rockin' the Cold World with Donet Dave
2:07
I'm David McCarter. I'm glad you're here. It's been three weeks. It's been a crazy three weeks, not only in the world, but some stuff personally, too
2:15
And I was just thinking I kind of wish the world would just slow down just a bit right now
2:22
But maybe because I'm getting older and you all are young. And yeah, never mind. Anyway, welcome to show number 73. We're almost to 75. I'm so excited. Simon's excited too. And today our guest is going to be Clark Sell from that conference. So we're going to be talking a lot about community, which is one of my favorite subjects because, you know, I ran a user group for 20 years here in San Diego, California
2:48
And, you know, I've done so much work in community and it's a big thing to me
2:55
And actually, quite frankly, I don't think I'd be where I am if it wasn't for the community that I was a part of here
3:01
So thank you all for getting me here so I could do the show for you all
3:07
So we'll be talking to Clark in a little bit. So let's get going because I don't want to waste too much time
3:12
I want to promote my new book. I just ordered a couple of days ago, real copies, not a proof copy like this one
3:19
So I'm excited to get the real copies in my code performance book for Microsoft.net
3:25
You know, I worked most of last year on this book and it's got tons and tons of graphs and information and, you know
3:32
showing you the best ways to approach things to get the most performance, you know, out of your code, especially these days in the cloud
3:40
So I hope you go pick up a copy. It's available wherever Amazon ships a Prince book
3:46
So go to my website and all the links are right there. So I hope you check it out
3:51
I also, at the beginning of the month, released the new version of Spargin, my open source project I've been working real hard on
3:59
And the cool thing about this version, at least to me, is that, you know, last year, all the work I did for my code performance book, I actually learned a lot from that book
4:11
Even if I don't make a lot of money off of it, it was a really great teaching experience for myself
4:18
And so I've been in this version of Spargin. I've been Spargin, I always mispronounce it
4:26
I have been rolling in a lot of those things I've learned from writing my book into my open source
4:33
And I'm going to keep working on that. So I hope you go check it out. And to make it easier for you to check it out
4:40
my latest article in C Sharp Corner is about the latest version of my open source project
4:46
And it lists all and documents every new method in my open source. I'm really big into documentation
4:54
And so this is kind of my way of doing it is by writing an article about everything I add to it
5:00
And then when I don't have a lot for news things, I actually go back and write about older things that I
5:07
haven't written about. So anyway, I hope you go check out the article and check out Spartan. I've
5:13
had some issues getting all the source code up, but I finally got it up this morning
5:19
GitHub just hates me these last few weeks. All right, I'm going to do a new section and I'm going
5:25
to try to do this fast, Simon, but I'll release this as a clip on Twitter or wherever. But I wanted
5:33
to do a new section called public service announcement. This is where I'm going to get
5:38
on my soapbox, which I usually do anyway, but I kind of wanted to make a thing about it. So
5:46
this is going to be the first one and it's going to be, and all these things I'm going to be talking
5:53
about on public service announcement, if you'd like it, is things that I keep going through
5:58
over and over again. And I just want to warn you, if you don't follow a lot of things that I write about
6:07
it's going to end up costing your project not only money, but features too
6:13
So here goes. Here goes the first one. Dispose and memory issues
6:18
You know I'm really big into this. I write a lot about iDisposable and memory issues
6:25
in Microsoft.net. But this section isn't really for you developers. When I release this on Twitter
6:34
I want you to send this to all of your project managers and managers
6:39
They're the ones that need to listen to this part, right? Because I've already talked to Ambu in the face
6:44
on how to implement iDisposable correctly and how to find disposable issues and things like that
6:49
But this is going to be for your manager, okay? Okay, devs must ensure to not to write code that introduces memory issues
7:00
Okay, yeah, that's a, I would think that's a normal goal, right
7:04
But unfortunately, I don't see this. And I'm not exaggerating. I rarely see this done correctly at all
7:12
But what happens is this will cause issues in the life of your project
7:17
I guarantee you, this will cause issues. Every company that I end up working for they have issues and this is the issue Okay It what I talking about here And it will be costly to fix depending how long and how bad it is Of course I worked on projects six months and didn even fix all of their memory issues
7:40
So this can be very, very costly to your company managers and project managers
7:47
And, you know, that's a big deal, right? It will cause delays in the project
7:54
I guarantee it. Every single project I'm on where this happens, it caused delays in the project
8:01
It will cause merge issues in source code repositories. And this is what I've been
8:08
dealing with in the last couple of weeks is because these are usually over, you know, we
8:14
touch so much of the code and you have other developers working on the code and trying to
8:19
merge that and then get it tested and everything is a freaking nightmare, right? So, and this is
8:27
part of the thing that will cause delays in the project. And lastly, it will cause frustration
8:33
with the team. My team is frustrated with this because they can't merge things. They can't get
8:38
things up. They can't get things tested, you know, and so on and so on. So everybody's frustrated
8:45
that I am very frustrated about this. And so please, please get your team to learn
8:52
about how to prevent this in the first place, okay? Very, very important
8:57
And the way to start, go to my website. I have many, many articles, buy my books
9:02
Every single book I write, I talk about this, okay? But your team needs to code this correctly
9:09
in the first place, or you're going to run into all of those five things
9:14
Every single project I work on, this happens. Okay. So there's the public service announcement
9:21
I don't know how that long that was, Simon. I'm sorry. But you never know when I'm unscripted
9:28
So I want to introduce Clark. He's a historically trained developer, architect, and product manager
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He's managed to fool many companies like Allstate, Microsoft, and Tellarek to let him and his crazy passionate
9:43
entrepreneurial, see only limited opportunities for that person to work for them. And he's the
9:52
guy who started and now runs that conference. And I can keep going on his bio, but my mouth is dry
9:58
and I want to take a drink of coffee. So, oh, sorry, I went ahead. So welcome, Clark
10:05
Thank you for having me. i screw up every bio so um i'm sorry just to do just like everybody else
10:14
you can you can read the bio right that's right so how are you doing i'm doing all right
10:22
you're telling me you're going uh skiing soon so i am you caught me before uh before we start
10:29
packing bags ahead to colorado yeah yeah it's gonna be cold there i'm looking forward to it
10:35
I kind of miss the snow. I don't get to see the snow very much here in Southern California
10:41
I grew up in the snow. I grew up in Flagstaff, Arizona, where it snowed all the time
10:49
One year, it snowed over 200 inches when I lived there. Wow
10:53
Yeah. I kind of miss it during this time of year. I don't miss the cold
11:00
That's why I live here. yeah i i i don't like the gray the gray is the thing that kills me here yeah if it's if it's
11:09
gonna be cold snow but the gray's gotta go need simon simon have you ever uh seen snow or been in
11:16
snow no yeah see some people don't even know what we're talking about that kind of reminds me uh i
11:24
It was back in the back east. I think it was like 2018
11:29
And I decided to take a trip and go to Mount Washington, New Hampshire
11:36
And because I used to go up there as a little tiny kid with my parents
11:39
And I decided to have lunch on the way down at one of the, I think we have five grand hotels in America still
11:50
One is here in San Diego, actually. And the Hotel Dell. and then there's one here right at the base of Mount Washington
11:57
and I decided to have lunch there. What time of year was it
12:03
It was like October or something like that. I'm sitting there having lunch and a little flurries
12:09
I mean, they were just barely flurries coming down. And all of a sudden, the staff from the hotel goes running out
12:17
and going like this. And I asked my waitress, I go, why are they so happy it's it's it's barely doing anything oh they're from the philippines they've
12:30
never seen snow and i go oh okay that makes sense yeah yeah yeah that's that would be that'd be
12:37
interesting yeah it was interesting to see because i just take it for granted because i grew up in it
12:42
right yeah and you you know you do and you know where you live in uh near chicago right and uh
12:48
So, yeah. So some people have never seen that like Simon. So Simon, come visit us and we can take you to some snow
12:57
And actually snow is not very far from where I live, just like an hour away
13:01
So that's the cool thing about Southern California. You can you can surf, you can ski
13:08
And what's the third thing? Now I'm forgetting. You can do like three crazy things all in the span of one day
13:16
Oh, you know, because everything is so close here. We have mountains very close, you know, from to the ocean that this snows or they make snow or whatever
13:25
We can pay taxes, drive on highways or sit in traffic and pay more taxes
13:32
That's what we can do. I'm so glad I don't have to drive on the freeway every day to go to work anymore
13:39
You know, I'm that part of part of my, you know, our job
13:44
I am so happy we have that opportunity. I know not a lot of people do in this country, but I am so glad because now I can stay off the road
13:54
It lowers my stress. I save money, save the planet, all those kind of cool things
13:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. But let's stop talking about you and me
14:06
Let's talk about community. So what do you want to talk about community? So when did you get started in community
14:13
This isn't on the list of my questions. Yeah. You know, I think it's, when did I get started? I got started when my career got started, really
14:22
Yeah, me too. I mean, you said earlier, you know, you don't think you'd be where you are if it wasn't for it
14:27
And I would very much say the same. I've been in this industry now, I don't know, 25 years
14:33
And I was always involved in some aspect somewhere. and it was probably 15 years ago where I really started getting involved in running user groups
14:46
and code camps and things like that and then started running conferences and now run one
14:53
very large one so you sure do yeah yeah I got started the same year I became a professional software developer Yeah The first year I was able to get a permanent job doing it Right I started the same year My first talk ever was the user group I started It was in July of that year I don want to say anymore because it makes me feel old
15:15
but uh yeah yeah it was the same year and that's you know that's how we got this whole ball rolling
15:23
and that's how it got me to where i am and i you know uh when i when it became 25 years i actually
15:29
did a like a conference user group talk about my journey and how just how much you know uh
15:36
you know community has not only helped my career but helped my personal life
15:41
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and then I, you know, there's an article on my website. If anybody wants to read that, I think you can go look for the video, too. But, you know, I had to give credit to the community and to, you know, my my very close developer friends and because I have to give them credit. They got me to where I am
16:01
Yeah, I think we're at a very interesting intersection in life, you know, coming out of this pandemic and, you know, people's online lives grew quite a bit and their connections grew, which is great
16:17
But, you know, I've been on this warpath to remind people that in real life, you know, that human connection is still equally as important
16:25
Oh, more, more. And yeah, I mean, especially right now. Yeah. And we shouldn't forget about it
16:32
And unfortunately, I'm seeing user groups and code camps and all that stuff just dry up and die up because they haven't arrived
16:39
Yeah. We don't have any here anymore. Yeah. That's a concern. It is
16:44
And, you know, I tell people I know Mahesh, you know, says this a lot, you know, when him and I talk together online and even, you know, in person that, you know, that, you know, in person conferences are so much more valuable than online
17:00
Right. And it's not because of the presentations. It's because of the interaction
17:04
Right. And I know I'm a bit different because I'm a speaker and I've been doing this forever
17:10
And I usually don't even go to sessions, right? Because most of the sessions you can get online now, right
17:16
I spend most of the time, you know, either speaking, getting ready for speaking or speaking to people
17:23
And that networking, I, you know, I tell people all the time, I learn more from that than the sessions
17:30
Yeah. I, yeah. And I think, I mean, you're spot on. I kind of historically call that the hallway track. Yeah
17:36
And I think of sessions as this thing that helps start a conversation
17:44
You're right. Chances are what's there you could find somewhere else online
17:51
And I tell people who want to speak, you need to put your own twist on things
17:55
Why are you important? What's your unique perspective on the thing that you're bringing to the table
18:02
Because if it's something that you can Google, then you're just wasting people's time. And we all have a very different lens on the things that we work in and the context of why it matters
18:14
And now, given the kind of proliferation of content online, I think I really challenge people to think a little bit harder about what you're doing in person and getting a little deeper and a little bit more vulnerable on the real shit
18:32
Because why else? Why be there? Right. You've got a big expense, time, travel, whatever, whatever it is, like, let's make the most out of it
18:42
And because what what used to work before isn't really the case anymore
18:47
Right. We've got to adapt, adapt with the times. It's not bad. It's just where we it's our evolution of kind of community
18:53
Yeah. Yeah. It kind of reminded me once, you know, someone, you know, told me a while ago that he comes up to me
19:01
I don't remember where it was. Maybe it was a user, my user group or something. but he says, you know, Dave, how do you know most so much
19:06
It seems like, you know, everything, you know, and I go, well, number one, I don't, but you know
19:11
but if you think that it's because I come to this user group, you know
19:15
you know, it's not, it's not that I am presenting every month
19:20
but I am participating. I'm talking to people and I'm listening to those sessions
19:25
even if it's a subject I'm not super excited about, I still sit there and listen to it. Right
19:31
Yep. And that's how and that's how all that gets into my brain. And I'm able to, you know, put those pieces together, maybe a little bit better than others
19:39
yeah absolutely i mean i i i look to put myself around a tribe of people who i know
19:46
will support one another you know in the good and bad times and when you don't when you're involved
19:54
in a lot of things you don't have to have the answer you just have to know how to ask the right
19:58
questions and find somebody um who can guide you through whatever it is that you're in yeah i mean
20:05
that's, there's too much shit to learn. Like it's impossible to think you would be, you know
20:10
an expert in a thousand of these things. And, um, so, you know, building that network is
20:17
is pretty key. So kind of, you know, we'll, we'll talk, you know, I definitely talk
20:23
want to talk more about your confidence and how you run it and everything. But, you know, since we're kind of been talking about user groups and everything, you know, all the questions I
20:30
I thought about asking you, I thought I wrote it down. Well, so, you know, I, you know
20:39
I ran and started to use a group here for 20 years until I retired
20:43
And then we kind of merged with another group here. And now that group is gone, but, you know, you know, I think
20:51
you know, speakers is always sometimes hard, hard to find, you know
20:57
sometimes, and sometimes I have to fill in the gaps and everything, But I would say the number one challenge I had, you know, running that group for that length of time was having a consistent group of people that would be there, you know, to help them run it
21:14
Right. And that to me was I mean, some people come in for a month or two or maybe six months and leave and just start disappearing and everything
21:22
And I couldn't really count on them. And so I ended up, unfortunately, doing 90 percent of the work sometimes
21:27
And all my friends that live here that help me, I'm not talking about you
21:34
No, but that's indicative. They're still all my really good friends, right? Yeah, that's very indicative of all the user groups
21:39
And it's exactly why they all died up or are drying up
21:45
I'm not sure what the right adjective to use there is or verb. That's why it's all happening as a result of the pandemic
21:51
And I have a few theories, but it's sad because..
22:01
so how do we you know i i think part of the issue and i'm sorry if anybody takes offense but i think
22:11
i just don't see that kind of same uh kind of want to get out of community and help
22:17
with a younger crowd than than us older folks that you know did it when we started right and
22:24
i not talking about everybody but it just kind of feels that other people have said the same thing to me And it kind of feels that way So you know one thing I been thinking of and you know especially since you run a conference you a great person to ask is you know how to how do we get the younger crowd you know interested in this
22:43
Right. I mean, we can complain and whine and everything, but how do we get them interested
22:48
How do we attract them to something? Because we just kind of naturally got attracted to it, I think
22:53
But I think we have to kind of encourage the younger crowd
22:58
So do you have any ideas on that? Well, so I'm going to back up and go to a couple of my theories and then jump into the question because I think it will help normalize some of the thinking
23:10
You know, user groups are great. But unfortunately, and this is very much true for that conference too
23:20
I mean, unfortunately, they start and then sometimes run on the backs of the organizers
23:25
And so they're not really set up to succeed financially. They're not set up to succeed time-wise
23:37
They're not always necessarily, I don't want to say convenient, because there's a lot of work that comes into them
23:43
So I would often see people, you know, trying to do this for the greater good, right
23:48
With all the right intentions, but then having no support to get it done. You know, some, some company would buy a set of pizza and then people would show up and
23:55
eat the pizza and whatever. But like, I think if, if people would have flipped it right
24:02
And thought of a little bit more as a business, right. I'm not saying, you know, full out like profit and P and L's and all that kind of shit, but
24:12
like actually have a sponsorship package actually get yourself on you know some kind of payroll so
24:19
that it is worth your your time right because i think the biggest problem is when your time
24:24
starts to become a value somewhere else then these things kind of go to the side right and
24:30
um like a 501 like the other group here that we merged with was a 501c you know and so they were
24:38
completely different, you know, and they were more, you know, I know that's different, maybe
24:43
a little bit than you're talking about, but they were a little more, a lot more organized than we
24:47
were, you know, my thing was not to be too organized, not to work on it too much because
24:50
we're not making anything and we're not, you know, right. We got to do it the best we can
24:55
But, and the flip side of that is there's two problems, right? If you don't have any opportunity
25:00
to go and do marketing, right. Then your, your people or the people, your available people
25:07
become less right and we don't like sales and marketing historically well you want to just do
25:12
the thing but the reality is people don't know if you don't market and a lot of times people are
25:18
behind the firewall if you will and in their companies and it's through word of mouth and
25:23
you may never see them right they may just may have all the intentions of going and speaking
25:28
and sharing and just have no clue that it even exists i i experienced that when i talked to
25:34
people here when I was running the group and I was going, you don't know about our group. Are you kidding me? You know how much time I spend on that? Right. And so those things get fixed when you have
25:44
some resources, aka money, to be able to scale yourself so that you can bring it. Because the
25:51
thing that concerns me, and this concerns me for that conference too, is if it's to ever go away
25:58
the crater that's left is larger than when it started, right? It's almost damaging in the fact
26:03
that people like for us companies depend on the revenue source and leads and this kind of whatever
26:09
so if it doesn't work i'm kind of painting broad strokes but if it doesn't work for me and i leave
26:15
and it goes away then i've impacted people's kind of livelihood and that's not good either
26:21
right um so fast forward to now right we've had this proliferation of content there's a whole set
26:29
of kids, professionals, you know, whatever you want to say, who have never even, right
26:36
if you came out of college in, I was going to say 1999, 2019, right, and then you went
26:44
into a pandemic, like, your professional life is very skewed to what the reality is
26:51
And you may have never even had an opportunity to work in an office with other individuals
26:58
to understand like what an actual standup feels like in the mornings because you're just doing
27:04
the zoom shit. Um, and so, you know, I think today you kind of that, that level of marketing and
27:14
um, trying to get where people are in conversations like this, um, more of them need to happen
27:23
to where we're really talking about the authentic things that are a result because
27:29
in person's important but if if we don't talk about it and document it and explain and show up
27:37
and do then then they go away right and then in 10 years somebody'd be like i had this great idea
27:44
let's all get together and like have a hackathon you're like no shit we've been trying to do that
27:48
for a decade. I know. You're doing that forever. What are you talking about
27:52
So, you know, you know, marketing and, and, and kind of going where they are, they are
27:58
whoever they is. And, and I worry, you know, I see things like Macedon and whatever, all the
28:07
discord groups and, and Slack groups and all that. And I almost worry that we are getting
28:15
siloed in our own echo chambers and so it's even worse to try to find people because we've
28:22
fragmented so hard like the pendulum has just gone so far the other way that it's almost impossible
28:28
to really try to meet everybody where they are because there's a million places where everybody
28:35
is and that's that's a hard i mean we struggle with that right how do we get the word out where
28:41
do we get it out i can't i want to authentically be in the online places that i am but at the same
28:49
token i can't i also can't be in a thousand discords where do i even know where the thousand
28:55
are right how do you there's no catalog of like here's my discord group for whatever group yeah
29:03
that's exactly what i thought about you know those kind of things macedon i looked at macedon you
29:08
know i checked it out i go that this is seems silly you know i mean i and exactly what you're
29:14
saying you you're getting more and more segmented off and that's our problem i think you know yeah i
29:19
i don't like the echo chamber right um you know love hate twitter i mean social is kind of a whole
29:25
problem in on itself but the ability to see or um you know get dragged into if you will
29:37
different opinions and things that you may have not been aware of that's really important right i
29:43
we run a polyglot conference because we want to create exposure to the stack that you're not in
29:47
because there's things that are valuable to learn there that you would never see if you never went to it and so um i don't know i i think
29:59
Next 10 years are going to be interesting. And I just, I really encourage people to really evaluate your online life and your in-person life and realize that they're complementary of one another, not, they're not a replacement for either
30:17
And you need to invest in yourself and developers. developers i don't know we get in this a little bit too altruistic um in the sense that people
30:28
don't want to spend money and they don't want to buy a course and they don't want to like it's almost like for anything i know right like no you can't succeed unless you succeed right
30:37
and and that's unfortunate because to be able to go buy like you know west boss's course for a
30:44
hundred bucks like it's a hundred dollars yeah the most developers are in the top 10 percent
30:51
earner in the world like spend a hundred dollars one west keeps producing great content and he
30:57
succeeds great we all succeed because we got a pile full of content for a fraction of the cost
31:04
like yeah i'll see i pay for it just just to get a few chapters out of it like you know i've been
31:12
complaining about developers my whole developer life that we developers are the cheapest people
31:17
they don't like to pay for anything i and i used to joke about watching developers trying to split
31:24
a bill at a restaurant it's really funny you know instead of saying just split it in five ways
31:30
they all have to write a software program right well he had three drinks now he had one and uh
31:36
You know, it frustrated me so much that, you know, when I was teaching at the university, you know, one of the things I had them do for a lab was create a calculator, a bill splitter calculator, you know, that included the tip and all that kind of stuff
31:55
So developers could use it. Yeah. And, and look, you know, for me, I just, I just want people to invest in themselves and not be scared to spend a hundred dollars because the time and the ecosystem, yeah, the time, the ecosystem that surrounds it will, will thrive when we all contribute to it
32:24
right and you know too many people i i see too many people waiting for somebody else to invest
32:33
in them and that's that's not going to work no you have to go get it you've got to go do it yourself
32:41
and and i don't you know don't give me the excuse about i got kids i don't have time
32:46
I've got kids let me tell you yeah like like let me tell you my time you have time you just have to
32:54
manage it better and um and I get it like we we work in a hard a mental certainly mentally
33:02
hard field and at times you don't want to do it and and that's okay too but um you will
33:09
exponentially grow when you invest a little bit and sometimes that little bit
33:14
means you need to outlay a little cash and that's you know that's okay excuse me so you know quite
33:23
frankly i was actually thinking about this the other week that you know i think you know i'm
33:28
you know having a harder time kind of keeping up and everything because i don't teach at the
33:34
university because i don't run my user group anymore well we don't even have a user group
33:37
anymore to go to. Right. So I, I'm feeling it. I'm feeling the, you know, not being as I shouldn't
33:45
say this, trying to get a job or anything, but you know, I'm feeling that, you know, I wish there
33:50
was more community here and, and, you know, and, you know, there of course is the opportunity to
33:56
start a community, but I've already told my friends that I'm not doing this alone again
34:01
right right i'm going to be a minor part in this this time right and uh and so we don't have a
34:08
group you know we still don't have anybody with that gusto or that kind of plan like kind of what
34:13
you were talking about earlier right yeah and i you know i mean we we struggle i mean thankfully
34:20
we're still here at the moment given the pandemic and all that but um it's still a struggle to try
34:25
to get, or I should say the struggle seems to be getting harder and harder. And then you add
34:32
inflation to things and all this other stuff that's going on. And people are like, oh, this
34:38
is expensive. And it's like, yeah, I know. Well, some people complain they have to pay
34:45
what, $4.99 a month to read articles on my site. And I go, look, you know how much time I
34:51
spent to come up with this right i mean a cup of coffee you're you're a software developer
34:56
and you're complaining about 4.99 yeah really come on it's it's you know i tell people i even
35:03
you know it frustrates me i'm sorry to say to my crowd that frustrates me i can't get enough people
35:09
to like support you know my the causes like i try to support the you know which i'll talk about the
35:16
end of the show right i i really wish i mean we we have made some money here at c sharp corner for
35:22
uh the voice of slum and i'm so proud of that and you know and you know when we visited the
35:27
voice of slum in october you know we brought them five computers and you know so i you know but
35:32
getting that little bit i've done is a lot harder than it should be yeah this is what i'm saying
35:40
Yeah. And I don't want to turn all this into about money. I just, I want to, I want people
35:46
to reevaluate their relationship with money in this industry because everything can't be free
35:54
right? People's time isn't free and we will only benefit by supporting the thriving ecosystem
36:03
Right. And that's such an important part. I think a lot of people, unfortunately
36:09
don't understand that, you know, when you don't pay for it, then you're the product
36:13
Right. Right. And, and they don't understand that. And so they just want to be the product
36:18
all the time, I guess. And, you know, for those of us who don't have that kind of infrastructure
36:24
you know, to, to make it that way, then, you know, we're just kind of doing the, the, you know
36:30
that to help people, not necessarily, you know, have. Yeah. We, we have a membership program
36:36
at that conference and it's 150 bucks a year and i make it real clear like you're you're not the
36:42
product i am and this is a way to support us um so that we can try to achieve and pay our monthly
36:49
bills and and all that but i'm not i don't want to spend money like selling data and all i don't
36:57
want to do any of that stuff but um but you're right so many people are all right with just
37:04
give it the product the twitters and whatever else but then it comes down to 4.99 you're like
37:09
okay i don't get it literally more for that than coffee these days right right anyway i don't want
37:17
to get in trouble with youtube so let's talk about that conference so why did you start that
37:22
conference you know you got started right when you in community when you first started you know being a developer just just like me what made you decide Because I know I might complain sometimes about running the user group
37:35
but it was one of the best things I ever did. Don't get me wrong
37:39
So what made you kind of jump from that kind of community world
37:45
to really making an official, real conference? Yeah. Multiple cities now, right
37:51
Yeah, multiple cities. yeah uh outside of austin and then uh in the wisconsin dells so wisconsin and texas yeah um
37:59
you know i so the year's 2010 um to age myself and i was speaking all over the country
38:09
and there were a lot of cities that had a much stronger um kind of developer culture than what
38:20
I thought we had in the Midwest. What I saw was a lot of very segmented groups. You'd have a Ruby
38:26
group and a .NET group and a this and a this and a whatever. And people weren't really kind of
38:31
sharing across. And then you have like in the city and out of the city. And then you, I mean
38:36
we've got major metros around here. So Milwaukee, Madison, Chicago, like all these big cities. And
38:41
it was just like, you know, fragmented all over the place. And I wanted to fix that. I
38:50
I worked in, you know, .NET and Ruby and other things. And I was like, why can't all this shit
38:58
just be kind of in one place? And why can't we have a more vibrant ecosystem? But also at the
39:05
same time and you know still an issue today but you know getting um women in tech or black people
39:16
or whatever right name non-white dude in tech is um was difficult right and the strategies back
39:26
then were like convince the nurse to hop the fence and that doesn't really work um now i grew up you
39:33
know as a mechanic and um you know grandfather's into trades and all that kind of stuff and he
39:39
always had something physical to touch right it was a building it was a farm it was a car or
39:45
whatever but we work on ones and zeros so it's kind of like we're magicians like we type on a
39:51
keyboard and people are like oh great i don't understand why it took so long exactly so exactly
39:57
way i feel most people think about us yeah and so i um i wanted to give kids a place where they
40:04
can see their parents um as heroes and get exposure to things that um they may not get in school
40:12
um so the the idea was let's have a family-friendly uh tech conference that's at a at a water park
40:20
And we live next to or sort of live next to a town that's just this nothing but water parks
40:28
And it's in the middle of a cornfield and it works out well because it's in the middle of everything
40:33
Right. It's in the middle of the Twin Cities to Chicago, Madison, the Milwaukee
40:38
Like it's just in the middle. And and so the point was, let's just get everybody together, have fun and learn
40:49
right create exposure for kids and spouses get to meet somebody's wife or husband because you hear
40:55
about them at work but you don't always get to see you you never met them before so how can we just
40:59
kind of bring it all together and um and so in 2012 or in 2010 we made the announcement in 2012
41:05
we had our first event there was probably about 400 people in 2019 um in wisconsin we had 1800
41:13
100 folks 350 kids 300 spouses you know 35 kids spoke okay um it was you know i've we got to a
41:24
place where we were watching adults go to sessions of teenagers to learn from them right and that's
41:32
that's exactly the kind of thing that should be happening when you have an ecosystem that is of
41:39
full respect and vulnerability and support and all that. And then of course the pandemic came
41:48
and we decided that we really kind of expanded since then for a variety of reasons. But the
41:55
impetus was let's get people together. Let's be a place where kids can meet other kids who are
42:02
interested in the same things. Let's meet the spouses. Let's have a good time. Let's recenter
42:09
Learn some new stuff, you know, and have some fun. And I guess it worked
42:16
Can single guys come? Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean. I'm signing up
42:22
I'm going to be a camp counselor. I said family friendly. How about that
42:26
Yeah, we've got people of all ages, you know, two to. When is the next one
42:34
May? July. July. January and July. July in Wisconsin. January in Texas. And so it's, it's, it's that in person experience where it's not just about
42:52
sessions. It's about people. It's about you. It's about your whole self. You know, when there's 150
42:58
sessions, they kind of span, you know, self-help to, you know, totally geeky stuff. So it's cool
43:06
You know, it's having just, we just finished the Texas one. And that's, that was our second time
43:13
And it was proof to me that, you know, especially right now, people need people
43:19
And we're, we're. How many did you have in Texas? Like 250
43:26
Yeah. Everything's trying to get back to normal, right? It's going to be tough in the beginning
43:30
Yep. Yeah. That's, I think we'll be, I think for Wisconsin, we'll be back to
43:36
Let's see, 2021, we had 425. Last year, we had like nine and a quarter
43:45
I think we'll get pretty close to 1,300 in Wisconsin this time
43:49
But it depends. You know, it's such a different world with companies cutting their training budgets
43:59
I don't get that. It's a little bit all over the place
44:04
um i'm i'm seeing companies now saying that their people can't leave because of
44:10
you know product deadlines and it's just it's we see like all all spectrums right we we have i
44:20
can't hire anybody to either i'm in a fire or i'm not going to let you go do anything and it's like
44:26
holy cow let's just get in the middle retain your people train them have a good time yeah you might
44:34
actually grow like there's a concept yeah i i talk to developers about you know does your company
44:40
provide you know any kind of training you know support you either you know by paying for it or
44:45
sending you the conferences and hardly anybody does anymore and you know i remember back in the
44:51
day you know that you know whenever i would sign up with a company i would have written in the employment contract that they had to send me to two conferences a year They had to And one time here when I was working I was the original official
45:07
development department of proflowers.com. And I remember it's always crunch time, right
45:15
It's always. It's pretty much always time, especially nowadays. It's always crunch time
45:19
It's always late. Needed to be yesterday. right right and so it was it was i i don't remember what was going on it was so long ago
45:26
and uh and she goes well and i remember i told her i go remember i'm going to the you know blah
45:32
blah blah conference i already signed up and paid and blah blah blah and she goes well you can't go
45:35
and i go and i walked back to my desk i printed my employment card that page of the point yeah
45:42
i went back to her that showed it to her she goes okay i guess you gotta go it was fine like it still
45:50
got done. Well, at least got done. Now you don't even get the money. Now they won't even approve
45:54
you to do things like that. Right. Yeah. You know, you know, the only reason, you know, if we held
45:59
code camps, you know, during the weekday, we'd get nobody. And that's why we usually held them
46:04
in the week weekend because, you know, that's when people had free time. They could come because
46:08
companies just don't let you go anywhere anymore. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really difficult. Um
46:15
And it's disappointing because, like I said, I just see all spectrums of things
46:23
And I don't know, companies need to kind of step back and ask what the hell they're doing
46:33
I know that the proliferation of things like Udemy and Pluralsight and all that, they're good, right
46:42
I don't, don't get me wrong, but they're also not a replacement. Right. Right. And just because it's your training budget, you save some dollars because you gave them a Pluralsight course
46:54
That's not the same. It's not the same. No, not the same at all. Definitely not the same. So, you know, I, you know, one thing I was thinking about when you were talking was, you know, I don't know about you, but, you know, after COVID hit, you know, I didn't realize this until COVID hit
47:12
about six months after COVID hit, you know, I really started feeling this, you know, because
47:18
I'm not going this going anywhere, you know, I'm, I'm not talking about concerts and stuff
47:23
I go, you know, speaking, you know, I'm not going to India. I'm not going to wherever, you know, to speak at conferences anymore
47:30
And I was starting to feel it started bothering me. Like I'm going through some kind of withdrawal, you know, and unfortunately now I'm used to
47:38
it and I don't like that either. Yep. No, that's very much a thing. And you're not alone in that. I talk to a lot of folks who have, what's a good way to put it? Exactly the same situation as you. I did a thing. I felt uncomfortable. Now the uncomfortable is fine
48:04
right they don't know it but then i'm seeing folks show up at the at a conference at our
48:09
conference and then it's like the the letdown happens and all of the the weight of the past
48:18
few years starts to come out and i just feel bad i i i genuinely think we and it's probably
48:27
i can probably relate to men in this case a little bit more who have been trying to provide
48:32
and have families and kids and they're just trying to keep their shit together and you know you see
48:39
them for the first time and you haven't seen them in a few years and they're kind of kicking back
48:43
and they're realizing shit i really missed all this i really missed the intimate connections
48:50
that i'm making and meeting new people and you just see like this world of of um pain kind of
48:58
get released and um it's you know it's a real problem i kind of had to start getting used to
49:04
people i remember you know i i have it written down in my journal that you know when i first
49:10
started you know seeing my friends you know in the real world for the first time since covet hit
49:15
i remember feeling uncomfortable and not wanting to be there and i'm sorry
49:20
if you're watching but you know i it was a weird feeling because i spent so many because
49:27
I, I, unfortunately I live alone. And so, you know, it was really difficult
49:33
It's, it's, it was really difficult for me to do that. The first, I mean
49:38
like I would say handful of times I, I remember having issues with that
49:44
And across the U S everybody's dealing with a little bit differently. You know
49:48
you all out on the West have a different opinion of COVID and whatnot than the
49:53
in a central region than the east coast than somebody who's had kids versus somebody who's
49:58
in the trades you know we we've had to um you know i have two kids who are in club sports and
50:08
um you know they're active teenagers so you know we've been i was going to ask you if you're
50:13
Yeah. Soon to be 17 and 15. So we've, we've been at games and like all we've had to be out, right. It's this life. And so it's, you know, I, I don't, I don't want to get into politics, but you know, there's these narratives that get created and you see, and depending upon, you know, what you choose to take in versus you
50:43
being around and acting with other folks like this is where the disconnect comes in it's like oh i saw
50:49
this shit online and then but then it's like oh but over here people are like actually doing stuff
50:53
right and so um you know things will get you know hopefully get normalized over the years to come
51:00
but well i think it will you know and even you know i you know i i wrote a series of articles
51:06
about what I hope COVID shows everybody. And some of it's come true
51:13
but one of the things I don't know if I wrote in the article, but I definitely thought about it is that
51:18
I think it is valuable to have an online presence at a conference
51:23
Oh, yeah. Definitely for those of people around the world that don't have access to come to Chicago
51:30
or Austin, Texas, right? And so I think it's valuable for that
51:35
because not many conferences did that at all before, right? No. And so one of the things I hoped
51:42
and I've even talked to Mahesh about starting a conference here. Mahesh is who runs C Sharp Corner
51:48
and we're kind of thinking that too. It's got to be some kind of hybrid thing
51:55
especially because nobody from India can come, right? So it's definitely, we want to make sure those people
52:03
get you know get that value of the conference you know i mean of course they won't get what we've
52:07
been talking about the whole time you know uh this hour but but at least they can get the content and
52:13
and at least see the person and it's a little better than just reading slides or something like
52:18
that right yeah one of the things that we you know this there another part of my life which is um online communities and um one of the things that we were trying to sort out before the pandemic was how do we connect people between the conference Conference is great but it super limiting
52:38
right? I have, you have so many days, so many people, so many this, that, and the other that
52:43
you can only physically do because you're in person, right? And, and that only, that only
52:53
works for those four days right but a community is 365 days out of the year um and so we do this
53:01
thing at the conference called uh open spaces it's essentially an unconference um but we have
53:09
these huge boards and there's one for every day and they've got a grid on them and it is it is
53:15
the time and it is uh circles and they're just circles of chairs so we got 15 000 square feet
53:22
kind of set aside and there's 16 circles of nothing but chairs and you you go up and you
53:30
we have a kickoff for the for the open spaces and you go up and you say hey i want to learn about
53:34
i'm new i've been a javascript developer i want to learn about c sharp i'd like to have that
53:40
conversation monday at two o'clock in circle 15 and whoever shows up they're the right people for
53:49
as long as it takes, it's the, as, as long as it needed to take. And whatever was talked about was
53:54
the things that were right. So you have this very unstructured conversation that is relevant to you
54:00
in your life at that time, right? Context matters. It can go anywhere, the whole nine yards. And so
54:06
we took that spirit and brought it online and said, why can't we just do an unconference or
54:12
an open space whenever and so you can go to that.us and you can add a session we call them
54:19
activities add an activity to the board and do exactly like what you and I are doing we basically
54:24
are facilitating virtual calls to where you can get in and talk and share your screen and breakout
54:31
rooms whatever but rather than slinging slides and shit like that you can have a conversation
54:37
We can, the next best thing to being in person is seeing one another and saying, how do we scale this conversation online? Because let's say, let's just pretend that I like Svelte. Well, there's a lot of people in like the Nordic countries that love Svelte too
54:54
well I would really like to interface with them but I sure as hell can't afford the fly over there
54:59
but there's this thing called the internet and a web browser where we can do that
55:03
and so we now have these two milestone events if you will
55:09
and then this online thing where you can interact any day of the year from anywhere on any topic
55:15
and continue the conversation when it's relevant to you And you're right. I mean, online is important. I think you have to, or I would encourage people to not try to replicate what you're doing in person because it's not the same, right
55:38
When you're in person, you can do something that's different. When you're online, you can do something that's online
55:45
And treating those mediums as they were intended to be used is important
55:51
And lean into what you can do, right? The internet gives us this infinite scale
55:56
And streaming's got so much better. And all that we can do, right
56:00
The asynchronous nature of the internet is amazing. Use it, right? Like you don't use a hammer to put in a screw
56:10
So don't use the internet to just sling slides. Like YouTube makes video distribution easy
56:19
Don't make YouTube. Don't do that. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah
56:24
Yeah. Well, I got to let you go. So Simon can go to bed or whatever he's going to do next
56:30
We didn't get any questions, but that's okay. I think this was a – I don't know
56:36
I really like this conversation about, you know, around community and getting out there and just, you know, I, I just like you, I talked to blue in my face about how important that is to do that
56:48
And I need to be better at it. And I'm definitely now going, dang it. I'm going to sign up to be a counselor and at the next one
56:56
And hopefully I can come and visit you live and in person, you know, because you're right. You're totally right
57:03
And it looks, it sounds to me, and I didn't know this by, you know, looking at your website, but it sounds to me like you've really kind of tried to create something, you know, that you have to pay to go to, but it's more like a community
57:19
Oh, yeah. Right. It's not a business, right? My new thing is it's the only conference that's a community
57:25
Right. Yeah. And we are very much community first. The conference is a facility of which we can get together and learn from one another
57:34
The reason we're in Texas is it's easy to travel to. The reason I'm in Wisconsin is because it's where my roots are
57:42
That's where you live. That's why the user group meeting is two blocks of my house
57:47
Right. So, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, it's been great chatting with you
57:54
And, uh, uh, I know we talked, you're going to go skiing, but you know, what else do you
57:59
do for fun besides work? Well, I used to, uh, I've got a couple of classic cars that I love working on when I
58:07
have an opportunity, you know, my kids are at a certain age to where, you know, just
58:12
spending time with them and having fun and, you know, watching soccer at their, you're
58:17
going to do adult stuff now. You can go snowboarding with your kids. Yeah. It's awesome
58:21
Yeah. It is a different, you know, I've only got a few years left before they're kind of off on their own. So I'm trying to maximize that time with them
58:30
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a fun time and, and you're right. You got to spend the time when you can. And, and, you know, and, and not trying to, you know, leave this on a sad note, but especially what happened in Turkey this, this week is that, you know, anytime you can spend with somebody is precious and make sure you
58:50
value that and be present when you can because you never know what's going to happen the next
58:57
day. We're due for a big one here. As developers, we often marginalize our time. So be present
59:06
put the phone down. It's okay. Take a break. You'll probably solve it faster in the morning
59:11
Yeah. Well, it's been awesome talking to you and it's been awesome getting to know what that
59:17
conference really is all about. And I'm really glad that you came on and got to talk to me today
59:25
And I liked it just for that. So I hope everybody else got something out of it. And I hope everybody
59:32
else goes out and starts working in the community because as we've been talking about, this will
59:38
dramatically improve your career and your personal life. Yep. I agree. right absolutely well i'll see you next time and i hope i see you in at the next uh that conference
59:49
absolutely yeah thank you for having me thanks wow just like i said that was i don't know i
59:54
really enjoyed that conversation i know we were kind of complaining a bit but uh
1:00:00
I really enjoyed that. Sorry, I was looking at myself. I don't know why. I really enjoyed that because, you know, anybody who knows, really knows me knows how important community is to me
1:00:11
And it's great to, you know, not only find someone else who feels that same way as I do, but is able to, you know, help others in that same way and in a good manner from what I hear
1:00:25
And so I'll get to know in person, hopefully, if I get to go at the next that conference
1:00:32
And so if you live in America, if you want to go to the next one, go check it out
1:00:37
I'm sorry. This was not meant to be an advertisement by any stretch
1:00:42
But I mean, I'm excited to go to that conference. Oh, that conference
1:00:47
Oh, OK. And speaking of you laughing, technical debt. Oh, my gosh
1:00:57
You know, you all know I'm a contractor. And unfortunately, I have to deal with this all the time
1:01:03
And it just, ugh. So I found this this week. Somebody tweeted, and I liked it
1:01:07
Understand why it takes so long to add a new window. Exactly
1:01:13
Exactly what happens when you don't architect your applications correctly. Oh, I see this over and over, over and over and over
1:01:22
All right. Oh, and I just talked about Turkey. You know unfortunately that happened this week But also unfortunately we running up against the year the first year of the Ukrainian conflict
1:01:39
And I don't know, it's making me more and more sad. But not only because I have friends there and I've been there, but, you know, to see, you know, a country completely destroyed for no reason is just, you know, in 2023
1:01:54
I don't know. But if you can help out, if you can support, even with prayers, I hope you can do that because, you know, everybody in Ukraine and Turkey need our support right now
1:02:06
So I hope you go help out others. We have the ability to help everybody
1:02:12
We have the ability to help people, as we were talking about today
1:02:16
And so I hope you will go do that. And speaking of help, I hope you will help me help the kids in India
1:02:24
You know, The Voice of Slum is very, very important to me. Actually, because of you, I'm going to be sending them some money
1:02:31
Some of you have been buying my e-book on code performance. And so thank you so much
1:02:37
As soon as I get that payment from Amazon, I'm going to be sending it directly to The Voice of Slum
1:02:42
So thank you very much. But you can go to thevoiceofslum.org or you can go scan that or go to that GoFundMe I'd
1:02:51
set up, which no one's donated in a while. But you can do those things to help me help the kids in India
1:02:58
Like I talked about earlier I was able to visit them last October which was very special to me And I really really liked it And I was really happy to see Chandi and Dave the founders and also bring them five computers that they needed to help teach the kids
1:03:14
And, you know, we need to help people. And so that's, you know, that's my way of helping
1:03:20
So, all right. Thanks for watching. Khalid is next week. So I'm really looking forward to that
1:03:27
because since he doesn't tweet anymore, I miss him. So I can't wait to catch up and talk about what we're going to be talking about next week
1:03:34
So don't forget to be back here at the same time, same channel next week
1:03:39
Please be careful with COVID. It's not over, unfortunately, but it's getting better
1:03:45
So but still be careful. And also, please donate blood at your local blood bank
1:03:50
I did a couple of weeks ago. Finally, you know, here in San Diego, when I go to India, I can't donate for three months
1:03:57
So two weeks ago, I was able to donate and that really made my day
1:04:02
And because you all know how important this is to me and you can do it too, because it's free and easy
1:04:08
It only takes like a half hour for you. Takes two hours for me, but a few half hour
1:04:14
All right. And please email suggestions who you want me to invite on the show, what subjects you want on the show
1:04:22
like I say a lot this is your show so any feedback I will take
1:04:28
and incorporate into the show with that I'll see you next week thanks a lot applause applause
1:04:36
applause applause music music music Thank you
1:05:06
Thank you
1:05:36
Thank you
1:06:06
Thank you
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