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Ron Lawrence: Bad Boy Producer Talks Jay-Z,The LOX, Biggie, Diddy & How AI Will Help Hip-Hop Forever
Sep 2, 2025
From producing classics like Jay-Z’s “Where I’m From” and The LOX’s “Money, Power, Respect” to pioneering AI storytelling, Ron Lawrence sits down with AllHipHop’s Chuck “Jigsaw” Creekmur @ChuckCreekmur break down Biggie memories, Diddy’s vision and why Hip-Hop must control the future of AI before it controls us. Subscribe to AllHipHop on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/allhiphoptv?sub_confirmation=1 Check out more of AHH here on social media: https://allhiphop.com https://twitter.com/allhiphopcom https://facebook.com/allhiphopcom https://instagram.com/allhiphopcom Executive Producers: “Grouchy” Greg Watkins and Chuck “Jigsaw” Creekmur AllHipHop.com, a powerhouse in the Hip-Hop world, was established and brought to life by the visionary CEOs "Grouchy" Greg Watkins and Chuck "Jigsaw" Creekmur. #chuckcreekmur #allhiphoptv #allhiphop #grouchygreg
View Video Transcript
0:04
What's going on world? It's your man Chuck Creekmer aka Jigsaw and I am here with a special guest. He's a producer, a
0:12
a filmmaker, he's a he's a rapper, he's like all these things and now in the
0:19
most current version, he is an AI artist expert. Uh, you know what would you what
0:28
would Ron Lawrence, the the legendary one, call himself right now? At this point,
0:35
I guess I'd be a uh what? AI filmmaker. AI specialist.
0:41
AI filmmaker. AI specialist. Okay. Yeah, this thing is so new. I don't know if I don't even know if they have titles
0:47
for this stuff right now. Yeah, I almost called you Ammon Raw, but that's something for for for a little for in a
0:54
second. Yeah. Okay. But no, seriously, um, you know, listen,
1:01
I obviously, man, I've known your your name all the all the way back.
1:07
But but let's let's start right now. Let's start right now and talk about AI.
1:13
So, so first of all, you have have really hit like sort of like the bullseye with the culture, right?
1:20
Because there's a lot of push back on AI. A lot of people have problems with it. Um, but you seem to create AI that
1:30
people love and I find that genuinely legitimately special. Te tell us a
1:37
little bit about your art. Yeah. Well, my art really it's it speaks to the
1:43
culture. Um, and it's it's through my eyes, how I see it and my experience.
1:50
So, I just felt the need to to tell a story. I looked at AI and I said there's
1:55
something missing. And I wanted to fill that void.
2:01
Okay. Okay. So, um I can't remember the first thing I noticed that you did.
2:09
Uh you know, had something to do with old school hiphop. Um I think turning
2:14
album covers. Exactly. That's that's that's what it was. That was that was the beginning. Yes.
2:19
Okay. Um what made you do that? What made you animate album covers?
2:26
Um, I just found, you know, I I just wanted to try some. Basically, I was
2:31
just messing around with AI. I started off with uh cookie
2:37
cutter apps and then when I got onto the the professional apps, I just wanted to
2:43
make things move and the album covers was one of the first things that I went to, right? But it wasn't anything that I
2:48
just set out to do to say, hey, you know, I'm just going to uh I'm going to create this big masterpiece. It was just
2:55
experimenting and when I did it I was like okay let me um let me test it out
3:02
and I think I had did a piece on I was doing little things first I was and I was sharing them with my friends.
3:09
I was doing I was animating uh characters like kid and play and stuff
3:14
like that and I would send them to them and and um and then I decided to put stuff online.
3:19
I think I did a little piece on salt and pepper. I don't I don't even think they saw it, but it was it was what I was doing was they had
3:25
gotten, you know, they getting inducted into the the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and I had did a little 30 second piece
3:32
on them and I had made the album cover Move. Okay. Yeah. So then I said, "Okay, well, let
3:39
me go ahead and um uh do like maybe three four minute
3:44
segment and put all the album covers together." And I the the album the music of Two Kings in the Cipher. I'm not sure
3:50
if you even realized that, but I did all the instrumentals of the two kings on top album and I put it behind the uh um
3:58
the moving images and the reason why I used that music was because I I didn't want to get because because of the fact
4:04
that I want to write to that music. I knew that I wouldn't get red flag for being three four minutes and that's
4:11
why I chose that. Yeah. Yeah. That's dope. That's dope. Um, have
4:16
have any have any artists or anybody push back on on the representation at all?
4:22
No, I haven't really gotten I mean I've seen people online u you know it's you get a lot of mixed
4:29
reviews. People love it and then you have the u you have the extremists
4:34
that say they talk about the environmental issues involving AI and
4:40
stuff like that. I have this one lady got into my inbox and was just going at me like crazy cursing me out like why
4:46
are you using AI this and that and I was just like yo and then when I read the comments it's
4:53
crazy man you know either most of the people love it but then you have a few that come out
5:00
and say crazy things yeah I I think it is bad it is it is pretty bad for the uh environment not
5:07
not to put that on you it's just to say that the uh people that create these
5:12
centers for that that support it are oftent times doing it in black
5:18
communities or things like that. So sometimes we don't we don't know like it's just something we're doing on our
5:24
computer and we just think it's cool or whatever, but it it is apparently an
5:30
environmental hazard. But I can't sit here and say that I know. But then again, technology is an
5:37
environmental hazard. I mean, it's always been. Yeah. But I think they're targeting us,
5:43
though. Like, I think it's sort of like the water in Flint, you know, it's it's being put in in places that uh are folks
5:53
that are disenfranchised, right? Because again, I'm not I'm not here to I'm not
5:58
here to preach about it because I I literally only know the very basics, right? you know, so
6:04
um yeah, I mean there's, you know, I've always maintained that technology is, you know, maybe two steps ahead and then
6:12
at least one backwards. It just it's just inevitable, right?
6:17
Without question. But, um, you you def like I said, you've definitely you
6:22
definitely struck a cord. Um, do you do you see any folks out there as competition? Are people stealing your
6:28
style or or or or do you think you know were you inspired by somebody?
6:34
Well, I mean I really don't pay attention to what other people are doing. I mean I see people's work,
6:39
right? But I try not to copy anybody. I just do what you know what I feel is
6:45
that that comes to mind. You know what I'm saying? And it just turns into art. Um but I don't really as
6:51
far as competition is concerned if anybody I mean I see people do things
6:56
um and I've seen people yeah I have seen people do try to copy I have you know
7:03
it's what it is. It's flattering. You can't you can't you can't stop it. People are gonna
7:09
they're going to do it. They're going to try. But my goal is just to try to get as much information out there as possible so I could you know just put a
7:17
stamp in the game. It's real early. And it just reminds me of um going back to the early days of hip-hop
7:23
when it was just a wide open field and we were just trying to figure it out, right? I think this is where we are
7:29
with AI. There's so much that you can do with AI. A lot of people don't even realize and with hip-hop,
7:36
right? Yeah. We just have to just get in there and figure it out like anything else.
7:42
Um what's the biggest compliment you've gotten? like who who who jumped in the comments or who reposted that you were
7:50
like, "Wow, so many a lot of people have reposted my stuff."
7:56
Yeah. Um I've seen Dice do it. I've seen um
8:02
Rock Kim. I've seen and I'm getting a lot of people following me too. A lot of big names.
8:08
Yeah. Yeah. Pretty cool seeing that because I'm not much of a social media person. It's not like I be on social
8:14
media all the time. You know what I'm saying? But this right here has gotten me to the point where
8:19
um I pay attention more and my page has gotten so busy that it's not even on my personal page
8:26
anymore. I can't even put a personal pictures. It wouldn't even look right of me putting up, you know, I'm over at
8:31
this spot over here because it's being bombarded with all the uh the AI stuff that I'm doing that I had to create
8:37
another page where I could put my personal stuff on. So, you know, it's just moving.
8:44
Do you have any uh plans, you know, bigger, grander plans? Um a movie, uh I
8:51
don't know. So, I mean, it it there's so much that you can do with this. I mean, commercials, movies,
8:58
you name it. The sky's the limit. Everything that you see out there, AI can replace it and do it.
9:03
And it's going to get to the point where it's going to be AI doing those jobs.
9:09
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, from campaigns, I even did a little campaign for Roz Baraka.
9:15
Oh, yeah. Yeah. He didn't even have to be there. Wow. He just gave me pictures and I just put everything to life. They used it.
9:22
That's crazy. They say Will Smith just got busted. Well, let me allegedly allegedly, let me not use the word
9:29
busted. Allegedly, Will Smith used AI to,
9:35
you know, create a crowd. I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now to see AI is not
9:40
perfect. Not yet. Okay. There's still some flaws and sometimes you can look at
9:46
it and say, "Okay, this is AI." And I seen the crowd because sometimes the the face is a little distorted.
9:53
That's how that's that's the giveaway. Yeah. Right. So when you look at it, you like, "Okay, this is AI." And I think that's
9:58
probably how they figured it out because they I saw uh I saw the the uh the uh it
10:06
was on social media and they were showing the captions of the pictures and stuff and then they did they did
10:11
closeups on the faces and you could see the distortion. So that was the giveaway right there. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy.
10:17
What what Yeah, it's definitely crazy. Um, what what are your thoughts on sort
10:22
of like this, you know, replacing humanity, replacing jobs, replacing
10:29
human beings, replacing the shared experience? Like if, for example, if that crowd was fake, I'm just saying
10:34
allegedly to cover us. Don't want Charlie Mack mad at me. But, um, what if
10:41
that crowd was a full crowd and we were there, you know, and we're we're
10:46
experiencing all as one. Uh you don't get that with AI, you know. Do you do
10:52
you ever feel like this is this is something that's taken over?
10:57
Yeah, I think eventually it will. I think a lot of things will get taken over with AI. Yeah, we saw this at the beginning. I
11:03
mean, if you just go back to the 20th early 20th century, a lot of things got
11:09
taken over with technology. You know, you deal with the farmers and stuff like that and industrialization came in. um
11:16
on the automobile, you couldn't use horses anymore, right? Electricity came in. They stopped using
11:24
the kerosene lights. And that's what technology does. It just it takes away
11:29
jobs. And yes, it does cause pollution. It always has. And um but there's a good
11:35
side and there's a bad side. Yeah. Yeah, but we just had to have to figure out, okay, well, if it's going to if it's
11:41
going to take my job, how do I get behind it so I can create a job,
11:46
right? So, if it's doing my job, well, maybe I could do the prompts to do the job.
11:52
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Uh
11:57
yeah, I've seen a lot of rappers using it a lot now and I I don't always love it, you know, because sometimes I feel
12:04
like uh it's just whack. You know what I'm saying? Like literally, it just looks it
12:10
looks whack. Yeah. I mean, the creativity in terms of, you know, people rhyming and stuff
12:15
like that, they don't necessarily have to be as uh creative anymore to come out with dope raps because it's cheap.
12:23
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Just think about the turntables. When the turntables when um Sorado came
12:29
out, everybody could DJ now, right? So you don't have to have the crazy skills that you once had because Sorado can do
12:35
it for you. So now everybody's a DJ. Even Yeah. So you got movie stars DJing
12:41
because it doesn't take much to do. And this is what happens with technology.
12:46
And yeah, a lot of people don't like it. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, you did you
12:54
recently did something that I thought was dope. I'm an alpha man, so I was looking at this video. I felt like we
13:00
needed to have more alphas in that video. It was awful awful lot of Q dog activity.
13:06
Yeah. Uh, I understand. That's my fault. It wasn't It wasn't intentional.
13:13
It wasn't intentional. It was all good. I try to do as much research as I can in terms of finding photos, but I couldn't
13:20
get and I called friends. they were giving and I and I kept saying, "Look, I need stuff that I I need the nostalgic
13:26
stuff. I need this the old stuff." And they were sending me pictures of like today. And I said, "No, I can't use
13:32
that. I need the old stuff." Right. So, I even went online and it was just
13:37
couldn't find what I needed. Yeah. Yeah. But it wasn't intentional.
13:42
But there's three pictures in there. There are three pictures in there. Okay. A cute dog. We had maybe four or five
13:48
pictures and I was at three, but there was three. It's all good. It's all good.
13:53
You know, you know, I'd like to believe that we were the ones that set it off. So, we you know, we should
14:01
It's all good. But, um I got the Zetas mad at me because they said there was only one picture. Uh
14:06
oh. Yeah. You don't want the Zetas mad at you, bro. I tell you. I can tell you that.
14:12
Was it the Sigma G? It was one of them. They was mad at you. Only got one pick. Right. Right.
14:18
One told me this one cat got in my inbox. He was like, "Yo, you know, this is Yeah, you changed my image. This is
14:24
not me. This is this is the original picture." And then you got and then you got people saying that um
14:32
that um why use AI when you can use use actual
14:38
footage? I got people saying that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's it's definitely like a a a
14:46
dilemma. It's definitely, you know, questions, you know. I mean, I I agree. I mean, look, I I give you a perfect
14:52
example. My dad passed away a long time ago. I just say a very long
14:58
a long time ago. Now, my dad passed away before technology took off at all. At least this modern version. So, I have
15:07
one audio clip of his voice. One clip. Yeah. I have limited pictures. Um, you know,
15:14
we didn't have there weren't cell phone cameras then. You know what I'm saying? So, so when I
15:20
see some of these, you know, more old, you know, these pictures being animated,
15:25
I have that that that clash, you know, that that conflicting brain that says,
15:31
"Man, I would love to hear my dad's voice. I would love to see video of
15:37
him." He was always taking pictures. He was always taking the video. So, he he wasn't in the video,
15:43
you know? So, so then there's that conflict that I have like, man, I wouldn't mind seeing
15:49
my dad like that, you know, and that's where it gets tricky. Yeah, I think there'll be some, you
15:55
know, you got a lot of pictures of your dad, too. I got, you know, Yeah, I got some
16:00
pictures. Yeah, I think they'll be they'll eventually have some type of technology
16:05
where you can actually revive your parents, that makes any sense, through AI and you
16:11
can kind of see them through AI, their voice and everything. And
16:16
yeah. Yeah. That That'd be dope. That' be dope. What do you think is the future? I mean, it's
16:23
moving fast, bro. It's It's moving so fast. Unlike Huh?
16:29
Lightning speed. Yeah, lightning speed. Um,
16:34
it's I don't know the future. I mean, what do you think happens in let's just say five
16:40
years. Let's go. Let's go way out. Let's like like five years is way out. I would say a year. Five years.
16:47
Yeah. You could say a year. A year. A year. I mean, look, I saw what we did last year.
16:53
Yeah. And I was on panels about it last year and now I mean, it's it's so much different even after.
17:00
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of people say it's scary.
17:08
It's it's it's going to shift. It's going to be a crazy shift in in the world. A lot of things are going to
17:14
change. Yeah. And you got to be prepared for it. I think what could you do? Yes, a lot of
17:21
people don't like it, but why fight it? Just figure it out, right? Because it's
17:27
not it's not going anywhere. Well, I I'll I I'll push back a little
17:32
bit. No, figure out what how it's going to work for all hip hop.com. I'm serious.
17:38
Yeah, of course. figure that [ __ ] out because yeah, because it's go it's what it's going to do is going to move your
17:45
platform to another level because if everything is moving in that that direction, you need to get on board
17:51
regardless if you like it or not. Yeah. I I don't want to I don't want to pretend like I'm not on chat GDP or
17:58
what, you know, I'm we're we're I I don't even want to say
18:04
we're not lagging. Huh. There's a lot of things I don't like about AI, but I but I just felt
18:10
that if I can get in there and I can tell these stories, I can help preserve the culture.
18:16
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. But I don't have to like it, but I know I can use it for good.
18:22
Right. I see a lot of [ __ ] online. I'm not even gonna lie. Yeah. That's I didn't like
18:29
Yeah. You know, I see babies talking and all kind of crap and and the way and how
18:34
black people are being depicted with AI. Now we're going back to the we're going back like 70 80 years when we have
18:43
blackface through AI because now you don't know who making these these videos.
18:48
Yeah. And they can, you know, they can depict this any way they want and they could put it online and
18:56
and you know, nobody stopping it, right? Yeah. There's there's a there's a skit
19:02
fat nword chronicles or something. I forget what it is, but it's really heavy set dudes
19:09
and they're at amusement parks or they're eating or they're riding bikes or whatever. And it it it's kind of
19:16
funny, right? But at the same time, the question is who's behind it and who's doing it. Exactly. Right.
19:22
Yeah. I'm like, I don't know. And the thing about AI, right? See, a
19:28
lot of things get and you know, it's a gift and a curse because a lot of things in Hollywood like you can't it gets red
19:36
flags, right? You can't go past the finish line with certain Yeah. And there's certain things they just won't do.
19:41
Yeah. because they don't they may not want to offend people and and they may and also there are things that that
19:47
stories that we may want to be told and they just won't do it. Yeah. Right. Like certain things about slavery
19:54
like if we say, "Okay, we're going to take we're going to tell slavery the right way. We're gonna they they won't
20:00
put it out." Right. But with AI, you can do that and nobody
20:05
can stop you. Mhm. You can tell your stories because no one no because there's nobody red flagging
20:12
you or stopping you from doing it unless you're going through through Hollywood. Right.
20:18
Right. But then again, there's another side of it where they telling wrong information. Right. That's kind of kind of [ __ ] up.
20:25
Yeah. I always worry about algorithms too because uh algorithms can can suppress
20:31
you if you're on a platform like YouTube or whatever or you know pretty much all
20:38
of them can can low-key suppress you. Yeah. You know you in terms of
20:43
information you mean? Yeah. Yeah. And you know AI even does it. Yeah.
20:49
Things that if you're prompting AI won't even prompt it, right? It'll tell you it can't do it.
20:56
Yeah, that's a fact. Yeah. So, that's that's even controlled to a certain extent.
21:01
Yeah. Even on Canva, they they won't do certain things. I've only I think I've
21:07
only encountered it once, but a woman definitely tried to do something with slavery.
21:12
And they said, "Yo, why don't you use this word and that word instead of
21:18
slavery for your book cover?" And I thought that was very odd. I was trying to create black Egyptians and AI
21:24
wouldn't do it. Chad GPG would not do it. Said no, it's going against their Yeah, it goes against their policy. And
21:30
I said, why? And they said it. They said it was the Egyptian government.
21:36
The reason why they couldn't do it. It's crazy. That's definitely crazy. Well, we need
21:44
some of these rich black folks to, you know, go ahead and make their own AI and
21:50
then we can program it. And it's another problem that I have with AI, too. It's the voices,
21:59
right? I mean, I would prefer an African-American voice to go with to
22:04
tell the story about African-Americans, but the VO but it's very limit the
22:10
voices that they have are very limited and then they trash, right? The best voice that I can get is the one
22:16
that I use and then I get a quite a few cats that tell me, "Hey, why don't you use an African American?" And I'm like,
22:22
"Hey, if it ain't broke, don't you know, don't fix it. It's working." Now, is the voice you use Tony Brown? Is
22:29
that true? Yeah, I guess that's Tony Brown. Yeah. Saying, but then,
22:35
you know, he sounds white and then people say it's overused. So, I had to stop using that. Oh, but to me it doesn't really matter. I
22:42
just thought if I can get the point across, it really doesn't matter to me what kind of voice it is as long as the
22:47
the voice is powerful and and it gets a, you know, and it's telling a story. So, I I don't have a problem with it, but
22:53
some people do. Um, yeah, but I I think I think AI needs
22:59
to get better with with more of a variety of voices to choose from.
23:05
Yeah. And good quality. Yeah, definitely. What's your ultimate goal? Do you have one yet or are you
23:12
just still figuring that out? Um, yeah.
23:18
Sky's the limit, man. movies, documentaries,
23:24
what I put on what I put on IG and Facebook, I put out these one
23:30
minute clips, backspin chronicles, and I do it in mind
23:36
of looking further ahead that these one minute the clips can turn into documentaries. Right. Right. So, and
23:42
that's why I do them because everyone every one of those clips tell a story that could either be a full-fledged
23:49
hour, hour and a half series. So, yeah. So, that that's my goal. It's
23:54
one of the goals. Dope. Uh I definitely,
24:00
you know, want to take a moment to talk about your musical legacy. You have time for that? Yeah. Okay.
24:06
Okay. Cool. Cool. You you you know, Two Kings and a Cipher. You guys met at
24:11
Howard, you and D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do D do DTO uh Derek Angeli who we've had in the studio long
24:18
you know interview with him um really cool cat by the way
24:24
crazy cat no pun that's my brother yeah yeah definitely um you know I was I was
24:30
I was listening to y'all today to just kind of refresh and I was like man this
24:36
this I like this music you know what I mean I was like man this is so refreshing. I started dancing and I was,
24:43
you know, just loving the messages and stuff and um it really took me back. I'm glad you
24:50
own it, too, by the way. You know, because I I think, you know, I don't know. I could maybe I'm delusional, but
24:56
I think I don't know, man. I feel like it could come back like right now and be like a fresh a breath of fresh air.
25:03
How do you feel about your legacy as a rapper? Hey, I started off as a rapper. that
25:09
that's all I wanted to do. I came into I came in the game wanting to be a rapper,
25:15
not a producer. I started off as a DJ and that be and that's how I understood
25:20
beats to become a producer because I was a DJ first. You most most DJs become producers.
25:27
Well, I was a rapper term producer and that's because I was a DJ first. Right. Right. But um but no, but for me
25:34
understanding hip-hop, it was important for me to be a rapper.
25:39
Yeah. And going into production, you know, it made me want to do that
25:45
because I wanted to produce people that I admired like, you know, like the L's and the Rocks and, you
25:52
know, these guys are my heroes and I got to produce them and and the reason being is because um
25:59
we didn't get to reach the that level of success as rappers
26:04
and and it wasn't because, you know, we weren't good at it is because that we we
26:11
didn't have to push and the uh um the promotion for for for the uh for the for
26:18
for the album to blow up and and do what it needed to do. And plus, we got caught up in between the whole movement of the
26:24
the the uh NWAs and all that stuff coming in. It was a big transition while
26:30
we were work while we were working on the album. Uh we that that was when that whole movement was going on with ExClan
26:36
and Public Enemy and all of a sudden damn and NWA comes out and it just shifts and just changes everything. And
26:43
for me I felt like okay well um if this is not going to work then maybe I need
26:50
to produce for the cast that I I admire. [Music] So and that's why we started to fill
26:58
fill those lanes and then we moved into production. Yeah. Who was the first person you
27:03
produced outside of yourself? After after Two Kings in the cipher or
27:09
before? After? I think it was Adore.
27:15
Adore. Oh, the white rapper from out of Mount Vernon. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He He passed away, didn't he?
27:22
Yeah, he did. Yeah. Rest in peace, Adore. It was Adore. And it was Ed OG and the Bulldogs.
27:28
Okay. Did a re I think it was a remix for them. Yeah. And then uh then it was
27:34
Positive K. Okay. And then what you produce for Positive K? What song?
27:40
Oh, shoot. I can't remember what I think it's called. It's called Gravy. It was on a it was it was on an independent uh
27:45
label that he had. Okay. Gotcha. And then,
27:50
believe it or not, Rock Kim, believe it or not, the record never came out. Okay. And then Sugar, what's up, Star?
27:58
Oh yeah, that's that's sweet tea. Exactly. Yeah. That was the first one that got,
28:04
you know, got put out there and everybody was like, "Okay, gave us a little bit of notoriety."
28:10
I remember that record. Yeah. And after Sugar, what's up Starc Coy, the remix.
28:17
Okay. And then Tracy Lee, the thing. Okay. Yeah. Shout out to Tracy Leemore
28:23
Howard. By the way, I wanted to go to Howard, man. I'm I I my mom finally apologized
28:29
to me because she wouldn't let me go to Howard. So
28:34
yeah, you missed a lot, bro. Mom's uh don't don't get We have to talk offline. I'm
28:40
talking What year are we talking? 90s. Okay. 91.
28:46
Early 90s. Okay. You would have been in there with probably like um who was that early 90s?
28:52
Uh, Taraji, Anthony Anderson, right?
28:57
I think 89 90 I think. Uh, I think uh
29:04
Marlon Williams. Marlin. Yeah, Maron Williams. Yeah, he was there. Yeah, they were like early like 90 91
29:11
92. My Dukes man. Anyway,
29:19
anyway, Louis was there too. And then yo, a lot of a lot of people was there. I know. Well, um yeah, it's Anyway,
29:27
Howard was the Mecca. It's is it is the Mecca. It's called the Mecca. Bloody. You would have been with the
29:33
Bloody Bas, man. Listen, I I would have I would have I definitely
29:38
would have. Yeah. Shout out to them. Shout out to all the all the alphas out there. I' I've met a few. Quite a few.
29:44
So, why your mom didn't want you go to Howard? She thought DC was too crazy
29:50
and ended up at Dell State which you know when I was there DC was crazy. I'mma
29:57
tell you man. We were um I used to live in this dorm on 13th
30:02
Street. Like I could see prostitutes from out of my window. Oh wow.
30:08
Crazy. The you have pimps. They Yes. Pimps would come out. They would come from Detroit and they would come out to
30:13
um to DC and they would just they would run [ __ ] They have the Jerry Curls and Yeah. 09 with the, you know, the Gator shoes.
30:21
Okay. And then then they would pimp all these girls, all these hoes down on 13th Street.
30:26
Oh man, because we was in the hood. They cleaned all that up. But Howard was smack in the hood back then. We got to see a lot of
30:34
that stuff. And the dudes in DC wasn't really filling us. So we have to fight a lot of the They called them the DC block boys.
30:41
Um, it's crazy time, man. Crazy time. Crack era too. All that was going on.
30:47
Yeah. You you pro if my mom heard what you're saying, she would definitely feel like she made the right decision.
30:53
For sure. Yeah. No, but you wouldn't but as students Yeah. You would have been good.
30:59
I know D State wasn't nothing to sneeze at either. By the way, DC used to fight New York and
31:06
everything you could imagine happened at D State. It was crazy, too.
31:11
Crazy. Definitely. Definitely. Now, you were a part of the Hitman that was a a legendary production group uh for Bad
31:19
Boy. What was your experience like there with that? Like I mean you got I mean you got hit after hit after hit, you
31:26
know? It was crazy. That was a crazy Yo, that was a crazy time, man. That was like It was
31:33
unbelievable. It was incredible. And it was just
31:38
you just waking up and all of a sudden all your records is on the radio. Yeah. But the the struggle to get there
31:46
was the hard part. People think that that these hits came overnight, but it
31:51
was a struggle. Two Kings and Cipher, all that was struggle. All that was
31:57
was that was the building blocks to get to where we needed to be. Yeah. But it took a lot of work,
32:03
you know, and producing records that weren't hits to producing records that were hits, right? And then when we
32:10
started hitting We was just it was just hitting them out the ballpark. Crazy. Left to right, one
32:16
after the other. How much pressure was that? I mean, one thing people don't realize about hits is
32:22
you do one and then you got to do it again. Then, you know what I mean? You got to Yeah. But for us, we weren't
32:28
concentrating on making hits. We were just We were just concentrating on making good records.
32:34
So, it wasn't it wasn't the pressure of making the hits.
32:40
Okay. I think the pressure came for me it was well how many cuts can I
32:47
get on this album right on whose album so how many cuts on anybody's album
32:53
okay so the conver the conversation that I would have with the next how many cuts you got on album I got three well I got
32:59
two well I got four right so we would try to outdo each other to figure out how many records we had on everybody's
33:04
album so that was the competition that was the pressure but um as far as the hits was concerned
33:10
They were just coming. But it's not like we were trying to for me, I mean, I
33:15
wasn't trying to make hit records. I was just trying to make good music. Yeah. And they just happened to come out to be
33:20
hits. I didn't know they were going to be hits. You just don't know because records that
33:25
you thought were going to be hits didn't come out as hits. So, I just concentrated on just making
33:31
good records. And how was it working with Diddy at that time?
33:37
Uh, it was a learning experience. You know, I learned a lot
33:42
just working with the crew and bouncing off each other and, you know, just getting um, getting
33:50
cues from him and, you know, poets from him and so forth. Um, he had a certain
33:55
way of how he wanted the production to sound. Uh, and we have to follow that. I came
34:02
in, I had a I had a grungy sound. I had my my stuff was very soundtracky
34:08
before I came to Bad Boy. He didn't want that kind of sound. So, I had to switch it up.
34:14
Right. Every producer in Bad Boy had a certain had a certain
34:20
flavor and he looked for it for each of us for certain things that we could do best.
34:26
You put it all together and it comes out to one sound. Yeah. What's what what's your favorite
34:32
track you produced? Do you have one? I mean, I know that's a
34:38
crazy question. That's like picking your favorite kid or something. Nah, to be honest, I really don't have a favorite song. I really don't have a
34:44
favorite track. Um,
34:49
it's probably between Money, Power, and Respect and Where I'm From.
34:54
Okay. The one by Jay-Z. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is that the one that's in Rolling Stones Top?
35:01
Yeah. Yeah. And if you listen to that record, it's very soundtrack driven.
35:07
Right. Right. And that's something that I did outside of that. Right. Right.
35:12
It's a sinister sound and that's that's usually the type of music I like to do. Right. Got you.
35:19
What about Biggie? Did you did you have a relationship with Biggie?
35:24
I didn't really get to know Biggie as well. Mhm. Um because I came in in in 96.
35:33
Okay. He died in 97. Gotcha. I didn't really get to bond with him like that, you know. I knew him, but we
35:38
weren't like great friends. Yeah. But it was more on business as far as uh
35:45
you know Yeah. me giving him tracks and him ramen on them and seeing in the studio and stuff
35:52
like that. Yeah. What about what about that period of time, man? you know, I was not in the
35:58
game. I was not in the industry at that point. Um, I was, you know, a little
36:04
later, but I had the aspirations by then. And one thing I felt um very very
36:13
strongly was this is crazy. You know, it was Tupac, it was big, it felt like East
36:20
versus West. Um, it was insanity to me.
36:25
and and I was an outsider at that point. Um almost to the point where I didn't really want to be in the game or I I
36:33
definitely didn't want to go to LA. Like I had not traveled to LA by that time in my life.
36:38
Um what what but you seem like a more quiet reserve person. What what was your
36:44
position um in the midst of all of that happening? I came to the studio, I did my work and
36:52
I was out. Yeah. That's how that's how I got down, right? I wasn't, you know, I partied. I went to
36:58
I went to the clubs and did all that stuff, but I wasn't into all that all the other things. I wasn't involved with
37:04
none of that. So, I didn't get I didn't get caught up in none of that nonsense. Yeah. And then we tried we tried to get away
37:09
from it. We moved to another um country to um to
37:15
produce records. We went out to Trinidad for about a good month or so to get away from all of what was going on at the
37:21
time because we wanted to concentrate. We did that.
37:27
But as far as all the the extra stuff that was going on, I didn't even go out
37:32
when they they had that at the time when they had the clash and Bad Boy had that clash with uh with
37:38
with Death Row. I think it was some was it Soul Train Awards or something like that? So uh Source Awards. It was out in LA.
37:46
Damn. Yeah. Soul. Yeah. Soul Train. Yeah. I didn't even do Yeah. I wasn't
37:51
involved in none of that stuff. Yeah. Anybody tell you anybody that knows me will tell you your Ron? You should just
37:58
go in there, do his beats, and he was out. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, how close are you to
38:05
your That's just what it was. Yeah. Just a job. I got it. What What now? Now you chose the you know the name
38:13
Amen Rah you know what you know what made you pick that name
38:18
like what what what were you who were you I should say at that time in your
38:24
life. Yeah. Well that came from being in Howard being conscious being around certain
38:29
people that enlightened me. Yeah. You know I come from that cultural background
38:36
prophet said nation nation of Islam and all that stuff. Um but coming at how it exposed me to even more
38:42
and um I was just intrigued by the by the knowledge. We had this bookstore called Pyramid Books. Nice to live
38:49
there. And you know I picked up the autobio biography of Malcolm X
38:55
and found out that he lived a couple of houses away from me growing up in East
39:02
Queens. I'm reading the book and I'm seeing the address and I'm like yo this dude lived on my block. Yeah. That that blew me away totally.
39:09
Yeah. And then I picked up Malcolm X on Afroamerican history
39:15
and I started learning about Kenneth and I was like, "Wow, y'all this is crazy." Yeah.
39:20
Yeah. And then I picked up Tony Browder and I started learning about Alan Rod
39:26
and the Unseen Force of the Rising Sun. It's I just got immersed into all that stuff. I just fell in love with the history,
39:32
man. Yeah. Yeah. I I think a lot of us did. I wanted to drop metaphys physics in hip
39:38
hop. Nobody else was doing it. Right. Right. Nobody was talking about pontio clan. Nobody was talking about melanin and all
39:45
that stuff. We were the first ones to do it. Yeah. That's dope. That's dope. I I
39:52
maintain Okay. Okay. Let me not say what I maintain because you know, but I'll
39:57
say this. You referred to it in WA. It just seemed like um when that movement
40:03
came in, respectfully, everything changed everywhere, including
40:09
New York. And um it always confused me as to how we got sort of lost in that in
40:17
the gangster rap, quote unquote, gangster rap sort of music. um when when
40:22
there was such a rich richness to the culture before that, you know, you had
40:29
just ICE KRS1, you know, at least the criminal vi criminal-minded version and
40:36
others before NWA or at least at the same time.
40:42
But after them, it seemed like everything changed and you it almost washed away consciousness.
40:47
Yeah. It wasn't cool any It wasn't cool to be conscious anymore. I used We used to get ridiculed after a
40:53
while. That wasn't cool. Everybody wanted to curse. Everybody wanted to, you know, call their women hoes and
40:58
[ __ ] And that was a cool [ __ ] That's what everybody wanted to do and that's what the record companies wanted to go after.
41:06
Yeah. So, we was we were looked as being corny. It didn't work.
41:12
Yeah. It's kind of sad, but it is. It's It's Huh. Can't beat them. You join them on the
41:18
production side. And they should call They should call them They should call them They should
41:23
call themselves NWAI cuz I thought the producer for the cast was doing this [ __ ] the opposite [ __ ] that we was
41:30
doing. Yeah. Right. Right. Gave them the hits. Crazy. Right. Right. That's funny. That's
41:35
crazy. Um, what are your thoughts on music now in general?
41:42
Um, yeah. I like I like I like a lot of it and there's some of the stuff that I don't like.
41:47
I appreciate I appreciate the Kendricks and the Drakes and the JCO, all the lyricists. I
41:53
appreciate all of them. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, any
42:00
I like I even like some of the the production to be honest. Yeah. Who Who's your favorite producer
42:06
or I mean aside from yourself? Aside from your crew? Nobody in your crew. Can't say that to somebody outside of
42:12
your crew. Larry Smith. Oh, Larry's. Oh, man. Rest in peace.
42:20
He's the un um Oh my god. I wish I was able to meet him, man. And the reason why I like Larry Smith
42:26
was because of the quality of his production. I'm a quality dude. Like I I I I love quality, you know? I
42:34
get it. You know, the 30 sound and all that stuff in hip-hop. I love that too. But I'm a quality type, too. I just
42:39
love, you know, clean sne.
42:46
Yeah. I just love Larry's production. I just thought he was dope. He was ahead of his
42:51
time. Right. You You could do a documentary on Larry Smith.
42:58
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That I could do. Even if it's a short doc.
43:04
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Um, during the 80s, I think I think hip-hop the
43:10
production on the production side, I think hip-hop regressed during the 80s in terms of quality.
43:18
We started with Larry and then when when sampling came in
43:24
sampling really it it dumbed down the production
43:29
quality wasn't there throughout the 80s and it started then it started building back up right in the
43:37
90s it started to get better because then we started incorporating but you know a lot of it had to do with
43:44
the bit rate in the sampler capture was using SP12s and the uh the bit rate was very very
43:53
low. So the sampling the quality sample quality was bad, right?
43:58
Production quality wasn't was kind of dull, right? And then it came out with 40 4K sampling with the MPC60. The
44:05
quality started to get better throughout the 90s. Then we also
44:11
incorporate different sounds, drum machine sounds to, you know, high hats and stuff to kind of brighten it up.
44:17
Yeah. Um, then we had the Dr. Dres and Premiere. Oh, Premiere. Boom. That's
44:23
another one. That's my man to premiere. Yeah, I think
44:28
for the 90s I go with Premiere. Okay. Did y'all ever have any beef with cast
44:34
like say like the Track Masters or anything like you know I don't know as a Hitman as a collective felt, you know,
44:42
there were similar. Yeah. I don't think we've ever had beef with anybody production as I mean I don't know I've
44:49
never had beef with anybody. So yeah, I can't speak for others. Yeah.
44:54
Yeah. Yeah. That's dope. That's dope. What do you What are your thoughts about AI and music? How how about that? Because AI
45:00
and music is is a different argument, right? Like it's it's it you know,
45:08
[ __ ] I would hate to see I'll be honest with you. I haven't dabbled with AI in music.
45:13
I haven't even gotten there yet. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't in termed,
45:19
right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, across the board. I mean, I I'll give you an example, and this is this is kind of
45:25
crazy, right? Like, but the other day, uh, I came across this mixtape. It's
45:30
Eminem, right? It's a whole mixtape of Eminem, but it's it's actually all AI.
45:35
It's AI generated Eminem mixtape. That's crazy, huh?
45:41
That's crazy you said that because I was just talking to a producer a while ago
45:46
and and he's telling me how he uses AI. says shops his records
45:52
using AI. Like what he does is he'll take if he wants to shop a record for Eminem, he'll make the beat and then
46:00
he'll AI Eminem's voice on top of and he he'll write rhymes
46:05
right as Eminem and he'll sell the beat to you know I'm just using that as an example. Yeah, as example you this is
46:13
the song and Eminem could hear himself on the voice on the beat rhyming with the flow. So this is what Cats is doing
46:19
now. That's how they selling beats. That's crazy, right? I'm not even mad at that because that's
46:25
giving him proof of concept for what it would sound like. Yo, and here's the crazy thing. And if
46:31
it's dope enough, the artist may be like, "Yo, just put it out. Let me just take the record. I don't have to do the
46:36
vocals. You can just put it out like that." I draw the line there. I draw the line there. We want M the Rainers raps.
46:43
I know. I know. That's where I had the problem with the AI Eminem. I know. Okay.
46:49
Yeah, but that that would be kind of whack. that would be. But what about um uh
46:55
like cast like Benny Seagull and um doc if their voice is like messed up and
47:02
then they just use AI to they they'll write the rhymes but they can they can train their voices
47:09
based on old content like they masters of their album strip strip the music
47:16
take the vocals and then train their voice and then come back and put it on top of what they've written. And then
47:23
you get Doc from the N from the 19 from 1989 shining
47:28
like it's in 2025. Like that's definitely the you know that's what
47:35
that's what uh Beanie Beanie did it. Beanie's already doing it. They just announced a joint album with Jakiss
47:41
Beanie Seagull and Jada Kiss. And he's using AI. I I didn't even read it. I just know he is because he's already
47:47
dropped a song with it. So, it's already happening. Doc, I don't know what he's
47:52
up to because he I don't know. He's not I would imagine
47:58
he should he should be a perfect candidate, but he hasn't released anything. Not that I know.
48:03
But, but that being said, you know, I think everybody universally agrees that
48:09
Doc and and Beanie Seagull are exceptions to the general rule. Like,
48:15
yo, doc's pin is crazy, bro. Like when I first met him, man, I almost cried, bro.
48:21
It was like a damn out of body experience. It was like this dude. He writes for Does he write for Dr. Dre?
48:28
Yeah, he does. He did. He definitely did. I think he still might, but you know, there's nothing like the artist
48:35
himself, uh, especially on on that level being, you know, respected as the one. I
48:42
I know he's respected, but you know, if not for that accident, what if type
48:48
thing? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It have been totally different. Yeah. Yeah.
48:55
NWA might have been different, right? Because maybe he would have balanced it out. He didn't hardly even curse. Like
49:00
he was, you know, you see Texas. Let's talk about this cursing thing because I always hear people say, "Ra
49:06
Kim, he's never cursed and this and that." Nobody cursed back in the 80s.
49:14
So Rock is a product of the 80s. Those rappers didn't curse.
49:19
Yeah. Right. So it's not like he single-handedly is the one that didn't curse. None of them really curse. The
49:25
first time I heard a curse on the record was was Lahi Dotty. Right.
49:30
That was the beginning when he said, "What's your wrinkle [ __ ] I can't be your lover." Right. I was like, "Oh, what the hell is that?"
49:37
Like yo. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, that was the beginning. And then came
49:45
I probably would want to say uh Two Laugh Crew. Yeah. Oh, that album was crazy. I was just
49:51
like, "Yo, these dudes these dudes is mad wicked with this." You're right. And then
49:57
Just Ice was pretty crazy, too, back in the day. Yeah, he was definitely rappers weren't
50:03
cursing like that. That was I mean, if you look records Yeah. all the 80s stuff.
50:09
Very rare. I remember uh Rock Camp, huh? It wasn't just Rock Camp.
50:16
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely not. Definitely not. Well, man, I just want to say thanks for pulling up, man. It's It's a
50:22
good It's a good conversation and I'm glad you're ahead of it because, you know, we need someone from the culture
50:28
uh in this new world that is formulating so fast. And it's good that someone's
50:35
got responsibility and integrity in mind. Um, a lot of folks do not,
50:42
but if hip hop's going to embrace this, you know, I feel like we have to have
50:47
some rules for AI and and and obviously there are no rules anymore. So,
50:53
right, that's a whole another part of Yeah. you. We just have to find a lane
50:59
and we have to we have to come in there and and and and and make good use of it.
51:05
Yeah. We already know what AI is. Yeah. Come in there and figure it out. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff that you can do
51:12
with AI as far as hip-hop and our culture is concerned. So, if you do see stuff that's [ __ ]
51:19
up, find a lane to make good of it.
51:24
Yeah. All right. Any of the final words? That sounded like final words right there. That was the final word. Yeah.
51:31
Thanks a lot, brother. I appreciate you. Yes, sir. All right.
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