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Adventures in Movies! Quick and Dirty: Where have all the good westerns gone?
Aug 15, 2024
In this clip from Adventures in Movies! Blake, Danny, and Nathaniel talk about the past, present, and future of westerns. At one time, the genre was on of the most popular in Hollywood. They still do come out on a semi regular basis, but they have nowhere near the drawing power they once did.
The three talk about the lack of good westerns, why they seem to have been in decline, and what they enjoy about them. This leads to a discussion on John Wayne, the history of film, and the importance of special effects today.
The full episode of Adventures in Movies! can be found on iTunes and Spotify
ITUNES: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/adventures-in-movies/id1448463465
SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/7MBES3IIhgcQESSFWOo766
Adventures in Movies! is hosted by Nathaniel Muir, Blake, and Danny. You can find Nathaniel on Instagram at nathaninpoortaste. Danny can be found on Twitter @default_player and on Instagram at default_player. Blake can be found on Twitter @foureyedhorror and on Instagram at foureyedhorror. You can reach us personally or on Twitter @AiPTMovies.
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0:00
All right, guys
0:09
So I've spent the last few sleepless nights going through kind of an old catalog of movies I like to watch
0:16
And I'm a Western guy. I like Westerns. I've brought it up a couple times on the show
0:21
I honestly don't know how you guys feel about Westerns. But in watching some of these, and the one that I guess that kind of started my mind
0:30
rolling down this path was I watched a movie called Rio Grande, which Western fans will know
0:36
that's a John Wayne, Morino, Hara, 1950, old 1950s when this came out. And I guess my point
0:44
yeah. And so, well, my point in bringing this one up in particular is, is John Wayne
0:50
Marino Hara, those were like the leading man, leading woman in Hollywood at the time, not to mention
0:56
the other cast of characters that is in this, Ben Johnson, I think Harry Carey Jr. is in this
1:03
But the major stars of Hollywood were in this Western, and it's kind of your boilerplate, you know
1:11
cavalry fights Indians, Indians kidnap kids. Cavalry saves kids from Indians kind of feel
1:18
And kind of generic, yeah. I mean, you'd say that's kind of generic. But again, leading man, leading woman
1:23
this was obviously a big Hollywood thing, Hollywood production. And it got me thinking
1:27
I was like, wow, you really don't see the leading. guys. And now there are some exceptions, obviously. But you don't really see a lot of the leading people
1:35
jumping to do Westerns anymore. So it just got me thinking. And so let me get a feel from you guys
1:42
each, Pat and Danny. What are your thoughts on Westerns? Did you grow up with them? Do you like them
1:48
What do you feel? Very good question. Very good question, actually. Westerns are, so I'm not a
1:55
genre person, I guess. But growing up, you know, as a kid, you're attracted to comedy, sci-fi
1:59
horror cartoons, whatever it is that you like. And Westerns was actually
2:04
at the bottom of my list. I was not a fan of Westerns at all
2:08
I just didn't like Shane or Waggonquin. Bonanza. My mom would watch it all the time
2:16
Yeah, I did not like it at all. I actually did. I didn't like Westerns
2:21
And I would, in defense of Westerns, I would pretty much avoid them. So I never really got
2:27
a good, I saw the ones that pretty much my mom would to steal a line from daddy
2:32
and my mom would force me to watch otherwise I would avoid them every chance like it
2:37
until 94 95 maybe well that that was one of the things
2:45
that turned it around but before I saw Tombstone I saw Unforgiven
2:49
And when I saw that and I don't know why I watched it
2:53
because it has to be Clint Eastwood because of the because of Clyde
2:57
so he had a lot of good he had good will Clinties would build up some goodwill with me
3:02
because of which way but loose and all that So I gave Gene Hackman's in it
3:07
I gave it I gave it a shot and holy shit That's still one of like the best movies I've ever seen
3:12
Now I actually have to think about it That might be the best Western I've ever seen
3:16
Whereas before it was undoubtedly the best Western I've ever seen So yeah
3:20
Long answer to your question I was not a fan at all
3:25
At all But now you're not so in you're more inclined to watch one now than ever
3:30
Absolutely. I've seen, you know, I never saw the, I never saw the man with no name trilogy before that because they were always on TBS and stuff, but I just, you know, Western didn't give them a chance
3:42
And then later on, you know, I was like, oh shit, this is, you know, Clint Eastwood
3:46
I loved Unforgiven. You watch, you know, you watch the first part and you're like, wow, this is good
3:50
Watch second one. You're like, this is really good. Then you start watching, you know, the original Django and all that stuff
3:55
And you're like, this stuff is pretty good. There's a lot there. There's a lot there. Danston? What about you
4:01
Yeah. So I think we've had this conversation so many times. And I really, and I, and I really have to blame my dad on this because he did force me to watch a lot of this, like a lot of these movies
4:12
But I also feel because, like, Mexican cinema does have. Ooh, yeah. Lots of Westerns
4:19
Yeah, a lot of Westerns. I was going to say a tinge, you know, like those were movies that I kind of watch
4:25
But the ones that like my dad really made me watch like again we we talked about like John Wayne and in Clean Eastwood like my dad forced me to watch like the man with no like trilogy
4:36
And it was this thing that kind of, like, made me, like, we had, my mom had to do an assignment for, for college
4:44
So she had to watch Unforgiven Tombstone. So these were movies that, like, where Westerns were just like a class, how to kill him then
4:53
I think it was, like, an ESL class. because I remember also watching shit
4:57
what's his name Richard Gere was in a not a cowboy it was like
5:03
Urban cowboy? No not urbane oh urban cowboy God. Judge a multi
5:07
Yeah, no but shit it was like a first night or something like that
5:11
I don't remember what it was but it was like it had to do with like tropes like so
5:15
novelization tropes like so you had fantasy you had westerns so these were things that my mom
5:21
had to like I guess learn a way to speak English via fantasy
5:25
fantasy and westerns but uh yeah how often does your mom use the word partner
5:31
not at all not at all does she tell you to get a lot yeah yeah she told you i don't think she did
5:40
well in that class okay okay yeah but i you know like thinking of like all-time like westerns
5:48
like i you know true grit is oh yeah like which one the new one yeah see that's like i feel like if
5:55
We're going to like things that I really popped up into my like like stratosphere like the remakes
6:00
the both remakes like 3-10 of Yuma and true grit. Those are like things that I'm like, this is what modern Western should be
6:09
And there's nothing like that because it's just sad. So yeah, I feel like we get a really, really good one like every five years or so
6:17
Like there is. And so that's what. So I love hearing those those stories because I hear
6:24
I also like my parents like force me to watch a lot of Westerns growing up but I I really quickly got on board. I was I was a super big fan. But so it brings up a good point in to say, you know, are there a lot of new stories to be told with these things? We've seen a lot of the good stories. And like I said, it takes about five years before you get another one. Yeah, why do you think that is? You think there's just like too much, is there not enough like meat on that bone or how do you feel about it
6:54
that. I think it's kind of like what you, well, you alluded to it. So, um, Rio Grande, you said
7:01
you saw it, you saw it in 1950. I'm no, I'm no film expert. You saw, it came out in 1950
7:07
It came out in, I, I'm no film expert, but I like to play one on this show
7:12
You too. In, uh, in 1950s old Hollywood, right? You have your big stars, like you said
7:18
the big stars, big producers, the stories were pretty simple, but you didn't need to be overly complicated
7:23
It was the good guys versus the bad guys. There's whatever the central plot is
7:27
whether it's protecting the town, winning the girl, getting across America, whatever
7:31
And that was cool. Heroes want to look like heroes, the villains want to look like that. Yeah, well, the white hats, the black hats
7:35
all that good stuff. It wasn't until 20 years later, right? 1968, 69, when you get like the graduate
7:41
Easy Rider, Splendor in the Grass, all that good stuff. That's when you start to see, you know
7:45
different types of stories, different types of actors and stuff like that. But between, whatever, 1919 and 1960s
7:53
That's a lot of years And that's a lot of Western So there's there's I think with the Western it's
8:00
There are it I think it's like so much because it's you know
8:04
It's a classic American tale And if you want to really like not say a classic American tale
8:08
It's a classic good guys versus bad guys And at the end chances are you are going to feel good
8:13
You are. It might be super violent or just might end with you know
8:17
Everybody getting married to the person they want to get married to But it will end on a happy note
8:22
I think now to tell a more engaging story, things do have to be a little deeper
8:28
The characters have to be a little more fleshed out. The conflict has to be maybe doesn't necessarily have to be a little more multi-layered
8:34
but it can't be as simple as it was before. And I mean, genres come and go
8:39
I mean, we'll talk about true crime later, but I mean, gangster movies used to be a huge, for decades
8:44
and they just, they don't have the same clout they once did. I would argue that the spy thriller has kind of gone down a little bit
8:52
But Westerns is just one of those genres that they're just musicals
8:55
We talked about that They just aren as popular as they were before But like you said every few years someone will do something amazing So we get you know the true grit remake or we get unforgiven
9:07
Open range, man. Open range is a movie that's like a lot of people describe it
9:11
It's slow. You know, oh, it's slow. Well, no, it's character development
9:15
Yeah. They're actually, you're actually getting to know these characters. So when the end comes, which is anything but slow, you understand exactly why they do what they do
9:24
and I appreciate the shit out of that movie that's a super good movie
9:30
but again came probably five years before after the one previous to it
9:34
that made me feel that way I love that movie open range yeah so good
9:40
so I think so it's a weird duality that I think movie go movie goers
9:47
want like you you want like the action paste movies like and I'm going to name
9:54
all terrible movies that have come out in the last couple of what 10 years we had lone ranger we
9:59
had magnificent seven remake we had caboos versus aliens like all these things that like like they're
10:05
they're flops in a way like there's no heart if you want characters like lone ranger you you
10:11
have a Americana at its best and you somehow muck it up you know like how how how can you do that and
10:21
you know something that so 1950s is such a golden era and stuff like Pat
10:26
was talking about you know the musicals the spy thrillers that's like that was
10:31
like at its height you know like everything was at its time like musicals
10:34
were so big during like the 19 what I would say 40s
10:39
yeah to a certain time like it it does die out and getting like best
10:47
like you know a good musical like within every five years or a good Western
10:50
I feel like as the audience we're changing so much, especially like with like you have the golden age of TV still at its
10:59
at its height. I think we want this drawn out. And I think that's why when you talked about Open Range is like
11:04
that is a perfect movie. Because you have the character development that you get in, you know
11:10
what is it like two hours, I think? Two and a half hours. Yeah, something like that
11:15
You know what? And I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, no. Go ahead. I was going to say it and it may have something to do that
11:20
were a little bit further away from the idea of frontierism. Maybe that might have some
11:26
But then again, you know, people still do enjoy medieval and fantasy type stories
11:31
But then again, those lean a little more towards those are less, I don't know, localized and they're a little more fantastic
11:38
So I don't know. Right. No, well, and I think that kind of gets to my next point, exactly what you're saying, is, like, to do a good Western
11:46
Like, and I've watched some of these, like, kind of cut rate, like, modern Westerns that are on. Amazon or whatever. And there's a look about them that makes them, immediately pulls you away
11:56
And I would say that the cost to make an actual, a Western that is times period specific
12:02
so where everybody looks grizzled and the clothing looks old and the, and the leather looks right
12:06
And, you know, there's no tire tracks on the road. And you know what I mean? Like, it takes a whole
12:13
lot to do an actual Western production. Like Deadwood, they killed doing Deadwood because it was expensive to make
12:19
and it wasn't doing that well, you know what I mean? And so to do a sci-fi story where you get to just invent some cheap costume to wear
12:27
that's much easier to do. You know, so I think there's a whole aspect of like to do a good Western costs a lot
12:34
Plus nowadays, I think you kind of got to get a big name to get any kind of buzz
12:38
And do they want to do that anymore? I don't know. I think the money aspect, unfortunately, we're going to talk about the holy dollar for the rest of the year
12:45
the money aspect to making a good Western and also I have on here
12:51
they don't do well overseas so you're taking a risk in hoping that you get a domestic
12:58
a really good domestic return and I think that's just that's really hard
13:01
to do for a studio not to say that they can't be done
13:05
I would even say was it there will be blood that's basically a Western you know what I mean
13:09
and a Western yeah and one perfect production perfect production but if you think
13:15
about it how much money did that movie cost to make it must have been super expensive
13:19
you know even with what limited space that they did so you know i think that's all got to be
13:23
taken into consideration with uh where the westerns where where have they gone you know you make a good point about the overseas market and the cost of them because there was a point I mean and this I don know as much firsthand but based on the jokes that were around in the 70s
13:39
obviously Westerns and Cowboys were incredibly popular because there's the jokes about, you know, tourists
13:45
Like the first thing I want to do is get a cowboy hat or people go to a foreign country and people are wearing, you know
13:50
chaps and cowboy boots and stuff like that. the cost yeah that is that can be kind of that can make things a little more difficult but um and i think
13:59
you're right i think because now people think okay i have all this money why would i make a simple
14:04
western when i can make this big you know when i can make hobbs and shaw too why should i make
14:12
something with a stage coach and horses even though the better story might be with the stage coaches
14:18
and horses i think a lot of it is yeah let's spend the money on the fast cars
14:22
and the awesome special effects because people overseas will prefer that to see the dude in the cowboy hat
14:30
Actually, that was a very, very popular thing, and I don't see any reason why it couldn't be again
14:35
The only thing is they do have to have that engrossing story. Like, I don't know the numbers exactly off the top of my head
14:42
but I'm sure Django did well. There will be blood. I mean, quickly quickly
14:47
Hayful eight, yeah. It's awesome. Yeah, hatefully. That's a great example
14:51
I feel like it And it's just, I'm going to echo what Blake has said
14:56
I don't think it needs to have a good, like, it has to have leads, like really good leads
15:00
But also the director has to like have a love for it. You can't just have, oh, I agree
15:05
Yeah. You just can't have like a person that's like, well, yeah, okay, I'll do this and just not do anything for the genre
15:12
Like I feel like it needs to either change the, like the Cohen brothers, you know, change the whole tone of true, true grit
15:20
And it just led to like the whole like modern or neo like I guess a modern Western because even then like we have like neo-Westerns I guess like the ones that are now in our time but they're still considered Westerns like no country for old man or hell or higher hell water
15:39
Or like Yellowstone or one of those shows. Exactly. Yeah. So I don't know
15:43
Long Meyer. Just to hide. Yeah. So I mean there's still a kick for it
15:50
I don't think it's going to be... I'm ready to saddle up, boys. Give me a Western
15:54
You bring up a good point, Danny, and it kind of goes back full circle to what Blake was saying about
16:01
They had the biggest stars back then. I think somewhere along the line
16:05
and I don't know who started it, maybe Spielberg or Lucas or Coppola back then
16:09
but I think somewhere along the line, Hollywood became more about the directors than the actors
16:15
because back in the day, it was all about having Rock Hudson and Dora's Day in the movie
16:19
Now it's about, okay, I got Steven Spielberg attached to this. It's more about Stephen Spielberg than Ryan Gosling nowadays
16:27
Like that's just the way the... Dude, it's hilarious. Think about it. The only movies that have gotten like all the big actors in one place, think about it
16:35
comic book movies. That's where... And why? Because those are what people spend billions of dollars on
16:41
And it kind of goes to show that, okay, well, it kind of shows two things. Yeah, like we were talking about, special effects are very important
16:47
but they're also simple stories of good against evil. I mean, people don't need the stories to be that complicated
16:55
Right. So, I mean, yeah, I think, and I think now that I'm a little bit older
16:59
and even though the old, the westerns, I'm not a John Wayne fan still to this date
17:04
though I can't appreciate a lot of those Westerns from a, but now being an adult, I would love to see more Westerns come out
17:13
like good Westerns I would like to seek. I'd be much more willing to see them. I mean, I'd rather see a good Western than another damn teenage sex comedy
17:23
Dude, when Westworld was in the West? Dude, it was really good
17:27
So good. There's this comic book called East of West. Oh, yeah
17:33
It was so, like, Western specific. And then it went, like, this whole, like, post-apocalyptic turn
17:41
And I was like, no, you were so good. You were so good. American vampire, bro
17:46
American vampire. I know. So there's tinge of Western out there. It's just for some reason
17:53
they have to add some sort of sci-fi element to it. Yeah, and then when they do that
17:57
you get Cowboys v. aliens, which is an incredibly big disappointment. But, you know
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