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Free Thinking, where City AM's Opinion and Features Editor Alys Denby takes you through the sharpest analysis from the comment pages of City AM.
This week she's joined by writer and City AM columnist Eliot Wilson to discuss whether Elon Musk is paying the price for mixing politics and business, whether Gen Z would defend their country and if masculinity is in crisis.
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Produced by: Alys Denby, Emmanuel Nwosu, Joseph Curay Teneda
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0:00
I'm not entirely sure that the
0:01
relationship between Trump and musk will
0:02
last they're very very different people
0:05
in in some ways in political and and
0:08
economic ways we're seeing with with the
0:10
move from Baby Boomers to Gen X to to
0:13
gen Zed for the first time we've got a
0:15
generation who will be worse off than
0:16
their parents that's virtually
0:18
unprecedented in history you know
0:19
talking about mental health we know that
0:21
the biggest single killer of men under
0:23
40
0:25
suicide hello welcome to freeth thinking
0:28
where we go through the sharpest
0:30
analysis and boldest opinion fresh from
0:31
the comment pages of city with me Alice
0:34
Demby opinion and features editor of
0:37
City this week we'll be talking about
0:39
Elon Musk and where the falls in Tesla
0:41
sales are assigned that the magga
0:42
billionaire is paying the price for
0:44
mixing business with politics We'll be
0:46
asking whether gen Zed would fight in a
0:48
war and I'll be saying that you should
0:49
be thinking about men on this
0:51
International women's day joining me to
0:53
discuss this is writer businessman
0:55
former clerk at the House of Commons and
0:57
City columnist Elliot Wilson Elliot
1:00
thanks so much for joining me um so you
1:01
wrote a really popular column for us
1:03
this week about Elon Musk um always
1:05
makes for great copy um Talk us through
1:07
your argument well it occurred to me
1:10
that um I read that Tesla sales in
1:12
Europe had fallen quite sharply there's
1:14
obviously a difference I think emerging
1:17
quite starkly between Donald Trump's
1:18
popularity in America where it seems to
1:20
be holding up reasonably well um and his
1:23
popularity in Europe which is is much
1:25
lower and there are cultural reasons for
1:26
that and and political reasons but if
1:30
there is a factor there in in Tesla
1:32
sales going down then it says something
1:34
quite interesting about the way that
1:35
businesses approach politics because
1:37
there has been uh an idea for a long
1:40
time that for example the people on the
1:42
right have said that businesses
1:44
shouldn't get into ESG or into diversity
1:47
equity and inclusion because these are
1:49
political decisions and there will be a
1:50
backlash no I think that's absolutely
1:53
true but what we're seeing actually as
1:54
as a first step is is that the opposite
1:56
is happening because people are looking
1:58
people in Europe anyway are looking at
1:59
how El musk is acting as a kind of
2:01
representative of the Trump
2:02
Administration and they don't like what
2:04
they see it would seem and at least some
2:06
of them are therefore you know making
2:09
commercial decisions on that basis yeah
2:11
I think what I found really interesting
2:12
about your piece is that people have
2:13
talked before about the dangers of sort
2:15
of going woke go woke broke go broke
2:17
we've seen things like um Bud Light
2:19
sales dropped when they uh had a a
2:22
certain influencer uh advertising for
2:24
them but actually I think you know so
2:26
we've we've seen it happen on the left
2:27
but now we're sort of seeing it on the
2:29
right and I think that that that's a
2:31
really interesting phenomenon well it's
2:33
as if you know people on the right
2:35
forgot but accused the left of
2:37
forgetting that the market will decide
2:39
these things you know people will make
2:41
their purchasing decisions based on all
2:42
sorts of factors and if you don't appeal
2:44
to your potential market then they'll go
2:47
somewhere else and you know Elon Musk is
2:49
is a very successful uh head of a an
2:52
electric vehicles company but there are
2:54
other products out there and if people
2:56
don't want to buy a Tesla then it's not
2:58
their only option so you know both both
3:00
sides of the Divide are being reminded
3:01
of the reality of market economics which
3:03
is probably a good thing yeah I suppose
3:04
it probably is a good thing I reminds me
3:06
I think it was Milton fredman who said
3:08
about social responsibility that it's
3:09
essentially a socialist idea to have any
3:12
to have political forces rather than
3:14
Market forces deciding things and that
3:16
you know the point of businesses is to
3:18
make profits right I mean absolutely you
3:21
know the businesses are there to make
3:22
profits for their shareholders they're
3:24
perfectly entitled to engage in in you
3:27
know social and and cultural activities
3:29
and political activities but that comes
3:31
at a risk and I think you need to accept
3:33
that and I think what perhaps the left
3:35
didn't accept for a long time was that
3:38
decisions which seemed to them
3:39
impeccably Progressive and Universal
3:42
wouldn't be shared by everyone and now
3:44
the right is finding that their
3:45
principles are also not necessarily
3:47
universally shared but you know you you
3:49
take a risk as a business getting into
3:51
any controversial area and you're
3:53
perfectly entitled to do that but you
3:54
can't then complain if if the market
3:56
bites you back it it seems unprecedented
3:58
to me um I I think there's there's an
4:01
interesting Duality though of
4:03
appearances and reality because Elon
4:05
Musk is making a lot of noise and he's
4:07
very good at that and if you own X then
4:10
you you've got a good platform you've
4:11
got you know however many millions
4:13
hundreds of millions of people who will
4:14
read your your comments at every time of
4:16
the day um and he's made a big impact
4:19
you know he's virtually closed down USA
4:21
ID uh he's got various Federal programs
4:24
a federal jobs some of that is now being
4:27
rolled back by the courts some of that
4:30
has had to be reinstated because they
4:31
realize they've sacked the wrong people
4:34
um so there's still a question mark and
4:36
it occurred to me the other day that you
4:37
know we're not yet two months from the
4:39
inauguration you know it's very very
4:41
early days days we've got another 46
4:43
months of this um and also I'm not
4:46
entirely sure that the relationship
4:47
between Trump and musk will last because
4:49
they're they're very very different
4:51
people in in some ways in political and
4:54
and economic ways and to a great extent
4:57
I mean El musk essentially believes in
5:00
in free trade and you know market
5:01
economics Trump doesn't so I think that
5:04
relationship May explode at some point
5:06
but there is this question of how much
5:10
when it all shakes out in 12 18 months
5:13
two years how much will actually have
5:15
happened um and how much will have been
5:17
a kind of fever dream for us all that
5:19
look back on and think oh that was all
5:21
nothing wasn't it I think this is funny
5:23
there's a very odd tension in the
5:25
relationship between Trump and musk
5:27
because on the one hand musk is sort of
5:28
cutting all this wasteful spending
5:30
and on the other hand Trump is saying oh
5:31
we're going to put an American flag on
5:33
Mars which is presumably going to be
5:34
Elon SpaceX that does it I think what
5:37
we're having to realize is that Donald
5:39
Trump doesn't have an ideology in any
5:41
conventional sense he believes in in
5:44
certain things I mean I I keep going
5:46
back to the argument that that John
5:47
Bolton his his former National Security
5:49
adviser made that he doesn't have
5:50
beliefs he has sort of little
5:51
archipelagos of ideas and if you try to
5:54
stitch them together you're on a Fool's
5:55
errand you know he he believes in
5:57
tariffs not because of Any economic
5:59
reason but because there a kind of power
6:02
battle between between countries um he
6:05
doesn't really necessarily believe in in
6:07
small government or or the free market
6:09
he believes in it for certain ideas but
6:11
in other times you know as you say he
6:13
wants to put an American flag on Mars
6:15
for no apparent reason um so I think
6:17
we've got somebody who in Elon Musk is a
6:20
very strange character and a very very
6:23
odd and and unpredictable man but he
6:26
does have a recognizable ideological
6:28
base and just doesn't and doesn't see
6:31
the need for one he doesn't care um and
6:33
so when we look at Trump I think we
6:35
always have to recognize and we're
6:36
seeing this more and more in this
6:38
Administration than we did in the first
6:40
that the the rules don't apply to him
6:42
anymore and I think you can see that so
6:44
clearly playing out in what's currently
6:46
happening with the war in Ukraine Donald
6:48
Trump doesn't have a kind of moral
6:50
attitude to this he doesn't see Russia
6:51
as being wrong um he doesn't see Ukraine
6:55
as a victim here he just wants to make a
6:57
deal um and this puts Britain in a very
7:00
difficult position as uh I think the
7:01
next thing we're going to talk about
7:02
James Price's column talks about we are
7:04
now in a period of rearmament we in a
7:08
dangerous place in Europe um and we're
7:11
very possibly going to have to be
7:12
deploying troops on the ground in
7:15
Ukraine and the real question is who are
7:17
who are these people going to be if we
7:19
need to massively expand the Army how
7:21
are we going to get gen Zed to sign up
7:23
we've seen polling showing that they
7:25
were not prepared to fight for their
7:26
country well that's the thing I mean
7:28
there are lots of problems with the arm
7:29
forces and you know spending is one of
7:31
them equipment is another but
7:33
recruitment has been a long-standing
7:35
problem and that's not a financial issue
7:37
that's people are not joining in the
7:39
same numbers as they're leaving um now
7:42
you can pick that apart in all sorts of
7:43
ways and and try to understand why they
7:45
don't want to career in the armed forces
7:47
I mean getting shot at is is not is not
7:50
most people's idea of fun although what
7:53
we did see when we were you know
7:54
properly deployed in Afghanistan and
7:56
Iraq was that people joined up because
7:58
that's what soldiers want to do
8:00
um but yes you you have a a younger
8:02
generation who don't look at the world
8:05
in the same way they don't it would seem
8:07
to me I mean I'm saying this is somebody
8:08
in their late 40s as having any kind of
8:11
sense of uh service without immediate
8:15
payback and of of a a sense of you know
8:19
being focused on their own well-being I
8:20
mean you you see it bleeding through
8:22
into the working from home issue if if
8:24
people are saying I can't come into the
8:25
office because it makes me anxious well
8:27
if your office is you know forward
8:29
operating base in in Ukraine with the
8:31
Russians 200 yards away that's going to
8:34
become even less attractive and you
8:35
can't work from home yeah I mean so but
8:39
I think you could say I I I often think
8:41
that this um stereotype of gen Zed as
8:44
kind of um snowflakey woke worrying
8:47
about their mental well-being all the
8:48
time is possibly a bit overblown and I
8:50
think you know if you look how bravely
8:52
Ukrainian soldiers have thought could
8:53
would you necessarily have predicted
8:55
that they would that they would do that
8:56
you know if you if you are facing an
8:58
existential threat I think there's a
9:00
strong chance that people will step up I
9:02
think that that's a fair point I was
9:04
thinking about this earlier um you know
9:05
in 1933 famously the Oxford Union said
9:08
that it would under no circumstances
9:10
fight and die for our country six years
9:12
later they all did yeah um and you know
9:14
the people at that debate in 1933 will
9:16
have been disproportionately people who
9:18
went straight into into battle when we
9:20
were eventually engaged in France in in
9:22
1940 so yeah I think there is an easy
9:25
stereotype and partly it's fulfilled by
9:28
the most vocal parts of Jen said yeah um
9:30
the people who get the most air time and
9:32
partly I think we indulge it ourselves
9:33
because we want an explanation for why
9:36
the world has changed and so older
9:38
people like me and I fully hold my hands
9:39
on to being an older person uh says oh
9:41
it's because the young people don't want
9:42
to do any work or they're scared or
9:44
they're anxious or they're having you
9:45
know a duvet day and I think that's
9:48
simplistic there's a grain of Truth in
9:50
it I'm sure um but also employers have
9:53
got to take a degree of responsibility
9:55
because they've allowed this to happen I
9:57
mean when we've talked about working
9:58
from home there's been a lot of talk
10:00
about you know what will people accept
10:02
what won't they accept if it's in your
10:04
contract you work from the office you
10:06
can tell people to work in the office
10:08
they might leave and that's another
10:09
problem but you know there's been a lot
10:12
of very tentative negotiations about
10:14
what you can and can't ask people to do
10:16
and it seems to me that in the real
10:18
world you have employers and employees
10:20
you want good relations between the two
10:22
but at the same time there's a
10:23
contractual obligation and it's written
10:25
down on paper yeah I couldn't agree with
10:27
you more and I think the other thing
10:28
about jenz I mean you you talked about
10:30
um the idea of payback I do think that
10:33
one of the reasons why perhaps Jen gen
10:35
don't feel so patriotic or like that
10:37
that they maybe that they owe something
10:38
to their country is because their
10:40
economic prospects are so narrow it's so
10:44
difficult to get a house you know your
10:45
your the sort of wealth accumulated by
10:47
older Generations is not you know you're
10:49
not going to have as good a life as your
10:51
parents did um and I think that's a
10:53
major reason for many of their travails
10:55
I think that that is a problem I mean
10:57
we're seeing with with the move from you
11:00
know baby boomers to to Gen X to to gen
11:02
Zed for the first time we've got a
11:04
generation who will be worse off than
11:06
their parents virtually unprecedented in
11:09
history um and what's made it worse I
11:11
think in this country certainly is that
11:13
we've had political parties both
11:15
political parties but the conservatives
11:16
been particularly guilty of this who
11:18
have gone out of their way to reinforce
11:21
the economic security of of older people
11:23
because you know the triple lock on
11:25
pensions is inviable we cannot possibly
11:27
touch that um put
11:29
dementia tax in in 2017 was not an
11:32
unreasonable proposition at base that
11:34
people would pay for some of their own
11:35
social care but you know anything which
11:37
touches on the wealth of older voters
11:39
particularly for conservatives is seen
11:41
as absolutely disastrous and so you do
11:43
have younger people who are are looking
11:45
certainly if you need to work in London
11:47
who are looking at impossibly
11:49
unaffordable Life Choices this brings me
11:52
on to Aon that I wrote this week There's
11:54
a new report out from the center for
11:56
social justice looking into the really
11:58
diminishing prospects particularly for
12:00
young men and it's found that the gender
12:02
pay Gap uh for 16 to 20 24 year old boys
12:06
is actually now reversed women now are
12:07
earning about 10% more than young men
12:10
many of these young men are not in uh
12:14
not in education or training many are
12:15
signed off work with mental health
12:17
problems this is a real problem for this
12:19
upcoming generation and I think it's
12:20
what it's a problem that's going to
12:21
affect both genders ultimately um not
12:24
just because uh having so many people
12:27
economically inactive is terrible for
12:28
our growth prospects but also because
12:31
it's we're seeing it create a political
12:33
divide between young men and women
12:34
particularly with the surge of support
12:36
among young men for reform while women
12:38
are going much more to the left um so I
12:41
think this is a real problem and
12:42
something to be perhaps thinking about
12:43
with International women's day on
12:45
Saturday absolutely I mean we were
12:47
talking about the increasing on
12:48
affordability of property we've
12:50
transformed ourselves into a society
12:51
where to buy property essentially need
12:53
to be a two inome household yeah and if
12:56
men are therefore suffering because
12:58
they're they're earning less or are less
13:00
in employment than women then women are
13:01
affected just as much as men um but no I
13:04
I think there's there's a sense I
13:06
suspect a lot of people think oh but but
13:09
that can't be true because you know men
13:10
have always been you know doing better
13:12
out of the system and of course
13:13
traditionally men have been doing better
13:15
out of the system but that it has
13:17
flipped even slightly is is not
13:19
surprising and if it's supported by the
13:20
data we need to look at that so one of
13:22
the things in the center for social
13:24
justice report some of the uh issues
13:25
that they cite as being particularly
13:27
damaging to men are things like crime um
13:30
men are more likely to be victims of
13:32
crime but also more likely to be
13:33
criminals themselves um it also
13:36
fatherlessness um and uh pornography
13:39
addiction uh men are far more likely to
13:41
watch pornography than women it's it's
13:43
essentially a product that's created for
13:45
male consumers and is there not a point
13:47
here that in those respects men are
13:50
victims of themselves I mean feckless
13:52
fatherless sexual perversion and
13:54
criminality these are male problems
13:56
there is an element of that I mean the
13:58
truth is that violent crime is largely a
14:00
male trait you know women don't commit
14:03
violent crime against one another or
14:04
against men on anything like the same
14:07
scale is vanishingly small um you know
14:09
the number of of female prisoners who
14:10
are there for violent crimes is Tiny um
14:13
and I think yes you you have
14:16
availability of things like pornography
14:17
and increasingly extreme pornography um
14:20
which is is leading to social problems
14:23
but you know we're all in this together
14:25
I think and that's you know in a strange
14:28
way we have to disregard the the gap
14:31
between the sexes in order to solve the
14:33
obvious gap which exists now yeah um we
14:35
we've got to work together because we're
14:36
all going suffer from this yeah
14:38
absolutely and we've all got to work
14:39
together we've got to raise families
14:40
together we've all got to stake in our
14:42
future growth and prosperity so as you
14:44
say we do need to look at where these
14:46
pay gaps exist and where the real
14:48
disadvantage lies you know talking about
14:50
mental health we know that the biggest
14:53
single killer of men under 40 is suicide
14:55
and that's extraordinary you know
14:58
nothing else comes close to Men actually
14:59
ending their own lives and there's an
15:01
awful lot to be unpacked from that um
15:04
but there is I think that political
15:06
divide you touched on um I mean reform
15:09
UK for example have have been very
15:11
successful at doing what the the Maga
15:14
movement in America has done what the
15:15
afd are doing in Germany what to an
15:17
extent the national rally are doing in
15:18
France which is harnessing people who
15:20
are are just unhappy with the situation
15:24
and that's much easier to do than to
15:26
offer Solutions if you just say look
15:28
it's not working for you is it so vote
15:30
for us because we're not the guys who
15:32
have made it not work yeah and a protest
15:34
party um is is very easy to to get off
15:38
the ground it's once you sort of get to
15:40
that next stage where I think reform UK
15:42
are starting to to find it more
15:44
difficult things like their policies on
15:45
on uh Net Zero and climate change where
15:48
they came a little unstuck um you know
15:50
if if you just say to people we feel
15:52
your pain people will vote for you on
15:55
that and you can get a long way with
15:56
that yeah and I think one of the things
15:57
that they're saying particularly young
15:59
men is that you have a voice we hear you
16:01
and you matter U but I think this also
16:03
brings us right back round to uh to
16:06
Trump and musk I think that uh farage
16:08
having thrown his lot in so decisively
16:11
with Donald Trump May well come back to
16:12
bite him this may well be the thing that
16:14
brings reform unstuck because patriotic
16:16
Brits are appalled by his treatment of
16:18
Vladimir zinski I think he is finding
16:21
that you know actions have consequences
16:24
um he clearly traded for a while on his
16:27
his relationship with Donald Trump
16:29
whether it's as close as he claims we
16:31
don't know you know you hear insiders in
16:33
the Trump Circle say we we're not really
16:35
sure who this guy is um but farage talks
16:38
a good game he's a brilliant campaigner
16:40
he's not really a politician at all but
16:42
he's a great campaigner but yes Trump is
16:45
is going to be problematic because once
16:48
you've tied yourself to him he comes
16:51
with all sorts of of issues and he's
16:53
completely unpredictable as well yeah um
16:55
and I think yes you know people looked
16:57
at you know the the the over office
16:59
encounter on on Friday with Trump uh
17:01
vice president Vance and president
17:03
zalinski and I think a lot of people in
17:05
this country will have thought zilinski
17:08
was being you know basically told that
17:10
he wasn't grateful enough and wasn't
17:11
wearing a suit I mean the man has you
17:14
know given away all his money to to his
17:16
country he's under constant fear of
17:19
assassination as is his family and he
17:22
decided and you know brilliant at the
17:24
beginning of the war um that he wasn't
17:25
going to leave Kiev he he said I don't
17:27
need a ride I need ammunition and I
17:30
think that kind of straightforward
17:34
honesty and maybe it goes back to to
17:36
what you were saying about you know uh
17:37
International women's day and the the
17:39
diminution of of masculine values that
17:41
kind of Bravery um in sort of a very
17:44
male bravery just not say that women
17:46
aren't Brave at all but you know sort of
17:47
stereotypically male bravery in the face
17:49
of combat um has has struck a cord with
17:51
British people that's a really nice note
17:53
to end on on valuing the masculine
17:55
quality of bravery and thank you very
17:57
much Elliot for wearing a suit today I
17:59
appreciate it pleasure
18:06
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